Razlaw, I can count on you to enjoy this! I was sitting around the shop one day (probably fuming over some generic "B&O is for rich people with more money than sense" thread) and thought to myself, "Where are all these stupid rich people I keep hearing about?" I know that there is a vein of folk wisdom that runs through the populous that anyone successful is there by accident, nepotism, etc., but that is rarely born out by fact. As much as we think that people more successful than us have somehow stumbled or schemed their way into this position of status, there is likely something that they possess that we do not, be it talent, drive, ambition, or otherwise.

So how is it that we attribute such stupidity to them? In psychology we refer to it as the Fundamental Error of Attribution. It's what makes us blame the golf club or the wind for a poor shot when our own abilities are really to blame. It relates to the inborn condition to reduce cognitive dissonance which, in this case, takes the form of our natural notions of self worth finding themselves at odds with objective reality. In laymen's terms, we are sore losers!

Now, when something is well beyond our ability, it causes little or no cognitive dissonance when we cannot achieve it (i.e. dating a supermodel, solving a famous math problem, walking on the moon). However, when something is just outside of our locus of control, our inability to achieve a goal or perform a task stands directly at odds with our notions of self worth. (i.e. dropping a dish, missing a put, missing a promotion, etc.)

Since Bang & Olufsen is partially within our grasp or just outside of it, it is natural, psychologically speaking, that our inability to have it all makes us squirm emotionally. If a Bang & Olufsen TV were $100,000, we might still argue about its qualities, but there would be far less passion behind it. We would be arguing its merits the way we would argue over the Mona Lisa; as though personally attaining it is not a component of the dialog.

Not being able to afford a $20k television is not an inherent value judgement on anyone, just as failing to marry Scarlett Johansen (my personal choice) does not make me feel small or feeble in any way. However, when I fumble a pick-up line at a bar with a woman who is, in my view, a peer, I feel like I've really fouled something up and my night will be ruined.

Summing it up, I chalk a lot of the brick throwing up to pure psychology. Rich people, on the whole, are not stupid. There has to be an allowance that people more successful than us may know more about certain things, or at the very least have different (and equally valid) demands. 

(that's the most I've used my psych degree in years!) 

TripEnglish:

Sorry, 355f, but missing the point is your department. Reducing a television to pure picture quality ignores the complex operating environment of modern video systems. Superb sound and single remote operation have existed in the B&O world since we first connected audio & video products. 

In the same post you quote (not just missing the point, but apparently entire sentences!) I specifically point out that older products are nowhere near current offerings by us or any other brand. The Point is that a good friend with a "top notch" setup (including a Kuro) often jokes that the MX in my office with a connected DVD1 is the easiest setup he's ever seen and can't believe that high end manufactures constantly miss The Point and focus myopically on performance while ease of use spirals downward! Now obviously he and I are not adversaries in any way and these comments are a little good natured fun at his own expense. I don't begrudge any other brand due kudos for whatever performance they may offer, but simply reiterate that they're built like utter crap and are practically unusable to 90% of the people that purchase them. To use yourself (clearly someone who knows how to connect AV systems and probably program a universal remote) as an example to generalize to the greater population is a bit like Tiger Woods saying, "C'mon! Just get the ball in the hole! Anyone can do it!"

Bang & Olufsen, through (hopefully) superb customer service and professional setup along with technological capability make operating and enjoying very complex systems a reality for any member of the family.

So to reiterate The Point: a television is more than a picture just like a car is more than an engine. While both are extremely important, you wouldn't want the worlds best engine to drag you along on roller skates, which is all a Kuro offers.

 

I wish individuals would move away from - with B&O you only have one remote and its so easy to use and its so integrated.

When in fact its so easy to get this with any brand now. All my system is controlled by a touch screen remote- one buttone operation with macros that is a damn sight better than the disaster that is the beo 5- which I also own; in fact that product is now an expensive paperweight.

There is no programming to do! if you buy all Pioneer products for example they interconnect with no difficulty whatsoever.

