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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-05-2009 3:50 AM by MGBGTV8. 203 replies.
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  • 12-19-2008 5:17 AM

    Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    COPENHAGEN, Dec 19 (Reuters) - Danish luxury stereo and television maker Bang & Olufsen (BOb.CO: Quote, Profile, Research) forecast on Friday a pretax loss in its 2008/2009 financial year as sales in its peak months of November and December did not meet expectations. B&O forecast a loss of between 260 million and 380 million Danish crowns ($50.18-$73.34 million) on sales of between 3.1 and 3.3 billion.

    Shares in the company fell 10 percent in early trade to 77 crowns, while the Copenhagen exchange top-20 index was down 1 percent.

     http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUKDKT00233320081219

     

  • 12-19-2008 5:50 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Quite sad, if you see in the Quote the drop the share has made over the past year. From 490 to about 74 now. Hard to belief they where trading at 10 times the current value only 1,5 year ago...

    Straingly enough, the Beta is relatively low. Probably due to the number of share available.

    Personally, I expect them to drop even further in the next couple of months as more and more of there retailers in their core markets will be hit. Can they become profitable (even at a lower level) again and still keep track with the markets they are operating in?  Time will tell.

     

  • 12-19-2008 6:17 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    It sure is sad, but Beo has probably done this to themselves.

     

    What I see is a company that has gone up price-wise since I got my first Beo in -96, by hundreds of percent.

    Back in -96 it was rather easy to put up a complete audio and visual B&O system. The music systems has stayed pretty much the same price, except for introducing some very high-end speakers such as the Beolab5's, which I don't believe are overpriced.

    Looking at the TV systems, I can barely believe Beo to sell any at all. The prices are rediculus.

    Sure there are always people with too much money, but for the middle class, that used to have to financial power to buy a Beo TV, let's say an Avant, can only dream of buying a top of the line Beo TV today. It will cost as much as a second car to the family, or perhaps even more.

    Putting a 10X extra price increase on a flatscreen TV is beyond my comprehension. I understand there must be price increases for the brand name itself, beolink, active speakers, contrast screens etc. Small production volumes and high-quality materials.  

    So Beo has gone, for being achievable for the general public at some level, to only being a millionaires mark.

    The world seemed over populated with newly made millionaires still 3 months ago.

    I'm using 1996 now as an example, so 1 euro on 1996 isn't 1 euro 2008, the moneys worth has changed. But not by as much as one would think.

    I found a tablet over Finlands situation, and the exponential is only 1,13X up to 2004, speculating one could think it could be 1,17-1,20X today.

    In my eyes B&O is getting too expensive. 

    I don't think Beos price politics is the only reason for them making a negative result, but obviously they are in trouble and there's not enough people with money to buy B&O. 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-19-2008 7:21 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    bayerische:

    Sure there are always people with too much money..

    There aren't many of these people around - they tend to be Premiership footballers and lottery winners.

    Most people who have worked hard to make their money tend to know how to manage and spend their money wisely. They might also have 'too much money', but are also less likely to have a house over-flowing with B&O kit.

  • 12-19-2008 8:00 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    This thread looks like it will go the same way as many others - B&O is pricing itself out of the market.

     Well, the prices are certainly high but is B&O really suffering more than Sony and the like? Or the carmakers? B&O certainly has to look to be more efficient and they will certainly see sales suffer as the economy declines. But the solution is not to cut the price. You will not tempt a buyer from Sony or Panasonic to B&O because you've cut the premium to 400% rather than 800%.

    And what about all the B&O owners who see the residual value of their equipment crash. Many B&O buyers justify the initial investment because of the strong residual or "trade in" values.

    B&O is a premium brand that carries a premium price - rather like a Rolex or TAG watch. There's no such thing as a discounted premium brand.

  • 12-19-2008 8:42 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
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    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Only the guys at the top can plan the way forward for B&O, I think it's a very, very difficult job!  We can argue, and have many times (sometimes quite heatedly at that), about price, specifications and value but the sad fact is that over the last 8 or so years the pace of technological advance has spiralled out of B&O's reach and they have struggled (with a few notable exceptions) to release relevant products. It's difficult to see things changing in the coming years. Allied to this the longevity, upgradability and residual value of the product is now questionable (BV7 MKI anybody?).

