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Latest post 02-21-2012 4:13 PM by Bentleyman. 567 replies.
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  • 02-19-2012 5:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    tournedos:
    You mean the Chinese have outsourced silk manufacturing to Italy? They did pretty well themselves for a couple of thousand years.

    Big SmileBig SmileStick out tongueStick out tongueStick out tongueStick out tongueStick out tongueStick out tongue

  • 02-19-2012 11:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    wesheltonj:
    One more thing about China.  As I have said before they make good in the trash can products.  As an example.  My 4th in under a year Samsung BD-D7500 Blu-ray player has just bit the dust.  These are $350 US each, that 4 in under a year.  And they only reason to buy this china crap, is because its PUC code for B&O.  It mounts real nice to my Beovision 10 with my STB brackets and looks good, but that just it, it only looks good.  I just hope that Samsung makes its panels better then their blu-ray players.

    Do exactly the same myself. Was not going to comment on the nationality of the player but yes, the Samsung BD-D7500 Blu-ray player is a load of cr@p and have gone through two of these myself.

  • 02-19-2012 3:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    wesheltonj:

    One more thing about China.  As I have said before they make good in the trash can products.  As an example.  My 4th in under a year Samsung BD-D7500 Blu-ray player has just bit the dust.  These are $350 US each, that 4 in under a year.  And they only reason to buy this china crap, is because its PUC code for B&O.  It mounts real nice to my Beovision 10 with my STB brackets and looks good, but that just it, it only looks good.  I just hope that Samsung makes its panels better then their blu-ray players.

     

     

    Samsung -isn't that from South Korea ? Confused

  • 02-19-2012 3:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Steffen:

    wesheltonj:

    One more thing about China.  As I have said before they make good in the trash can products.  As an example.  My 4th in under a year Samsung BD-D7500 Blu-ray player has just bit the dust.  These are $350 US each, that 4 in under a year.  And they only reason to buy this china crap, is because its PUC code for B&O.  It mounts real nice to my Beovision 10 with my STB brackets and looks good, but that just it, it only looks good.  I just hope that Samsung makes its panels better then their blu-ray players.

     

     

     

    Samsung -isn't that from South Korea ? Confused

     

    Well the brand maybe Korean, but the sticker says made in China. Kind of like B&O Play may be from Denmark, but the sticker says made in China.

  • 02-19-2012 3:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Oh My... Can somebody tell me what kind of af World we're living in, when even the Koreans are outsourcing to China...Confused

  • 02-19-2012 7:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Steffen:

    Oh My... Can somebody tell me what kind of af World we're living in, when even the Koreans are outsourcing to China...Confused

     

    It's a race to the bottom Steffen - the bottom of the 'how little we can pay the workers' scale that is Whistle

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-19-2012 10:07 PM In reply to

    • John
    • Not Ranked
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    • Joined on 08-15-2008
    • Melbourne Australia
    • Posts 64
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Steffen:

    Oh My... Can somebody tell me what kind of af World we're living in, when even the Koreans are outsourcing to China...Confused

     

    Not wishing to be overly political, but it's called globalisation - Capitalism at it's finest.... Hmm

     

    Best

     

    John... Cool

    No-one ever regretted buying quality.

  • 02-19-2012 10:14 PM In reply to

    • John
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    • Joined on 08-15-2008
    • Melbourne Australia
    • Posts 64
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    wesheltonj:

    One more thing about China.  As I have said before they make good in the trash can products.  As an example.  My 4th in under a year Samsung BD-D7500 Blu-ray player has just bit the dust.  These are $350 US each, that 4 in under a year.  And they only reason to buy this china crap, is because its PUC code for B&O.  It mounts real nice to my Beovision 10 with my STB brackets and looks good, but that just it, it only looks good.  I just hope that Samsung makes its panels better then their blu-ray players.

     

    Optical disk reading mechanisms generally are notoriously unreliable, however, I know that with my Sony Bluray player, the instructions state that it is to be placed on a flat and level surface.  

    I assume that this could be critical if it has a swing arm laser mechanism, perhaps less so if using a linear tracking arm/sled design.

