Myself and the other "last of the Summer Wine"  Chris are both proud Miele Men. It's a shame Dyson moved from the Malmesbury factory but I guess the company has moved into a different league volume wise.

I once delivered some goods to the Tannoy building in north London, but am not sure if they make goods there still. Marshalls was another building I used to pass often and wonder. Their new earphones look good and arent bad, but are just another firms but with a Marshall label. Shame really.

moxxey:

There are a couple of people on this board who are always complaining about the price of the BS8 - they say it needs to be even cheaper. Now, I'm not going to fully disagree I'd like to see it come in at £699, but you are getting a lot of £890. You receive speakers close to BL4000 quality.

 

BL4000 and BS8 are really in no way comparable imho.

Jonathan:

I'm sorry, but for me this thread reeks of snobbery, racism and gross generalisation..

I agree, in some parts.

At the end of the day B&O is doing what is financially necessary, from what i can see. After all it's business.

The only sour thing to me is that they are moving closer to that awful high production consumerism model, which is not good for the earth. I love my B&O equipment for its longevity - i do not need to keep buying new things, over utilising the planets resources and creating more waste that can not be broken down.

I haven't been on BeoWorld for quite a while. Have missed alot by the looks of it!

bayerische:

 

However, a fundamental problem in the Western world, especially in Europe and even more so in Scandinavia is the price of the work force. Your example of 55 euros/hour for a factory worker is probably correct, but at the same time it's absolutely mad!

 

That is dead right! It is crazy that people think such things as the BS8 would even exist if we could not find a source of cheap manufacturing - and the developed world it is not it! (hate all this idealist Marxist cr@p!) China will be out of the equation one day, as their workforce demand higher and higher pay they potentially need to outsource some of their manufacturing! This is a cyclic process I think we have seen a peak in the quality of living over the last 30 years and this is not sustainable, and has to be reset to some extent!

Anyway, I agree with above there are a lot of unrealistic expectations and unfortunately Jonathan's statement seems to ring some truth here too.

TerryM – My Leica M3 from 1967 is better built than a modern Leica M7 for example and you don't have to pay $5000 for a new M7 one but rather $1000 or less for a used M3. The point is many people think that build quality has gone down over the years. They were saying the same thing about build quality when mass production started in the 19^th century during the industrial revolution, there were news articles condemning it. I think in the past 50 years it's not so much the build quality of Leica, Miele, etc... that has gone down as the materials used, for example more plastics, cheap feeling versus heavy duty chromed steel, etc...

Dave – I agree that B&O is a business but not all businesses outsource, and many that don't have survived many decades or even centuries without doing so. As mentioned most high end audio manufacturers do not outsource, charge the same, sometimes less or more than B&O and still manage to make good money for the company, employees, and CEO/Owner. I do agree with you on the mass-market binge they are going on is going to make wasteful products.

Step1 – As mentioned most other really high end audio manufacturers don't outsource so it is sustainable for them. They also don't usually make cheap plastic iPod docks. In fact I wish that B&O didn't even make this product in China or Denmark or anywhere. You are right that it is not viable to make it in Denmark but I would argue it should not have been made.

Why do people need one of these things? I don't like the whole world going into iPod integration. Why not save up and buy some BL4000 or BL3 speakers that will last you a couple of decades and just buy a connector to hook it up to your iPod which you can put on your desk? Then you will have real B&O build and sound quality with your iPod or computer or Mp3 device or even CD player... It's products like the BS8 that ruin B&Os image not only because they outsource but mostly because those products are mass-market consumer products of the likes of Bose and other such companies not high end audio manufacturers!

