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  • 02-05-2012 9:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Jonathan:

    So would you buy a high end Chinese label that's made in China?

    If I felt it was made to better standards, better quality, with better materials than an equivilent product in Developed countries. If the company were completely transparent about their manufacturing process and product and materials used. If they paid their workers decent wages and gave them decent working conditions with benifits. The product would also have to be quite unique and significantly different than an equivilent product manufactured in my own country in order for me not to want to support my own economy and workforce. Then, I might consider buying a Chinese product. I, however, do not know of any products from China or any developing countries that meet those requirements or even come close... 

     

    Why does it have to be "..made to better standards, better quality, with better materials than an equivilent product in Developed countries." Why couldn't it be made to the same standards, the same quality and the same materials as an equivalent product made in developed countries?

    "The product would also have to be quite unique and significantly different than an equivilent product manufactured in my own country in order for me not to want to support my own economy and workforce." -  Does this mean that you ONLY buy American products that are meade in America?

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-05-2012 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    see below

  • 02-05-2012 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No.  Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.

    If B&O wants to outsource, just stick with CZ.  Even Leica has a plant in Portugal.  I do not like that my Beo remote was made in CZ, but I understand B&O has to control cost and maintain profit.

    In the USA, Levi's became a "marketing company" moving production to others and just putting on a label.  Seeing the demand for american made Levi's, now they charge $100 per pair, verse when they were $30 a few years ago.

  • 02-05-2012 10:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    wesheltonj:

    Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No.  Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.

    If it were made to the exact same standard with the exact same materials and it was exactly the same, why would it matter where it was made? I don't see the difference being made in China as opposed to being made in Czechoslovakia..

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-06-2012 2:27 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    Look at prices of higher end cars, higher end real estate, quality jewellery, quality watches, designer clothes, higher end hotel room rates, art prices etc etc. Prices in these luxury goods markets only go up, never down.

    You have successfully identified why these markets differ in general from consumer electronics!

    For those keen on repeating the Rolls Royce analogy, B&O are also selling in China - the difference is RR is doing very well while B&O are struggling to break even! There were many posts several years ago when B&O seemed to make a big push to go after the Chinese and Russians (to the detriment of its european customer base, it was felt at the time).

    They need to sell enough product at sufficent margin in order to make money and it's not happening at the moment! Doubless it will pick up when (if?) the economy ever improves but that looks a very long way off at the moment. These higher volume products can only help.

    Perhaps more posts focusing on the situation as it stands rather than "what ifs" and "what could've been"  would be more productive, for instance, given their current situation, what would you do next? Dkatz - during this difficult recession period, having recently suffered a large loss, and bearly breaking even.........what would you do to improve the profitiablity of the company in order than it see out the slump and set the company in good stead for the future?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-06-2012 12:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:
    To be honest much of Apples technology has come from someone else. An example is that the Tablet PC was introduced by Bill Gates in 2002 and Steve Jobs only introduced the iPad in 2010, nobody cared about the Tablet PC yet everyone started going crazy over the iPad. In essence Apple only improved and made things more user friendly, not necessarily invented them.

    That is exactly the point IMHO. Innovation is not only about inventing new technology but also about making the technology acceptable and even the marketing of it. Without those you're lost.

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 02-06-2012 4:11 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan – I have yet to see any products that even match the standards, much less exceed them coming out of China. The reason I said better, is because it should be better in order for me to want to buy it from China rather than from my own country or from Europe which is established in high quality manufacture. I don't only buy American products but I try to for many things in order to support the economy in which I live. I don't believe that any country can be completely self sustainable these days and it shouldn't be. Each country is the best for their own things, I don't think America could be as good as Italy or France for Tailoring, or as Italy or England for car manufacture, hence why I have mostly Italian clothing, and an English car, because I think they are the best. However, most parts I buy for my car are American, so is my casual clothing (American Apparel), etc... But even if there was something from China that met those standards, I still wouldn't want to support the kind of labour conditions and pay that they have in China, so until the whole system there changes, I won't be buying anything from there...

