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  • 02-07-2012 3:30 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    bayerische:
    What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.

    I'm not sure I know what good a tablet is in 2012 Big Smile

    Ages ago, I had an NCR 3125 tablet that came out in 1992 or so (no, I didn't spend any good money on it). It ran Windows for Pen Computing, a special version of Win 3.11 that was adapted for using a stylus and included surprisingly well working handwriting recognition. Operating times etc. were just about similar to any laptop of the time. The concept didn't catch on.

    -mika

  • 02-07-2012 4:17 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on 10-25-2007
    • San Francisco, CA, USA
    • Posts 70
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

     

    Jonathan – I actually know a lot about manufacturing both in China and many other countries. As mentioned I visited dozens of factories and workshops in the past few years, I wrote my dissertation on the topic and did a years of research on it and I have many friends and acquaintances that have their own factories and manufacture their own products in various countries from Japan to Europe to America. I also have a friend in China (used to be my flatmate) who is part owner of a factory that produces clothing for brands like H&M. He himself admits that the quality is not that great, but says that it is improving and in the future China will be producing to the same standards as many European made products. 

     

    I have yet to see anything that is being produced out of China that's better than a similar product I have seen in the Europe, Japan or the US. How can you tell me that I should be buying more Chinese goods? I can buy goods from any country I wish. It's my choice as a consumer! 

     

    I never said that China should suddenly up its salaries 10 times overnight and to assume that workers will only come in one day because they get a weeks salary in a day is just plain stupid. That would only be if they wanted to stay in the same poverty they are in now and highly unlikely. I think that the people working in China's factories are hard workers, and if you increase their salaries and decrease their work hours, they would only be happier and possibly produce even better quality goods without the spates of suicides.

     

    If we all stop buying goods made by western companies in China, perhaps China will begin to develop their own industries through internationally competitive companies and PROTECTIONISM as Korea and Japan had with their own companies (Samsung, LG, Kia, Hyundai, etc... for Korea and Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc... for Japan for example). If you knew about how nearly all countries in the world developed, well they didn't develop through what China is developing, it was through protectionism and creating their own companies whilst pretty much limited import of foreign products until their own became internationally competitive. 

     

    And what about the 10s of millions of manufacturing jobs that have been lost in the US alone in the past 20 years because of outsourcing to developing countries like China? Should I be more concerned with my own people (many of which are unemployed and also living in poverty) or with people in other countries? Maybe I should be supporting the rich factory owners who make millions in China from paying their employees almost nothing? And perhaps I should support the CEOs of these US companies that became billionaires thanks to laying all their manufacturing employees off and moving production to China?

     

    China is already the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily and economically. But who cares? They have the biggest separation between rich and poor, they have one of the lowest human development indexes, one of the highest rates of poverty in the world. Supporting the system that's in place is only fueling this even bigger. The separation between rich and poor in China is MUCH bigger now than it was in the 1970s even. The almost non existent middle class in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing makes up an extremely small amount of the total population. The wage rises of a 10-20 cents per year is also laughable because that hardly accounts for inflation and it would take China hundreds of years to reach the west at this rate, and they wouldn't anyways considering the wages are rising nearly everywhere in the world and in many countries at a much higher pace than China's. In fact China keeps its wages low on purpose in order for companies to stay there and not go to another developing country! It's a viscious cycle that is not economically viable in the long term for China.

     

    I respect that there are different cultures in the world, and I know about many of them. However, I think Muslims choosing not to drink alcohol or Jews not to eat Pork is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing, that has to do with religion. According to your statement, Poverty is an inherent cultural aspect of Chinese culture? In fact many rich Chinese do buy $1000 clothing items and drive Rolls Royces, nearly all the Chinese millionaires do and we've been discussing how these products are exactly aimed at the Noveau-Riche in China. Given the choice they would want all those things.

     

    You are saying that the Chinese way of life is employers paying measly wages to their employees whilst getting rich off of them working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That I should respect this insanely huge separation between rich and poor, and the fact that 1% of the population is rich and 99% are poor. That I should respect that this 99% want to live in these conditions and that it's Chinese culture. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. It is exactly because of this that I don't want to support it. I don't think I will solve China's problems as you say, but I would prefer not to support such a system, just as I would prefer not to support a dictator in some country that condemns its people to poverty. Every country can change, it's like saying that you should support America's Southern culture in the early days of Slavery, because that was the culture of the south. Should we still have slavery to revive that culture?