In regards to peoples posts on Racism. I have met more Chinese people who think they produce bad quality products compared to Europe than Europeans or Americans. I lived with many Chinese flatmates and most of them were proud of their Chinese heritage but they all still thought that European made products were much much better quality. There is in fact an image among Chinese that their own products are inferior. This is why most rich Chinese will buy Lattanzi italian handmade shoes for $5000-$10000, or real LV, Hermes, leather products made in France, and even B&O made in Denmark. Perhaps this is another reason they haven't ruined Volvo's image. Some rich Chinese I've heard will go as far as to buy Japanese Rice as they think it's superior to their own cheaper Chinese rice. It's quite amazing how well the ultra high end luxury goods companies are doing SELLING NOT OUTSOURCING to China! The reason why I say rich Chinese is because there is hardly a middle class there and only rich people can afford to buy those types of foreign products where as in Europe, Japan and America it is the middle class who can afford it. Hence why you get wages for $1.68 an hour, they've only been going up pennies so will be a while before companies move somewhere else, especially with China's industrial infrastructure in place. Africa and other places are not viable because they don't have factories and infrastructure built up there and companies won't invest in that if they can still be in Asia for cheap. By supporting Chinese made products you are supporting the system they have in place, factory owners in China and foreign companies getting rich off of workers getting paid some of the lowest wages in the world whilst the rich get richer off of them instead of giving them decent wages. I would rather support companies and countires that pay their employees well enough to have a nice middle class life!

Totally agre with Dkatz.  Dont knock BOSE though. 30 / 40 years on their Pro 802 speakers take some beating and my Acoustimass AM5 speakers were the best speakers that I ever owned!!! Far superior to any of B&O's offerings at the time!!!

Dkatz:

By supporting Chinese made products you are supporting the system they have in place, factory owners in China and foreign companies getting rich off of workers getting paid some of the lowest wages in the world 

Good luck with that quest. I guarantee you one thing: you won't change a thing. Consumers (British consumers being some of the worst) are obsessed with shopping, getting brands cheaply and generally do not care where products are made.

I have a friend who works in a store that sells Loro Piana, Armani, Brioni, D&G and other mens clothes. More and more of their products are being manufactured in China. They've not had a single complaint - not one - that the quality has reduced or that they have "made in China" on the washing label. In fact, no-one notices. They just care that they've bought a brand.

This is the fundamental problem. And we've completely lost track of the original argument, which was the quality of Chinese manufacturing. As we've seen with the Beolit 12, it's great. That's a top product, receiving widespread positive reaction.

So, by all means go on a quest not to buy Chinese manufactured products, but you'll be sadly banging your head against the wall as the demand out there, from consumers, is driving developers to reduce costs and, as a result, find cheaper manufacturers.

And, yes, it is somewhat ironic that Chinese are coming to Britain to buy our (European) brands and goods.

Dkatz:

Why do people need one of these things? I don't like the whole world going into iPod integration. Why not save up and buy some BL4000 or BL3 speakers that will last you a couple of decades and just buy a connector to hook it up to your iPod which you can put on your desk? Then you will have real B&O build and sound quality with your iPod or computer or Mp3 device or even CD player... It's products like the BS8 that ruin B&Os image not only because they outsource but mostly because those products are mass-market consumer products of the likes of Bose and other such companies not high end audio manufacturers!

Absolutely correct....totally agree with this.

Bentleyman:

Dkatz:

Why do people need one of these things? I don't like the whole world going into iPod integration. Why not save up and buy some BL4000 or BL3 speakers that will last you a couple of decades and just buy a connector to hook it up to your iPod which you can put on your desk? Then you will have real B&O build and sound quality with your iPod or computer or Mp3 device or even CD player... It's products like the BS8 that ruin B&Os image not only because they outsource but mostly because those products are mass-market consumer products of the likes of Bose and other such companies not high end audio manufacturers!

 

 

Absolutely correct....totally agree with this.

Great idea guys but it's also B&O's fault too.  Clearly, they realise the iPod, iPhone market but they need to market the fact that BL3's etc will sound amazing when connected to your iPhone etc.  alot of people probably do not realise this. In my mind, the BL3's are incredibly expensive and being honest ive never been keen on BL4000s (although the BL6000 is my all time favourite loudspeaker) so maybe the dealers need to show working examples of BL3's with iPhones & iPads attached to them.

