Jonathan:

This is my last post on this frustrating and stupid thread, so please don't waste your time responding (I can't believe I keep getting sucked in

In the last couple of pages, it's your own posts which have been some of the most stupid, and it's been your interjections which have been predominant in stirring up a lotta sillyness, quite the contrary to you having been 'sucked in'

Jonathan:

Once an English company is sold to another country, that company is no longer an English company. For example Lotus. Do you think the profits from Lotus go to an English company? Or do they go to a Malaysian company?

Lotus WAS an english company, but has since been sold and has become a MALAYSIAN company. B&O produce in China, this does not make them a Chinese company as the profits, decisions, etc are all from Struer

This is my last post on this frustrating and stupid thread, so please don't waste your time responding (I can't believe I keep getting sucked in

Your responses are just getting funnier. No English car company was sold to another country, just another company that's based in another country! The profits from Lotus go to both Lotus UK limited and Proton Malaysia. Most of the employees who receive those wages are in the UK. The person who makes the decisions for Lotus is NOT Proton but CEO Dany Bahar who is a Turkish born Swiss national! So does that suddenly make Lotus Swiss or Turkish? He was also CEO for Ferrari before... so maybe Ferrari is not Italian either because they had a Japanese lead designer at Pininfarina (Ken Okuyama) on many of their cars and a Turkish-Swiss CEO? Companies are global these days and many are owned by companies or people from other countries, this does not mean the company suddenly is not a company of that country anymore... In fact in the case of Lotus, Proton actually moved many of their execs FROM Malaysia to the UK to foresee that the cars were being made in the best of British traditions ;-). Lotus as with many other British companies is an ENGLISH company that is part of a Malaysian Company, therefore it is still English! Where they get their funding is not what makes them what they are, they wouldn't be any different if they were completely independant!

ER *cough*

On another thread under the lifestyle section, I started a thread called Cars, Fact or Fiction, to hopefully discuss the ins and outs of motor vehicles as regards in particular, measurable quality versus perceptions and 'opnions' of such quality.

In particular, I have thoughts of buying a Mercedes, in part because it is German and has a formidable reputation for it's design and engineering integrity and quality.

But, having read through this thread, I'm slightly lost, as I believe Mercedes have plants in Germany, the USA, South Africa, and now even China.

So are they a South African, American, or Chinese car and either not or only partly German?

I'd side with Jonathons view, insofar as that the country of origin of the controlling ownership of a company determines it's public peceptions of who owns/makes it's products; notwithstanding that with globalisation both in having manufacturing plants around the world, and with global sourcing of parts, these perceptions can be somewhat blurred.

Ergo a B&O 7-40 TV - a Sharp or Samsung panel, most likely Siemens transistors/resistors etc, speakers from the likes of Phillips or maybe Scanspeak/Dynaudio, and made in the Czech republic.  So looking at the parts count, and the country where it is made, can one still call it a Danish made TV?

A contentious thought.... again I'd side with Jonathons view - after all the profits are going to a Danish company and no one else.

HTH and just my 2c on the matter.

Regards

John..

Dkatz:

Jonathan:

Once an English company is sold to another country, that company is no longer an English company. For example Lotus. Do you think the profits from Lotus go to an English company? Or do they go to a Malaysian company?

Lotus WAS an english company, but has since been sold and has become a MALAYSIAN company. B&O produce in China, this does not make them a Chinese company as the profits, decisions, etc are all from Struer

This is my last post on this frustrating and stupid thread, so please don't waste your time responding (I can't believe I keep getting sucked in

Your responses are just getting funnier. No English car company was sold to another country, just another company that's based in another country! The profits from Lotus go to both Lotus UK limited and Proton Malaysia. Most of the employees who receive those wages are in the UK. The person who makes the decisions for Lotus is NOT Proton but CEO Dany Bahar who is a Turkish born Swiss national! So does that suddenly make Lotus Swiss or Turkish? He was also CEO for Ferrari before... so maybe Ferrari is not Italian either because they had a Japanese lead designer at Pininfarina (Ken Okuyama) on many of their cars and a Turkish-Swiss CEO? Companies are global these days and many are owned by companies or people from other countries, this does not mean the company suddenly is not a company of that country anymore... In fact in the case of Lotus, Proton actually moved many of their execs FROM Malaysia to the UK to foresee that the cars were being made in the best of British traditions ;-). Lotus as with many other British companies is an ENGLISH company that is part of a Malaysian Company, therefore it is still English! Where they get their funding is not what makes them what they are, they wouldn't be any different if they were completely independant!