     

    I explained the difference between China and Czech already many times – Czech has 10 times the wages of China plus EU labour laws and working conditions, and social and direct benefits. On top of that B&O has their own factory with their own workers that they trained in Czech but in China it's not even B&O who makes it! Therefore Czech B&O products are made to the same standards as Struer in my opinion as it's their own factory. Had B&O opened their own factory in China, trained those employees themselves through apprenticeship schemes, paid them decent wages and had good working hours, used better quality plastics and materials as they did in their Czech and Danish products, then it could have been of a similar quality... but it wasn't!

     

    Wesheltonj – Leica has a plant in Portugal but they have ceased camera production there due to quality control issues and it was their own factory! They make certain parts for their Camera's there now, which they then ship to Germany for assembly.

     

    Puncher – If my company wasn't doing well, I would try to market my products better. The move to sell at Apple stores was a good one, so was the integration of a dock. I'm not refuting this, but outsourcing is something I would refuse to do. In the case of B&O I would manufacture those products in my own factory in Czech, used much better quality materials, and perhaps made it a bit more unique than it is. Again the beauty of the BS1 was the way the antenna and CD player opened up, just like the Ouverture/2300/3200 with the sliding door, etc... That gimmick alone made many people want one. I feel that the BS8 and Beolit 12 should have had something unique, more of a daring design and with something like I described, something that differentiated it from other similar docks. That along with it being made in Europe, which I would have used in the advertising as the only dock that was made in Europe would have saved face for B&O. All those things combined would have made it more successful, and even though it would have cost more to manufacture in Czech. To be honest, if I was in charge I would know the break down of cost of manufacture and know how much profit I would be making per unit. For example if it cost $100-200 to produce (versus say $25-50 in China) I could sell it for $1000 and still make a hefty profit and have it be cheaper than other B&O products... Again, I don't know the figures, but I believe that B&O would still have made a decent profit producing the product in Czech and marketing it as a European made product.

  • 02-06-2012 4:54 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Puncher – If my company wasn't doing well, I would try to market my products better. The move to sell at Apple stores was a good one, so was the integration of a dock. I'm not refuting this, but outsourcing is something I would refuse to do. In the case of B&O I would manufacture those products in my own factory in Czech, used much better quality materials, and perhaps made it a bit more unique than it is. Again the beauty of the BS1 was the way the antenna and CD player opened up, just like the Ouverture/2300/3200 with the sliding door, etc... That gimmick alone made many people want one. I feel that the BS8 and Beolit 12 should have had something unique, more of a daring design and with something like I described, something that differentiated it from other similar docks. That along with it being made in Europe, which I would have used in the advertising as the only dock that was made in Europe would have saved face for B&O. All those things combined would have made it more successful, and even though it would have cost more to manufacture in Czech. To be honest, if I was in charge I would know the break down of cost of manufacture and know how much profit I would be making per unit. For example if it cost $100-200 to produce (versus say $25-50 in China) I could sell it for $1000 and still make a hefty profit and have it be cheaper than other B&O products... Again, I don't know the figures, but I believe that B&O would still have made a decent profit producing the product in Czech and marketing it as a European made product.

     

    Am I correct in summarisng the above as - add more features, use more expensive materials, assemble at European rates and increase the price of an £875 iPod dock accordingly? Surely this would be a dock for existing customers only .............. at best!

    How would a £1000+ iPod dock attract the new customers and additional sales that is desperately required?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-06-2012 5:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

     

    Jonathan – I have yet to see any products that even match the standards, much less exceed them coming out of China. The reason I said better, is because it should be better in order for me to want to buy it from China rather than from my own country or from Europe which is established in high quality manufacture. I don't only buy American products but I try to for many things in order to support the economy in which I live. I don't believe that any country can be completely self sustainable these days and it shouldn't be. Each country is the best for their own things, I don't think America could be as good as Italy or France for Tailoring, or as Italy or England for car manufacture, hence why I have mostly Italian clothing, and an English car, because I think they are the best. However, most parts I buy for my car are American, so is my casual clothing (American Apparel), etc... But even if there was something from China that met those standards, I still wouldn't want to support the kind of labour conditions and pay that they have in China, so until the whole system there changes, I won't be buying anything from there...