Maybe the products are already there for the new generation and B&O just doesn't realise.  It would be nice also to see B&O campaigns in the affluent, young reads - GQ, Esquire, Men's Health etc. I've never seen an advert for the BS8 which is a little sad. 

iPhones and iPad 3's connected to BL3's would make a very nice bijou apartment feature!

Actually Moxxey, being a total male model fashion victim, I can confirm that Dolce & Gabbana do not make clothes in China. ALL of their clothes (except underwear) is made at the factory that they own in Italy. Paul Smith tried making his cheaper shirts in China but pulled the plug after 6 mths due to poor quality. (Yes they were a bit cheap feeling) - his cheaper range is now manufactured in Portugal with his slightly more expensive range coming from Italy.  I also noticed that my Louis Vuiiton iPhone case is made in France and my Dolce&Gabbana one is made in Italy.  This goes to prove that the top brands do still produce in Europe.   I would very much like to see Europe prosper and get out of this recession and I think the way in which we will do this is to produce more in Europe.

I have a real pride in Europe and i'd like to have the choice of being able to buy a product made in one of its countries.

Dkatz:

In regards to peoples posts on Racism. I have met more Chinese people who think they produce bad quality products compared to Europe than Europeans or Americans. I lived with many Chinese flatmates and most of them were proud of their Chinese heritage but they all still thought that European made products were much much better quality. There is in fact an image among Chinese that their own products are inferior. This is why most rich Chinese will buy Lattanzi italian handmade shoes for $5000-$10000, or real LV, Hermes, leather products made in France, and even B&O made in Denmark.

This is exactly right - and is precisely the point(s) I was trying to make on page 1 of this thread. Dkatz has given us all numerous really interesting and accurate lessons/comparisons on a very wide variety of real-life high end luxury products during this thread. All those posters who have tried to argue contrary to all these well cited examples need to read and understand what is being said here - because it's all true, all verifyable and all very accurate.

In case any members didnt really bother to read my earlier lengthy post(s) on page 1 of this thread, I gave a real life, bang upto date example of how both Rolls-Royce and Bentley Motors reported 31% and 37% increases in their respective order books announced just a matter of a couple of weeks ago. Both luxury car makers have commented that they put the majority of their increase in orders down to wealthy customers from 'emerging' economies in China and the Far-East.

Yet i'll wager you will not be hearing of R-R or Bentley outsourcing their production to China. The reason why China (and the Far Easts) wealthy citizens are ordering cars from RR/Bentley is due to the very fact that they are made, by hand, using traditional skills by highly paid craftsmen IN THIS COUNTRY. Those wealthy Chinese people are starting to be able to afford these high priced consumer products & they want the status, prestige, luxury, snobbery, exclusivity and quality of things made (in reletively small volumes) here in the west. Why? Because they are the best products that money can buy, and these newly wealthy can afford them (and desperately want to show the world that they own them).

B&O going down the outsourcing route in order to capture more of the 'middle-market' (in terms of product pricing etc.) i.e. B&O Play is a disappointing strategy for a luxury Danish electronics manufacturer with such an illustrious 85 year history.........However, it is not the ONLY strategy available to them I believe - its certainly NOT the strategy of many many other makers of high end goods such as RR/Bentley, Lattanzi, LV, Hermes and many many other brands that Dkatz has given good examples of during this thread. If outsourcing is the way everything is going these days and therefore inevitable for B&O's survival - could those members that hold that view explain to those of us who dont, why it is that a lot of the world's very top brands are actually not going down the outsource please...? 

Simple question : As Bang & Olufsen fans and consumers, ask yourself do you want the brand to move more 'middle-market' and put out an increasingly prominent range of products that retail under $1000, and will probably have life expectancies of more like 3 to 5 years OR do you want B&O to shift more the other way (back to where they used to be) producing extremely exclusive, high quality products with high price tags, but are built to last 20, 30, 40+ years.....?

