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  • 01-21-2012 12:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey,  You are probably correct.  This discussion should end.  I've had my Beolit 12 since this past Wednesday and am very impressed. Unfortunately for me my wife likes it too.  I going to have to buy another Beolit 12 for her.

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 01-21-2012 12:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    @Bentleyman - I see what you are saying about the very early tube TV relative to income ( although i was using the MX era sets as an exampe) but I don't agree with your calculations, because house prices have also changed relative to income over the years.

    As Puncher has pointed out house price infaltion in the UK has distorted the comparison to make it meaningless ( this is also a whole other discussion, about how 30 years of artificial boom has landed the next few generations with a huge problem - not to mention the fact the average first time buyer in 2012 will be 37 - so the "standard" mortgage term of 25 years will into retirement for many !!!)

    Plus,  TV was an emerging, very expensive technology when your mother bought her house  - and they were very cheap then.  So you are not using a valid example.  The audio systems of the 60's would be a better guide - ie, established technologies with established distribution and easily available.

    The original Beolit radio's were not beyond the means of Joe Public. 

    Neither were the Beograms and "classic" audio systems that are still popular with collectors, and restored/refurbished by the likes of Frede.

    Neither were TV's during the LX/MX era - spanning nearly 30 years.

    So, your points notwithstanding,  I just don't accept that B&O have betrayed their heritage, or are in danger of doing so. 

     

     

  • 01-21-2012 12:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Puncher:

    My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

     

    Sure, I can accept and agree with this. Fair point.

    Could you suggest something that is relatable/comparable so we can have a closer comparable example.

    What about the net monthly salary comparison between 1968 and pesent day for example?

    Or how about comparing the 1968 list price of a car with an equivalent today...? Say an E-type Jaguar in 1968 against a 2012 XK for instance?

    My point is this : say I work in a supermarket and my take home is £1,200 per month. If I want a B&O BS8 or Beolit12 I could afford one from a single months pay, and still have quite a bit of change.

    My £1,200 per month today would have been the equivalent of about £40 in 1968. If I wanted to buy a Beolit 1000 in 1969 this would have cost £64 + 15 shillings - therefore more than 1.5 months of my pay. So, yes, consumer electronics have generally come down in reletive prices and affordability - good news for all consumers both rich and poor

    Smile Happy days. We never had it so good Whistle

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 12:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Actually Moxxey, I think the BS8 is terrible! Its sound quality does not involve or invite. I think it's horrible and im convinced in years to come, this forum will say avoid stuff like this.

    Its no more than a £300 product with a B&O badge, out sourced in China to appeal to B&O's existing rich customers who simply do not know any better!

  • 01-21-2012 12:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey:
    Can't this thread grind to a halt? It's a discussion going no-where. We have people saying the Chinese can't produce quality, but who the hell cares?

    The thread/discussion will end when no-one wishes to add any more to it - not, with all due respect, when moxxey decides it should grind to a halt.

    moxxey:

    I've never seen a discussion before, at such length, where the argument is over successful products. How on earth can any create an argument around this?

     ........so why do you keep adding your opinions to it, thereby fueling the debate/discussion/argument then..?

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 12:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey:

    bayerische:

    Puncher:

    My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

     

    Amen!

    Can't this thread grind to a halt? It's a discussion going no-where. We have people saying the Chinese can't produce quality, but who the hell cares? The proof is in the pudding and the pudding is damned good - the Chinese BS8 and Beolit 12 are great.

    Miele may produce their washing machines in Germany, but I can also tell you that Miele purchasers I know say that recent Miele products are not a patch on old Miele products, which were built like tanks. Even Miele are finding ways to cut costs, like all manufacturers.

    I've never seen a discussion before, at such length, where the argument is over successful products. How on earth can any create an argument around this?

    People here are putting out daft arguments about quality of manufacturing.....as if the BS8/Beolit 12 were failures and the reason was due to the manufacturing! Weird, just weird.

    Moxxey,

     

    For me personally it's not about that the Chinese couldn't produce quality products.

    I know they can. A good example is the Chinese hifi. Allthough it might not always be so easy to convince the press that this is the case.

     

    What I don't like with the outsourcing going on right now at B&O is...

    Mark my words.

