Affineur:

 B&O are not marketing to "average" consumers, they are marketing primarily to design-centric audio-video enthusiasts. Yes the "average" consumer who wants to put up a too big panel in their livingroom (lounge) to watch sports, "reality" broadcast television, and bad action movies will not choose B&O. But someone who is interested in what I will call "fine living" which includes a significant focus on design and integration, will naturally gravitate towards B&O.

Design-centric audio-video enthusiasts used to buy B&O,  now it is only design-centric audio-video enthusiasts with a higher disposable income that do, this may have an impact.

 

Puncher:

Affineur:

 B&O are not marketing to "average" consumers, they are marketing primarily to design-centric audio-video enthusiasts. Yes the "average" consumer who wants to put up a too big panel in their livingroom (lounge) to watch sports, "reality" broadcast television, and bad action movies will not choose B&O. But someone who is interested in what I will call "fine living" which includes a significant focus on design and integration, will naturally gravitate towards B&O.

Design-centric audio-video enthusiasts used to buy B&O,  now it is only design-centric audio-video enthusiasts with a higher disposable income that do, this may have an impact.

I'm going to disagree, Puncher. B&O have lost this segment. The brand is primarily appealing to social climbers and nouveau riche segments today (which is why they are mistakenly focusing on sales in Russia and Asia), it has chased away the truly design aware and the traditional upper class quality conscious.

At any rate - a brand has to stand for something tangible and abstract, at the same time, and these factors have to be related to its strongest brand ambassadors.

B&O established itself strongly as Purveyors to the Court of Denmark, by extension becoming anchored in the traditional upper class quality conscious segment.

It then made a powerful foray into design awareness, beginning in the late 60s and mining that ore until sometime in the90s.

The brand then lost its way, and tried to straddle too many posts at once. Frankly, in the 2000s, it's been flailing. The few strong statement products have not been featured, while a few brand exploiter products have been allowed to undermine the impression of the brand, in toto.

Going "all in" for the nouveau riche (heavily subsidised by easy credit) was a risky strategy, and it seemed to be working, but then the branch snapped.
B&O is where Apple was, years ago, when Sculley was messing around with it, and before Jobs returned and subsequently began the iXxx journey. Let's hope something similar is in store for B&O.

Puncher,

I do not agree that high disposable income is a neccessary condition sufficient for purchase of B&O. Being older, I will from time to time have gatherings at my residence where I invite younger collegues. A part of my professional interests involve design and these collegues are often very aware of design. It has been rather frequent that a visitor will see and experience my B&O system in action in my home and be quite impressed (particularly if I take (or have) the time to explain all of the integrated features and interconnectivity of the system). Numerous times, a few months (or perahps a year or more) later one of these younger colleagues will approach me and indicate that they have recently purchased a B&O system for their home and thank me for the information and demonstration as they are so pleased with their purchase. I know what these individuals earn per annum and it does not put them into the "high disposable income" group, particularly those that have started families. They have weighed the advantages and disadvantges, analyzed the competitive products, and decided on B&O..... without having "high disposable income". I have no idea what proportion such individuals are of the B&O customer population, but I would hazzard to guess that it is larger than you might think. Is this demographic portion cutting back on discretionary purchases? Yes. Will they continue to buy B&O in the future? I think Yes.

soundproof:

Puncher:

Affineur:

 B&O are not marketing to "average" consumers, they are marketing primarily to design-centric audio-video enthusiasts. Yes the "average" consumer who wants to put up a too big panel in their livingroom (lounge) to watch sports, "reality" broadcast television, and bad action movies will not choose B&O. But someone who is interested in what I will call "fine living" which includes a significant focus on design and integration, will naturally gravitate towards B&O.

Design-centric audio-video enthusiasts used to buy B&O,  now it is only design-centric audio-video enthusiasts with a higher disposable income that do, this may have an impact.

I'm going to disagree, Puncher. B&O have lost this segment. The brand is primarily appealing to social climbers and nouveau riche segments today (which is why they are mistakenly focusing on sales in Russia and Asia), it has chased away the truly design aware and the traditional upper class quality conscious.

At any rate - a brand has to stand for something tangible and abstract, at the same time, and these factors have to be strongly related to its strongest brand ambassadors.

B&O established itself strongly as Purveyors to the Court of Denmark, by extension becoming strongly anchored in the traditional upper class quality conscious segment.