     

    I NEVER said that B&O should open their factory in China and get them to go through an apprenticeship scheme. I said that if B&O wanted the same quality as they have in their European factories they would have to have their own and train their workers accordingly and give them the same conditions. This is my opinion and I don't think that this should happen. This will never happen because once you price things out, it won't even be worth the move to China in that case, they might as well manufacture in Czech. 

     

    I singled out China as a country because it is the country where B&O outsourced! I have many grounds from abstaining from buying Chinese products as I mentioned before. How can you make me buy anything I don't want to buy? If I was really racist then I wouldn't want a better life for Chinese people or people in all developing countries (I am from a developing country myself in fact, Azerbaijan. This is about all developing countries, not just China, but we are using China as an example because that is where B&O is producing their entry level products).

     

    Most of what people have said has been based on opinion and not evidence. Quality is very subjective and to me, as mentioned I have yet to see anything of Chinese quality that is better than the best of European, Japanese or US. I have listed dozens of products, companies that are the best at what they do, that do not outsource. Many of your arguments lack reality and many on the forum have also proven your statements to be wrong.

     

    Can you answer me a simple question? If China is better at manufacturing than the west. Why is it that nearly every single high end or professional product is NOT manufactured there? Panasonic Toughbook for laptops, nearly all the highest end A/V equipment we mentioned in this post, Louis Vuitton and Hermes leather products, all professional video, film and photo production equipment (Leica, Hasselblad, Nikon D1, Canon 1D, 5D, 60D), etc...? OR even B&Os own mid-upper level products? If China was better than the west and manufacturing cost was so much less, SURELY all these professional and higher end grade products would be manufactured there too.. Or is every company director stupid and you alone are smart?

     

    P.S. Britain has a huge car manufacturing industry for your information. How can you even ask a question of whether it is existent? Even if many companies are foreign owned nearly all British cars are manufactured in Britain. They make some of the worlds best luxury and sports cars: Lotus, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, McLaren to name but a few... TVR went bust a few years ago for your information. I have yet to see anything from China with the offerings that Britain has in terms of car manufacture.

     

    From the fact that you have Made in China in your signature and that you talk so passionately about this. I am willing to assume you are taking this all rather personally. Perhaps you are Chinese yourself, living a nice luxury life in Australia, and manufacture yourself in China? I'm wondering how it would be if the tables were turned and you lived in the Chinese culture you talk about without material things? Perhaps you wouldn't be on this forum defending a $1000 iPod dock or buying B&O products. I doubt you could live that kind of life once you've experienced a different one and I am sure there is a reason you live in Australia and not China.

     

    Joeyboygolf – I am not anti-capitalist. I just prefer social capitalism of the sort that many Scandinavian countries have with social services, etc... I do not live in a tent, and I do not march on anti-anything campaigns. Nobody has paid for my education, in fact I am still paying off my student loans. I doubt that anyone from executive positions at B&O are reading this forum. I never said that what I offered was a solution, I know B&O is making more money now. There are other companies however, that don't only think about profit. If supporting your local community, your workers, caring about your corporate social responsibility, creating higher quality products, all of that is “hippie communist crap” as you would probably put it, then I really don't know what this world has come to. 

     

    You sure make a lot of assumptions without actually knowing me. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make me an “idiot.” In that case anyone who has a different opinion from you is an Idiot. So everyone who supports my opinions both in the forum and outside is an idiot? This forum is here for us to express our opinions not to insult other members!

     

    KMA – I would disagree with you in the fact that Quality is the prime reason for their manufacture in Japan and not China. Actually many of the lower end ones are produced in Philippines and Thailand but that's regardless of the point. I have talked to dozens of companies and they all claimed quality and the other reasons I mentioned on the forum such as control over development, etc... The higher end products I mentioned, many of them ARE mass produced on a huge scale, especially the D5 and D60. They could have easily made it in China or other countries in the same factory as their lower end products so it has nothing to due with volume. Perhaps for small A/V manufacturing it does, but China could cater to them if they really wanted it.

     

    Waltoninn – Thanks for your support and backing me up. I have heard a lot about how during the Cultural Revolution many artisans were killed or put in prison. They basically got rid of the whole crafts industry they once had replacing it with mass manufacturing. It is a bit similar to what happened to Russian lacquer-ware quality during the soviet union and many of the silver and gold-ware as well. It's almost like their attention to detail died off. In contrast, Japan has seen a cultural revolution of their own where artisan manufacturing has seen a growth. Look at a high quality Kimono that takes upto a year to make enough fabric for just one! Bespoke shoes that take 6 months to make by hand. Lacquer-ware, the best in the world in fact from Wajima, that takes many years to paint (I have a friend who is a lacquer artist in Japan and I visited his workshop including where they make lacquer necklaces for Tiffany's by hand!). 