I mean , if we want to promote B&O as a company should we really be putting forward a debate about connectivity when the major brands had that sorted years ago??  we are acting as though B&O have just invented it.

Why should we move away from a valid argument? 

The idea that the average Joe or Jane can grab a universal remote and program it to work as well as a Beo 4 does out of the box is pure fantasy! At best, the universal remote will function as 5 separate remotes, never truly integrating functions. This requires custom macros, which most people either won't bother with or won't do well!

There's no doubt that with enough talent (and a healthy does of masochism) someone can get one of these hand-held pieces of rubbish to do some pretty fancy footwork, but who really cares? If you need a level of expertise to operate a product, it needs to be redesigned! If your car needed a 3rd party dashboard & steering wheel to drive it, you wouldn't praise the aftermarket part, you ask why the hell it wasn't just done right in the first place!

Connecting all components of the same brand (save ours) is not the pot of gold you claim it to be! Maybe HDMI CEC or some variant is adopted this might get closer to reality, but the plain fact is that none of the manufacturers care! The don't need to make things any better than they are! People like you will fly their colors no matter how miserable their kit is! As long as they ease the prices down nice and steady they could emit noxious fumes and you'll still buy them!

I buy and sell Bang & Olufsen because it's the only AV product that meets my overall standards of beauty, performance, and operability. While I like a few other televisions, speakers, audio systems, peripherals, etc. the proposition of putting them together and making them cooperate is a fools errand! I say that their poor aesthetics, poor build quality, cheap materials, poorly thought out interfaces, and little to no intelligent connectivity are too high a price to pay! 

Razlaw, I often have to train new salespeople to distinguish between unhappy customers and unhappy people! One can be satisfied and the other cannot! 

Trip, What did you think of the link/review of the BV9 I posted?

I'm thrilled with it and appreciate you taking the time to snip some excerpts (as I think we've realized that some of our dear readers tend to "skim"). A also agree that I'm at a loss for a major review that doesn't rave about the manifold quality and performance of our televisions! 

My favorite article so far is "Liquid Assets" from Vogue

Link: http://www.mensvogue.com/design/articles/2007/04/bang_olufsen?currentPage=1 

where the writer asks whether an LCD can still truly be special in a world where another can be purchased at a fraction of the cost from big-box retail. His answer:

"So is this flat-screen television worth up to five times as much as a similarly sized Sony Bravia XBR? I guess it depends on how closely you think we are related to those apes."

Love it! 

TripEnglish:

I'm thrilled with it and appreciate you taking the time to snip some excerpts (as I think we've realized that some of our dear readers tend to "skim"). 

You're taking the pi$$ Trip - I don't think there are many posters here (from either side of the argument) who are that selective when it comes to the facts. Perhaps you and Razlaw could continue the love-in via PM? Alternatively, we could move on and discuss the relative merits of the Beomaster 8000 amp over the Beomaster 6000, but I suspect that we'd be waiting a long time for input from some of you lot!

Razlaw:

..so many people here like to criticize as overpriced, outdated,  underperforming, inadequate connections, and a poor value.

You don't stop, do you? Razlaw, if you move your 'passion' across to a site where you could influence non-B&O users that the TVs represented better value, you'd have more success. Why on earth do you believe that we - on this board - generally believe they offer poor value? We own them?

It's generally the people outside this board that need the most convincing. You seem to have a bizarre chip on your shoulder.

Some are not selective at all about the facts, they just completely ignore the facts

j0hnbarker:

Love-in via PM?

Love it John. That's exactly what I wanted to say. I don't understand the point of this discussion. It started with B&O losing money and what they could do to solve this. It's ended with Razlaw and others trying to convince the people who buy the products why they are better value than we believe.

I've spent £30K in 12 months. I don't need the lecture. I'm already 'in'. It doesn't mean I think B&O are doing a good job or are aiming in the right direction though.

TripEnglish:

I'm thrilled with it and appreciate you taking the time to snip some excerpts (as I think we've realized that some of our dear readers tend to "skim"). A also agree that I'm at a loss for a major review that doesn't rave about the manifold quality and performance of our televisions! 