     

    I explained the difference between China and Czech already many times – Czech has 10 times the wages of China plus EU labour laws and working conditions, and social and direct benefits. On top of that B&O has their own factory with their own workers that they trained in Czech but in China it's not even B&O who makes it! Therefore Czech B&O products are made to the same standards as Struer in my opinion as it's their own factory. Had B&O opened their own factory in China, trained those employees themselves through apprenticeship schemes, paid them decent wages and had good working hours, used better quality plastics and materials as they did in their Czech and Danish products, then it could have been of a similar quality... but it wasn't!

     

    Dkatz, you obviously don't know much about manufacturing in China (or anywhere in the world for that matter). The quality that comes out of Chinese factories these days is often better than anywhere in the world! Therefore, you should be buying more Chinese made goods. You cannot increase wages in a developing nature 10x overnight. There needs to be slow adjustment. For example: if workers earn $10 a day normally, then suddenly one day the employer says "here, I'm going to pay you $100 a day now!" the employees would not show up for work for ten days. The would suddenly have 1o days worth of pay for one days work.

    If we all stopped buying products made in China, all of these workers you so desperately want to save will be out of a job. The wages you so desperately want increased will not exist at all. The shift towards a more capatalist culture will evaporate. There is a section of China that is now leading the world, and soon China will be the most powerful nation in the world. This means that the list of things they already do better than the rest of the world will get longer and longer.

    You need to learn that there are different cultures in the world, and you need to learn to respect these cultures and the fact that they do things differently. You can't expect Muslims to drink alcohol because the liquor industry is underperforming, or expect Jewish people to eat pork just because you think pig farmers are getting a raw deal. People in different countries and different cultures do things differently. They also have different ways of life, and don't need to buy $1000 pieces of clothing or drive flashy cars. You need to respect the Chinese way of life, rather than try to 'solve' these problems you think they may or may not have.

    You say that B&O should open their own factory there and train the staff through apprentice schemes. Should they then wait 4 years so that for each new product they make they put all the staff through apprentice schemes?? This is laughable! You cannot learn the manufacturing industry through a textbook, the real world is a different place. You really have your head in the sand, and if you were to be in control of a company it would go bust within weeks. You clearly do not demonstrate any business sense. Your 'plan' is to increase costs on manufacturing a product? The production costs you use for an example are not real world sorts of figures. If the Chinese cost is $25-50, then the European cost would be $500+. Why would you instruct a company to not save money to this sort of level? That's just absurd. If you want a company to survive, it needs to make money! This is a very simple thing to consider. B&O is not a not-for-profit organisation! 

    The fact that you single out China reeks of snobbery or racism (or both), as you really have no grounds for abstaining from Chinese made products. Your arguments have been continually proven to be baseless, yet time and again you choose to ignore everything that everyone else has said despite the evidence they produce that refutes what you say.

    P.S Does Britian even have a car manufacturing industry? British cars are terrible, the best cars come out of Germany and Japan. The only British cars I can think of are TVR, Ariel, Morgan. Hardly world beating cars there... (sorry to the Brits who read this)

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-06-2012 5:58 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Puncher:

    Am I correct in summarisng the above as - add more features, use more expensive materials, assemble at European rates and increase the price of an £875 iPod dock accordingly? Surely this would be a dock for existing customers only .............. at best!

    How would a £1000+ iPod dock attract the new customers and additional sales that is desperately required?

    Not neccesarily more features but something gimmicky that draws many people to B&O products in the first place. It's what made the Beosound Ouverture and Century so succesful and many other B&O products. This would draw people to it as it would be unique (although it looks a little bit different than most docks, it's still pretty generic looking imho). I didn't say use more expensive materials, in fact they could possibly save costs by producing the plastics and metals in their own factory (as they do for many of their own products) instead of buying them from somewhere. I would possily use some more metal as well to make it look more expensive than the plasticky look that the BS8 has. Those little legs alone look like they could break off in a sinch and it looks cheap overall, something that's not good for a 900 pound unit.

