The anti-apple sentiment by some of you idiots is laughable. ( Nervous laughter on your part methinx )

When they release the Apple TV as a TV bno are finished. ( Sony too )

Flappo:

The anti-apple sentiment by some of you idiots is laughable. ( Nervous laughter on your part methinx )

When they release the Apple TV as a TV bno are finished. ( Sony too )

 

Flappo,

Yes you are probably right. Perhaps we move one step closer to being a slave of the machine.

Perhaps that is the problem all along. Some of us dont want to be slaves or have our freedom of choice taken away.

Perhaps the freedom that we dont want anything Apple?

I don't understand what you mean by apple imposing limitations - Apple oppose DRM for example and won't support Blu ray due to it.

Sony are the real bad guys in all of this , they love imposing restrictions and introducing/pushing new formats , SACD DVD A Mini Disc etc etc - some of them incompatible with their own products. None of them working in harmony either.

I'm looking forwrad to Sony crashing and burning in the next few years - they're already in a rapid downward spiral.

Apple have always been a very open minded company , out for the customer , unlike M$ for example. 

Puncher:

symmes:

20% loss of currency value to Euro over that period does not help

 

 

True, it would be interesting to see the same data for the Danish & German markets.

I have an old B&O pricelist from 2000 (pre-Euro) in FIM. The Beosound 9000 was roughly 15000 Fim, or 2500 euro. Only about 7 years later it was over 4000 euro. Hardly "normal" inflation at work. B&O's prices were pretty much adjusted for inflation during the nineties. 

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

Flappo:

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

I too have preached this many many times here. 

Most people even if they have the money won't put 20K on a TV. They just won't. I won't. 

How many Avants were B&O selling in 1998? How many BV12, are they going to sell in 2012? Or BV9's in 2009? (was it still in production?)

I actually regret buying my BV10 in 2010. It's not worth the price. The TV itself is nothing but a monitor, the smart part of my BV10 is the Humax WBOX (400 euro) and Mac Mini (550 euro) it is connected to. B&O can't even justify the price to have their own Digital reciever certified in Finland, so you can't use it with coded or pay-channels. According to my dealer when I bought the BV10 the price of this certification is roughly 10.000 euro. Dammit, I could pay it for them.  

 

I'm very interested to see what will happen with Apple on the TV market. It will for sure be something different from the TV we are used to.

I can't understand your point 10% in that Apple would be limiting and somehow keep us from diversity? Apple has indeed been the one, telling the music and movie industry things need to change. And I applaude them for it. Sadly they are still fighting the movie and TV industry.

Think about it this way, the reason to modern "piracy" is much less in the US for example, hit TV shows, and new movies are available right away. In Europe, and Finland especially we are waiting for new movies for about 6-12months. TV shows for years! Now this problem might not only be the TV networks fault in the US, but also the fact that local TV stations simply won't pay the prices asked. 

Here we are given a choice. 

1. Piracy, it's all available online within minutes

2. iTunes, it's all available within minutes, but it's legal, and you pay as you use. 

Sadly, probably due to the extremely complex legislations and royalty-collecting networks on local levels troughout the world, the iTunes content is still very limited here in Finland for example. But I'm sure as the world is getting changed slowly with Apple at the wheel, because they have the influence and the power to change things.

Sofar the change they have done to the Music industry has benefitted me, and I'm sure it has benefitted the average consumer too. DRM was used by Apple in the beginning, not because Apple wanted it, but because the industry demanded it. It was a smart move by Apple and a carrot given to get the music industry to get them aboard.

I'm not sure why so many on this site are so negative towards Apple, but I guess, since there's "fanboys", there has to be "haters".

Apple will change the movie/TV industry just as they changed the Music industry. 

 

 

Flappo:

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

I too have preached this many many times here. 

Most people even if they have the money won't put 20K on a TV. They just won't. I won't. 

How many Avants were B&O selling in 1998? How many BV12, are they going to sell in 2012? Or BV9's in 2009? (was it still in production?)

I actually regret buying my BV10 in 2010. It's not worth the price. The TV itself is nothing but a monitor, the smart part of my BV10 is the Humax WBOX (400 euro) and Mac Mini (550 euro) it is connected to. B&O can't even justify the price to have their own Digital reciever certified in Finland, so you can't use it with coded or pay-channels. According to my dealer when I bought the BV10 the price of this certification is roughly 10.000 euro. Dammit, I could pay it for them.  

 

I'm very interested to see what will happen with Apple on the TV market. It will for sure be something different from the TV we are used to.