Could I just say that I'd appreciate it, as I'm sure we all would, if those debating in this thread can please keep it clean, re no ad hominen attacks, and denigration of members personally.  No one likes to be called 'stupid' or 'silly' - we can surely disagree with the points being argued, without insulting the messenger.

Having got that off my chest......

Lets say, horror of horrors, Tue's plans don't work out, and B&O continue losing money.

Seizing an opportunity, the Canadian conglomerate who own Rotel, Classe and B&W speakers step up to the plate and attempt to buy out B&O.

Not to be outdone, D&M holdings, the Hong Kong based corporation who own Denon and Marantz, and seeking a luxury arm to their portfolio outbid the Canadians, and B&O is sold to D&M Holdings.

Business carries on as usual at B&O HQ in Stuer, but under the financial direction and control of D&M holdings, and the profits flow back to D&M - after all they have invested millions of dollars into otherwise moribund B&O to give it a new lease of life.  

New plants are opened, and more parts sharing takes place, but essentially the main design ethos at least, is Danish, and the design work is continued to be outsourced to David Lewis design company.

So is B&O now a Hong Kong based Asian company, or a Struer based Danish one?

As I say, a contentious thought.....

Best Regards

John...

John – It is so blatantly obvious that you are Jonathan and have just changed your name as you promised not to contribute anymore. If the B&O 7-40 is “made in Czech” then it is a “Czech made TV, which was designed by a Danish company.” How can something be “made in Czech” and be considered “Danish made?” Where it is made determines what if it is “Czech MADE or Danish MADE, etc...”

In Regards to BMW - The Chinese produced cars are made ONLY for the Chinese market not for the European, Japanese or US Market. The only BMWs that are built in the US are the X series which was actually designed in America as well (So yes I do think that the X series is an American made car with a German name) and some 3-series from what I've heard. South African built ones are mostly for their own market as well, they even have Mexican built cars for the mexican market! I have gone over this in depth in my previous posts if you want to refer to them! Most of this is to do with tax incentives incentives and import duties and rules with various countries, not to do with saving on labour costs.

If B&O keeps its design and manufacture for most of its products in Denmark then it is still a Danish company. If however, they move their HQ to HK, etc... then it is not Danish any longer. It's the same thing that happened to Contax. It was a “German Brand” but was bought by Kyocera. They moved the headquarters to Japan, started manufacturing in Japan, designing in Japan, it essentially became a Japanese camera company with an old German name, which is all that remained of it. RR, Lotus, and other companies you mention have not done this, they are still a British Company, with British designers, British manufacturing, British tuning, etc... The profit as stated goes to Lotus UK AND Proton. Who funds the company and where most of the profit goes does not make it a product of that nation!

In regards to China's car manufacturing. It will be a long way until China gains the engineering and innovation needed to produce a decent car. Look at the current Chinese cars on offer. It seems that not only in motoring but in almost every type of industry China tends to sell more copies than anything original, and when they do make something original it seems to be a bit old fashioned and horrible as the standards are completely different. In fact 10% of China's whole economy is based on counterfeit goods! Yet another reason not to invest and manufacture in China as your product is ever more likely to be copied.

I'm originally from the former Soviet Union and I can tell you that even modern Russian cars are peices of junk, they have extremely old technology, and are practically rust buckets with horrid design, no innovation, etc... The only exception being Marussia but that might be disputed as well. 

Latest Top Gear in which they go to Beijing to discover the Chinese car industry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01brd8t/Top_Gear_Series_18_Episode_2/

@John.  Great summary and question.  The answer is Asian.  RR is German, and they were smart not to call it a 9-Series.  Pull the German bits out and you have a couch.  So is Mini.  Chrysler is Italian.  

I am impressed with the fortitude and intelligence behind so many of the postings, and have learned a lot, little of which matters.  Having been bought and sold in corporations a scary number of times, I am comfortable, though not necessarily always happy, saying that ownership is everything.  It is painful to have your culture ripped out from under you, but that doesn't change the reality of the business dynamics.

People can argue their points until they turn blue.  Doesn't change anything.  Some people need to meet a few REAL Mergers & Acquisition guys.  Scary smart and (and callous) dudes (and dudettes).  Reality bites.  

B&O Play STRATEGY is a winner.  Sorry to disappoint the haters.

symmes:

@John.  Great summary and question.  The answer is Asian.  RR is German, and they were smart not to call it a 9-Series.  Pull the German bits out and you have a couch.  So is Mini.  Chrysler is Italian.  

I am impressed with the fortitude and intelligence behind so many of the postings, and have learned a lot, little of which matters.  Having been bought and sold in corporations a scary number of times, I am comfortable, though not necessarily always happy, saying that ownership is everything.  It is painful to have your culture ripped out from under you, but that doesn't change the reality of the business dynamics.

