Moxxey – My quest is not to change the way things are. I know that I myself cannot do that and I know that most people don't care where the product is made. My point is that I personally don't want to support it because it's a personal choice not because everyone is suddenly going to follow me or because of a few people like me the whole industry will go down. I am not naïve and I understand all this. Most Americans still bought GM/Ford and IBM even though those companies did business with the Nazi's until the Americans joined the war. Ford got a medal of honour from Hitler and IBM used to make machines that the Nazi's would use to count how many Jews and other people were being gassed, etc... The point is that it was pretty much out in the open (especially with Ford) and people didn't really care. Business is business and Americans still bought those products. I am not comparing Chinese to Nazi's but am just saying that we all have a choice, we can buy products of inferior quality made by cheap labour if we want or we can choose not to. It's a personal choice and I know it won't change anything but I personally don't want to invest my money into it.

In regards to fashion, yes many brands are outsourcing, but it is not the same with high sound quality audio manufacturing, there are much much less outsourcing (especially among Danish and mainland European companies). I can also name the same amount or more fashion brands that choose not to outsource as you do that do. Some examples of ones who don't produce their clothes and leather in developing countries are: Chanel, Louis Vuitton, Danielle Allessandrini, ATO, Jil Sander, Hermes, Kiminori Morishita, N. Hollywood, and thousands more, not to mention mass produced cheap high street companies like American Apparell, Simon Spur, etc... The point is we have all have a choice.

I personally have noticed a decline in quality of clothing in outsourcing, a good example would be Helmut Lang, a brand that used to be super high fashion and had cotton that was as smooth as silk (italian ringspun cotton), in comparison the cotton they use now is like sandpaper and where as you used to buy it in SuperBrands in Selfridges they've downgraded it to an area where they sell more generic brands as the image has gone down with it. No, many people don't check the label, but if they are as keen on quality as I am they will most likely notice the difference.

Again there's a reason why most high end audio manufacturers, leather manufacturers, or most high end quality goods are still manufactured in developed countries: because it's more reliable, it won't break as easily, and it's made by highly skilled people working for decent wages. On top of this the materials used are much better quality, again this is the reason B&O manufactures their own plastics and metals in their own factory, they feel it better than cheaper Chinese plastics and metals that they could buy...

Tod Daniel – The BL6000s are excellent speakers but not exactly compact or table top. Either way they wouldn't integrate the BL3 or BL4000s with the iPod in store because then nobody would buy the BS8! That's where they make all their money, it's so cheap to manufacture and they still manage to sell it for an insane profit compared to the BL3 or BL4000s... (percentage wise).

If you connected an iPad or iPod to a BL3 then a lot of people won't buy the B&O remotes which I think are so much sheeker looking, more ergonomic and better build quality.

Bentleyman – Excellent points. Completely agree with you! Are you a proud owner of a Bentley yourself as I am of a Lotus? ;-) British cars really are the best (although Italian cars come close).

Rmclachlan – The difference is that Porsche didn't move car production to China. Yes I still prefer the 911 over the Boxster as do most. Louis Vuitton and Hermes have fairly affordable items, far cheaper than most B&O ones. I have a wallet that was about 150 GBP from the Louis Vuitton store that was made in France. Likewise you can buy stuff anywhere from 100GBP to 10,000GBP at Louis Vuitton and Hermes so it is affordable for most people if they just buy one thing. To top it off LV's wallets last many years sometimes decades, mine I've had for about 3-4 years and it still looks new, I've never cleaned it or taken particularly good care of it.

In terms of cars Aston Martin is quite expensive, up there with some entry level Ferrari's, a Porsche 911 can cost 70-80k USD for a base model, an Aston Martin is more in the 100, and a Boxster will be in the 50s so much cheaper than an Aston. An Aston is also a lot more handbuilt than a Porsche. Porsche is more comparable to Lotus than Aston in my opinion. Either way I understand your anology with cars, but neither Aston Martin nor Porsche are outsourcing to China. In fact I feel that B&O going middle market is more like them going from Aston Martin to Chrysler...