I can't understand your point 10% in that Apple would be limiting and somehow keep us from diversity? Apple has indeed been the one, telling the music and movie industry things need to change. And I applaude them for it. Sadly they are still fighting the movie and TV industry.

Think about it this way, the reason to modern "piracy" is much less in the US for example, hit TV shows, and new movies are available right away. In Europe, and Finland especially we are waiting for new movies for about 6-12months. TV shows for years! Now this problem might not only be the TV networks fault in the US, but also the fact that local TV stations simply won't pay the prices asked. 

Here we are given a choice. 

1. Piracy, it's all available online within minutes

2. iTunes, it's all available within minutes, but it's legal, and you pay as you use. 

Sadly, probably due to the extremely complex legislations and royalty-collecting networks on local levels troughout the world, the iTunes content is still very limited here in Finland for example. But I'm sure as the world is getting changed slowly with Apple at the wheel, because they have the influence and the power to change things.

Sofar the change they have done to the Music industry has benefitted me, and I'm sure it has benefitted the average consumer too. DRM was used by Apple in the beginning, not because Apple wanted it, but because the industry demanded it. It was a smart move by Apple and a carrot given to get the music industry to get them aboard.

I'm not sure why so many on this site are so negative towards Apple, but I guess, since there's "fanboys", there has to be "haters".

Apple will change the movie/TV industry just as they changed the Music and computer industry. 

 

 

Flappo:

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

Every time the discussion of price occurs in this forum, someone brings up this same argument. "My Avant was only twice the price of another TV". When I see this argument I frequently respond with a post asking what TV cost 1/2 the price of the Avant. I did so several pages ago in this thread. Nobody ever answers. So, when I read the post about the Sony Wega I thought I finally had found the answer. 

However, a couple minutes is all it took to find this thread from 2000 where people were discussing the Sony Wega. It says the price for a 32 inch Wega was $1,400-$1,500 but they were selling for $1,100. A 27 inch was $899. My Avant was $8,500 in 2000. That makes the Avant 6 to 9 times the price, not double.

I am still waiting for someone to name the TV that sold for $4,250 in 2000 and thus prove the Avant was only double the price of another TV.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1068135

 

 

Razlaw:

Every time the discussion of price occurs in this forum, someone brings up this same argument. "My Avant was only twice the price of another TV". When I see this argument I frequently respond with a post asking what TV cost 1/2 the price of the Avant. I did so several pages ago in this thread. Nobody ever answers. So, when I read the post about the Sony Wega I thought I finally had found the answer.

However, a couple minutes is all it took to find this thread from 2000 where people were discussing the Sony Wega. It says the price for a 32 inch Wega was $1,400-$1,500 but they were selling for $1,100. A 27 inch was $899. My Avant was $8,500 in 2000. That makes the Avant 6 to 9 times the price, not double.

I am still waiting for someone to name the TV that sold for $4,250 in 2000 and thus prove the Avant was only double the price of another TV.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1068135

We seem to be drifting off the "outsourcing" topic, however - when this subject is approached from the other direction, the cost of the Avant or BV7 is justified by including the cost of speakers or internal DVD players etc. On this basis I think the comparison to Sonys and Panasonics etc. is more realistically the BV3 rather than the Avant. It has the same video chassis as the Avant and, in the UK at least, retailed for less than half the cost of the Avant at £2450. Top end Panasonics and Sonys were retailing for over £1000 at the time.

 

Razlaw:

Flappo:

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

Every time the discussion of price occurs in this forum, someone brings up this same argument. "My Avant was only twice the price of another TV". When I see this argument I frequently respond with a post asking what TV cost 1/2 the price of the Avant. I did so several pages ago in this thread. Nobody ever answers. So, when I read the post about the Sony Wega I thought I finally had found the answer. 

However, a couple minutes is all it took to find this thread from 2000 where people were discussing the Sony Wega. It says the price for a 32 inch Wega was $1,400-$1,500 but they were selling for $1,100. A 27 inch was $899. My Avant was $8,500 in 2000. That makes the Avant 6 to 9 times the price, not double.

I am still waiting for someone to name the TV that sold for $4,250 in 2000 and thus prove the Avant was only double the price of another TV.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1068135

 

 

My parents payed 13.000 FIM or 2166 euro for their Avant 28" CTV in 1999. I'm sure a Sony would have been a lot cheaper in the US than Europe anyway.

I don't think you can compare a top of the line Avant with DVD? or VCR, surround sound etc to the Sony. Throw in Sonys top of the line Dolby digital amp, top of the line VCR and top of the line 32", and I'm not sure 8500 euro would have been enough. This is how the comparison should be done.

 

Flappo:

My Avant was twice the price of an equivalent Sony Wega , the new ones are more like ten times the price of an equivalent Samsung.