    It would not be average European rates, much less than most European countries in fact. Assembly in Czech is 5 times less than it is in Denmark, hence why B&O opened a factory there in the first place but it would allow them to advertise that it was made in Europe and could possibly even apply for European subsidies of some sort (never hurts to try, some companies that aren't doing well do exactly that and many Japanese car companies manufacture in Europe thanks to those subsidies as well as tax and import duty benifits). 1000GBP vs. 900GBP is not much of a difference, in fact someone who is willing to pay 900 would probably pay 1000, especially if better plastics/metals were used and it was made in Europe. Right now it doesn't look expensive enough to me and many other people, and looking at it even many people on the forum say it's overpriced. I don't think it would be the case if they used better plastics and metals, changed the design a bit and added a nice feature. The fact that it's made in Europe will only help with sales if it's advertised.

    Also you have to remember that it is more expensive in the UK than the US, and the UK is not the only market for this or many B&O products. In fact it's much cheaper in the US due to lower taxes and a different exchange rate to the DKK/Euro than the pound. So if it's 900GBP in the UK, it can sell for 1000USD in the US which is only 632GBP... Actually most people get paid about the same in USD in the UK and US for many similar jobs, for example in administration I am getting the same salary in the US as I was getting in the UK, actually in today's exchange rate I am earning about $10,000 more dollars per year in the US for the same job even though everything is much less expensive.

    The US is a huge market for B&O, probably bigger than the UK and people often look at where something is made here. In fact they are quite a bit more transparent here than in the UK. So if they knew that the unit was made in Europe people would be more likely to part with $1200 for one rather than $1000 for something made in China. Here in the US many people would see it as a much better deal!

  • 02-07-2012 8:11 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Not neccesarily more features but something gimmicky that draws many people to B&O products in the first place. It's what made the Beosound Ouverture and Century so succesful and many other B&O products. This would draw people to it as it would be unique (although it looks a little bit different than most docks, it's still pretty generic looking imho). I didn't say use more expensive materials, in fact they could possibly save costs by producing the plastics and metals in their own factory (as they do for many of their own products) instead of buying them from somewhere. I would possily use some more metal as well to make it look more expensive than the plasticky look that the BS8 has. Those little legs alone look like they could break off in a sinch and it looks cheap overall, something that's not good for a 900 pound unit.

    It would not be average European rates, much less than most European countries in fact. Assembly in Czech is 5 times less than it is in Denmark, hence why B&O opened a factory there in the first place but it would allow them to advertise that it was made in Europe and could possibly even apply for European subsidies of some sort (never hurts to try, some companies that aren't doing well do exactly that and many Japanese car companies manufacture in Europe thanks to those subsidies as well as tax and import duty benifits). 1000GBP vs. 900GBP is not much of a difference, in fact someone who is willing to pay 900 would probably pay 1000, especially if better plastics/metals were used and it was made in Europe. Right now it doesn't look expensive enough to me and many other people, and looking at it even many people on the forum say it's overpriced. I don't think it would be the case if they used better plastics and metals, changed the design a bit and added a nice feature. The fact that it's made in Europe will only help with sales if it's advertised.

    Also you have to remember that it is more expensive in the UK than the US, and the UK is not the only market for this or many B&O products. In fact it's much cheaper in the US due to lower taxes and a different exchange rate to the DKK/Euro than the pound. So if it's 900GBP in the UK, it can sell for 1000USD in the US which is only 632GBP... Actually most people get paid about the same in USD in the UK and US for many similar jobs, for example in administration I am getting the same salary in the US as I was getting in the UK, actually in today's exchange rate I am earning about $10,000 more dollars per year in the US for the same job even though everything is much less expensive.

    The US is a huge market for B&O, probably bigger than the UK and people often look at where something is made here. In fact they are quite a bit more transparent here than in the UK. So if they knew that the unit was made in Europe people would be more likely to part with $1200 for one rather than $1000 for something made in China. Here in the US many people would see it as a much better deal!

    OK, I'm done, I have nothing more to add. I'm sure none of this occured to B&O at the time they decided it was necessary to outsource, why not jot it down on a postcard and send it to Tue - I'm sure it'll be a revelation.