    Nonetheless, I would think that vertical mounting of a player designed for a flat surface would not be conducive to an long and happy life.

    On the other hand, they could just be exceptionally cheap and cheerful, albeit good looking players as you say.

    HTH

    Best

    John... Cool

    No-one ever regretted buying quality.

  • 02-20-2012 2:34 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    It's a race to the bottom Steffen - the bottom of the 'how little we can pay the workers' scale that is Whistle

    China is far from the cheapest place for wages and Taiwan certainly isn't, where the majority of electronics manufacturing takes place. I think workers in Rochdale earn less, which is why call centres are moving from India to Burnley. I just hope the local Bentley-driving businessmen are helping the local youths get on the job market Whistle

    Let's worry about our 1 million <25-year-old unemployed than China.

  • 02-20-2012 5:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    A bit off-topic - but Rochdale is completely on its @rse - even Mc Donalds have closed their town centre outlet. 

    I live in-between Rochdale and Manchester, and like nearby Oldham ( which recently saw its Poundshop close down - surely a sign of how bad things areSad) Rochdale is just dying a slow, painful death.

    Like many post-industrial towns, there are many reasons - the macro economic problems that are beyond local control/influence made far worse, imo, by the underlying issues around housing - so much social housing was sold off ( Thanks for that, Thatcher Angry) that those in real need are now scrabbling around to live in overpriced, run down, privately owned rentals that were/should be state owned.

    So many council houses were sold that party fueled the housing bubble (a whole other thread) but the original tenants then sold on at a big, short term gain..... but now, wwhen real need for social housing is growing, its all in the hands of greedy landlords charging hundreds a week to the councils up and down the UK to house people in tens of thousands of buildings the council used to own .....scandalous.

    B&O Play will need to introduce a substantially cheaper line to appeal to many of the locals in such troubled towns..... or outsource to somewhere even cheaper than China to keep costs down......   Rochdale, perhaps ???

  • 02-20-2012 6:17 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    John:

    Steffen:

    Oh My... Can somebody tell me what kind of af World we're living in, when even the Koreans are outsourcing to China...Confused

     

    Not wishing to be overly political, but it's called globalisation - Capitalism at it's finest.... Hmm

     

    Best

     

    John... Cool

     

    I would claim that capitalism at its finest builds industry and community, creating local growth that eventually spans continents. It doesn't turn its back on its industrial base, shifting manufacturing elsewhere and expecting others to support the community it abandons.

     

  • 02-20-2012 7:02 AM In reply to

    • TWG
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Germany
    • Posts 950
    • Gold Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    John:

    Optical disk reading mechanisms generally are notoriously unreliable, however, I know that with my Sony Bluray player, the instructions state that it is to be placed on a flat and level surface.  

    I assume that this could be critical if it has a swing arm laser mechanism, perhaps less so if using a linear tracking arm/sled design.

    Nonetheless, I would think that vertical mounting of a player designed for a flat surface would not be conducive to an long and happy life.

    On the other hand, they could just be exceptionally cheap and cheerful, albeit good looking players as you say.

    HTH

    Best

    John... Cool



    a little bit off topic... but you are wrong! Perhaps the "modern" made in Cina mechanisms are crap, but the old school mechanisms are surprisingly reliable:

    Still running:

    - Accuphase DP-70 CD-Player    from 1987 (built like a tank, weight: 21kg)
    - Philips CD-104     from 1984
    - Technics SL-PG520A     from 1992
    - Bang & Olufsen Beosound 3000     from 2000
    - Sony DVP-S7700     from 1999
    - Kenwood DVF-9010     from 1999
    - Bang & Olufsen Beosound 1     from 2001

    And what's realy surprising: None of those units is Made in China and the companies survived... :-)

    So, there's only one reason for outsourcing to China: Make more profit! Nothing more.