No wonder they're not selling many.

 Rather like comparing apples to pears.

With their constant reduction in prices the mainstream manufacturers have reduced the quality of their TVs,and the QC on their production lines.

The top of the range TVs,be they LED,or Plasma,have been beset with both picture,and QC,issues.

In 2007 my Pioneer Plasma TV cost £5000,and given the reported issues with current TVs,including even Loewe,I thought long,and hard,about not only buying a new TV,but also paying the large premium for a B & O.

Well the B & O TV was delivered,and set up,on Friday,and having lived with it for 48 hours,I can honestly say it has been money well spent.

 

 

Puncher:

Top end Panasonics and Sonys were retailing for over £1000 at the time.

I bought the top end Sony 32" CRT in 2000 and it was £1800. In fact, that was with a staggering 5% discount. As a result, the Sony dealer delivered, but left it in my hall and it must have been 60Kg. I didn't buy a B&O TV until 2004 (a BV7-32).

It was one of those designer Sony's and I managed to flog it for £1000 a couple of years later!

I can't remember the cost of my BV7-32, although it was brand new, but I do remember feeling like I'd got reasonable value. I can't remember thinking "crikey, that was 4x the price of the Sony".

Now, of course, it's a different matter. Buy a BV7-40 with Blu-ray now, with stand, and it's over £10,000. That would take a lot more consideration. I'm not doing badly, but I doubt I'd buy a BV7-40 brand new in 2012. I could only justify the BV10-46 from trading in my old BV7-40.

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time and the younger people coming in below will be even more fussy and price-sensitive....which is the primary reason for this multi-page discussion (B&O outsourcing to improve their margin).

TerryM:

In 2007 my Pioneer Plasma TV cost £5000

 

Interestingly, with regard to the subject of this thread, Pioneer closed it's Kuro division in 2009 because it was losing money - not enough people were prepared to pay their prices! If people aren't willing to pay what you're asking it renders "being the best" pretty much redundant. Something, I would imagine, that is in B&O's thoughts.

The Pioneer Kuro TV is probably the best example that has been mentioned on this thread - far better than silly handbags, cars or camera analogies. It was universally recognised as the best TV in the market - I don't think it had any detractors. It was expensive, too expensive as it turned out, not enough people were willing to pay the price. The end result ........ Pioneer had to cease making TV's because of extensive losses.

Puncher:

TerryM:

In 2007 my Pioneer Plasma TV cost £5000

 

Interestingly, with regard to the subject of this thread, Pioneer closed it's Kuro division in 2009 because it was losing money - not enough people were prepared to pay their prices!

True.

As was the case with Fujitsu.

But the point is quality costs.

I did flirt with the idea of buying a Panasonic VX300 Monitor,but having factored in it's £8-9000 cost,and the costs of an AV amplifier,a move to B & O made sense.

 

TerryM:

But the point is quality costs.

True again, but (and here we are back to the crux of the thread) when it costs more than enough people are willing to pay then there are only two options - either find a way to reduce costs or go out of business (please note I did not say sacrifice quality).

bayerische:

Razlaw:

Flappo:

 

 

 

 

I don't think you can compare a top of the line Avant with DVD? or VCR, surround sound etc to the Sony. Throw in Sonys top of the line Dolby digital amp, top of the line VCR and top of the line 32", and I'm not sure 8500 euro would have been enough. This is how the comparison should be done.

 

 

I agree.

 

Mr10Percent – Thank you for your very insightful input. Most companies unfortunately have not decreased prices when they have outsourced so although consumers have demanded cheaper goods they have not necessarily gotten them. The companies that chose not to outsource had to raise their prices to stay competitive. Therefore most products which are made in the UK, US, and Europe are more expensive, whilst many outsourced products from European, American and Japanese companies have practically stayed the same price. The exception being in certain computers and electronics where the prices have decreased due to advances in technology and cheaper ways of manufacturing (For example using CMOS chips in DSLRs instead of CCD).

 

I think you are quite right in saying that it is our choice but most consumers simply don't care. In fact I am the only person I know of that simply refuses to buy anything that's outsourced to developing countries be it computers, telephones, clothes, electronics, etc... Thankfully we all still have a choice as there's always an option to buy something that's made in a developed country (perhaps even in your own) that's often comparable in price to a similar outsourced product. For example you can buy an American Apparel t-shirt for $15-20 that's made in the USA instead of an outsourced one for the same price (or in England you can buy an excellent quality Sunspel one for $30-40, they have the best base-layer clothing available and all made in England). You can buy a Finish made N9 instead of an iPhone, you can buy a German built Fujitsu-Siemens instead of an outsourced Toshiba, Sony, HP, etc... My point is that there's always choices and quite often they are not that much more expensive than their outsourced equivalents! The problem is people just don't care to look...