    Next will be the high-end stuff as the Beolab 5's, Beovision XX etc.

    I can assure you that the prices of these products will follow inflation or a bit more. They will not become cheaper from being "made in China".

    Sure one can always defend this practise with "capitalism at work". But I don't buy that. In this case it might be a desperate move to "produce". Numbers is what needs to be produced. This is seen with too many companies. Shareholders need to be overly satisfied. Bonuses need to be given left and right. And to give these bonuses margin and big payouts need to be made to the shareholders. Keep them happy, and they applaude another bonus for the execs.

    Writing this I realize I'm portraying myself almost as red colored politically. 

    Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm a business owner myself. But I take great pride in firstly being Finnish, and owning a Finnish company, albeit a small one. We use Finnish products as far as possible. I employ a Finnish staff. I like to think I make my own small contribution to society.

    I like to think I drive my company with pride and quality, not greed. 

     

    Surely money is in the masses, in more ways than one. But I can't help to think a product as the BL5 couldn't be economically made in Denmark at close to 20K euros a pair. 

     

    Something that would be interesting to see is that are the higher end products of B&O selling stronger or weaker year by year? I suspect weaker, as we see this move to B&O play products. Could price play a role here?

    I know I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again.

    The prices of the TV's...

    They are ridiculous. I like my BV10, but it's not worth the price. 

     

    If one of your strongest marketing ideas is the masterlink, and the interconnection with your products and ultimately the idea of having your whole home filled with one brand, why on earth is it so lacking?

     

    On the positive note, we who own the fabulous BL5's, made in Denmark edition, maybe they will become collectable, as a Comex sub...? LaughingLaughingLaughing

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-21-2012 12:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Bentleyman – Excellent points. Completely agree with you! Are you a proud owner of a Bentley yourself as I am of a Lotus? ;-) British cars really are the best (although Italian cars come close).

     

    Hello Dkatz,

    Yes I like my old british made cars.Big Smile Here is my current 'old girl' whom I've had for about 6 yrs now. A 1988 Bentley Turbo R with 68,000 miles.

    And here is my everyday runabout Jag XJ8 from 1998 Smile my 7th Jaguar in the last 15 years.

    And prior to my 1988 Bentley, when I lived up in the north of Sweden I had a 1990 Rolls~Royce Silver Spirit MkII (pictured below)

    I bought that one in Essex, took it over to Sweden, registered it over there, and then flogged it through a guy called Anders Rhodin who runs the fantastic Rhodins Automobile Service in Trollhattan

     

    Dkatz - I'd like to see a picture of your Lotus that you are so proud of Smile can u post..?

    Regards,

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 1:43 PM In reply to

    • henrik
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Posts 299
    • Founder

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

    Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

    That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.
  • 01-21-2012 1:54 PM In reply to

    • Chris
    • Top 200 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-19-2010
    • Corbridge, UK
    • Posts 353
    • Gold Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    The price for B&O tv's is getting ridiculous in my book. Why they didn't make a Beovision 6-32 is beyond me if they could have kept things under £3-4,000. If products like the Beosound 8/Beolit 12 fill the coffers, so the company has the luxury of gambling on some extravagance then thats fine. Hopefully it will introduce then next generation of Beoworlders that will be here moaning predicting etc when i'm a dribbling geriatricErm.

    When is the new "budget" tv coming out that replaces the dreadful 8? Really tempted to get a 6 with hdmi sockets.

    This reply is a Merlot fuelled productionDrinks

    A Beovision 10-40 in black and red fret on order, Beo4, Beo6, many A8's, a pair of white and yellow Form 2's, Beocom 4, 28 inch Avant RF DVD, Apple TV and a wife that loves this stuff as much as i do! 

  • 01-21-2012 1:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    No sign of the new tvs I'm afraid! I think they could be quite a way off IMHO.

    Bv6-32 is the TV I always said they should have made - it would have been fantastic, with a wide appeal and a decent price!

    BV7-40MK4BR,7-32,6-22,6-23,6-26,BSnd5,9000,BLab9,3,4000,2,BCom2,6000,Btalk1200,LC2s,Lutron

  • 01-21-2012 2:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    henrik:
    Bentleyman:

    So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

    Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

    That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.