    The next few years will be very interesting as the new CEO's masterplan unfolds.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-19-2008 8:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    bayerische:

    Sure there are always people with too much money, but for the middle class, that used to have to financial power to buy a Beo TV, let's say an Avant, can only dream of buying a top of the line Beo TV today. It will cost as much as a second car to the family, or perhaps even more.

     

    I have said this before and will say it again, the so called huge price increases on the TVs are fiction. Our Avant, cited here as being available to the middle class, cost us $8,500 eight years ago. Our Beovision 7 with Beolab 7-4 cost $14,250 this year. Sure it is significantly more, but it is less than twice the Avant's price, it obviously has a much bigger screen, acoustic lens technology in the speaker, 1080p, 7.1 instead of 5.1, the vastly improved processing of the BS3 verses the BS1, and inflation of course has to be factored in.

    Had the BV7 been available at the same time as the Avant is it really expected they would sell for the same price.

    Given the fact General Motors and Chrysler are both indicating bankrupcy is imminent without a bailout from the US government, Chrysler just shut all of its plants down for at least a month, it is clear economic problems worldwide are widespread. Maybe the car makers need to roll their prices back to the levels they were in 2000 plus still give us all of the technological advances they have added since 2000 for free and B and O should do the same?

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-19-2008 9:11 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    just wanted to note one thing, the prices of b&o/dealer has steadily increased... every 3 months theres a little price increase by my dealer.

    Thats not going to save them nessesarily... offers offers and offers is what works. I just received my BL2 and another BC2 and got a serenata for free... Plus 5 years warrenty

  • 12-19-2008 9:24 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    i'm not interested in freebies or offers or even cut prices

    i am however interested in buying something that should be at the very least if not cutting edge somewhere approaching relevancy

    the truth is is that bno's video products are very out of date and over priced for what you get

    no way is a bv9 worth over 5+ x a prioneer kuro

    in the uk a 50" kuro - level 10 screen is £2,500 , a bv9 is £15,000 for an old screen and old technology  , it doesn't even have a twin tuner recorder !

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-19-2008 9:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Fair... but also I rather have a TV that I get amazing quality from and enjoy using it.

    We all agree that all B&O TVs produce excellent frames and quality. The built in DTV decoder of the BV7-40 is amazing. I must say.

    All in all I am extremely happy with it... now two twin recorders builtin to a TV I think is over kill. We are not going to be able to stop with demands.

    That it is over priced, it is... im not arguing there, that the technology is not the latest, agree again... but the thing looks great and i love it. Even if you get the kuro, youll want to replace it every year or so... 

    My serene is a great example, its the simplest phone, call text and nothing else! Well, except that pimp motor. Anyway, when people see the motorised screen work, they get impressed, then either ask: how much it cost, or what brand is it (if they have it in their hands, i usually hear... "Ohh, Its a Samsung" moments later) aaaaannyyywayy..

    The fact is that its impressed them (although this isnt the motive) and they ask no more questions. It impresses them more than the iphone... funny expirience i had once... With the same logic, when you turn your TV on, are you happy with the quality... i am for sure. so its all done for me, personally.

    If however i was a "videophile" or whatever they call them, then i would get picky. If the picture quality was rubbish and still the asking price was 15K, ok, thats still rubbish, but its not the case. What B&O need to work on is the inexcusable things like no HDMI on the 7-32... Stupidity like that should cause riots within us, eventually leading to the thrashing of the b&o HQs if it carries on!

  • 12-19-2008 9:45 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    moxxey:

    bayerische:

    Sure there are always people with too much money..

    There aren't many of these people around - they tend to be Premiership footballers and lottery winners.

    Most people who have worked hard to make their money tend to know how to manage and spend their money wisely. They might also have 'too much money', but are also less likely to have a house over-flowing with B&O kit.

     

    I agree.  