People can argue their points until they turn blue.  Doesn't change anything.  Some people need to meet a few REAL Mergers & Acquisition guys.  Scary smart and (and callous) dudes (and dudettes).  Reality bites.  

B&O Play STRATEGY is a winner.  Sorry to disappoint the haters.

It is merely your opinion that ownership is everything. It is not a fact! When a product is labeled as "Product of" it is always the country of manufacture that is put on the label. This is for a clear and concise reason that it is a product of that country!

Lotus, RR, and many other companies have not had their culture ripped out from them. In fact They make cars pretty much in the same fashion as they always have. Handbuilt in Britain, etc... If you take away the BMW designed engine, it does not leave a couch, RR have nearly every part of the car built in house, including the car itself which is assembled by hand in England! Most of the cars are designed in house, suspensions are tuned in house, etc... Therefore I don't see how they have lost their culture or their Britishness. RR, Lotus and other companies are seen as British by most of the world and if people didn't know they were bought by BMW they wouldn't really know they are owned by a German company as hardly anything has changed in their manufacture. They are seen as British just as Vertu is seen as quintisentially British even though it is owned by a Finish company. Perhaps people who only look at financial ownership as a study of designation of origin would disagree... but would Buffallo Mozarella from Napoli not be Neopolitan if the company that owned the Italian company was German? Would it be German Mozzarella if it was protected by EU laws that basically made it a proven fact that it was a product of Italy made from Buffallo in the Campagna region?

I have met M&A people in the past. They are smart about business but that's about it. Many of them have been pretty sleezy if you ask me, and not people I would normally hang out or associate with. All they think about is how to make millions out of convincing companies to buy out and merge with other companies. Wow, their whole career based on only one thing: money. I prefer jobs and people that work for passion rather than money being the sole motivator.

Reality bites if you want it to bite. As I mentioned we all have a choice. Some companies out there think about many things other than profit. Many lose out on the huge profits that outsourcing to China will bring, just because they care about their community, job creation, high attention to detail and skilled and semi-skilled labour. They look at the wider picture and open a company and make things because they have a passion for them, not as many companies these days do it simply for profit and nothing else.

B&Os Play Strategy is a success financially. But finance is not everything, there is reputation, there is corporate social responsibility, many many many other things which I discussed. You are not dissapointing me with saying this, it's simply your oppinion.

Dkatz:

John – It is so blatantly obvious that you are Jonathan and have just changed your name as you promised not to contribute anymore.

The only merit in that comment... is what I originally thought...

YOU are A1 certifiable.

symmes:

@John.  Great summary and question.  The answer is Asian.  RR is German, and they were smart not to call it a 9-Series.  Pull the German bits out and you have a couch.  So is Mini.  Chrysler is Italian.  

I am impressed with the fortitude and intelligence behind so many of the postings, and have learned a lot, little of which matters.  Having been bought and sold in corporations a scary number of times, I am comfortable, though not necessarily always happy, saying that ownership is everything.  It is painful to have your culture ripped out from under you, but that doesn't change the reality of the business dynamics.

People can argue their points until they turn blue.  Doesn't change anything.  Some people need to meet a few REAL Mergers & Acquisition guys.  Scary smart and (and callous) dudes (and dudettes).  Reality bites.  

B&O Play STRATEGY is a winner.  Sorry to disappoint the haters.

Thank you!

Dkatz...

I love you. I would hire you in a skinny second to wave my corporate flag! No questions asked...

But that is it...

I appreciate your glimpses of how the corporate world functions in world corporate, but from someone who actually lives it rather than has studied it... which I respect...

Welcome to 2012.

burantek:

Dkatz...

I love you. I would hire you in a skinny second to wave my corporate flag! No questions asked...

But that is it...

I appreciate your glimpses of how the corporate world functions in world corporate, but from someone who actually lives it rather than has studied it... which I respect...

Welcome to 2012.

Not every corporation or company is run the same. B&O to me was like RR, Lotus, and many other companies that don't outsource for all the reasons I mentioned as they were a luxury goods manufacturer and high end A/V company. I have many friends who also work in the corporate world, and who own their own companies that manufacture. I didn't simply study the matter and their opinions, and those of many of the companies I interviewed, differ greatly from yours, many people on the forum, and perhaps that of B&Os in 2012.

No offence but I wouldn't want to wave the flag of a company I didn't believe in. I am a person of principal, and I highly admire, respect and support companies that still hold their principals at heart and build their products with passion, who support their local community and strive for quality and don't outsource their manufacturing to developing countries. I live in 2012 and I live the way I want to and I as a consumer have a choice of who to support and what to buy. So do the companies whether they decide to outsource and focus merely on profit or not.