    Thank you Henrik.  Your examples add to my point.Smile

    Also - Avant was expensive, but I clearly recall pricing up Sony & Pana equivalent CRTs, a decent VCR, some good speakers and a suitable stand (not motorised, because no one made them except B&O)  to arrive at a similar package, and the Avant was still less than  twice as much.

    Don't recall the model numbers, but Sony did a white finish CRT, with a matching VCR ( £499 and stand - that was a £2000+ combination when Avant was £3,600

     

     

  • 01-21-2012 2:22 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Tod Daniel:

    Actually Moxxey, I think the BS8 is terrible! Its sound quality does not involve or invite. I think it's horrible and im convinced in years to come, this forum will say avoid stuff like this.

    Its no more than a £300 product with a B&O badge, out sourced in China to appeal to B&O's existing rich customers who simply do not know any better!

    Tod, I don't know you personally and, remember this is a forum only, but I don't take anything you say above seriously. The BS8 produces very good audio....for £890. It's not amazing - it won't go near my BL3s - but it's a great all-round product with very good audio for a decent price.

    50,000+ sales, mostly positive comments, good reviews tell me the opposite of what you're trying to say. So, very much discounted.

    Sad times, but I think some people on this board aren't moving with B&O and will be left behind. But without sounding too personal - it's only a forum - this might not be such a bad thing.

  • 01-21-2012 2:28 PM In reply to

    • mhw
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 06-29-2007
    • Norway
    • Posts 207
    • Gold Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Tod Daniel:

    Actually Moxxey, I think the BS8 is terrible! Its sound quality does not involve or invite. I think it's horrible and im convinced in years to come, this forum will say avoid stuff like this.

    Its no more than a £300 product with a B&O badge, out sourced in China to appeal to B&O's existing rich customers who simply do not know any better!

    It seems to me that you are the only one with that opinion. After all, it's their all-time top seller!

    But do you think it would have sounded any better if it was made in Denmark? That the prototype was a brilliant little speaker and the drawings was perfect when they left the R&D department in Struer, but the Chinese, beeing useless, assembled it all wrong?

  • 01-21-2012 2:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    henrik:
    Bentleyman:

    So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

    Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

    That is not true. Folkdeejay is correct, and your "facts" are wrong. :) At least here in Sweden/Scandinavia, B&O used to be quite common. Expensive, yes, but definitely not a brand only for the rich. Regarding the prices: when I bought my top-of-the-line LX tv in the early 90's it cost 1.4 times the price of Sony's comparable tv sets. When my parents bought their MXs 5-10 years earlier, it was the same. That's how it used to be! You can't make comparisons with house prices, you have to compare with similar products. The Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv, and since then their tv prices have sky-rocketed.

    Sorry but I'm not incorrect. I accept that using UK prices is an unfair comparison. But what about using average take-home pay instead....I gave this example as well as my house price analogy. What about using a new car price comparison instead...(1968 v. 2012 prices).

    A newly qualified teacher in 1968 had a net take home wage of £54 per month, today it's circa £1,500 per month.

    A Beovision 3000 in 1968 cost £400+

    On £54 a month it would take you 8 months of pay to buy the BV3000. Todays equivalent TV would be £12,000. So saying that the Avant was the first really expensive B&O tv is plainly incorrect.

    I accept joeyboygolf's point that TV's were very expensive back then (so the Avant was not the first really expensive tv obviously), so lets look at a Beomaster instead....

    A Beomaster 3000 in 1970 for example cost £135 + 9shillings. This would be 2.5 months pay @ £54 per month and so would equate to circa £4,000 today - very similar to the end of line price of a BS9000.

    But we are not talking about top of the line products such as BS9000, we are talking about B&O Play products costing £600-800. Dkatz, Tod and myself have been talking all along about the 'de-valuing' of the brand image/exclusivity. This is what we are trying to say.

    BTW I used to own a swedish property and so I know a little about the scandinavian property market myself. It's totally incomparable with the UK property market, so lets forget the house price comparison ok?. For the new price of a BV5 or a BV9 you could have bought a whole house in Sweden, with ground (and you still can! - see blocket.se) 

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 2:30 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

     ........so why do you keep adding your opinions to it, thereby fueling the debate/discussion/argument then..?