     

    Tiffany's in fact is a company that refuses to outsource their manufacturing to developing countries. In fact, they even made a pen company that outsourced all their products stay in the US just to manufacture pens for Tiffany's. Their lacquer is the best in the world and comes from Wajima in Japan and is manufactured by artisans that I met and talked to. Their Jewelery comes from workshops in Italy and in the US, etc... There are obviously companies that still care about quality and supporting craftsmen and artisans.

     

  • 02-07-2012 5:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    tournedos:

    bayerische:
    What good would a tablet have been in 2002? Wifi was scarce, no high speed 3G, the processing power would have sucked to say the least, not to talk about the 30min? Battery time.

    I'm not sure I know what good a tablet is in 2012 Big Smile

    I agree, the iPad is hugely inflated. I use it as a remote for iTunes, on the can, and right now since my wife used my Macbook Air as a seat cushion yersterday! Big Smile

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-07-2012 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

     

    Jonathan – I actually know a lot about manufacturing both in China and many other countries. As mentioned I visited dozens of factories and workshops in the past few years, I wrote my dissertation on the topic and did a years of research on it and I have many friends and acquaintances that have their own factories and manufacture their own products in various countries from Japan to Europe to America. I also have a friend in China (used to be my flatmate) who is part owner of a factory that produces clothing for brands like H&M. He himself admits that the quality is not that great, but says that it is improving and in the future China will be producing to the same standards as many European made products. 

     

    I have yet to see anything that is being produced out of China that's better than a similar product I have seen in the Europe, Japan or the US. How can you tell me that I should be buying more Chinese goods? I can buy goods from any country I wish. It's my choice as a consumer! 

     

    I never said that China should suddenly up its salaries 10 times overnight and to assume that workers will only come in one day because they get a weeks salary in a day is just plain stupid. That would only be if they wanted to stay in the same poverty they are in now and highly unlikely. I think that the people working in China's factories are hard workers, and if you increase their salaries and decrease their work hours, they would only be happier and possibly produce even better quality goods without the spates of suicides.

     

    If we all stop buying goods made by western companies in China, perhaps China will begin to develop their own industries through internationally competitive companies and PROTECTIONISM as Korea and Japan had with their own companies (Samsung, LG, Kia, Hyundai, etc... for Korea and Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc... for Japan for example). If you knew about how nearly all countries in the world developed, well they didn't develop through what China is developing, it was through protectionism and creating their own companies whilst pretty much limited import of foreign products until their own became internationally competitive. 

     

    And what about the 10s of millions of manufacturing jobs that have been lost in the US alone in the past 20 years because of outsourcing to developing countries like China? Should I be more concerned with my own people (many of which are unemployed and also living in poverty) or with people in other countries? Maybe I should be supporting the rich factory owners who make millions in China from paying their employees almost nothing? And perhaps I should support the CEOs of these US companies that became billionaires thanks to laying all their manufacturing employees off and moving production to China?

     

    China is already the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily and economically. But who cares? They have the biggest separation between rich and poor, they have one of the lowest human development indexes, one of the highest rates of poverty in the world. Supporting the system that's in place is only fueling this even bigger. The separation between rich and poor in China is MUCH bigger now than it was in the 1970s even. The almost non existent middle class in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing makes up an extremely small amount of the total population. The wage rises of a 10-20 cents per year is also laughable because that hardly accounts for inflation and it would take China hundreds of years to reach the west at this rate, and they wouldn't anyways considering the wages are rising nearly everywhere in the world and in many countries at a much higher pace than China's. In fact China keeps its wages low on purpose in order for companies to stay there and not go to another developing country! It's a viscious cycle that is not economically viable in the long term for China.

     

    I respect that there are different cultures in the world, and I know about many of them. However, I think Muslims choosing not to drink alcohol or Jews not to eat Pork is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing, that has to do with religion. According to your statement, Poverty is an inherent cultural aspect of Chinese culture? In fact many rich Chinese do buy $1000 clothing items and drive Rolls Royces, nearly all the Chinese millionaires do and we've been discussing how these products are exactly aimed at the Noveau-Riche in China. Given the choice they would want all those things.