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-19-2008 9:52 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw,

     

    Yes, the screen is bigger, and yes it had Full HD.

     But you're missing the point. So are Sony, Pioneer and all the other makes. Flatscreen TV's are today similarly priced as their CRT counterparts. You get a nice Sony flatscreen with a much larger screen than the top-end Sony CRT from yester-years and it has Full HD, and they are priced around 1000 euro. So was the CRT.

    Beo might have charged around 8000 euro for the best CRT, but twice the price for an LCD/Plasma?

    And I for one would buy a Beo TV if it was priced 300 or 400% on the Sony/pioneer equivalent. I won't pay 800%. The TV's are overpriced, Period.

    Imagine the Beolab 5 sounding like a 2000 euro system... We wouldn't swallow that. 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-19-2008 10:11 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw:

    Had the BV7 been available at the same time as the Avant is it really expected they would sell for the same price.

    I'm not so sure. If these technologies had been available, as the Avant was the premier TV from B&O at the time of production, they would have been implemented in to the TV. The price wouldn't have increased. Why would it? In the same manner that, when the BV7-40 MKIV ships with the Blu-ray drive and (100Hz) improved panel, it won't go up in price. There's no way B&O would dare increase the price of the BV7-40.

    I don't think B&O products are more expensive than they were a few years ago. ie. I don't think they've become 'unaffordable'. The problem is that the average home user only wants to watch basic TV and view a movie from time to time. They don't care about 7.1 surround sound and so on.

    For this reason, it's way too easy to go out and buy a fairly decent Samsung 40" LCD for around £700. That's the main reason B&O kit now looks too expensive as the average home user - even those with a high disposable income - can't justify the cost of a B&O TV, even with all these so-called 'technologies'.

    B&O aren't doing anything wrong. It's just become harder to convince people to go B&O. Ten years ago I struggled to purchase a high-end Sony CRT for around £3000. In those days an Avant was around £5000. Basically just under twice the price. Now the ratio between the same Sony TV (£800) and B&O TV (£9000) is 10x what it was a few years ago.

    You must be pretty committed or a B&O die-hard fan to convince yourself that spending 10x the price of, say, a Sony is money well spent.

  • 12-19-2008 10:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Flappo The Grate:

    i'm not interested in freebies or offers or even cut prices

    i am however interested in buying something that should be at the very least if not cutting edge somewhere approaching relevancy

    the truth is is that bno's video products are very out of date and over priced for what you get

    no way is a bv9 worth over 5+ x a prioneer kuro

    in the uk a 50" kuro - level 10 screen is £2,500 , a bv9 is £15,000 for an old screen and old technology  , it doesn't even have a twin tuner recorder !

    Does the Kuro have a camera that monitors the color every 100 hours?  Does the Kuro have an acoustic lens center channel speaker? Does the Kuro have an internal 7 channel surround processor? Does the Kuro have a motorized stand, or for that matter any stand at all other than a cheap flimsy piece of plastic to sit it on a table?

    If all you want is a 50 inch monitor, by the Kuro.  If you want to compare prices, compare thge Kuro plus a high quality BDI or Bello stand (not needed with the BV9), a surround processor that is close to the quality of a BS3, and a high quality center channel speaker.

    Let's look at prices.

    BV9   21,900  Bang & Olufsen BeoVision 50" Plasma HDTV In Silver With Black Highlights - 197

    Kuro    4,499  Pioneer KURO Elite Signature Series 50" Black Plasma HDTV - PRO101FD

    Pioneer receiver  6,999.99   Pioneer Elite Direct Energy HD A/V Receiver In Black - SC09TX At Abt Electroni

    a center channel 1,250  KEF XQ Series Piano Black Three-Way Center Channel Speaker - XQ50CBK

    stand             699  BDI Vista Series Flat Panel TV Stand - VISTA9960SIL

    total is approximately 13,500.  Use a B and O speaker and the price difference is even less.

    We can debate specifications all day and everybody wants different specifications. Sure the B and O istill costs more....it is a niche market luxury brand at a premium price, always has been, always will be, hopefully.