Puncher – The point is that Czech is not exactly a third world country that China is and the wages have EU minimum wage standards and EU labour laws attached. The Czech Republic is known for manufacturing good quality for less, look at Skoda. On top of that B&O has their own factory in Czech from my understanding, which would mean it is not outsourced, they don't have their own factory in China!

I know of many artisans in Italy who do create their own goods and it's not as simple as attaching a button to put a label on. I'm not sure about Italian laws but in many European countries they have origin laws that state that at least 50% (in some countries 70%) must be made in that country. I know many Japanese people who go to Italy to learn under craftsman how to weave cloth, make shoes by hand, make violins, etc... and then go back to Japan after a few years of apprenticeship with their new found skills to open their own companies. This is not what is happening in China. Another point is if some brands are illegally putting made in Italy when it is not then they should be closed down for that illegal activity.

Moxxey – There are other ways they can try to make money and I am sure they will make a huge profit margin from the BS8 and Beolit 12. The point is that most other very high end audio manufacturers do not outsource and they still make a profit and survive. B&O already makes half or more of their products in Czech and are already saving on labour costs and make a bigger percentage of profit! They are becoming like most corporations that focus on profit for the CEO, boardmembers and shareholders...

As mentioned in the Czech republic they have their own factory where they build their products. Technically its not outsourcing and they have much more control. It's the same as Louis Vuitton making some products in Spain but still having the tanneries there and the same quality of craftsmanship and apprentices etc... The US and Japan have half the labour cost of most of Scandanavia, does that mean that these countries are developing or have horrible build quality? They still aren't developing like China and Czech has EU labour laws and minimum wages as mentioned!

Mr10Percent – Great point on the comparison with Aston Martin!

Folkdeejay – the point is as Mr10Percent made with Aston Martin releasing the Cygnia. It has severely damaged the reputation of the brand. In the music world you would call it selling out, a rock band playing pop tunes for the masses to make millions whilst destroying their image and heritage!

Great Article which displays exactly the reasons why a luxury brand should not mass produce and sell lower end products to the masses. It's also about exclusivity, rarity, etc... If everyone can afford and have a B&O product it makes it less of something that people want. BMW and Mercedes each make over a million cars a year, now look at car makers like Bentley and Rolls Royce or Aston Martin and Lotus, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Maserati, they all make very low volume and are all head turners and people want theme exactly because they are rare and exclusive. The way B&O is turning now is looking more towards mass production than luxury.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1809936/businesslarge-when-its-not-a-good-idea-for-your-brand-to-be-1

Dkatz:

Great Article which displays exactly the reasons why a luxury brand should not mass produce and sell lower end products to the masses. It's also about exclusivity, rarity, etc... 

That's a completely different market. We're not in the rare watch market or special edition car market here. If B&O started producing limited versions of their products, perhaps, but they *do* produce products for the masses.

Indeed, B&O have more stores than most retailers. Direct stores on the high-street, stores attracting the masses. That's how they operate.

B&O have struggled massively in the last few years. In addition to this, we've had many a debate on here about them reducing prices - above you say that, apparently, there are ways they can do this without outsourcing. Well, I'm sure you know B&Os business better than they do then. Perhaps you should volunteer yourself as some business guru?

Frankly, this whole discussion is going no-where. The BS8 and Beolit 12 are fantastic products. We're debating this as if they've failed, as if they aren't up to the standard we'd expect. Apart from "Made in China", there's NOTHING wrong with my Beosound 8. It's superb. I've also seen the Beolit 12 and it's better than I expected. Opinion is that most people are impressed.

So, the whole darned discussion - running now to 5 pages - is futile. In a years time the whole "Made in China" thing will be irrelevant. B&O will be making a profit, announcing that the BS8 (they've already announce it's their best-selling product) and Beolit 12 are a success and that custom is up. Which will end the debate you are trying to fuel about how they shouldn't be making stuff in China.