     

    You are saying that the Chinese way of life is employers paying measly wages to their employees whilst getting rich off of them working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That I should respect this insanely huge separation between rich and poor, and the fact that 1% of the population is rich and 99% are poor. That I should respect that this 99% want to live in these conditions and that it's Chinese culture. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. It is exactly because of this that I don't want to support it. I don't think I will solve China's problems as you say, but I would prefer not to support such a system, just as I would prefer not to support a dictator in some country that condemns its people to poverty. Every country can change, it's like saying that you should support America's Southern culture in the early days of Slavery, because that was the culture of the south. Should we still have slavery to revive that culture?

     

    I NEVER said that B&O should open their factory in China and get them to go through an apprenticeship scheme. I said that if B&O wanted the same quality as they have in their European factories they would have to have their own and train their workers accordingly and give them the same conditions. This is my opinion and I don't think that this should happen. This will never happen because once you price things out, it won't even be worth the move to China in that case, they might as well manufacture in Czech. 

     

    I singled out China as a country because it is the country where B&O outsourced! I have many grounds from abstaining from buying Chinese products as I mentioned before. How can you make me buy anything I don't want to buy? If I was really racist then I wouldn't want a better life for Chinese people or people in all developing countries (I am from a developing country myself in fact, Azerbaijan. This is about all developing countries, not just China, but we are using China as an example because that is where B&O is producing their entry level products).

     

    Most of what people have said has been based on opinion and not evidence. Quality is very subjective and to me, as mentioned I have yet to see anything of Chinese quality that is better than the best of European, Japanese or US. I have listed dozens of products, companies that are the best at what they do, that do not outsource. Many of your arguments lack reality and many on the forum have also proven your statements to be wrong.

     

    Can you answer me a simple question? If China is better at manufacturing than the west. Why is it that nearly every single high end or professional product is NOT manufactured there? Panasonic Toughbook for laptops, nearly all the highest end A/V equipment we mentioned in this post, Louis Vuitton and Hermes leather products, all professional video, film and photo production equipment (Leica, Hasselblad, Nikon D1, Canon 1D, 5D, 60D), etc...? OR even B&Os own mid-upper level products? If China was better than the west and manufacturing cost was so much less, SURELY all these professional and higher end grade products would be manufactured there too.. Or is every company director stupid and you alone are smart?

     

    P.S. Britain has a huge car manufacturing industry for your information. How can you even ask a question of whether it is existent? Even if many companies are foreign owned nearly all British cars are manufactured in Britain. They make some of the worlds best luxury and sports cars: Lotus, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, McLaren to name but a few... TVR went bust a few years ago for your information. I have yet to see anything from China with the offerings that Britain has in terms of car manufacture.

     

    From the fact that you have Made in China in your signature and that you talk so passionately about this. I am willing to assume you are taking this all rather personally. Perhaps you are Chinese yourself, living a nice luxury life in Australia, and manufacture yourself in China? I'm wondering how it would be if the tables were turned and you lived in the Chinese culture you talk about without material things? Perhaps you wouldn't be on this forum defending a $1000 iPod dock or buying B&O products. I doubt you could live that kind of life once you've experienced a different one and I am sure there is a reason you live in Australia and not China.

     

    Joeyboygolf – I am not anti-capitalist. I just prefer social capitalism of the sort that many Scandinavian countries have with social services, etc... I do not live in a tent, and I do not march on anti-anything campaigns. Nobody has paid for my education, in fact I am still paying off my student loans. I doubt that anyone from executive positions at B&O are reading this forum. I never said that what I offered was a solution, I know B&O is making more money now. There are other companies however, that don't only think about profit. If supporting your local community, your workers, caring about your corporate social responsibility, creating higher quality products, all of that is “hippie communist crap” as you would probably put it, then I really don't know what this world has come to. 

     

    You sure make a lot of assumptions without actually knowing me. Just because I have a different opinion than you does not make me an “idiot.” In that case anyone who has a different opinion from you is an Idiot. So everyone who supports my opinions both in the forum and outside is an idiot? This forum is here for us to express our opinions not to insult other members!

     

    KMA – I would disagree with you in the fact that Quality is the prime reason for their manufacture in Japan and not China. Actually many of the lower end ones are produced in Philippines and Thailand but that's regardless of the point. I have talked to dozens of companies and they all claimed quality and the other reasons I mentioned on the forum such as control over development, etc... The higher end products I mentioned, many of them ARE mass produced on a huge scale, especially the D5 and D60. They could have easily made it in China or other countries in the same factory as their lower end products so it has nothing to due with volume. Perhaps for small A/V manufacturing it does, but China could cater to them if they really wanted it.