It then made a powerful foray into design awareness, beginning in the late 60s and mining that ore until sometime in the90s.

The brand then lost its way, and tried to straddle too many posts at once. Frankly, in the 2000s, it's been flailing. The few strong statement products have not been featured, while a few brand exploiter products have been allowed to undermine the impression of the brand, in toto.

Going "all in" for the nouveau riche (heavily subsidised by easy credit) was a risky strategy, and it seemed to be working, but then the branch snapped.
B&O is where Apple was, years ago, when Sculley was messing around with it, and before Jobs returned and subsequently began the iXxx journey. Let's hope something similar is in store for B&O.

I have to say, I'm not sure if you understood my meaning or else I agree with you disagreeing with me!

What I was getting at in Affineur's post was his statement that enthusiasts bought B&O, my point is that a huge percentage of these brand loyal enthusiasts have fallen by the wayside and only folks with loads of money are left. Discarding those that love the brand and it's product and relying on interior decorators is indeed a risky strategy.

We're in agreement, Puncher. I should have been more precise. B&O has lost the design-centric group - the design cognoscenti are elsewhere, and yes - it's those with a higher disposable income that gravitate to the brand now. Or did - judging by how things are developing.

It's worth recognising that the general condition in world wide finance is a huge problem. Ferrari reported an 85% drop in sales, for instance. But I believe B&O could have had more resilience. When people such as Razlaw complain about "our" complaining, that misses the point, which is that us brand nuts have issues.

Attached is an interesting article outlining B&O US strategy and their target customer - aspiring enthusiats they are not!

Razlaw:

A BV7 is $9450. Please direct me to a $945 40 in Sony that includes a free DVD player (whatever quality, even a cheap one) and a 7 channel integrated surround processor and the ability to run a projector if decided?

If you'd bothered to read and understand what I was saying, you'd come to the same conclusion. The problem is that most people do not care that the BV7 ships with as DVD player. These are either free or less than £20. They're hardly likely to say to themselves 'wow, let's pay that extra £8000 as it ships with a DVD player'. Also, as I said, they don't care if it can a decode 7.1 surround and a projector.

B&O are on the high street. Problem is, you are preaching to the wrong people. The average person on the street needs to believe they should pay £9000 for 7.1, projector control and so on. I mean, how many people really need this 'technology'?

Affineur:

B&O are not marketing to "average" consumers, they are marketing primarily to design-centric audio-video enthusiasts

Completely disagree. Firstly B&O are on the high street. They advertise in 'average' magazines such as Esquire, Men's Health and so on, in the UK. Secondly, enthusiasts tend NOT to consider B&O, in my experience. The people who purchase B&O, particularly in the UK, seem to be around 45, slightly clueless about technology, have a high disposable income, want B&O to install and set it all up and don't want to change their products in the short-term. They are hardly enthusiasts.

soundproof:

We're in agreement, Puncher. I should have been more precise. B&O has lost the design-centric group - the design cognoscenti are elsewhere, and yes - it's those with a higher disposable income that gravitate to the brand now. Or did - judging by how things are developing.

Out of interest where are the design cognoscenti now?

B&O always attracted those with a higher disposable income, the products were never cheap. It is no great surprise that  sales have collapsed in the last few months, no high end brand can withstand the severe loss of consumer confidence that has hit us all within the last few months. It is difficult for B&O as they have been hit by a triple whammy of the development of online music/video offerings, fast moving flat screen technologies, and the most severe jolt to consumer purchasing power. It will take time to adust to this new landscape.

With respect to the AV products B&O never really reduced their pricing from that of the early plasma screens where the BV5/BV4 were really not a lot more expensive than the competing Philips/Panasonic offerings. However as the other manufacturers reduced prices as economies of scale kicked in, B&O did not. Perhaps for various reasions: they could command the prices they were asking, they needed the extra margin to support the B&O retail outlet model, or they did not want to reduce prices on models which have lifecycles measured in years rather than the months of their competition and hence irritate their loyal following. To reduce prices they need to introduce new cheaper products that still have the B&O design ethos  but which do not cannibalise sales of more expensive models i.e. the BV7-40 range, I do not think the BV8 really fits the bill here. Only time will tell whether they can do this. I do think they are aware of the problem and are going to have a damned good try. 