     

  • 02-20-2012 7:31 AM In reply to

    • John
    • Not Ranked
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    • Joined on 08-15-2008
    • Melbourne Australia
    • Posts 64
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    TWG:
    a little bit off topic... but you are wrong! Perhaps the "modern" made in Cina mechanisms are crap, but the old school mechanisms are surprisingly reliable:

    I'd be very happy to be proven wrong, as I own a couple of ES Sony CD/DVD/SACD players and hope they last a while yet! Both the DVP-S9000ES and DVP-N9100ES use proprietary Sony mechanisms, so would trust they're well sorted re design and quality.  The one in the DVP-S9000ES was custom made for it, and hermetically seals when playing - it's a stunning piece of engineering and superbly built.

    My 'source' for my comment is hearsay; another forum I frequent, AVI HiFi, some years ago stopped making separates and now only make active loudspeakers with inbuilt DAC.  The Co-owner of the company, has stated on their forums that the CD player mechanisms they used in their players were a warranty and financial liablity, and that they had no end of problems with them and were 'generally notoriously unreliable - hence a decision to stop making them.

    As far as I'm aware they were using Phillips mechanisms, but don't hold me to that as I could be mistaken.

    Apologies for going briefly off topic...

    Best regards

    John... Cool

     

    No-one ever regretted buying quality.

  • 02-20-2012 11:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey:

    China is far from the cheapest place for wages and Taiwan certainly isn't, where the majority of electronics manufacturing takes place. I think workers in Rochdale earn less, which is why call centres are moving from India to Burnley. I just hope the local Bentley-driving businessmen are helping the local youths get on the job market

     

    Usual nonsense from the fella that thinks he's incredibly smart, mainly due, it seems, to the fact that he moved from the North East and now lives in Bath! (lol)....Confused  If outsourcing to China was not financially advantageous - why would any business even think for a second about doing it...? They wouldnt. You then go on to compare wage rates in electronics manfacturing with call centres moving from India to Burnley....Erm

    Workers in Rochdale you think earn less...? Less than what? China or Taiwan or India?. I'm no expert and I am not terribly interested in this - but I doubt that claim due mainly to the fact that minimum wage is applicable here in the UK, the very same minimum wage, by the way, that is in precious Bath even, shock horror! Surprise

    Reason why businesses are moving call centres back from places like India to UK locations is more due to the fact that foreign call centre staff with silly accents, and an inadequate, basic grasp of the english language were one of the most infuriating things for customers of those businesses to have to endure. As usual, this has taken a number of years for large companies to realise this and then actually react to it. Customer complaints about having to call india etc. and not getting proper help from someone who can barely understand english started to become one of the most complained about things and companies are now starting to actually advertise the fact that they have UK based call centres to help customers - now making this a selling point for their brand/service. A major mobile phone company for example I was reading about has been losing so many customers due to the fact they have/had india based call centres - customers were calling up and immediately asking the operator 'where are you speaking from please?' When the answer came back 'India, sir', the customers would hang up and then cancel their entire contract at the earliest opportunity! That is why more and more companies are actually advertising on tv commercials they now have UK based call centres.

    I'm not in the slightest bit interested in youth unemployment wether that be in Rochdale or the UK as a whole or on planet earth. This site is about Bang and Olufsen, and this debate in-particular should be about if outsourcing (wherever that location happens to be) will damage the image, reputation and exclusivity of this brand name over time, and reduce the overall quality of the products. 

     

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-20-2012 1:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    soundproof:
    I would claim that capitalism at its finest builds industry and community, creating local growth that eventually spans continents. It doesn't turn its back on its industrial base, shifting manufacturing elsewhere and expecting others to support the community it abandons.

    It does. Good to see at least someone recognizes this.

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 02-20-2012 4:19 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
    • Not Ranked
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    • Joined on 10-25-2007
    • San Francisco, CA, USA
    • Posts 70
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Moxxey – The majority of consumer electronics manufacturing these days takes place on mainland China not Taiwan. When Taiwan did have lower wages it did take place there. Nowadays Taiwan for the past 10-15 years has been mainly focused on high end electronics manufacturing. Such as: High end keyboards, high end scanners, etc... The wages in Taiwan as I mentioned are five times more than in mainland China. This is the reason why hardly anyone outsources to Taiwan (B&O being a prime example) anymore compared to China. Taiwan's quality is much higher than mainland China's and politics aside many consider it a different country (at least the Taiwanese do, and Taiwan used to be a member of the UN Security Council until China kicked them out when they decided they only needed one “Chinese” member). 