     

    Waltoninn – Thanks for your support and backing me up. I have heard a lot about how during the Cultural Revolution many artisans were killed or put in prison. They basically got rid of the whole crafts industry they once had replacing it with mass manufacturing. It is a bit similar to what happened to Russian lacquer-ware quality during the soviet union and many of the silver and gold-ware as well. It's almost like their attention to detail died off. In contrast, Japan has seen a cultural revolution of their own where artisan manufacturing has seen a growth. Look at a high quality Kimono that takes upto a year to make enough fabric for just one! Bespoke shoes that take 6 months to make by hand. Lacquer-ware, the best in the world in fact from Wajima, that takes many years to paint (I have a friend who is a lacquer artist in Japan and I visited his workshop including where they make lacquer necklaces for Tiffany's by hand!). 

     

    Tiffany's in fact is a company that refuses to outsource their manufacturing to developing countries. In fact, they even made a pen company that outsourced all their products stay in the US just to manufacture pens for Tiffany's. Their lacquer is the best in the world and comes from Wajima in Japan and is manufactured by artisans that I met and talked to. Their Jewelery comes from workshops in Italy and in the US, etc... There are obviously companies that still care about quality and supporting craftsmen and artisans.

     

    I honestly think your aswers are too short.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-07-2012 5:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Excellent arguement and points made by Dkatz. Im with him all the way.

  • 02-07-2012 7:03 PM In reply to

    • symmes
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-21-2007
    • Freedonia
    • Posts 290
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Tod Daniel:

    Excellent arguement and points made by Dkatz. Im with him all the way.

    There 'ya go.  With an endorsement like that, how can you go wrong?   

  • 02-07-2012 9:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    symmes:

    Tod Daniel:

    Excellent arguement and points made by Dkatz. Im with him all the way.

    There 'ya go.  With an endorsement like that, how can you go wrong?   

     

    LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing that's one way to have all you've said undone in one line

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 1:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

     

    P.S. Britain has HAD a huge car manufacturing industry for your information. How can you even ask a question of whether it is existent? Even if many companies are foreign owned nearly all British cars (NOTE THESE ARE NOT BRITISH CARS, SEE BELOW) are manufactured in Britain. They make some of the worlds best luxury and sports cars:

    Lotus -MALAYSIAN,

    Rolls Royce - GERMAN,

    Bentley - GERMAN,

    Jaguar - INDIAN,

    McLaren to name but a few... TVR went bust a few years ago for your information. I have yet to see anything from China with the offerings that Britain has in terms of car manufacture. - I CLEARLY STATED THE BEST CARS IN THE WORLD COME FROM EITHER GERMANY OR JAPAN

     

     

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 2:38 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    waltoninn:

    1.  The Czech Republic is located in that part of Europe that has a long history of electronics innovation, i.e. think Tesla, to name just one.  As such, electronics is imbued in their culture.  Experience, a long history and an integrity towards manufacturing is much more a part of the basic manufacturing philsophy in Europe, and to some extent in other industrialized countries, than it is in China.  These are qualities that sometimes are just not easily trained, so it may be quite a number of years before that takes place in countries like China, sorry to say.

    2.  With all due respect, I look to China for fine ceramic antiquities, think Ming dynasty porcelain.  Most any such items produced before the Cultural Revolution (CR) were of very high quality without a doubt.  That is because of the history, and a long developed experience, by the Chinese in certain fields.  Look at their pen and ink works of art.  They are beautiful and refined.  Look at the jade work, before the CR. 

    While your historical views may be true (and Dkatz thinks they are an endorsement of his views on modern day outsourcing) I find the implication that it somehow means that the Czech Rupublic is now (almost genetically) more disposed to light engineering than China somewhat hard to believe. If that were so then would we expect most folk in the UK to have some sort of inate ability to design and build steam engines? - I think not.

    With regard to training, I'm always amazed at the Chinese headcount on under & postgraduate engineering courses in the UK, I can hardly guess how many there are in similar positions in China. I deal with Czech and Chinese manufacturing plants on a daily basis, the Czech Republic is ideally positioned in central Europe which is a major logistical advantage (which shouldn't be underestimated as a real reason to manufacture there) , other than that I could not separate them on quality or abilities.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-08-2012 9:36 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Somebody wake me up when this thread dies.

    In the meantime, I am going back to my reading...



  • 02-08-2012 10:45 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:
    I doubt that anyone from executive positions at B&O are reading this forum

     

    You would be surprised then - and a number contribute. Whether anyone has actually bothered to read the 20 pages of this thread is another matter but B&O do read  Beoworld. If they have any sense they will regard the vast majority as light entertainment but I know that the odd snippet is acted upon!