    Whatever specs the Kuro has, I am sure they will be outdated in a matter of weeks when the next greatest Kuro is released.

    Check out the new Sony KDL-46XBR8, 46 inches price 4,999.

    Its fine to compare prices but comparing the BV9 to a simple monitor is like comparing a Bentley to just the engine of a some other brand.

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-19-2008 10:28 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw:

    We can debate specifications all day and everybody wants different specifications. Sure the B and O is still more....it is a niche market luxury brand at a premium price, always has been, always will be, hopefully.

    The problem isn't us Razlaw. We're still buying B&O kit. You're trying to convince the wrong people. You need to head to other A/V forums and start encouraging them to purchase B&O kit based on the perceived value.

    The thread is about B&O losing money. They're losing money as they're not attracting the casual user to buy their products. Die-hard 'fans' such as you and me are buying and will still purchase.

    We don't need to convince ourselves about the value of B&O kit, it's the average punter on the street.

  • 12-19-2008 10:32 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    moxxey:
    Razlaw:

    Had the BV7 been available at the same time as the Avant is it really expected they would sell for the same price.

    I'm not so sure. If these technologies had been available, as the Avant was the premier TV from B&O at the time of production, they would have been implemented in to the TV. The price wouldn't have increased. Why would it? In the same manner that, when the BV7-40 MKIV ships with the Blu-ray drive and (100Hz) improved panel, it won't go up in price. There's no way B&O would dare increase the price of the BV7-40.

    I don't think B&O products are more expensive than they were a few years ago. ie. I don't think they've become 'unaffordable'. The problem is that the average home user only wants to watch basic TV and view a movie from time to time. They don't care about 7.1 surround sound and so on.

    For this reason, it's way too easy to go out and buy a fairly decent Samsung 40" LCD for around £700. That's the main reason B&O kit now looks too expensive as the average home user - even those with a high disposable income - can't justify the cost of a B&O TV, even with all these so-called 'technologies'.

    B&O aren't doing anything wrong. It's just become harder to convince people to go B&O. Ten years ago I struggled to purchase a high-end Sony CRT for around £3000. In those days an Avant was around £5000. Basically just under twice the price. Now the ratio between the same Sony TV (£800) and B&O TV (£9000) is 10x what it was a few years ago.

    You must be pretty committed or a B&O die-hard fan to convince yourself that spending 10x the price of, say, a Sony is money well spent.

    For once, I agreed with much of what you said, until I got to the last sentence. Please direct me to the Sony you are referring to?

    A BV7 is $9450. Please direct me to a $945 40 in Sony that includes a free DVD player (whatever quality, even a cheap one) and a 7 channel integrated surround processor and the ability to run a projector if decided?

    If all I want is a pretty picture on the wall, I will be a Sony or Samsung, or a piece of art. 

     Obviously not everybody wants or needs the extra features of the BV7. But if quality surround sound is desired, the price is not 10 times the price of the Sony. 

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-19-2008 10:37 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    deleted duplicate

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-19-2008 10:37 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    moxxey:
    Razlaw:

    We can debate specifications all day and everybody wants different specifications. Sure the B and O is still more....it is a niche market luxury brand at a premium price, always has been, always will be, hopefully.

    The problem isn't us Razlaw. We're still buying B&O kit. You're trying to convince the wrong people. You need to head to other A/V forums and start encouraging them to purchase B&O kit based on the perceived value.

    The thread is about B&O losing money. They're losing money as they're not attracting the casual user to buy their products. Die-hard 'fans' such as you and me are buying and will still purchase.

    We don't need to convince ourselves about the value of B&O kit, it's the average punter on the street.

    The strange thing about those other forums, the people there probably actually have positive things to say about their chosen brand instead of constantly complaining about it, which seems to be a favorite past time here.

    You and I both like the products and will continue to buy it. Others would never buy it, past present or future. My only point remains it is pure fiction to say B and O costs 10 times another premium brand. It costs more, yes maybe 50%  more, maybe 2 or 3 times more, but not 10 times.