They have a lot of good products in the range, I certainly cannot think of any other manufacturer which has such a desirable product range - what are some of you guys looking for? I admit at times I find this forum excessively negative. 

I am not sure who here are customers or collectors of B&O. B&O and the Dealers could do with some of the former at the moment.

 

moxxey:

Razlaw:

A BV7 is $9450. Please direct me to a $945 40 in Sony that includes a free DVD player (whatever quality, even a cheap one) and a 7 channel integrated surround processor and the ability to run a projector if decided?

If you'd bothered to read and understand what I was saying, you'd come to the same conclusion. The problem is that most people do not care that the BV7 ships with as DVD player. These are either free or less than £20. They're hardly likely to say to themselves 'wow, let's pay that extra £8000 as it ships with a DVD player'. Also, as I said, they don't care if it can a decode 7.1 surround and a projector.

B&O are on the high street. Problem is, you are preaching to the wrong people. The average person on the street needs to believe they should pay £9000 for 7.1, projector control and so on. I mean, how many people really need this 'technology'?

 

Debating a topic is one thing, personal attacks such as your first sentence are another.

Razlaw:

Debating a topic is one thing, personal attacks such as your first sentence are another.

Razlaw. I think you take things way too personally. If you regard that as an 'attack', gawd help us.

The problem is Razlaw is that your passion seems to be directed at the wrong people. We buy B&O. We like B&O. We don't need to be told about the fantastic technology within a BV7-40. We're buying them! Direct those thoughts towards the people who need convincing.

Everybody relax! Let's enjoy some martini glass emoticons!   

There we go. That's better! 

Puncher:

Attached is an interesting article outlining B&O US strategy and their target customer - aspiring enthusiats they are not!

Have to confess I'm highly skeptical of reports that begin with the following sentence - and even offers a translation of the French, speakers of which will be mightily surprised by the "French".

Though it is deliciously tempting to embrace a French proverb as luscious as
“Il est impossible de trope de luxe” (It is impossible to overdo luxury) ...

 This sentence has a touch of unintended poignancy to it:

Regional development manager Henrik Holm Pedersen explained it this way:
“We don’t want our $20,000 TV to be next to another brand’s $3,000 model.
It’s just too hard for a salesperson to represent both.”

 And while the residents of the Renwick may find the initial B&O installation of interest, at some point it will dawn on them that all their neighbours have exactly the same A/V. A nice, hotel feeling to the place, I guess.

 

Actually, the idea with the Renwick is that a basic package is provided, but can be easily upgraded. At the end of the day, very few "basic" systems will be left. I don' think any of our clients there feel the least bit "cookie cutter!" 

I take it they all have Audis, and just upgrade to the model and spec's they want, to feel different.

 

The result is there : big losses, less and less customers, prices higher and higher.... I predict that many stores will close during H1 2009.

All other words are 'blablabla'

The B&O's strategy has failed. Period. 

 B&O must very quickly change its products lines and its pricing strategy. The demonstration has been done during these last 3 years that the current strategy has failed (it's not simply due to the current crisis, it's too easy to say that).

If I was an enthusiast B&O fan, I would not argue that B&O strategy and products are top. I would question myself why B&O is failing instead of replying post after post that in fact  the BV7 is cheap....

And it's not a Geant IPOD @ 5000$  (with less functions and many cables ...) that will save the company

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

I think you are right. The current strategy has failed. What B&O needs is new customers. To get those it needs a lower price/cost base and a revised product mix that can deliver those elusive new customers. It all sounds easy doesn't it....

Apparently many on this forum think the TVs are too expensive.  I understand that position but if you have a house full of B&O products including for example Beolab 5, why is it such a leap to buy the TV?  Maybe there are some who think everything B&O sells is too expensive. For the people who think B&O is just entirely too expensive, it is time to move on.  The prices have always been high.  I don't envision that changing.

As for the notion that B&O appeals to those with an exquisite sense of style and taste.  That may be true but I'll bet there are many purchasers of B&O who who didn't know taste even when they sat on it.  Does B&O send the fashion police to a home to make sure the right kind of person is purchasing their products?  Heaven forbid that a B&O product be placed in the wrong Zip code.

I actually want to know more about B&O's product strategy.  Before I make additional purchases, I want to know what's next instead of the current products painted white and of course numbered.  The only announced new product, the Beosound 5 is nice but I am having problems trying to figure out how it fits into my current system.  So far, Beosound 5 does not seem to have wow factor but I will give it a chance.  I already have a Beomedia 1.  I won't have any problems figuring out Beosound 5.