  • 02-08-2012 3:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:

    Rolls Royce - GERMAN,

    Bentley - GERMAN,

     

    Jonathan,

    Obviously the RR and Bentley marques are now, since 1998, owned by German companies. They are 'owned' by German companies. That does not make them German cars however, since they are made at Goodwood and Crewe, by an overwhelmingly British workforce.

    So, Rolls Royce was formed in 1904 in Manchester and 94 (ninety four) years later, a large german owned conglomerate bought them out. (This means financially and 'on paper') They keep production wholly within the UK with a predominantly british born workforce. So they have been assembling cars continuously (apart from during the World Wars I + II) for 108 years to date in England. Absolutely no hint of outsourcing involved.

    Does that make a Rolls-Royce a german car now? Hardly. Same applies to Bentley.

    I presume you are an Australian. As an Australian, if you had moved to say, China, 14 years ago to live/work would that mean that you are now Chinese? RR and Bentley cars have never been assembled outside of the UK, so I think your stretching it somewhat by claiming they are 'German Cars'.

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-08-2012 4:14 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on 10-25-2007
    • San Francisco, CA, USA
    • Posts 70
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Puncher – My point about Czech wasn't just about ability. Although they currently have a successful and thriving manufacturing industry of their own with their own cars such as Skoda as well as very high quality bohemian paper products and Czech crystal. My point was about fair wages, benefits, EU labour laws, and of course proximity as you mentioned. Although the biggest difference in quality would be the fact that companies are opening up THEIR OWN factories in Czech as B&O did. So it is NOT outsourcing. They are not asking another company to build to their specs, they are building to their own specs with their own workers that they trained themselves!

     

    In regards to engineers working on the factory floor, yes it's important and there are just as many (probably more) qualified engineers in China. This is not what I was talking about. I am talking about the hard labour of working assembling the products. The apprenticeship and training schemes I was talking about were ones they would have in Struer, Czech and other places in Europe to train factory workers to assemble the products. Something Engineers with a Masters or PHD would never do for $1.68 an hour in China or $11 an hour in Czech. They often hire people for this kind of work straight from school or sometimes with an undergraduate and train them from the ground up. I am very familiar myself with such schemes they have in the Leica, Lotus, and Hasselblad factories to name a few. I know they wouldn't have such lengthy personalised schemes of training for labour when they need hundreds of thousands of people in the factory and don't have time to take months to train them in China. If you have your own factory and you don't outsource, your workers grow to know your companies products alone inside out and even make suggestions to the engineers and even company execs in many cases. My friends who are engineers love the fact that they can sit down and talk to the factory workers and have them assemble something to be tested that the CEO for example can see that day. In the case of western engineered-chinese made products it's not the case. These are all reasons why I thinik the quality is better in developed countries is that they have such extensive training, extreme daily quality control, proximity to the engineers and management of their own company, etc...

     

    Jonathan – I completely agree with Bentleyman in regards to cars. It does not matter who owns the company on paper but who makes the cars and where it is made. The same goes with Lotus, they might be owned by Proton but they have no Proton parts in the car and they produce it in Hethel, Norfolk. Holden is still an Australian car company even though it is owned by GM!

  • 02-08-2012 4:14 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    Jonathan:

    Rolls Royce - GERMAN,

    Bentley - GERMAN,

     

     

    Jonathan,

    Obviously the RR and Bentley marques are now, since 1998, owned by German companies. They are 'owned' by German companies. That does not make them German cars however, since they are made at Goodwood and Crewe, by an overwhelmingly British workforce.

    So, Rolls Royce was formed in 1904 in Manchester and 94 (ninety four) years later, a large german owned conglomerate bought them out. (This means financially and 'on paper') They keep production wholly within the UK with a predominantly british born workforce. So they have been assembling cars continuously (apart from during the World Wars I + II) for 108 years to date in England. Absolutely no hint of outsourcing involved.

    Does that make a Rolls-Royce a german car now? Hardly. Same applies to Bentley.

    I presume you are an Australian. As an Australian, if you had moved to say, China, 14 years ago to live/work would that mean that you are now Chinese? RR and Bentley cars have never been assembled outside of the UK, so I think your stretching it somewhat by claiming they are 'German Cars'.

     

    I thought there had, at times,  been Bentleys builts in Germany due to capacity issues in the UK - does that make these models "lesser" Bentleys? Also a Continental is reputed to be "just" a re-bodied Volkswagen Phaeton - how English is that?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-08-2012 5:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Puncher:

    Bentleyman:

    Jonathan:

    Rolls Royce - GERMAN,

    Bentley - GERMAN,

     

     

    Jonathan,

    Obviously the RR and Bentley marques are now, since 1998, owned by German companies. They are 'owned' by German companies. That does not make them German cars however, since they are made at Goodwood and Crewe, by an overwhelmingly British workforce.