Of course, you're fueling of this "Made in China" debate will get some support on here. There are a lot of old-school B&O enthusiasts. But there seems to be very little point in discussing the pros and cons of the BS8 and Beolit 12 (amongst others) being made in China as, the irony being, they are a success. Again, as I say above, you're discussing them as if they've failed or the build quality is pants. It isn't. Beolit 12 is as good as any B&O product I've purchased or used.

Dkatz - with respect, I feel you are missing point, based on a "rose-tinted" view of the reality of the heritage of B&O, its actual trading history and where many employees and dealers would see the brand over the last 80 years.

Prior to the panel TV range, B&O made CRT for decades.  These CRT models were, without doubt, just about the best pictures in the world.  Early on, B&O made TV's in lovely wooden cabinets (as was the norm, later on some plastics were used - although the Avant/BV5 cabinets were, interestingly, made by the same family owned sub-supplier that made many of the early , iconic wooden TV cabinets).  But these plastics were finished to a high standard, in a range of colours.  No one else did this.

The point here is, these class-leading TV's retailed at a factor of 2 or 3 times the price of the branded "high street" brands such a Pana's Quintrix,  or Sony's Trinitron etc etc  They were never like Aston Martin, when the classic vintage cars were always a multiple of x10 or more above a Ford.

B&O was an aspirational brand, for sure - but it was not a brand only for the super rich.  I guess a 1960's Aston Martin  DB-whatever would not typically have been bought by a teacher, a kitchen salesperson or a local council officer.  In my family, B&O items were bought in that decade, by those tradespeople.

It was often told to dealers in the 90's training sessions that B&O had over 20% market share in Denmark in its heyday during the days of CRT and analogue audio - this never applied to any of the top end fashion/car brands you list - I am sure that even the stylish Italians don't have 20% of households walking around in bespoke designer clothing - and they never did.

Pre CD, B&O made tuners, tapes (cassette and reel) and turntables.  Again, many are considered to be amongst the best ever made - in performance and build.  They were not cheap - because they were made in Denmark - but they were still within reach of most middle class (or even financially secure working class)  buyers - albeit with a bit of saving up.... and B&O shipped a lot of product, which is why there is still a lot of decent kit doing the rounds on ebay, and being talked about here and elsewhere. 

Some of the smaller audio brands you mention (and others you don't) are little more than one-man bands, and even the bigger ones are tiny in comparison - most of them would probably be able to fit their entire office & production facilities in the Entrance Hall at Struer.  They may be handmade, bespoke items, but it is the small quantities and economies of scale that determine much of the high price - wich then appeals to "elitist" buyers - although I would suggest in many models the transistors, capacitors, relays and many other components aren't quite as bespoke as the buyers often assume.

In the digital era, even the most esoteric CD players have, at their heart, an "outsourced" CD mech and bought in DAC chipset.....because they all are.

In truth, most of the Hi-Fi brands that were historically comparable to B&O in the marketplace have ceased to exist - or carry on as a brand name owned by a tech-giant and stuck onto crap.

In recent years , and informing your view of exclusivity via price differential - Panel TV's, and the digital media of the last decade or so have seen B&O re-aligned against mass-market brands - becoming a brand that is 5 or 10 times the cost of typical high street brand....but this is, historically, a change of strategy and so is not at all typical of the brands heritage.. (there is a whole other topic here about the distribution model etc) but suffice to say that it is only very recently that a B&O audio system costs a buyer more for a middle range system (say BS4 with Beolab 8000) or a mid-range TV (say BV7-40 with bits) than the amount of an average UK monthly salary.

Buying an MX7000 and a full 7000 system, linked up and installed by the dealer and taking pride of place in the living room,  was not 4 or five months take-home pay for the average earner.   Buying a BV7-40, 7.2 with a Bsnd5 is.

So the comparisons aboout branding and heritage with clothing and cars are valid, but only up to a point.  Also - isn't it the case that virtually every car manufacturere benefits ( in some form) from subsidies via trade agreements/tax breaks, job placements and so on ?