My favorite article so far is "Liquid Assets" from Vogue

Link: http://www.mensvogue.com/design/articles/2007/04/bang_olufsen?currentPage=1 

where the writer asks whether an LCD can still truly be special in a world where another can be purchased at a fraction of the cost from big-box retail. His answer:

"So is this flat-screen television worth up to five times as much as a similarly sized Sony Bravia XBR? I guess it depends on how closely you think we are related to those apes."

Love it! 

And of course the magazine 'Vogue' is very well placed to make a judgement!-

My mistake, I thought this was a forum for people who liked B and O. Say something good about B and O and receive personal atacks.

Say something bad about B and O and everybody seems to join in.

There are some who post here who as near as I can tell have NEVER posted a compliment  or anything good about B and O, almost as if they are on Pioneer's payroll. Their favorite past time is attacking and criticizing B and O.

If you want to call that a chip on my shoulder, so be it.

Razlaw:

My mistake, I thought this was a forum for people who liked B and O. Say something good about B and O and receive personal atacks.

Say something bad about B and O and everybody seems to join in.

There are some who post here who as near as I can tell have NEVER posted a compliment  or anything good about B and O, almost as if they are on Pioneer's payroll. Their favorite past time is attacking and criticizing B and O.

If you want to call that a chip on my shoulder, so be it.

Well maybe we should all join in and make statements that are not based on fact- as indeed so many have done on here and when its clear the debate has been lost it would seem its the same individuals that post the same mantra. Lets tell all the cusomers that the BS3 supports HD audio!!

Maybe some- indeed myself, have never posted a compliment because they are in the real world and have bought the later products- and ive been dissapointed which considering ive been bying B&O for 12 years is a very sad fact.

If a long standing purchaser feels like myself- is that a good advert for B&O?? so many wealthy individuals I know have deserted the brand- if there was an ounce on truth in  some of the comments made on here the company would be thriving.

Just one question:

Why do people justify spending thousands on a music system, with 'audiophile' systems running into six figures, yet when a TV is over £3k everybody is up in arms?

Could it be that we can only hear the difference and can't see the difference in quality reproduction products?!

I hear the following quite a lot and can't get over how people appreciate TV's and hifi's so differently!

BV7-40: £9k for a fantastic picture, loads of relevant connections, stunning build quality & outstanding design? doesn't include surround sound? General response: NO WAY!

BL5: £11k for fantastic sound, loads of power and digital connections, stunning build quality & outstanding design? doesn't include a hi-fi? General response: WOW YES PLEASE!

Hi - I for many years have been a very serious B&O fan and their products have connected emotionally with me like no other - I remember the magic in July 1998 when I spent my first evening with my brand new BS9000 - and until recently have owned just about every beovision, beolab and beosound created in the last 15 years.  .. and I am not some super rich person but someone who has really loved the products.

But for me it is all over - why? - because the high end beovision range is a disaster and this is a serious problem because TV is becoming a much more important part of life.   I sold my beovison 4-65 and replaced it with a pioneer 6090 and b&w 800 series speakers and think this - there is no magic in either the bv4 or the pioneer but the visual experience provided by the pioneer is in a different league.

I know I am not going mad because 4 of my good friends have also made the same transition in the last 18 months and all feel the same.  We will all return if B&O gets a grip of the high end TV again and prices it realistically.  

For those who still feel the magic that is great - I hope B&O enable me to experience it again one day.   

Pushkin:

Hi - I for many years have been a very serious B&O fan and their products have connected emotionally with me like no other - I remember the magic in July 1998 when I spent my first evening with my brand new BS9000 - and until recently have owned just about every beovision, beolab and beosound created in the last 15 years.  .. and I am not some super rich person but someone who has really loved the products.

You sound so sincerely  East European - not to say Russian ...

Pushkin, could this be a bit of boredom masquerading as dissatisfaction?