     

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-07-2012 9:02 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Please don't keep encouraging this guy, it's not even funny any more.

    In fact he is pissing me off to such an extent that I may just never buy anything American ever again.

    He is talking the same anti-capitalist crap that we hear from those idiots who are currently living in tents near the entrance to St Pauls Cathedral. He may even be living in the same sort of commune on Wall Street or in other big US cities. Just a bunch of jerks who are critical of the system that paid for their education.

    I will send Tue a message to let him know that there is a guy in America who knows exactly how to turn B&O around. I expect him to say " Oh no, not that idiot Dkatz that I have been reading about on BeoWorld".

    I bet they are all wetting themselves in Struer.................... that's what happens when you laugh too much.

    Regards Graham

  • 02-07-2012 9:24 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    joeyboygolf:

    Please don't keep encouraging this guy, it's not even funny any more.

    In fact he is pissing me off to such an extent that I may just never buy anything American ever again.

    Well, I can tell you as an established British company with key brands, we simply can't do business in America. They don't take British companies seriously (too small etc). I have a lot of respect for America, but there's a lot of blinkered arrogance over there and sometimes this arrogance appears on this board, too. American's often forget their very short history, the reason they are even in their country and so on. They easily forget that America was developed almost "ready made" from an already culturally established territory/ies.

    It's very easy to look from your established flat-packed country and look at others, with far more history and turmoil, and tell them how they should be running their lives.

    We can export our brands all over the world, apart from the States. I can tell you, that doing business in Australia with Australian's is the easiest and most enjoyable transaction ever, yet they keep themselves to themselves and have a thriving economy.

    And if you want to complain to my boss, don't bother, as the buck stops with me. I can say what I want :)

  • 02-07-2012 10:20 AM In reply to

    • Chris
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    INCOMINGNo - thumbs down

    A Beovision 10-40 in black and red fret on order, Beo4, Beo6, many A8's, a pair of white and yellow Form 2's, Beocom 4, 28 inch Avant RF DVD, Apple TV and a wife that loves this stuff as much as i do! 

  • 02-07-2012 10:48 AM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    I would possily use some more metal as well to make it look more expensive than the plasticky look that the BS8 has. Those little legs alone look like they could break off in a sinch and it looks cheap overall, something that's not good for a 900 pound unit.

    Obviously, you've never screwed those two little legs, made of metal, to the back of the speakers of BeoSound 8? The legs are VERY sturdy, indeed, and practically disappear when looking at BS8 -- resulting in the floating design B&O wanted. The legs, and the way they are attached, is perfectly in line with quality that can be expected from B&O :) Not to mention the metallic middle console, the metallic rims surrounding the speakers, the sturdy, exchangeable speaker covers -- that's quality. And have a closer look at how the BeoSound 8 is assembled -- it's very well built, even meticulously for the price. You should also really spend some time listening to it, in a home environment, with a correct setting for the sound. After you've done all that, you can speak of the quality of BS8 with some credibility.

    As for your discussion about outsourcing, having followed this thread and the circles in which the discussion goes, I think you have even less merit and credibility on that topic. You even fail to see why, for example, most camera manufacturers produce certain products in Japan, and some other products in China. Quality is not the prime reason. Hint: have a look at the history of those companies, their production lines and the volume of what is produced and where. Apply the same principle to B&O.

     

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-07-2012 10:51 AM In reply to

    • symmes
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    @ Moxxey Yeah, America sucks.  

  • 02-07-2012 10:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    First, let me start off by saying that I essentially agree with the concept that B&O should stick to manufacturing in Europe.  Here is why:

    1.  The Czech Republic is located in that part of Europe that has a long history of electronics innovation, i.e. think Tesla, to name just one.  As such, electronics is imbued in their culture.  Experience, a long history and an integrity towards manufacturing is much more a part of the basic manufacturing philsophy in Europe, and to some extent in other industrialized countries, than it is in China.  These are qualities that sometimes are just not easily trained, so it may be quite a number of years before that takes place in countries like China, sorry to say.