Also - why do you think it is that ALL these brands produce hats/jackets/keyfobs/matchbox sized replica cars etc etc to sell to people - isn't it to foster the brand image, desirability and kudos ? - because there is a demand to "own" the brand, and at some level,  "buy into" it ....even in "the masses" (who could never actually own the actual car) - masses is your term, not mine..... .  

Are these "teaser items" hand-made ?  Probably not.

In the audio world, unlike the car world, there is no market for matchbox-sized replica's of speakers, clothing with the brand logo on it, keyfobs etc etc. 

But there is a demand for portable audio to enhance MP3 sources.  However, unlike your declared happiness/ability to pay £1500 for an ipod dock ( as long as it is made in Europe) that simply isn't a viable marketing strategy  on which to launch a new "entry-level" range.

You have, imo, missunderstood what/where B&O has been historically within the audio/video world, and so the repeated assertion that they are betraying their heritage is simply wrong.

Outsourcing to the degree that they do now do is a new thing - but the world has changed (and that is a larger debate) and so has the marketplace. 

B&O must adapt or they will go the way of Kodak or SAAB.

Dkatz:

I am not comparing Chinese to Nazi's but am just saying that we all have a choice, we can buy products of inferior quality made by cheap labour if we want or we can choose not to.

 I'm afraid your your lengthy replies are somewhat devalued by your refusal to accept than China can produce high quality goods. If the goods received are inferior then the sourcing company is at fault for selecting the wrong supplier.

Horrible build quality is not implicit in a Chinese sourced product - they will have to meet a previously agreed quality standard before they are accepted by the sourcing company. Failure to meet this standard will mean the product has to be corrected or replaced at the suppliers expense.

a ligh aside

@folkdeejay - my applause sir - a small island of truth in a sea of hyperbole.

Rolex are a top brand, and they seem to make money(not profit apparently). It's either their Chinese parts offshoot, or it's the low labour costs of the Democratic Workers Collective that is Switzerland. Neither i suspect. But they do charge alot of money and seem to sell alot of watches.

I agree with folkdeejay the gap between the superiority of B&O has diminshed and they are asking 20 times the price of a samsung tv with same panel!

If you look at most of the prestige car manufacturers we have mentioned they have a 2 tier sales plan entry models and top end models and this is how B&O are trying to get the brand to sell to another audience.

In my opinion they are modernising, I think we should get used to it or they will end up like kodak or saab

I agree...........the real world is still alive and kicking!!

Puncher:

@folkdeejay - my applause sir - a small island of truth in a sea of hyperbole.

 

 

 

joeyboygolf:

I agree...........the real world is still alive and kicking!!

Puncher:

@folkdeejay - my applause sir - a small island of truth in a sea of hyperbole.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your kind words guys.... kind of playing devils advocate, but I just don't subscribe to the elitist, price-determines-quality ethos behind many of the posts.

I do accept there are issues to do with labour rights and T&C's in many Eastern facilities - but as per my earlier posts, the West does not have a glorious past in this respect either - and in many respects, they only way forward for "emerging markets" is to drive up standards by working with them....slow and less than ideal as it might be.

Right - I've had my say now.

folkdeejay:

Thanks for your kind words guys.... kind of playing devils advocate, but I just don't subscribe to the elitist, price-determines-quality ethos behind many of the posts.

I do accept there are issues to do with labour rights and T&C's in many Eastern facilities - but as per my earlier posts, the West does not have a glorious past in this respect either - and in many respects, they only way forward for "emerging markets" is to drive up standards by working with them....slow and less than ideal as it might be.

Right - I've had my say now.

 

good stuff - made a lot of sense

Chris:

Rolex are a top brand, and they seem to make money(not profit apparently). It's either their Chinese parts offshoot, or it's the low labour costs of the Democratic Workers Collective that is Switzerland. Neither i suspect. But they do charge alot of money and seem to sell alot of watches.