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-19-2008 10:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    But let's focus on the main thing about a good tv, it's all about the picture, Most people with a Pioneer Kuro use a fine home theater.

    The Kuro is the best plasma available. Beo's plasma screens don't come close. And yes they have cameras, contrast screens etc. But do you need them? 

     You can't compare Beovisions One to One with the Kuro, since it's so much better, in my opinion the picture quality of the Beovisions are on par with the 1000 euro TV's, LCD or plasma. He who says Beoscreens are superiour is talking with emotions, not sense. :D 

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-19-2008 10:57 AM In reply to

    • 355f
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-19-2007
    • Posts 655
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw:
    Flappo The Grate:

    i'm not interested in freebies or offers or even cut prices

    i am however interested in buying something that should be at the very least if not cutting edge somewhere approaching relevancy

    the truth is is that bno's video products are very out of date and over priced for what you get

    no way is a bv9 worth over 5+ x a prioneer kuro

    in the uk a 50" kuro - level 10 screen is £2,500 , a bv9 is £15,000 for an old screen and old technology  , it doesn't even have a twin tuner recorder !

    Does the Kuro have a camera that monitors the color every 100 hours?  Does the Kuro have an acoustic lens center channel speaker? Does the Kuro have an internal 7 channel surround processor? Does the Kuro have a motorized stand, or for that matter any stand at all other than a cheap flimsy piece of plastic to sit it on a table?

    If all you want is a 50 inch monitor, by the Kuro.  If you want to compare prices, compare thge Kuro plus a high quality BDI or Bello stand (not needed with the BV9), a surround processor that is close to the quality of a BS3, and a high quality center channel speaker.

    Let's look at prices.

    BV9   21,900  Bang & Olufsen BeoVision 50" Plasma HDTV In Silver With Black Highlights - 197

    Kuro    4,499  Pioneer KURO Elite Signature Series 50" Black Plasma HDTV - PRO101FD

    Pioneer receiver  6,999.99   Pioneer Elite Direct Energy HD A/V Receiver In Black - SC09TX At Abt Electroni

    a center channel 1,250  KEF XQ Series Piano Black Three-Way Center Channel Speaker - XQ50CBK

    stand             699  BDI Vista Series Flat Panel TV Stand - VISTA9960SIL

    total is approximately 13,500.  Use a B and O speaker and the price difference is even less.

    We can debate specifications all day and everybody wants different specifications. Sure the B and O istill costs more....it is a niche market luxury brand at a premium price, always has been, always will be, hopefully.

    Whatever specs the Kuro has, I am sure they will be outdated in a matter of weeks when the next greatest Kuro is released.

    Check out the new Sony KDL-46XBR8, 46 inches price 4,999.

    Its fine to compare prices but comparing the BV9 to a simple monitor is like comparing a Bentley to just the engine of a some other brand.

     

     

    As I quoted on  a previous thread.

     

    I have the BV4/BS3 with table stand- that costs in the UK £12,750. I also have 4 BL9- and a 7.1 but for this debate lets just take a 7.1 speaker and two of the cheapest speakers from B&O( say the 4000) to complete the set up. Thats about £16000 all in- with one touch screen remote

    I have just bought for my flat aPioneer kuro, pioneer blue ray player, multi channel receiver, and full range speakers and it costs £4,700 all in

    I have also had it calibrated and Im sorry to say the picture with the kuro is better.

    So the question is, im sure that the sound from B&O will be better and will I pay £11,000 more for that- answer NO

    The camera thing is a nonsense- if the panel technology used was up to date then the half panel life would be hugely improved leaving colour rendition superior for a longer periof of time anyway. If B&O are charging sky hight prices then they should use the latest panels and not insult the buyers intelligence.

    Its intersting that many high end brands tried to re package plasma and charge accordingly- they have all given up doing this now- perhaps B&O should get out of plasma

  • 12-19-2008 11:01 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Look guys, maybe I'm the only one missing the point but the share price has nothing to do directly with the price point of their products or the technology behind the products.