 

P.S. About Beoworld, sometimes it can take upto 10 hours for posts to get approved when they are very long...

 

Flappo – Many of the technologies you mentioned such as SACD, DVD and others were introduced and invented in collaboration with other companies such as Philips. I remember my old Philips CDI being one of the first machines to be able to play video discs on a TV. Perhaps Blueray is different but Sony does have some high quality products that are still made in Japan for their top of the range models ( something that Apple doesn't do as they only think about high profit margins with outsourcing). They also cater more to professionals in all sorts of things besides TVs and Blueray players. They for example manufacture professional HD camera's for the video industry, professional CRT monitors for telecine, digital intermediate transfers, and film production, some excellent quality professional notebooks that are made in Japan sometimes even from carbon fibre with spillproof keyboards. I wouldn't disregard Sony just for being a monopoly on a certain technology, and to be honest, they license out that technology for others to use (for example other Blueray manufacturers), something that Apple does not do!

 

Bayerische – As someone who comes from the film industry myself and who's worked in Hollywood on a major motion picture film production. I can tell you that the only way Apple is changing the industry is in its conversion from Avid to Finalcut, although it's still about 50/50. Finalcut is still often used on lower budget films and Avid preferred on higher budget ones. There are other ways of streaming films besides iTunes for example on demand on Amazon, and there are plenty of pay per view websites available. I don't think this is anything new. To be honest much of Apples technology has come from someone else. An example is that the Tablet PC was introduced by Bill Gates in 2002 and Steve Jobs only introduced the iPad in 2010, nobody cared about the Tablet PC yet everyone started going crazy over the iPad. In essence Apple only improved and made things more user friendly, not necessarily invented them.

 

TerryM – I'm in complete agreement with you. This is partly what I mentioned in my last post when I talked about TVs. 

 

Puncher – Reducing costs often involves reducing quality. The reason for the high cost is the hand assembly in a developed country which nearly all TVs in that high quality price bracket are... Along with expensive high quality materials, components, circuitry, etc... Obviously you could send all those components and materials over to China to be assembled for a lot less, but I have yet to see a high quality TV of the same standards as the B&Os, the Pioneer, Fujitsu and Panasonics that cost 5000-10,000 GBP come out of China. If China suddenly starts to produce their own products, at a level of the TVs we mentioned here, then I will be proven wrong, but I think that if this happens it will be a very very long time from now. You may disagree with me again, but I think that having your own factory in your own country with your own highly skilled labour that you've put through apprenticeship schemes, with your own quality control where you can go and talk to the workers who can give you suggestions ( as a side note this is often more the case in Japan than it is in almost any country, I took a Management in Japan course and can tell you that their system is extremely horizontal unlike in China and even many western countries when it comes to interaction between blue collar and white collar. In fact often in Japan a factory worker will give the CEO a suggestion, this is unseen and unheard of in China. Perhaps this is why CEOs only get paid 11 times more than the average worker in Japan whilst in China and America it's hundreds of times more. Maybe this is why Japan has such a middle class society) is very important to quality.

 

I have some friends who work in the Ministry of Economy of Japan, they were economic diplomats at the Japanese Embassy in London when I met them. I often had discussions on the subject of outsourcing with them and how many Japanese companies outsource these days (in fact more than many European countries do). They told me that many products which are labeled as “made in Japan” have most of their components sourced from other countries such as China, Thailand, Philippines, etc... but the main quality comes from the company controlling their own operations and assembling in house. It's this assembly with their high standards of quality control that determines the quality of a product because the company itself can check over each and every detail and improve as needed. This is exactly why B&O is such good quality, of course they have optical reads, certain electronics and chips and other components that are sourced from other companies in various countries all over the world, but the hand assembly in their own factories in Denmark and Czech is what really makes the quality stand out from the rest.

Dkatz:

My point is...

...

moxxey:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time and the younger people coming in below will be even more fussy and price-sensitive....which is the primary reason for this multi-page discussion (B&O outsourcing to improve their margin).

I'm not quite sure about that. B&O top-range products sales are rising in markets like Russia and China, where the newly-rich buy it. Simply because it's expensive and made in Europe. They would not buy it if it was made in China.

One of the reasons for the economical problems of B&O is that the sales have been decreasing in their previous big markets in europe and USA. Mostly because of the economical crisis. But I-m sure that the sales will rise again in those markets when the economy get better.
B&O has been in crisis several times before -always when there was recession in the world.