During tough times innovation is difficult.  I sincerely hope B&O does not fail. 

 

linder:

Apparently many on this forum think the TVs are too expensive.  

Linder - you need to check out my post from yesterday. There are probably more posters on this forum who fall into the 'enthusiast' rather than 'current purchaser' categories here. The enthusiast probably cares more for the brand and its heritage than most, but might not be in a position to splash the cash on some of the new product lines. Are we really to say that they 'should move on'? The implication being, as I read it, that if you can't afford the new products you should tootle off and not post in these kinds of threads - thus leaving us with nothing to talk about other than mutual backslapping regarding the latest purchases of those that can afford it. 

Just thought I'd point out that Toyota is going to be posting an FY loss. Toyota. And when Pioneer posted FY loss after FY loss until shutting down proprietary manufacturing this lot said "Thanks for the brilliant products, Pioneer!" The criticisms are all a bit self serving!

Despite high prices, there is always a place for the enthusiast! Think of all the people wearing the Ferrari badge on hats, shoes, and jackets who have a VW in the garage. I guess that while it's easy to come to grips with never owning a Ferrari, Bang & Olufsen is still partially attainable. Sort of like Louis Vuitton, where you may save up for a briefcase, but may never plunk down 5 figures for a custom trunk. 

Our enthusiasts seem to be engaged mostly in the second hand market, which always confuses me when they crow about the current product mix and its technological competitiveness. People with Avants, BeoVision 3s, MXs and the like sitting in their living rooms should be the least worried! None of these TVs are anywhere close to current, but I know first hand how a 20 year old BeoVision can make a Pioneer Kuro owner jealous! It's proof positive that our products age well and remain good investments, even changing hands to enchant second and third owners through the years. 

We'll be OK. Read the book! We've been through worse.

TripEnglish:

Just thought I'd point out that Toyota is going to be posting an FY loss. Toyota. And when Pioneer posted FY loss after FY loss until shutting down proprietary manufacturing this lot said "Thanks for the brilliant products, Pioneer!" The criticisms are all a bit self serving!

Despite high prices, there is always a place for the enthusiast! Think of all the people wearing the Ferrari badge on hats, shoes, and jackets who have a VW in the garage. I guess that while it's easy to come to grips with never owning a Ferrari, Bang & Olufsen is still partially attainable. Sort of like Louis Vuitton, where you may save up for a briefcase, but may never plunk down 5 figures for a custom trunk. 

Our enthusiasts seem to be engaged mostly in the second hand market, which always confuses me when they crow about the current product mix and its technological competitiveness. People with Avants, BeoVision 3s, MXs and the like sitting in their living rooms should be the least worried! None of these TVs are anywhere close to current, but I know first hand how a 20 year old BeoVision can make a Pioneer Kuro owner jealous! It's proof positive that our products age well and remain good investments, even changing hands to enchant second and third owners through the years. 

We'll be OK. Read the book! We've been through worse.

We might recall that B&O was already riding the psychotic horse through the burning stable a long time before the 'credit crunch' set in and its precisely some of the comments posted here that have 'helped' B&O into its present state of demise.

Firstly, I think we should forget the relationship with 'exclusive' brands like Ferrari for example simply because their products fill a niche and they are extremely good at what they do- have you noticed pre sales fall off a cliff for Ferrari???  so no comparison with B&O there then!

I am certainly not aware of a 20 year old beovision that makes a Pioneer kuro owner jealous- I have a Kuro and  BV4 and an avant RF and the pioneer when calibrated is superior to all.

As for the famed SH value of B&O products- Originally I had a BV4 and BS2- cost c£11K I was offered £1800 by the dealer. Now my dealer will not accept any PX at all- they cant sell the SH stuff!

So the retained value only applies to some audio products and even those are on the wane.

The point is - and you have missed it again trip- is that the new vision products do NOT age well and DO NOT remain good investments- in fact they are a residual disaster.

The individuals I know that used to have a house full of B&O and can still afford to do so- will not buy the new products because of the poor price/performance ratio and the fact that they can buy each new variant of a pioneer kuro for 3 years and still have change!

However, we have to accept that some individuals will swear that black is indeed blue- as the hi def audio debate we had previously indicated.