 

As Rolex don't show any figures about watches sold, profits or even turnover it's hard to say.

However, they do make a healty profit, but Rolex is not a company per se, it's a foundation, or trust. Hence they can be so secretive.

They send about 600.000 - 700.000 watches a year to COSC, to have them chronometer certified. This is the only indication as to how many watches they are actually selling. As most Rolex's are chronometer grade, the estimate is about 700 thousand watches sold each year.

But the major difference between Rolex and B&O is (manufacturing and outsourcing not included) B&O makes consumer electronics, which have a very short lifespan. Rolex makes watches. Rolex are a very slow evolving company in terms of design. The oyster case has looked the same for over 50 years. Only recently have the introduction of the "super case" essentially the same oyster case, only a bit beefier, but in most models, the same 40mm case diameter has been kept.

A 15 year old TV from B&O is going to be looked at as something old and strange by 99% of people today, while a 15 year old properly maintained Rolex will be the envy of 99% of your friends.

A 50 year old Stereo system from B&O might barely work, and be chop-wood while the 50 year old Rolex Submariner or Milgauss, may get you a new Ferrari if you choose to sell it.

Rolex are experst at marketing, something B&O are not. Rolex don't post a video where the SELF LOVING CEO, speaks in a very strong accent, and pronouces "Bang & Olufsen" in the proper Danish way, but for many becomes an incomprehensible word. To me it looks like "Tue" tries to copy Steve Jobs with these appearances in videos to the public.

I would love to see B&O production stay in Denmark, and the prices they charge, I'm hard pressed to see why it wouldn't be possible even with the high cost of workforce. Maybe not for the ipod docks, but surely the BV10, BL5's etc?

What I would like to see is the cost structure of the labour in B&O. How expensive is the top  of the company, and how big is it? There's 2500 employees. 

B&O annual revenue per worker is about 244.000 euros

Apple annual revenue per worker is about 1.500.000 euros

Nokia annual revenue per worker is about 320.000 euros

Microsoft annual revenue per worker is about 586.000 euros

Nokia is known to have a very dated, and complex hierarcy. That's a big reason to the problems they are facing.

Puncher:

Dkatz:

I am not comparing Chinese to Nazi's but am just saying that we all have a choice, we can buy products of inferior quality made by cheap labour if we want or we can choose not to.

 I'm afraid your your lengthy replies are somewhat devalued by your refusal to accept than China can produce high quality goods. If the goods received are inferior then the sourcing company is at fault for selecting the wrong supplier.

And, as I said above (my reply went in to moderation, so may have been missed), the Beosound 8 and Beolit 12 are two successful B&O products. Dkatz is trying to fuel an argument over a non-issue.

If, in 6 months, the Beolit 12's are falling apart or appear to be sub-standard, then let's reopen this debate. However, my Beosound 8 is one of the best B&O products I own. Indeed, for the price, it's arguably the best. I have zero complaints about its functionality, design, build quality or longevity. Ok, if the thing falls apart in a couple of years, fair enough - at that price I'd be happy to look at upgrading or moving up to a newer model.

The irony of this argument is that B&O are now producing products we can all afford, look good, well built and perform superbly. Which is why Beosound 8 sales hit and exceeded 50,000 units.

How would the product be "improved" by moving manufacturing back to Denmark (considering most B&O manufacturing is done in the Czech Republic, we seem to constantly overlook this point...)? Costs may or may not go up, but I bet B&O couldn't meet the 50,000 production levels required to meet that demand. And that's a reason they moved to China, as they have the capabilities of producing more mass market products, which B&O need to meet the stock level demand required by the Apple Stores.

 Ah DJ, this takes me back to yesteryear when we spent many happy hours supping coffee in King Street and putting the world to rights.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the world has changed. There is no argument with that andif Bang & Olufsen are to continue, they must also change.