    I'm not sure I can take you seriously using the moniker "Bentleyman" from Rochdale.

    I'm not saying that my word is final, I'm saying the entire discussion is going around in circles. B&O are moving down a path which is having moderate to good success. The BS8 and Beolit 12 are, generally, being regarded as good to great products. Positive. However, yourself and a small handful - and I note a small handful - of users are determined to shout everyone else down.

    The point here is these Chinese outsourced products are actually darned good, particularly for the price. However, yourself and others insist on making a big deal out of this, with little objective whatsoever. Bayerische is now saying he thinks other products will be outsourced, but we have zero idea whether that will happen, so what's the point speculating? The reason the cheaper products are Chinese manufactured is simply due to the production level - B&O aren't going to sell 50,000 BL5s, in a year, as an example. They can justify the production of these products in Denmark. The reason they moved to China for the cheapest products is so they can meet demand (and keep up supply).

    The "devaluing" of the brand as you say. Well, that might stop a few Bentley-owning users from buying B&O products in future, but B&O's future is more with the masses, those under 35, and those people who can't afford property as a lot of the people have bought up property for profit, pushing up both the cost and rent.

  • 01-21-2012 2:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey:
    Sad times, but I think some people on this board aren't moving with B&O and will be left behind.

     

    The whole reason you and I are fans of B&O is because the history and heritage of B&O makes/has made the danish brand stand out from the mainstream of consumer electronics makers over the years.

    If, in 15 or 20 years time, B&O products were mid-priced/mid market stuff competing directly with JVC, Panasonic, Philips, Alba, etc in the mid-mainstream (which is the direction they are pushing) do you believe B&O will still have the same image & will we still be here discussing everything B&O on a dedicated Bang & Olufsen forum like this?

    I think perhaps not. 

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 2:50 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Bentleyman:

    The whole reason you and I are fans of B&O is because the history and heritage 

    At 35, our age group know very little about brand history and heritage and that barely influences our purchasing decisions. I guarantee you the majority of old school B&O customers do not buy because of the history and heritage, more likely as they can afford to walk in to a B&O store, hand over £15,000 for a BV9, walk out, give them the keys and get it all installed without having to worry about the specifics.

    Down here in Bath, there are many many 50+ year olds who surround me that have made significant money from property in this area. These guys have one thing in common: they all own B&O! I remember seeing one guy who lives a few doors down from here, walk in to my local dealer one day and say "how much is that TV (BV9)?" and then "ok, I'll take it", take out his credit card and pay in full there and then. Didn't get a demo, didn't talk to the sales people, just walked in and 10 minutes later walked out after spending £15K.

    This is the traditional B&O audience, particularly down here in Bath.

    That traditional B&O audience is diminishing and will continue to diminish. Why? As the likes of <35-year-olds can't afford B&O kit. They don't even go in to the stores. I can't remember seeing anyone younger than me buy a product from a B&O store.

    However, we represent the future. B&O understand this and it's one reason they are launching the B&O Play range, in association with Apple. To meet the demand, they have to be able to supply. To supply, they need to mass-manufacture. That's why they've moved these products to China.

    The future isn't the old-school traditional "walk in to B&O store and pay over the odds for premium product", sadly. That market is declining fast (it started declining a few years ago) and it's going to be made far worse as everyone <35 has far far less disposable income than people who've made a lot of money from the property market. Without naming names (again) :)

  • 01-21-2012 2:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    moxxey:

    I'm not sure I can take you seriously using the moniker "Bentleyman" from Rochdale.

    I wouldn't start trying to get clever if I were you. You're really not gonna get very far with that 'strategy'

    I've lived all over the place in fact including London, St.Albans, Chester, Isle of Man and in Sweden.

    And i've been interested in RR/Bentley long before this forum was born. And yes I do own/have owned RR, Bentley and upteen Jaguars. But i'm not here to talk about that. You are obviously happy with the dumbing down of B&O, whilst some of us are not too pleased with the brand going in that direction.

    Hope B&O dont go the way of Rover. In the 1950's 60's & 70's Rover was a prestigious, quality british car. Sometime in the mid 1980's they were bought out by some giant (think it was Honda, but could be wrong), they kept the Rover name and badged their japanese cars as 'Rovers'......they were crap & a far cry from the quality P5's & P6's of the 60's and 70's

    Where are Rover now? Image ruined, now defunked.