 

355f:

The individuals I know that used to have a house full of B&O and can still afford to do so- will not buy the new products because of the poor price/performance ratio and the fact that they can buy each new variant of a pioneer kuro for 3 years and still have change!

Correct. My 40+ year old landlords are good examples. They have a high disposable income, 2 million pound property investment (all rented out) and used to be big B&O enthusiasts. Not now. They can't see the 'value' in the TVs. They bought a Beovision 6 a few years ago and it's completely superseded by a new Sony 32" which is 'HD ready' and has a Freeview module built in. They do not know what they should do with their Beovision 6. It can't accept Freeview without an external box, isn't 'HD ready' and they are slightly annoyed that a near £3K TV is worth nothing. I don't mean 'nothing' in terms of selling it on, I mean 'nothing' in terms of moving their TV to the next stage. It's easier to replace.

So, in this respect you are right. People are so scared about ever-changing technology improvements that they fear that they would spend £££££ on a B&O TV for it to be redundant in a few years. However, buy a Sony for £700 and simply replace for another in a few years, instead.

That's the problem. It's convincing these potential customers that a B&O TV still really does retain the 'value' you make in the initial investment.

Dear All:

During tough economic times, second guessing what may be or not is a fun/sad sport.  I agree with some of your comments in regards to the perceived lack of value with B&O latest offerings.  

However, this may be a good time for B&O to come out with innovative products.  Products that at least have the latest connectivity options.  Let's not forget that part of B&O's strategy is to keep the customer from mixing the A/V stuff--Prevents future sales.   

I do not have millions of USD to throw at the latest B&O gear; nonetheless, I have appreciated the value they offered: Excellent quality, functionality, sound, & style.  Their products were not the 'throw away' kind.  The built quality was easy to see & feel.   Lately, their products have lacked the sense of getting a little more for what you paid.  To me the price of not having 5 or more remotes on the table--Priceless.  

To survive you must innovate; look forward not back; respect your past history but don't be slave to it.  

Currently, the only item from B&O that I am saving for is the BL5.  One of the best speakers out there.  When was the last time if was updated?  I know many feel that it does not needed but the guts of it may be need some updating since its introduction in 2003.  

Innovation, Innovation, Innovation...

Dario 

 

Sorry, 355f, but missing the point is your department. Reducing a television to pure picture quality ignores the complex operating environment of modern video systems. Superb sound and single remote operation have existed in the B&O world since we first connected audio & video products. 

In the same post you quote (not just missing the point, but apparently entire sentences!) I specifically point out that older products are nowhere near current offerings by us or any other brand. The Point is that a good friend with a "top notch" setup (including a Kuro) often jokes that the MX in my office with a connected DVD1 is the easiest setup he's ever seen and can't believe that high end manufactures constantly miss The Point and focus myopically on performance while ease of use spirals downward! Now obviously he and I are not adversaries in any way and these comments are a little good natured fun at his own expense. I don't begrudge any other brand due kudos for whatever performance they may offer, but simply reiterate that they're built like utter crap and are practically unusable to 90% of the people that purchase them. To use yourself (clearly someone who knows how to connect AV systems and probably program a universal remote) as an example to generalize to the greater population is a bit like Tiger Woods saying, "C'mon! Just get the ball in the hole! Anyone can do it!"

Bang & Olufsen, through (hopefully) superb customer service and professional setup along with technological capability make operating and enjoying very complex systems a reality for any member of the family.

So to reiterate The Point: a television is more than a picture just like a car is more than an engine. While both are extremely important, you wouldn't want the worlds best engine to drag you along on roller skates, which is all a Kuro offers.

 

Here are a couple of links about these TVs that so many people here like to criticize as overpriced, outdated,  underperforming, inadequate connections, and a poor value. Strange how an independant reviewer has the totally opposite conclusion on every single point.

The first link lists the 5 best plasmas. Dare I say it at risk of offending the Kuro worshippers, the Beovision 4 is included in the top 5 right along with the Kuro.

The second link is a review of the BV9 from HDTV Solutions dated October 30, 2008.

The HDTV Solutions review notes the quality of the picture, the sound, the design,the technology, the number of connections, the total package, and yes even the value of it.

Sorry that an independant review is so favorable. 

 Bang & Olufsen BeoVision 4 - infoSync Reviews

Bang & Olufsen BeoVision 9 HDTV Review