    What I see it about is a bunch of money men (and their analysts) who perceive there is a cent or two to ride on the perception that the shares will be worth more or less. In the current economic climate Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba et al are all forecasting a huge drop in profits (same magnitude as B&O - minus 80 to 90% YoY). The analysts perceive that people are not going to buy as many TV's as they did in 2005/6 irrespective of brand.

    Where B&O did take a hit was on the basis that the former CEO - TBS was basing the whole farm on a strategy to produce "more-affordable" shiny toys for the masses (the Apple model) which would (he hope) generate more revenue for the company than the big-ticket items. That did not work, debased the brand and TBS got fired because of it.

    The market will probably continue like this for another 1 - 2 years and even company's like Apple will suffer in the hardware section as Macs are seen as expensive and iPods reach saturation even though they are at a much lower price point (more casual, less thought-provoking or soul-searching purchase for individuals in a time of economic uncertainty).

    B&O is a mature company and does not rely on the share price to meet it's Capital needs (it can do that through loans and it's trading). The only weakness is it could be prone to a buy-out but that will only happen if it's share value is seen as a cash bargain compared to the value of it's assets and its revenue/debt situation. I doubt no corporation will be eying that one up at this point in time.

    Finally, let's not forget what those t**ts in red braces have done to the whole world economy. All they have done is look for excuses to kick a football from one end of the field to make a buck, then turncoat and kick it back the other way for some more. B&O are just part of the mass casualties of that.

    10%

     

     

  • 12-19-2008 11:04 AM In reply to

    • Affineur
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-27-2008
    • United States
    • Posts 90
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    moxxey says:

    "The problem is that the average home user only wants to watch basic TV and view a movie from time to time. They don't care about 7.1 surround sound and so on.

    For this reason, it's way too easy to go out and buy a fairly decent Samsung 40" LCD for around £700. That's the main reason B&O kit now looks too expensive as the average home user - even those with a high disposable income - can't justify the cost of a B&O TV, even with all these so-called 'technologies'."

     

    I agree with your analysis as  far as why "average" consumers do not buy B&O, but this is actually the point. B&O are not marketing to "average" consumers, they are marketing primarily to design-centric audio-video enthusiasts. Yes the "average" consumer who wants to put up a too big panel in their livingroom (lounge) to watch sports, "reality" broadcast television, and bad action movies will not choose B&O. But someone who is interested in what I will call "fine living" which includes a significant focus on design and integration, will naturally gravitate towards B&O. Perhaps the decline in B&O sales is in part due to first-world society, in general, having less and less interest in the more sophisticated side of the home environment. I certainly am seeing more and more of this lack of sophistication.

    As far as price, this 10X fantasy that has been discussed at length in other threads is clearly not the case. Many examples have been given about price differentials (particularly from Razlaw). First of all, as has been pointed out many times, the price differential is not 10X and secondly when comparisons are made the design and integration side has not been taken into account. Design costs and it is clear that Sony, etc. are not putting significant focus on design.... just look at the products. My analysis has shown a 4X premium on B&O (for  the equivalent technology) and my experience is that once the products are in place and being used (for perhaps 20 years I might add) the premium is well worth it.

    Back to B&O and the net loss, I do not think that there will be a single discretionary consumer product producer who does not show a loss in the next few quarters, so let's not be such doomsayers..... at least yet.

    Seek simplicity and distrust it. Alfred North Whitehead
  • 12-19-2008 11:05 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    • Joined on 08-21-2007
    • Spain
    • Posts 618
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw:
    bayerische:

    Sure there are always people with too much money, but for the middle class, that used to have to financial power to buy a Beo TV, let's say an Avant, can only dream of buying a top of the line Beo TV today. It will cost as much as a second car to the family, or perhaps even more.

     

    I have said this before and will say it again, the so called huge price increases on the TVs are fiction. Our Avant, cited here as being available to the middle class, cost us $8,500 eight years ago. Our Beovision 7 with Beolab 7-4 cost $14,250 this year. Sure it is significantly more, but it is less than twice the Avant's price, it obviously has a much bigger screen, acoustic lens technology in the speaker, 1080p, 7.1 instead of 5.1, the vastly improved processing of the BS3 verses the BS1, and inflation of course has to be factored in.