    If the same were to happen to B&O it would be a great shame. If it does though, it will be down to people of your opinion/strategy that kills it off.

    Thats all.

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 3:18 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Moxxey, Are you implying that all of us Beoworlders who went to the B&O store and bought a Beolit 12 this week without a demo are over 35?

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 01-21-2012 3:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    My parents bought an Avant 28" CTV in 2000. 

    They payed 12.000 FIM, or 2000 euros for it.

     

    Adjusted for inflation that's about 2500 euro today. IMO that would be a fair price for the BV10 40".

    The Avant was superiour for it's time. The BV10 honestly is nothing, but a very good looking shell. 

     

    It looks damn good on my wall, and the picture is nice. 

     

    Clouding in the picture and a sound no where near the avant. A digital reciever that B&O can't or won't pay the initiation fee for, so that it would work with pay TV channels in Finland. Only free view channels can be seen. No HDR. No Blue-Ray. (Sure the Avant didn't either, but the technology wasn't invented) Motorized stand an extra expense. (OK, so you want it wall mounted) 

    So what are we seeing from B&O lately?

    BS8 and Beolit12.

     

    While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-21-2012 3:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    bayerische:

    So what are we seeing from B&O lately?

    BS8 and Beolit12.

     

    While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

     

    Good points, well made. Agreed.

    Yes -  thumbs up

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 4:23 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    bayerische:

    My parents bought an Avant 28" CTV in 2000. 

    They payed 12.000 FIM, or 2000 euros for it.

     

    Adjusted for inflation that's about 2500 euro today. IMO that would be a fair price for the BV10 40".

    The Avant was superiour for it's time. The BV10 honestly is nothing, but a very good looking shell. 

     

    Pricing must be very different here in the USA. In 2000 my wife and I purchased a new Avant. The price was $8,500. In 2010 we purchased a Beovision 10-40 with a motorized stand. The purchase price for it was approximately $8,500. In my opinion, the BV10 is far superior to the Avant, both in sound and picture. I do not understand the complaints about B and O's current prices when a new BV10-40, adjusted for inflation, costs significantly less than the Avant did.

     

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 01-21-2012 4:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Dkatz:

    Bentleyman – Excellent points. Completely agree with you! Are you a proud owner of a Bentley yourself as I am of a Lotus? ;-) British cars really are the best (although Italian cars come close).

     

     

    @Dkatz - sent you a PM, check your inbox

    Yes -  thumbs up

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

  • 01-21-2012 5:05 PM In reply to

    • Dkatz
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on 10-25-2007
    • San Francisco, CA, USA
    • Posts 70
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    Moxxey – The point of the article was about Luxury goods in general. It also mentioned other brands that are exclusive. Yes B&O has had stores since the early 90s, in fact I remember when the first ones opened up when I was a kid and I used to go in there to marvel at their sliding doors on the Beocenters.

     

    I never said that B&O should reduce prices! So I have no suggestions for that, in fact I think B&O prices were reasonable for what they are! Luxury goods makers never do as well as wall-mart (or primark) for example as they are usually lower production! B&O might have many stores, but I know that some of them closed down. They also don't produce as much as Bose or other companies do and don't have outlets like they do. My point is that B&O is much more upmarket, Hermes also has many stores but their products are far from mass-produced as a luxury goods manufacturer should be kept fairly exclusive.

     

    B&O are already making a profit! Why can't people see that outsourcing to China and creating lower end mass-produced cheaper items is not the way that a company should go. B&Os CEO, board members and shareholders want more money so they outsource. Look at other high end manufacturers that charge about the same amount as B&O for audio products and yet sell far less, have their products even more high end, are considered higher end by audiophiles, and still make a profit whilst producing in countries like Denmark! A company says it's in trouble but pays out millions to execs who want even more money so they outsource to China.

     

    The Beolit 12 and BS8 will be a success, I'm not denying it, just like the Cygnia was for Aston Martin. However, I don't think that downgrading quality and marketing for the masses is the right thing to do for these companies, personally it pushes most luxury consumers away! Again if other high end audio manufacturers didn't have to outsource why does B&O? It's all about profit!