    How will we focus on our 1 million <25 year old unemployed? By supporting the companies that outsource? Companies that could employ those unemployed persons in manufacturing? And please don't give me the baloney that nobody in the UK or elsewhere in the developed world doesn't want to work in manufacturing because if even ¼ of them are willing then that's already a lot of people! If we as consumers all demand goods that are not outsourced, then companies will be forced to produce on their own land... Many hundreds of thousands of companies still do, just that it's become the reserve of mostly high class/high quality or professional goods.

    Folkdeejay – Jokes aside, there is no way that Rochdale can be cheaper to manufacture than China. In fact China is one of the cheapest places to manufacture, there aren't many countries that are cheaper with the infrastructure in place that China has. Also B&O could sell its products for even cheaper that they produce in China and still make a profit. They don't want to sell too cheap in fear of their brand image dying, too bad that outsourcing and releasing a cheap Play line has already damaged their brand image...

    Since you hate Thatcher so much, I am really surprised that you agree with her policies of outsourcing. Maybe you don't, but obviously you have been arguing for outsourcing and not against it for most of the post. You do realise that it was thanks to her neoliberal policies, to demolishing trade barriers, to stopping government support of many industries, that many companies were able or many would say forced to (due to competition) to outsource. It was the same thing with Reagan. They were both neoliberalists... Her rein coincided with that of China's own trade liberalization in 1979.

    To top this off the reason why China managed to build up its factories and industries is exactly because of government funding and subsidization. Something that Thatcher and Reagan weren't too keen on. Even today many new factories in China are built thanks to the Chinese government subsidizing them. Perhaps if that was the case in the US/UK and much of Europe then many companies would not outsource. The government only subsidizes big industry such as steel and cotton in the US, and heritage such as Harris Tweed in the UK. In China the government will subsidize many different types of factories. There is a lot to be blamed on both the government for letting companies outsource, the companies for their greed (or survival as some of you put it, although it's more often the case of greed), and the consumers for accepting the status quo.

    Soundproof – I couldn't agree more with you.

    People who don't care where their money goes to when buying something are either ignorant or calous or both. We all have a choice, and we choose where we invest our money, not just in a particular product. A race to the bottom as many have mentioned has been happenning for a while now...

  • 02-21-2012 3:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:
    I'm not in the slightest bit interested in youth unemployment wether that be in Rochdale or the UK as a whole or on planet earth.

     

    That's a shame - because if it continues the way its going, we will all be affected.  No-one is immune from the effects of a 'lost generation' of people suffering 20, 30 or 40% unemployment.  In Spain, its nudging 50%.

    Inevitable impact of local/national crime levels, future health levels, and the fact that huge numbers of under 30's simpy never experience the social/financial interactions that come with being a worker.

    In summary... lock up your Bentley.Unsure

     

     

  • 02-21-2012 4:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    folkdeejay:

    That's a shame - because if it continues the way its going, we will all be affected.  No-one is immune from the effects of a 'lost generation' of people suffering 20, 30 or 40% unemployment.  In Spain, its nudging 50%.

    Inevitable impact of local/national crime levels, future health levels, and the fact that huge numbers of under 30's simpy never experience the social/financial interactions that come with being a worker.

     

    Yes of course I agree with the fact that the deteriorating global economy (in many places) is a very bad thing. I did not really mean to sound callous or unconcerned about the worrying spiral of soaring unemployment. Things are very bad for a growing number of populations across many communities and countries - and this cannot be in any way described as a welcome thing.

    I was really meaning that the whole point of this thread was about how outsourcing may possibly have a detrimental effect of the B&O brand and image. It may be a very good thing for the B&O balance sheet and the B&O shareholders, but is that the be all and end all? 

    folkdeejay:

    In summary... lock up your Bentley.Unsure

     

    Laughing Dont worry, it's locked, alarmed and stored away safe and sound - in a heated/air conditioned (temp controlled at a constant +5c), de-humidified and carpeted garage space Laughing

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

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