    So, Rolls Royce was formed in 1904 in Manchester and 94 (ninety four) years later, a large german owned conglomerate bought them out. (This means financially and 'on paper') They keep production wholly within the UK with a predominantly british born workforce. So they have been assembling cars continuously (apart from during the World Wars I + II) for 108 years to date in England. Absolutely no hint of outsourcing involved.

    Does that make a Rolls-Royce a german car now? Hardly. Same applies to Bentley.

    I presume you are an Australian. As an Australian, if you had moved to say, China, 14 years ago to live/work would that mean that you are now Chinese? RR and Bentley cars have never been assembled outside of the UK, so I think your stretching it somewhat by claiming they are 'German Cars'.

     

    I thought there had, at times,  been Bentleys builts in Germany due to capacity issues in the UK - does that make these models "lesser" Bentleys? Also a Continental is reputed to be "just" a re-bodied Volkswagen Phaeton - how English is that?

     

    and BMW engines in Rolls??

    Skoda is now German

    Holden is American

    If your arguement is to where it is manufactured, then the Beosound 8 and Beolit 12 makes B&O a Chinese company!

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 5:22 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:
    The apprenticeship and training schemes I was talking about were ones they would have in Struer, Czech and other places in Europe to train factory workers to assemble the products.

    I can't speak of what happens in Struer, or their Czech facility for that matter, but I can speak about light engineering firms in the UK and other European countries that I am familiar with, Czech included. A traditional UK engineering apprenticeship would consist of at least one years "off the job" training, learning basic hand and machine tool skills. The remaining 3 or four years would be on the job under the tutelage of a time served craftsman perfecting your trade before being allowed to practise "solo". During the whole of this period the apprentice would also be required to attend technical college to gain the required academic knowledge. This is my definition of an apprenticeship. In my time in light engineering/manufacturing, none of the assembly lines I have seen have been manned by time-served craftsmen. More likely they are operated by what would be called semi-skilled labour which can amount to having basic training in the likes of safely using simple hand and air powered tools and instruction on the actual job at hand. Training before joining a new assembly line may be as short as 2 - 4 weeks - these are not apprentice trained craftsmen. This then is not infeasible in a Chinese plant.

    If B&O have exclusively only ever used genuine apprentice-served craftsmen for product assembly then I am very impressed.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-08-2012 5:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    Jonathan:

    Rolls Royce - GERMAN,

    Bentley - GERMAN,

     

     I presume you are an Australian. As an Australian, if you had moved to say, China, 14 years ago to live/work would that mean that you are now Chinese?

    yes, if I become a citizen

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 5:32 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:

    and BMW engines in Rolls??

    Skoda is now German

    Holden is American

    If your arguement is to where it is manufactured, then the Beosound 8 and Beolit 12 makes B&O a Chinese company!

     

    Jonathan – That is the most flawed logic I have ever heard. Most B&O products are not made in China, so no B&O is NOT a Chinese company. However, the BS8 and Beolit 12 ARE Chinese products which were designed in Denmark. According to your logic however, it seems that Volvo is Chinese even though it is designed, built and assembled in Sweden by Swedish workers? Who cares who owns the company, it's where it's made and who makes it that makes the product. If it's “made in” a certain country then it is a “Product of..” that country! This is why they label even products from American companies that manufacture in China as being “Product of PRC” or “Product of China." Even though they were designed by an American company!

    In regards to Rolls Royce, It is an English car with a German designed engine. Just like a Lotus is an English car with a Japanese engine. They are both handbuilt in England, the engines and suspensions are tuned in England, they are designed inside out in England. They are still English companies even if somebody from another country owns them. Their base (both manufacturing and development) is in England, most of their engineers are in England.