Opman

Shhh - you'll blow my cover

And mine ha ha

Looks like I need to catch up a bit with this thread! I agree totally with Dkatz, manufacturers are constantly perusing a profit over quality. I liked the Dyson example, still the same price as they were made here, obviously making much more of a mark up.

I don't agree that China has skilled workers, there is no skill in assembling a product such as a laptop. Rolls Royce aero plane engines or Rolex watches are however built by skilled workers in Europe!

I think a lot about it is a brands reputation, I'll go back to my example of Miele. They have never outsourced, and are still made in Germany, a very high labour cost country, probably not outsourcing as they can keep a tight grip on quality control. Yet they have a reputation of being the best, and had the best financial performance ever as a company in 2010, so people must be buying what are expensive and rather luxury items. 

folkdeejay:

Dkatz - with respect, I feel you are missing point, based on a "rose-tinted" view of the reality of the heritage of B&O, its actual trading history and where many employees and dealers would see the brand over the last 80 years.

Prior to the panel TV range, B&O made CRT for decades.  These CRT models were, without doubt, just about the best pictures in the world.  Early on, B&O made TV's in lovely wooden cabinets (as was the norm, later on some plastics were used - although the Avant/BV5 cabinets were, interestingly, made by the same family owned sub-supplier that made many of the early , iconic wooden TV cabinets).  But these plastics were finished to a high standard, in a range of colours.  No one else did this.

The point here is, these class-leading TV's retailed at a factor of 2 or 3 times the price of the branded "high street" brands such a Pana's Quintrix,  or Sony's Trinitron etc etc  They were never like Aston Martin, when the classic vintage cars were always a multiple of x10 or more above a Ford.

B&O was an aspirational brand, for sure - but it was not a brand only for the super rich.  I guess a 1960's Aston Martin  DB-whatever would not typically have been bought by a teacher, a kitchen salesperson or a local council officer.  In my family, B&O items were bought in that decade, by those tradespeople.

@ folkdeejay

I'm sorry to 'rain on your parade' fella, but I'm going to have to correct you (and all those that have been piling in to agree with you, puncher, nickyg63, joeyboygolf etc.) - due to the plain fact that you are one who is incorrect.

And here is why :-

Back in September 1966 my Mother & Father bought their first house together, prior to getting married in March 1967. The house was a stone built property called 'The Manse' with 3 bedrooms. The price they paid for it was £1,550 (in Sept '66).

The Bang & Olufsen television of that time was the Beovision 3000. Please see the following link to Beocentral.com

http://beocentral.com/beovision3000-1960s

Scroll to the foot of the page and you can see that (according to Beocentral) the list/retail price of this set in 1969 was 398 Guineas.

1 Guinea was equal to £1 + 1shilling.  Therefore 398 Guineas was a little over £400.

This means that to buy a Beovision 3000 in 1969 was the equivalent of over 25% of the cost of my parents first house.

This same property in todays terms would be priced somewhere between £160,000 - £180,000 (even in the current depressed property market).

25% of lets say £170,000 is £42,500   This, in relative terms, is what buying a Beovision 3000 would have cost in todays prices.

As a further illustration of this, back in 1968/69 tax year, my mother was a newly qualified teacher. (She still has her payslips from the time & I have seen them.) Her net monthly pay in '68/69 as a newly qualified teacher was £54 per month. This meant that to buy the Beovision 3000 would have cost 8 months of net salary.

The net salary of a newly qualified teacher today is somewhere in region of £1,500 per month. Therefore, 8 months of £1,500 would be £12,000. Although B&O do still make TV's costing this and more, the latest additions to the range are, without doubt, heading decidely downmarket.....You are trying to make out that B&O are not heading 'downwards' in terms of product affordability - quite simply this is wrong.

I have asked my mother what she would have thought about spending 398 Guineas on a Television in 1969. After she had picked herself up off the floor, she said that spending 8 months salary or 25% of their property value on a television set would have been absolutely and completely 'out of the question!'. Not suprisingly. 

So, i'm afraid that your claim that B&O having never been beyond the reaches of 'ordinary people' is, quite simply, incorrect. 