Dkatz:

John – It is so blatantly obvious that you are Jonathan and have just changed your name as you promised not to contribute anymore.

I'm sorry if you get that impression Daniel - I can assure you I've not had the pleasure to the best of my knowledge of meeting Jonathon, let alone knowing him or being him.  I'ts possible I may have met him on the one B&O/Beoworld event I went to a couple of years ago it must be now, in Camberwell here in Melbourne, but other than here on the forums, I have no knowledge of him.

I appreciate that on some forums, such as PFM where I used to hang out in my Naim days, that arguments can and do get very personal unfortunately, and such subterfuges as registering under different names etc were not uncommon at all; however I can assure you that I am not Jonathon, and also from a point of personal integrity would not behave in such a manner.

Also, my opinons are just that, opinions, and are niether designed by intent or accident to offend anyone, including you Daniel.

I appreciate your passion; it is laudable, but in reality everyone is going to have differing points of view.

I would contend that right now the only one that matters is that B&O survive and grow, and not go the way of my theoretical scenario re D&M holdings etc.

As such, I would support Tue's sound business decision to introduce a more affordable 'sub brand' if you will, that will allow many of us who have many diverse financial priorities in life, to partake of owning HiFi and video equipment that is of very high quality and features highly also in terms of ownership satisfaction and performance.

I would hope that despite the passion and self belief of your arguments that you will continue to support B&O by buying it's products - at the end of the day, that is the only thing that will keep it around in the years ahead for us all to be able to enjoy the products they create.

Once again, my apologies if you feel I was masquerading as Jonathon.

Kind Regards

John...

burantek:

The only merit in that comment... is what I origanlly thought...

YOU are A1 certifiable.

Well isn't it odd that someone named John instead of Johnathan who is also from Melbourne, suddenly starts to contribute to the forum under the name John as soon as "Jonathan" promises to stop contributing and the first thing he starts talking about is how he supports Jonathan... Kind of obvious if you ask me...

Dkatz:

Not every corporation or company is run the same. B&O to me was like RR, Lotus...

As Lotus is your self proclaimed Rosettta Stone... I will reiterate... they are now a Malaysian company. A Malaysian company that is one torn tendon (or lack of BL12 in their portfolio) from being wholey owned by China.

Start waving, please! ...or set down you Chinese keyboard.

Dkatz:

burantek:

The only merit in that comment... is what I origanlly thought...

YOU are A1 certifiable.

Well isn't it odd that someone named John instead of Johnathan who is also from Melbourne, suddenly starts to contribute to the forum under the name John as soon as "Jonathan" promises to stop contributing and the first thing he starts talking about is how he supports Jonathan... Kind of obvious if you ask me...

I guess you missed the post immediately above yours...

SHOCKER.

Apparently Jonathan is now outsourcing to John.

Hope it is to stuff cash in his pocket, or your whole argument just crashed.

burantek:

I guess you missed the post immediately above yours...

SHOCKER.

Apparently Jonathan is now outsourcing to John.

Hope it is to stuff cash in his pocket, or your whole argument just crashed.

His post was approved after I posted mine so no, I didn't see his post till later. Him saying what he did doesn't mean he isn't Jonathan, either way it doesn't really matter. I didn't say that profit was the only reason from outsourcing, look at my previous posts in which I listed other reasons that companies do.

Lotus is owned by a Malaysian company but again, that does not make it Malaysian if it is assembled by hand in the UK, designed in the UK, with their HQ in the UK... Both Lotus and Proton don't consider Lotus to be Malaysian, and neither does anyone who buys it and doesn't know that it is owned by Proton (and most people who even do). My car was owned during the time when GM owned Lotus. So it used to be American, then French (Bugatti, the man was actually Italian), now Malaysian? And all the while they haven't really changed their manufacturing or their philosophy... You might think differently, but I guess when they put "Product of" a certain country that doesn't apply according to you... And neither does the fact that it didn't matter over the years who owned Lotus as their manufacturing, design and philosophy is still very inherently British in nature and not a trace of Malaysian...

Dkatz:

burantek:

I guess you missed the post immediately above yours...

SHOCKER.

Apparently Jonathan is now outsourcing to John.

Hope it is to stuff cash in his pocket, or your whole argument just crashed.

His post was approved after I posted mine so no, I didn't see his post till later. Him saying what he did doesn't mean he isn't Jonathan, either way it doesn't really matter. I didn't say that profit was the only reason from outsourcing, look at my previous posts in which I listed other reasons that companies do.