    Had the BV7 been available at the same time as the Avant is it really expected they would sell for the same price.

    Given the fact General Motors and Chrysler are both indicating bankrupcy is imminent without a bailout from the US government, Chrysler just shut all of its plants down for at least a month, it is clear economic problems worldwide are widespread. Maybe the car makers need to roll their prices back to the levels they were in 2000 plus still give us all of the technological advances they have added since 2000 for free and B and O should do the same?

     

    Your probably correct with your price comparison between now and 8 years ago, but what you are forgetting is that the prices of the competition's products have stayed the same or in many cases gone down since then. Only this morning on a UK TV channel I saw some store offering a 32" Sony Bravia for just over 300 GBP. This is not unusual and just an example of severe price cutting over the whole of the market.  

  • 12-19-2008 11:06 AM In reply to

    • Dude1
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 09-18-2007
    • London
    • Posts 189
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    This is dead boring.

    Its been debated on this site all the time...price price price.....too much.. blah blah.

    I dont hear many people who can afford Bang complain when they buy it.  Its rubbish about trying to convert Audiophiles or videophile to Bang, they dont care for design etc, they spend their life building systems and trying to get the best sound for next to nothing. They enjoy playing with systems as a hobby.  The average Bang buyer look for something high quality, great looks and sound and something easy to use.

    EVERYONE is struggling at the moment and I dont think this requires further explanation.

    If you dont want it, cant see the value of it thats ok.  You just dont buy it.

    Merry Xmas!

  • 12-19-2008 11:08 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen sees FY loss on weak pre-Xmas sales

    Razlaw:
    moxxey:
    Razlaw:

    We can debate specifications all day and everybody wants different specifications. Sure the B and O is still more....it is a niche market luxury brand at a premium price, always has been, always will be, hopefully.

    The problem isn't us Razlaw. We're still buying B&O kit. You're trying to convince the wrong people. You need to head to other A/V forums and start encouraging them to purchase B&O kit based on the perceived value.

    The thread is about B&O losing money. They're losing money as they're not attracting the casual user to buy their products. Die-hard 'fans' such as you and me are buying and will still purchase.

    We don't need to convince ourselves about the value of B&O kit, it's the average punter on the street.

    The strange thing about those other forums, the people there probably actually have positive things to say about their chosen brand instead of constantly complaining about it, which seems to be a favorite past time here.

    You and I both like the products and will continue to buy it. Others would never buy it, past present or future. My only point remains it is pure fiction to say B and O costs 10 times another premium brand. It costs more, yes maybe 50%  more, maybe 2 or 3 times more, but not 10 times.

    Without wanting to engage directly with the content of this thread, I think you're missing a vital point about this forum Razlaw, and it's one I think I can explain by looking at your B&O collection listed in your signature line. There are I think two main types of B&O fans on this board: those that can afford all/most of the new products the company makes and go and buy them as the main AV components for their homes, and; those individuals who consider themselves collectors of the company's products from the past, who may also have one or two new or newish products as something like the main TV or sound system in a particular room in their house. Of course, there will be individuals who straddle both camps, but if you accept this premise, then I think you can get to the root of the positions taken in these kind of threads. There are those that have bought and will continue to buy new B&O products and that will defend the company (and their own purchases) to the max, and there are those that look at the new equipment and spec levels (Beolab 5/9 aside) and say no way am I spending the equivalent of a medium sized family car for a new Beovision, when I can go out and buy a mint 32 inch DVD Avant for under £1k and be satisfied that it meets most if not all of my personal TV/DVD needs.

    I've noticed this time and again where the collectors (I count myself in this group) will post across most of the forums on various threads, whereas those with a house like a B1 store will mostly confine themselves to threads like this or those speculating on what tweak/additional HDMI port might be added to the BV7 this week. I'm not making a value judgement on either here, just an observation that might help others understand where those with alternative views might be coming from.

    My £0.02 worth anyway. 

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

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