Pushkin:

Hi - I for many years have been a very serious B&O fan and their products have connected emotionally with me like no other - I remember the magic in July 1998 when I spent my first evening with my brand new BS9000 - and until recently have owned just about every beovision, beolab and beosound created in the last 15 years.  .. and I am not some super rich person but someone who has really loved the products.

But for me it is all over - why? - because the high end beovision range is a disaster and this is a serious problem because TV is becoming a much more important part of life.   I sold my beovison 4-65 and replaced it with a pioneer 6090 and b&w 800 series speakers and think this - there is no magic in either the bv4 or the pioneer but the visual experience provided by the pioneer is in a different league.

I know I am not going mad because 4 of my good friends have also made the same transition in the last 18 months and all feel the same.  We will all return if B&O gets a grip of the high end TV again and prices it realistically.  

For those who still feel the magic that is great - I hope B&O enable me to experience it again one day.   

 

 

 

I'm totally agree with you!

There is no magic anymore... Like when you start dating with new girlfriend, at the beginning it is always special, and butterfly's in your stomach... this is magic ! and then after, all magic dispirited and life is full of compromise .....

Because of that I'm recently bought BC 1(I'm using it like a main TV in my living room) , I still have Beosystem 2300, and I'm waiting for BL8000... And I still feel the magic 

Sorry B&O I will never buy it BV7 or other new TV set....

355f:

Razlaw:

My mistake, I thought this was a forum for people who liked B and O. Say something good about B and O and receive personal atacks.

Say something bad about B and O and everybody seems to join in.

There are some who post here who as near as I can tell have NEVER posted a compliment  or anything good about B and O, almost as if they are on Pioneer's payroll. Their favorite past time is attacking and criticizing B and O.

If you want to call that a chip on my shoulder, so be it.

Well maybe we should all join in and make statements that are not based on fact- as indeed so many have done on here and when its clear the debate has been lost it would seem its the same individuals that post the same mantra. Lets tell all the cusomers that the BS3 supports HD audio!!

Maybe some- indeed myself, have never posted a compliment because they are in the real world and have bought the later products- and ive been dissapointed which considering ive been bying B&O for 12 years is a very sad fact.

If a long standing purchaser feels like myself- is that a good advert for B&O?? so many wealthy individuals I know have deserted the brand- if there was an ounce on truth in  some of the comments made on here the company would be thriving.

 

I am glad you finally admit you have nothing good to say about B and O. It confirms the myopic and biased perspective of all of your posts. 

As for the high def sound, in case you had not noticed that thread ended quite awhile ago. You are the only one who keeps posting about it.  I have not responded to your recent posts about the topic as your posts were utterly unrelated to the thread you were posting them in and dealt with a closed topic. But since you can't get over the subject I will explain it one more time. I do so with apologies to those who do not wish to discuss the topic any more but since you keep bringing it up, I will respond this time. I am sure it is a waste of time as you have had it explained to you before, you have been provided multiple written documents online explaining it, it has been pointed out to you that the BS3 on screen display indicates it is outputting multi-channel pcm and you still wish to argue the point. I would ask you to provide an articulate basis for your position and some authority for it, but you have been asked that before and have been totally incapable of doing it.

1. BS3 does NOT decode dolby hd or dts hd

2. Decoding may be done in a blu-ray player

3. if the player does the decoding, it decodes it into a multichannel linear pcm which the BS3 accepts via HDMI and does output. As I said, the BS3 will display that info.

4. The only question is the maximum level, 48, 96 or 192 khz. The vast majority of blu-ray are 48khz so it is almost irrelevant whether the higher formats are output.  

As for your disappointment with the B and O products you have purchased recently, they have these modern marvels called stores. One is capable of visiting these stores and looking at the products and seeing if they meet your demands and desires before you purchase them.

I am sure you totally ignored the link here about the BV4 being in the top 5 plasmas along with the Kuro as well as the link to the glowing review of the BV9. Afterall, they are contrary to your view and you seem to be unwilling to look at anything contrary to your dislikes and complaints about B and O.

I agree !

 Of course there are always people with too much money. But they are not that stupid.  