Lotus is owned by a Malaysian company but again, that does not make it Malaysian if it is assembled by hand in the UK, designed in the UK, with their HQ in the UK... Both Lotus and Proton don't consider Lotus to be Malaysian, and neither does anyone who buys it and doesn't know that it is owned by Proton (and most people who even do). My car was owned during the time when GM owned Lotus. So it used to be American, then French (Bugatti, the man was actually Italian), now Malaysian? And all the while they haven't really changed their manufacturing or their philosophy... You might think differently, but I guess when they put "Product of" a certain country that doesn't apply according to you... And neither does the fact that it didn't matter over the years who owned Lotus as their manufacturing, design and philosophy is still very inherently British in nature and not a trace of Malaysian...

Dkatz...

My brain hurts.

Life sucks...

http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/highlights/198097-a-chinese-buyer-for-lotus.html

Somebody stick a fork in this, PLEASE!

burantek:

Dkatz...

My brain hurts.

Life sucks...

http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/highlights/198097-a-chinese-buyer-for-lotus.html

A. A Chinese company or person is only one of the "Potential" buyers.

B. Even if a Chinese company buys them it doesn't mean it will become a Chinese company. Volvo is still Swedish, designed, engineered and manufactured in Sweden even if a Chinese company owns it. They have no plans for manufacturing Volvo's in China. Lotus is considered a luxury sports car in China and in fact has a new market there. As other have mentioned, Chinese people buy the car exactly because it is a car that is made in England and not China, just like RR.

C. Lotus has been sold and resold over the years. Proton has wanted to sell it since 2000, so it's kind of old news. There were many potential buyers over 10 years ago and it didn't go through. No point in talking about something that hasn't happened.

Dkatz:

No point in talking about something that hasn't happened.

Exactly...

Your smartest post yet.

Dkatz, from now you can leave out Nokia as an example of not outsourcing its top of the line products. As they've just annonced they are moving production from Finland, Mexico and Hungary to China.

bayerische:

Dkatz, from now you can leave out Nokia as an example of not outsourcing its top of the line products. As they've just annonced they are moving production from Finland, Mexico and Hungary to China.

 

 

 So only development and marketing left in Finland?

@Dkatz - since everything you mention is hypothetical and idealistic, can I ask if B&O were to open their own factory in China would you then concede that the product produced were real B&O, worthy of the brand?

I ask since it seems its OK to produce anywhere in Europe as long as B&O owns the building.

beocool:

bayerische:

Dkatz, from now you can leave out Nokia as an example of not outsourcing its top of the line products. As they've just annonced they are moving production from Finland, Mexico and Hungary to China.

 

 

 

 So only development and marketing left in Finland?

Pretty much. They are moving the manufacturing of phones from Salo to china. Head office is in Espoo. The Salo plant has some 3000 employees, and 1000 of them are getting layed off during 2012.

So what are the rest of the 2000 left going to do? According to Nokia they are about to help customizing phones.... whatever that means.

I'm darn sure, it's a smoke screen to divert attention from the obvious, there will be no more Salo plant soon. Better to take it at an even slash, instead of hitting it hard right away.

Nokia.... a gigantic Dinosaur. We all know what happends to them. 

beocool:

 So only development and marketing left in Finland?

Nokia's R&D has been spread out for a long time, particularly at the Networks division which was combined with Siemens.

This downsizing (practically closing down) of the factory is somewhat relevant in this thread, as this Salo establishment can be seen as the spiritual home of the entire mobile communications branch. It started over there as a joint venture between Salora (a TV & radio manufacturer) and Nokia (then making anything from cables to rubber boots to minicomputers) in 1979. Lately, they have been assembling some of the small series higher end models and prototypes. Ever since Mr. Micros Elop managed to kill the smart phone sales at least temporarily last year, the bulk of the operations has been in cheap phones - the components are made in Asia, the markets are in Asia, no sense in shipping stuff back & forth. Even the new plant in Romania (built after closing down Bochum, Germany) has gone.

Those buyers won't give a crap about where the phones are made or don't even know. The African farmer who gets to charge his phone weekly at the town only cares that the phone works for a long time and survives the occasional drop.

BTW, Huawei and ZTE are completely Chinese, and they have a large and growing share in mobile data communications (think 3G modems), and also phones particularly at their local market. I'm sure many of their engineers have received their education for free in Finland.

Also, I can assure John != Jonathan. Moderators can see the IP addresses anyone used for posting, so that trick wouldn't get you very far; it has been previously used a few times in heated topics, though...

EDIT: I guess I need to add that "!=" is programmerspeak for "not equal". Sorry if I fooled you Andreas!