     

    Folkdeejay – I know how good the B&O CRT's were, I used to own an MX400 which I actually found thrown away in the basement of our flat, the neighbor probably got some cheap Sony LCD instead. I ended up selling it to a friend but that was the best picture quality I have seen in a TV. Far better than any Plasma or LED I have seen!

     

    I agree with most of your points and your insight is most useful! Thank you for this history of B&O products. Perhaps this it is because I grew up in a different time but for example the Beosound Ouverture in 1994 cost 1100 pounds and in 2004 it was 1395, not much of a price increase if you ask me, especially calculating in inflation. (In fact the Beocenter 2500 cost 1250 when it came out) My point is that it still was nearly a months salary to buy such an item in the early 90s and my family could never afford it even though I always wanted one and it was my life’s ambition as a child to own one in the future!

     

    I adore the 90s-00s products that B&O made, they really broke convention with design and engineering in these items and I love them more than their earlier products. I actually like the direction that B&O went in the 90s! My point is that the BS8 feels cheaper, the plastics feel cheaper, everything about it feels cheap in comparison to other B&O products. For me the BS8 is exactly like the matchbox sized cheap plastic replica's you get of cars. It's just not the real thing for me. I understand your points about survival but a high end audio manufacturer releasing an inferior product to appeal to the masses at a lower price range just to make more money is absurd to me, although “economically” it makes sense in every other aspect it doesn't!

     

    Puncher – I never said that China cannot produce high quality goods. Just that I have yet to see the same quality as I do from Denmark in Audio, Italy in Cotton, etc... It's not so simple as just telling them specs and having them manufacture to those specs. Who's doing the QC? People who have been trained for years on a specific product? Most of these factories manufacture lower end goods at the same time as mid-range goods in the same factory, perhaps by the same people. For me manufacturing is not just about having random people work in a factory (and yes most workers in Chinese factories are unskilled cheap labour). Again the point is not China itself, it would be the same story for the Philippines, Thailand, etc... or almost any developing country. You hire workers from day 1 who are trained in a matter of hours not years to make something that people in Europe do apprenticeships for years on. As I said I have yet to see any high end audio product, clothing, or almost any luxury good made in China that is as good as goods I have seen from Japan, most of Europe, etc...

     

    Name some companies that have outsourced and kept the quality, or name some super high end audio manufacturers that manufacture in China, most still don't! Again I ask you: If China is so amazing at manufacturing why aren't all professional still and motion camera's used in Hollywood made in China? In fact why isn't all cinema, audio, video equipment that is professional made in China? Why do companies like Sony, Panasonic and (including B&O) keep their higher end stuff manufactured at home?

     

    If B&O could be made to the same quality standards in China as they are in Denmark ALL OF B&O would be outsourced there! As Moxxey rightly pointed out most people don't check where products are made and most B&O consumers would still buy the products as Bose consumers do even though all of Bose is made in China! There's a good reason they don't and it's because they know that China cannot manufacture the highest end B&O products to the same standard!

     

    Nickeyg63 – I would disagree that the gap in superiority has diminished. They are not charging that much more for many products as they were in the early 90s as I demonstrated earlier in this post. Look at some of the prices of a Beosound Ouverture and the Beosound 3200, not that much more expensive, especially calculating inflation into it... I think it is a great price for a great product! The problem is obviously many people think it's too expensive but I certainly don't.

     

    Bayerische –

    I think the 90s B&O TVs are some of the best picture quality wise ever. Better than most LEDs and Plasmas to my eyes.

     

    It's interesting that Apple's annual revenue per worker is so high yet they share so little with their hard labour ;-). I guess the execs at the top get 90% of the workers money and hence why they can make such a profit in general. I'm sure with the new range we will see a spike in the revenue per worker (although no spike in wages for blue collar workers going up, especially in China).

     

    Moxxey – The point is that if the BS8 does fall apart in a couple of years then it proves that B&O products are not what they used to be. B&O used to be about lasting for many years, I would be happy owning a Beosound Ouverture from 1994 and I am sure many are still functioning today! That was always the beauty of B&O. I guess you are in the throwaway culture of today, just buy something cheap and throw away for new in a couple of years. This is truly sad!