    2.  With all due respect, I look to China for fine ceramic antiquities, think Ming dynasty porcelain.  Most any such items produced before the Cultural Revolution (CR) were of very high quality without a doubt.  That is because of the history, and a long developed experience, by the Chinese in certain fields.  Look at their pen and ink works of art.  They are beautiful and refined.  Look at the jade work, before the CR.  A large part of the problem was the CR.  It wiped out alot of the basic regard that society had for traditional views and the arts, not to mention the individual drive and desire to invent and be creative for individual purposes, and not for the state.  Yes, China is a large, diverse country, but the ever so present "invisible", yet not so really invisible, hand of the state is always lurking there in the background.  We see this more and more in the USA where there is too much regulation, where various regulatory agencies want to come into a company and actually order a company to change their label because it states "Co." instead of "Company".  I kid you not.  This happened to a local manufacturing company called Sprecher Brewing in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  It is total ridiculous.  Thus, many companies move their manufacturing out of the USA.

    And I wouldn't beat up on the Katz fellow, because he is entitled to his viewpoint.  In fact, it should be carefully considered, simply because he is having such a strong and vociferous response to him.  Diversity of opinion and a serious regard for it makes the discussion healthy and keeps it real... as they say in the USA.

    Please, be nice to everyone.

  • 02-07-2012 11:19 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    waltoninn:

    First, let me start off by saying that I essentially agree with the concept that B&O should stick to manufacturing in Europe.  Here is why:

    1.  The Czech Republic is located in that part of Europe that has a long history of electronics innovation, i.e. think Tesla, to name just one.  As such, electronics is imbued in their culture.  Experience, a long history and an integrity towards manufacturing is much more a part of the basic manufacturing philsophy in Europe, and to some extent in other industrialized countries, than it is in China.  These are qualities that sometimes are just not easily trained, so it may be quite a number of years before that takes place in countries like China, sorry to say.

    2.  With all due respect, I look to China for fine ceramic antiquities, think Ming dynasty porcelain.  Most any such items produced before the Cultural Revolution (CR) were of very high quality without a doubt.  That is because of the history, and a long developed experience, by the Chinese in certain fields.  Look at their pen and ink works of art.  They are beautiful and refined.  Look at the jade work, before the CR.  A large part of the problem was the CR.  It wiped out alot of the basic regard that society had for traditional views and the arts, not to mention the individual drive and desire to invent and be creative for individual purposes, and not for the state.  Yes, China is a large, diverse country, but the ever so present "invisible", yet not so really invisible, hand of the state is always lurking there in the background.  We see this more and more in the USA where there is too much regulation, where various regulatory agencies want to come into a company and actually order a company to change their label because it states "Co." instead of "Company".  I kid you not.  This happened to a local manufacturing company called Sprecher Brewing in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  It is total ridiculous.  Thus, many companies move their manufacturing out of the USA.

    And I wouldn't beat up on the Katz fellow, because he is entitled to his viewpoint.  In fact, it should be carefully considered, simply because he is having such a strong and vociferous response to him.  Diversity of opinion and a serious regard for it makes the discussion healthy and keeps it real... as they say in the USA.

    Please, be nice to everyone.

     

    This is a proper and 'considered' response by waltoninn.

    We are all B&O lovers/customers - but we can all have our own differing opinions. Thats actually a very good thing.

    There is no need to get so heated and borderline offensive. Keep your dummies (pacifiers u.s. Wink) inside of your pram guys Big Smile

    Smile

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-07-2012 11:44 AM In reply to

    • Karla
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 08-19-2008
    • USA
    • Posts 81
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    waltoninn:

    First, let me start off by saying that I essentially agree with the concept that B&O should stick to manufacturing in Europe.  Here is why:

    1.  The Czech Republic is located in that part of Europe that has a long history of electronics innovation, i.e. think Tesla, to name just one.  As such, electronics is imbued in their culture.  Experience, a long history and an integrity towards manufacturing is much more a part of the basic manufacturing philsophy in Europe, and to some extent in other industrialized countries, than it is in China.  These are qualities that sometimes are just not easily trained, so it may be quite a number of years before that takes place in countries like China, sorry to say.