    If they had moved to company to Germany, started manufacturing at the BMW factory (or if they had moved Lotus to Proton in Malaysia), etc... then it would become a German company and the cars would be a "Product of Germany" instead of "Product of England"

  • 02-08-2012 5:46 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Laughing the fact that they're foreign owned makes them NOT english companies

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 6:35 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:

    Laughing the fact that they're foreign owned makes them NOT english companies

    Why can't an English company be owned by a foreign company or person and still be English through and through? In fact BMW doesn't consider RR German and neither does RR consider itself a German car, same with Proton not considering Lotus to be Malaysian, as Lotus does not consider itself a Malaysian company. They are all designed in England, built in England, tuned in England, using many English parts, with English labour. And they are not English because someobody who is not English owns them? Does that mean TVR was not British (before it went bust) when a Russian businessmen bought them? Perpahs Chelsea is not an English team either since it's owned by a Russian businessmen by your logic? Or many British football teams for that matter. If I go out and buy Lotus from Proton does it become American because of my citizenship even if I don't hire Americans to manufacture or design it? Or perhaps it will become Azerbaijani because I was born there and am 1/4 Azeri... Seems like flawed logic to me...

  • 02-08-2012 6:44 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:
    Perpahs Chelsea is not an English team either since it's owned by a Russian businessmen by your logic? Or many British football teams for that matter.

    Defintely dodgy ground now, Chelsea, Man City, even Liverpool and Man Utd ................ all foreign owned and defintely non - English. In fact Man U and Liverpool have more European supporters than EnglishLaughingLaughingLaughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-08-2012 7:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:

    Laughing the fact that they're foreign owned makes them NOT english companies

     

    Complete nonsense i'm afraid.

    Both Dkatz and myself have given compelling and simple reasons but you are either missing the point or just talking b*llocks for the sake of it.

    The Times newspaper - that is obviously a british newspaper. However, The Times is owned by News International Corp who are based/registered in the US.  News International, on the other hand, is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is an Australian by birth.

    Does that therefore make The Times an Australian publication, or could it be called American, or is it an English newspaper?

    Nobody is denying who owns RR, Bentley, Lotus, Jaguar financially nowadays and where those huge multinational companies are 'based' ( although having said that, companies such as BMW and VW are such large corporations they would be better described as 'global' companies rather than 'German' in any case), but how can a car built entirely from scratch at Goodwood or Crewe or Hethel by local british people who live within close enough daily commute distance to the assembly plants be called a german made/built car? The german companies you refer to are simply the financial corporate owners of the brand name RR or Bentley or Lotus. They have not shifted production to Germany or Malaysia or India - nor do they send thousands of german, malaysian or Indian workers over from those countries to work in the factory plants.

    On paper, yes they are owned by 'foreign' companies of course. But as their products are made here in England in assembly plants staffed by British workers, how can the nationality of the controlling organisation mean that the products suddenly become of german\malaysian/indian origin....?

    Totally ridiculous assertion.

     

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-08-2012 7:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Jonathan:

    Laughing the fact that they're foreign owned makes them NOT english companies

    Why can't an English company be owned by a foreign company or person and still be English through and through? In fact BMW doesn't consider RR German and neither does RR consider itself a German car, same with Proton not considering Lotus to be Malaysian, as Lotus does not consider itself a Malaysian company. They are all designed in England, built in England, tuned in England, using many English parts, with English labour. And they are not English because someobody who is not English owns them? Does that mean TVR was not British (before it went bust) when a Russian businessmen bought them? Perpahs Chelsea is not an English team either since it's owned by a Russian businessmen by your logic? Or many British football teams for that matter. If I go out and buy Lotus from Proton does it become American because of my citizenship even if I don't hire Americans to manufacture or design it? Or perhaps it will become Azerbaijani because I was born there and am 1/4 Azeri... Seems like flawed logic to me...

    Once an English company is sold to another country, that company is no longer an English company. For example Lotus. Do you think the profits from Lotus go to an English company? Or do they go to a Malaysian company?

    Lotus WAS an english company, but has since been sold and has become a MALAYSIAN company. B&O produce in China, this does not make them a Chinese company as the profits, decisions, etc are all from Struer

    This is my last post on this frustrating and stupid thread, so please don't waste your time responding (I can't believe I keep getting sucked in Super Angry

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 02-08-2012 7:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:
    Perpahs Chelsea is not an English team either since it's owned by a Russian businessmen by your logic?

     

    Good example - presumably because Roman Abramovich owns Chelsea Football Club, this therefore makes Chelsea a Russian club in your view?

    If a dog walks into a stable, does that make it a horse..? 

    Laughing

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 02-08-2012 7:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Jonathan:
    This is my last post on this frustrating and stupid thread, so please don't waste your time responding (I can't believe I keep getting sucked in Super Angry

    I wonder I wonderDevil

    Beosound 3000, BL 4000, BL 8000, BG 2404,BG 5000, BG CD50, Beocord 5000, BM 901, BM 2400, BM 4000, BV S45, BV 3702. There is nothing we cannot do, but a lot of things we don't want to do!!

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