     

    How many units a manufacturer sells is no indication of its quality. Look at all the garbage that Wallmart sells yet more Americans shop at Wallmart than almost anywhere else. People will buy anything with a name brand on it these days, they don't even look at quality. People have lowered their standards and don't want to invest in a product anymore, perhaps this is exactly why B&O has lowered theirs.

     

    Adamhornsby – Great points on the laptop analogy. For me high end audio is made more like a Rolls Royce and B&O in Struer I know is hand assembled and goes through the same kind of quality control as Miele. There is a reason that Miele lasts for so many years even decades being made in Germany with their strict quality control in THEIR OWN factory compared to a Chinese made Dishwasher, Washing Machine, Vacuum etc... that might last a few years and will never perform as well. There is nothing I have seen that tops Miele's build quality when it comes to home appliances.

     

    Bentleyman – Excellent point and exactly what I was saying about B&O never being an affordable cheap brand for most consumers to be able to afford. Going towards these cheap products is NOT going back to the way B&O was affordable to Consumers as it really wasn't. B&O are going in the opposite direction of where they were always headed the exclusive luxury goods market. In fact B&O products have become more affordable to people as their salaries have gone up much higher than the cost of B&O products as you rightly demonstrated with the teacher analogy!

     

    Bayerische – I agree with you. If B&O starts releasing the lower end products which are so affordable, less and less people will save up to buy the less affordable products. Think about it this way: if entry into B&O ownership is affordable, nobody will bother buying the more expensive stuff. They will say “I have a BS8 and Beolit 12, Why do I need anything else?.” I believe that this will detract from sales of their mid and upper range products!

     

    Chris – These new products might fill the coffers (or the pockets of the execs in charge) but that doesn't mean it will translate to cheaper TVs. Their higher end products will be the same cost if not higher if they will still be made in Europe. Their new TVs are a lot higher priced than the competition and most of their audio products but in looking at their audio products their prices haven't gone up as much over the past 20 years.

     

    Also you have to remember where as most of the companies such as Sony have outsourced in the past 20 years to manufacture in China and elsewhere, B&O TVs are still made mostly in Struer and assembled by hand. The cost of labour and materials alone should justify the cost compared to the other companies who make a much higher profit. Whilst other companies have outsourced to keep cost low B&O hasn't for their TVs. If you notice the price of TVs went up as they switched to more modern technologies such as Plasma, LED, etc... that are more expensive to produce and source than CRTs. If you look at an LED or Plasma comparable in size to a B&O, made by a Japanese company in Japan it would cost almost as much as the B&O!

     

    Moxxey – Do you truly believe that the ONLY reason B&O outsourced BS8 and Beolit 12 is for numbers and not for profit? I think that people will still buy B&O and profits will skyrocket for them. But I think that a company and business shouldn't simply be about profit. It should be about caring for their employees and workers, paying them fair wages, caring about the local community, etc... There is far more that corporate social responsibility entails in my book than profit!

     

    Bentleyman – I do fear that B&O might be competing with mainstream brands as you mentioned in the future. That is my biggest fear!

  • 01-21-2012 5:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang and Olufsen Outsourced

    mhw:

    It seems to me that you are the only one with that opinion. After all, it's their all-time top seller!

    @ mhw

    I'm not saying the BS8 is no good. I've not heard or seen one close up, so cant possibly comment. But just because it's their 'all time top seller' (is that true?) doesnt mean to say it's great either.....

    If top-seller equalled top quality, that would mean the Ford Escort or Ford Fiesta would be top quality. I've nothing against escorts or fiesta's but I wouldn't call them top quality would you? They were not the top product line within Ford Motor Company, nor were they a top product within the car industry as a whole. Biggest sellers yes, but top quality product? no.

    I hope the BS8 is massively profitable and successful for B&O, and that that success will ensure the adequate funding necessary to develop some new really top end stuff like successors to the BS9000, Beolab 5, and perhaps a new top end line of Beovisions for the years to come.  

    Michael

    BV5, BV Avant, MX4000, MX1500

    BS 7000, BS 5500

    Penta III, Penta II, BL 4000, RL 60.2,  RL 35, CX-100 Alu

    BL 7000, MCP6500, MCP5500,  BL 5000,  Beo4 (x2), BL 1000 (x2)

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