The last four years of B&O development in technology and their price policy was a big disappointment for me. And this dilema was  predictable if you followed the forum. 

Razlaw:

355f:

Razlaw:

My mistake, I thought this was a forum for people who liked B and O. Say something good about B and O and receive personal atacks.

Say something bad about B and O and everybody seems to join in.

There are some who post here who as near as I can tell have NEVER posted a compliment  or anything good about B and O, almost as if they are on Pioneer's payroll. Their favorite past time is attacking and criticizing B and O.

If you want to call that a chip on my shoulder, so be it.

Well maybe we should all join in and make statements that are not based on fact- as indeed so many have done on here and when its clear the debate has been lost it would seem its the same individuals that post the same mantra. Lets tell all the cusomers that the BS3 supports HD audio!!

Maybe some- indeed myself, have never posted a compliment because they are in the real world and have bought the later products- and ive been dissapointed which considering ive been bying B&O for 12 years is a very sad fact.

If a long standing purchaser feels like myself- is that a good advert for B&O?? so many wealthy individuals I know have deserted the brand- if there was an ounce on truth in  some of the comments made on here the company would be thriving.

 

I am glad you finally admit you have nothing good to say about B and O. It confirms the myopic and biased perspective of all of your posts. 

As for the high def sound, in case you had not noticed that thread ended quite awhile ago. You are the only one who keeps posting about it.  I have not responded to your recent posts about the topic as your posts were utterly unrelated to the thread you were posting them in and dealt with a closed topic. But since you can't get over the subject I will explain it one more time. I do so with apologies to those who do not wish to discuss the topic any more but since you keep bringing it up, I will respond this time. I am sure it is a waste of time as you have had it explained to you before, you have been provided multiple written documents online explaining it, it has been pointed out to you that the BS3 on screen display indicates it is outputting multi-channel pcm and you still wish to argue the point. I would ask you to provide an articulate basis for your position and some authority for it, but you have been asked that before and have been totally incapable of doing it.

1. BS3 does NOT decode dolby hd or dts hd

2. Decoding may be done in a blu-ray player

3. if the player does the decoding, it decodes it into a multichannel linear pcm which the BS3 accepts via HDMI and does output. As I said, the BS3 will display that info.

4. The only question is the maximum level, 48, 96 or 192 khz. The vast majority of blu-ray are 48khz so it is almost irrelevant whether the higher formats are output.  

As for your disappointment with the B and O products you have purchased recently, they have these modern marvels called stores. One is capable of visiting these stores and looking at the products and seeing if they meet your demands and desires before you purchase them.

I am sure you totally ignored the link here about the BV4 being in the top 5 plasmas along with the Kuro as well as the link to the glowing review of the BV9. Afterall, they are contrary to your view and you seem to be unwilling to look at anything contrary to your dislikes and complaints about B and O.

You dont need to explain it one more time it simply does not support it- but please carry on posting in the same way as it is great for amusement! - to some black will always be blue!

There are indeed the marvels called stores and I made the judgement to purchase the later items but its only after spending a while with the product and then having direct comparisons running side by side ,as I have done, that I realised it was not up to the standard that the price would lead one to believe.

As you quite rightly siuggest I should have been more aware of my demands and requirements and bought alternative products-  and that just what so many associates have done- voted with their feet in huge numbers.

Razlaw:

1. BS3 does NOT decode dolby hd or dts hd

Oh good gawd Razlaw. Do you have to go through all of this again?

The BV4 and BV7-40 MKIII are superb. sw issues persist (and shouldn't), but they are superb. Whether we can convince others to buy is another matter. It's getting people in to the stores in the *first* place that's proving difficult.

Can I offer anyone a beer emoticon?  Yes? No? Maybe a martini emoticon?  Yes. That's nice.

Let's all stop talking about what formats the BeoSystem does or does not support. It is full of dark magic. We'll leave it at that.

Let's all have some cake emoticon   and a hot cup of coffee emoticon 

If I hear about audio decoding one more time, I'm going to send this thread to a desert island emoticon!   (in an airplane emoticon )