It's fine that they make some lower priced 'entry-products' -but if they start to outsource too much of the manufacturing of the high-end products (without lowering the prices), then it could backfire on them in the long run.
Who would buy a Rolls-Royce if it was made in China?   

moxxey:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time

 

Who says.....?

The number of wealthy people on the planet is higher now than at any time in history. This is a fact.

It is only your opinion that the number of customers willing & able to spend £10k on a TV will diminish over time.

Perhaps the TV market globally is totally unique and different to most other markets. It would need to be for your opinion to be proved true. In most other markets prices increase and will continue to increase, and people will continually be prepared to pay those increasing prices.

Look at prices of higher end cars, higher end real estate, quality jewellery, quality watches, designer clothes, higher end hotel room rates, art prices etc etc. Prices in these luxury goods markets only go up, never down. But there are actually more people around nowadays with the ability to afford those prices, than at any previous time in human history.

 

Steffen:

Of course, there are a few people who have so much spare cash, £10K for a TV is almost irrelevant. However, these customers will diminish over time and the younger people coming in below will be even more fussy and price-sensitive....which is the primary reason for this multi-page discussion (B&O outsourcing to improve their margin).

 

Steffen:

I'm not quite sure about that. B&O top-range products sales are rising in markets like Russia and China, where the newly-rich buy it. Simply because it's expensive and made in Europe. They would not buy it if it was made in China.

One of the reasons for the economical problems of B&O is that the sales have been decreasing in their previous big markets in europe and USA. Mostly because of the economical crisis. But I-m sure that the sales will rise again in those markets when the economy get better.
B&O has been in crisis several times before -always when there was recession in the world.

It's fine that they make some lower priced 'entry-products' -but if they start to outsource too much of the manufacturing of the high-end products (without lowering the prices), then it could backfire on them in the long run.
Who would buy a Rolls-Royce if it was made in China?   

Exactly. You beat me to it Steffen, I agree.

Dkatz:

 

I think you are quite right in saying that it is our choice but most consumers simply don't care. In fact I am the only person I know of that simply refuses to buy anything that's outsourced to developing countries be it computers, telephones, clothes, electronics, etc... Thankfully we all still have a choice as there's always an option to buy something that's made in a developed country (perhaps even in your own) that's often comparable in price to a similar outsourced product. For example you can buy an American Apparel t-shirt for $15-20 that's made in the USA instead of an outsourced one for the same price (or in England you can buy an excellent quality Sunspel one for $30-40, they have the best base-layer clothing available and all made in England). You can buy a Finish made N9 instead of an iPhone, you can buy a German built Fujitsu-Siemens instead of an outsourced Toshiba, Sony, HP, etc... My point is that there's always choices and quite often they are not that much more expensive than their outsourced equivalents! The problem is people just don't care to look...

 

So would you buy a high end Chinese label that's made in China?

Jonathan:

So would you buy a high end Chinese label that's made in China?

If I felt it was made to better standards, better quality, with better materials than an equivilent product in Developed countries. If the company were completely transparent about their manufacturing process and product and materials used. If they paid their workers decent wages and gave them decent working conditions with benifits. The product would also have to be quite unique and significantly different than an equivilent product manufactured in my own country in order for me not to want to support my own economy and workforce. Then, I might consider buying a Chinese product. I, however, do not know of any products from China or any developing countries that meet those requirements or even come close... 

moxxey:

Dkatz:

My point is...

I thought I made my point clear throughout this discussion. In fact I have more than one point which I summerised in some of my statements. I agree with Steffan and Bentleyman that B&O might make a lot of money from this outsourcing but if they start to outsource their higher end products they will alienate many others who pay a premium exactly because it's a European made product. I know many Russians who buy B&O for that reason and I am sure there are many noveau-riche Chinese who do as well. For most of the people who buy the TVs for 10K like many have said, they buy it because it's a European made product, not only because it's high quality. There are ups and downs that every company goes through but if B&O starts to sell products that are made in China and not really sell for a much lower price (or even if it is lower than other B&O products but much higher than Sony, Bose, or whatever other cheap consumer grade products of A/V) then it will be even less succesful in the end. Let me ask you - How succesful do you think the BS8 and Beolit 12 would be without Apple (iPod, iPhone, and iPad) integration and without sales in Apple stores? I personally think it would have been a failure, my point being that it'ss success in volume of sales has relied on this, not on whether it was made in China or not. Now if the other higher end products don't have this, it will be exactly the kind of people Steffan and Bentleyman describe that will buy most of those products in the future and if they will be made in China as they righty pointed out, they will not buy them.