Bang and Olufsen have historically always been a brand that only the rich or 'very comfortably off' could afford easily. More middle earning people could, if they wanted B&O very much, save up for some months or even years in order to buy B&O. Today, with B&O's 'Play' range of products priced at £500-£1,000, your average bank clerk, supermarket cashier, factory worker (i.e. unskilled/semi skilled worker) can fairly easily afford a BS8 or Beolit 12 and the like. Quite possibly someone on a very modest £15k to £25k salary are able to afford one out of a single months wages (or maybe a couple of months wages perhaps).

folkdeejay:

folkdeejay : "You have, imo, missunderstood what/where B&O has been historically within the audio/video world, and so the repeated assertion that they are betraying their heritage is simply wrong."

I'm afraid not my friend. The facts speak for themselves, and when the real facts are considered, (as opposed to your own opinions and your own historical 'recollections'  you are in fact the one who has 'misunderstood what/where B&O has been historically within the audio/video world'.

All televisions were expensive in 1969, they were still recent technology. I know 'cos I was there "fella".

Not as expensive as B&O, I'll grant you. However, they were expensive enough to mean that most people rented and very few were purchased outright.

p.s. I could argue my case properly if only this bloody forum would let me post a longer reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

adamhornsby:

Looks like I need to catch up a bit with this thread! I agree totally with Dkatz, manufacturers are constantly perusing a profit over quality. I liked the Dyson example, still the same price as they were made here, obviously making much more of a mark up.

I don't agree that China has skilled workers, there is no skill in assembling a product such as a laptop. Rolls Royce aero plane engines or Rolex watches are however built by skilled workers in Europe!

I think a lot about it is a brands reputation, I'll go back to my example of Miele. They have never outsourced, and are still made in Germany, a very high labour cost country, probably not outsourcing as they can keep a tight grip on quality control. Yet they have a reputation of being the best, and had the best financial performance ever as a company in 2010, so people must be buying what are expensive and rather luxury items. 

 

You might want to leave Rolls Royce out of this discussion because not all RR aero engines are made in the UK.  The new RR Trent 1000 is also being assembled in Singapore.  If you look at the Rolls Royce homepage, you will notice it really is an international company with manufacturing plants and workers all over the world.  Roll Royce automobiles are made in Britain but is owned by a BMW who really make all the decisions and collect the profits.

Great discussion though.

I would add one more item about the technical abilities of the Chinese.  China is only the third country in the world to have a manned space program after the US and Russia. They are planning to have a small manned space station in orbit within the next two years and plan to be on the moon by 2020.  These are significant technical achievements.  China should not be dismissed as the land of low paid workers who produce cheap goods.

We bought our first house in 1982 for £11500 (a terrraced doer-upper), a year later I bought my MX2000 for approx. £540. This was very reasonable compared to the competition at about £350. That house too is now worth ~£180,000. If TV's prices increased at the same rate as houses why aren't run of the mill 20inch Sony TV's now £5,500?

My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

I was a junior Engineer when I bought the TV and my BS5000 system i.e. not wealthy at all.

Puncher:

My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

 

Amen!

Puncher:

My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

 

Amen!

bayerische:

Puncher:

My conclusion would be that consumer electronics prices and house prices are not related.

 

Amen!

Can't this thread grind to a halt? It's a discussion going no-where. We have people saying the Chinese can't produce quality, but who the hell cares? The proof is in the pudding and the pudding is damned good - the Chinese BS8 and Beolit 12 are great.

Miele may produce their washing machines in Germany, but I can also tell you that Miele purchasers I know say that recent Miele products are not a patch on old Miele products, which were built like tanks. Even Miele are finding ways to cut costs, like all manufacturers.

I've never seen a discussion before, at such length, where the argument is over successful products. How on earth can any create an argument around this?

People here are putting out daft arguments about quality of manufacturing.....as if the BS8/Beolit 12 were failures and the reason was due to the manufacturing! Weird, just weird.