    2.  With all due respect, I look to China for fine ceramic antiquities, think Ming dynasty porcelain.  Most any such items produced before the Cultural Revolution (CR) were of very high quality without a doubt.  That is because of the history, and a long developed experience, by the Chinese in certain fields.  Look at their pen and ink works of art.  They are beautiful and refined.  Look at the jade work, before the CR.  A large part of the problem was the CR.  It wiped out alot of the basic regard that society had for traditional views and the arts, not to mention the individual drive and desire to invent and be creative for individual purposes, and not for the state.  Yes, China is a large, diverse country, but the ever so present "invisible", yet not so really invisible, hand of the state is always lurking there in the background.  We see this more and more in the USA where there is too much regulation, where various regulatory agencies want to come into a company and actually order a company to change their label because it states "Co." instead of "Company".  I kid you not.  This happened to a local manufacturing company called Sprecher Brewing in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  It is total ridiculous.  Thus, many companies move their manufacturing out of the USA.

    And I wouldn't beat up on the Katz fellow, because he is entitled to his viewpoint.  In fact, it should be carefully considered, simply because he is having such a strong and vociferous response to him.  Diversity of opinion and a serious regard for it makes the discussion healthy and keeps it real... as they say in the USA.

    Please, be nice to everyone.

    Are you referencing the Sprecher Brewing Company that makes their root beer with honey? If so, outstanding product and well with the search to go find it locally. 

    BTW: we have plenty of threads on this board about the wonders of Apple, which are "designed in California, made in China". I'm not seeing quality issues mentioned with their products. 

     

  • 02-07-2012 12:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    I wish some of you guys will please stop talking about the BS8 is some kind of bargain, you are just encouraging B&O. There are so many better systems out there in terms of performance and build quality and a third of the price. This product is pure fake and total rubbish. Sorry guys, you are stuck in your own little B&O world! You are very very silly if you think this system performs well. It's a disgrace!

  • 02-07-2012 12:23 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Tod Daniel:

    I wish some of you guys will please stop talking about the BS8 is some kind of bargain, you are just encouraging B&O. There are so many better systems out there in terms of performance and build quality and a third of the price. This product is pure fake and total rubbish. Sorry guys, you are stuck in your own little B&O world! You are very very silly if you think this system performs well. It's a disgrace!

    LOL Big Smile

    Yeah, we know your opinion, Tod.

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-07-2012 2:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz,

     

    Regarding movies on demand. This works for sure excellently from many vendors in the US, but try to access these with an IP address coming from outside the US.

     

    There's a world outside the US, and it is HUGE. Bigger than Texas. Big Smile

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-07-2012 2:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:

    wesheltonj:

    Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No.  Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.

     

    If it were made to the exact same standard with the exact same materials and it was exactly the same, why would it matter where it was made? I don't see the difference being made in China as opposed to being made in Czechoslovakia..

    Geography Police here, Czechoslovakia has never manufactured B&O, as it was split in 1992.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-07-2012 2:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    beocool:

    Dkatz:
    To be honest much of Apples technology has come from someone else. An example is that the Tablet PC was introduced by Bill Gates in 2002 and Steve Jobs only introduced the iPad in 2010, nobody cared about the Tablet PC yet everyone started going crazy over the iPad. In essence Apple only improved and made things more user friendly, not necessarily invented them.

    That is exactly the point IMHO. Innovation is not only about inventing new technology but also about making the technology acceptable and even the marketing of it. Without those you're lost.

    Yup, right on. I don't think Bill Gates did invent the tablet. There's been tablet computers in Sci-Fi. 

    What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-07-2012 3:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    bayerische:

    Jonathan:

    wesheltonj:

    Would I have bought a Beo10 if made in China. Hell No.  Unless of course it was the same price as a Samsung.

     

    If it were made to the exact same standard with the exact same materials and it was exactly the same, why would it matter where it was made? I don't see the difference being made in China as opposed to being made in Czechoslovakia..

    Geography Police here, Czechoslovakia has never manufactured B&O, as it was split in 1992.

     

    consider it a 'typo'...

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

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