Regards,

This discussion reminds me of the Porsche dilemma in the late 90's. Company was going down the tubes, only had one high end product, 911, which was uneconomic. So they introduced a much cheaper Boxter which part shared with a new model 911, then the Cayenne, Panemera - the latter which, to the purist, were mass market and diluted the true sports heritage of Porsche (well maybe not the boxter). The point being that it saved the company, had it not been for the broad reach diffusion products there would have been no company. I honestly feel that some here would prefer B&O closed up shop now. They have had some torrid years recently, so keep the business going they really have to sell products in volume to consumers now. It is not as though the BS8 or BeoLit 12 are cheap products, anything but in their market segment. The BV7 etc are many times more expensive than the typical consumer product -  to the average person they are really high end and very aspirational.

BTW there is no comparison between Rolls Royce, Louis Vuitton, Hermes etc and B&O. the former are much higher end than B&O. Many people can afford to own B&O, only the truly wealthy can really afford these other high end brands. B&O are more in the Aston Martin, Porsche category , they are not Bugatti, Rolls Royce or even Ferrari, Lamborghini. [Sorry for the car stuff, it is just something I know about]

Oasis:

Interesting thing behind all the talks about luxury and premium brands is for many of them, their largest market (and profit earning) comes from China! Look at the amount of flagship stores they are all fighting to open in China

Precisely my point Oasis..

The 'emerging markets' of China and other far eastern countries are quite naturally leading to an explosion of wealth in those countries, and the numbers of newly-wealthy people over there are growing at an extraordinary rate. What do these 'new' wealthy people want with there new found spending power? They want exclusive, luxury, top end products. Do they buy those products domestically from Chinese firms we have never heard of in the west? No, of course not, they want to acquire the worlds best products and an increasing numer of them are starting to be able to afford them these days. Hence the reason why all the world premium brands are opening flagship stores & car dealerships over there.

That, however, does not mean that those luxury brands opening stores there should start manufacturing their products there though.

Again, Bentley are made in Crewe and Rolls-Royce now build cars in Goodwood. If they suddenly decided to outsource & shifted production into China, computerized all processes (because the craftsmen could not be sourced there), and introduced a 'Rolls~Royce Play' range of vehicles retailing at only £15,000, do you think these wealthy chinese would still be buying them? Do you think RR/Bentley would maintain their prestige/image/desirability?

Or would those wealthy chinese turn their attention towards other luxury marques such Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti etc.   They want exlusivity and prestige and quality. They do not want something made in the next province that is "competitively priced".......

rmclachlan:

BTW there is no comparison between Rolls Royce, Louis Vuitton, Hermes etc and B&O. the former are much higher end than B&O. Many people can afford to own B&O, only the truly wealthy can really afford these other high end brands. B&O are more in the Aston Martin, Porsche category , they are not Bugatti, Rolls Royce or even Ferrari, Lamborghini. [Sorry for the car stuff, it is just something I know about]

@rmclachlan

I understand your point and I agree to an extent. However, in their respective markets they are comparable. Of course a car is going to be more costly than a TV or a Hi-Fi, that stands to reason. But in their respective marketplaces they are similar because they are aiming at the very top of those markets.

The debate here is about B&O shifting into a more 'middle market' position, trying to appeal to a wider customer base with less disposable income. 

They are turning to outsourcing as a way of doing that. I just wish they weren't thats all.

Excellent points made by Michael.

Rmclachlan - not too sure about the Louis Vuiiton thing - When i lived in Manchester, I knew many a lady in their early to mid 20s that would quite happily save up their commission and blow £1500 on a bag... and then do the same 2 months later!!!

When I was at university, I had a few rich Chinese friends and they all drove brand new BMW 5 series - it was unbelieveable 19 year olds!!! They didnt think made in China was up to much!

I must say, it made me really proud when Bang & Olufsen was Made in Denmark because it was different!  In my view, the only thing that I will remember Tue Montani for is taking the quality B&O name and outsourcing it to China in the name of profit.  Really, what a total, total insult to a heritage!

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech. Just my BS9000 is from Denmark...

raveny:

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech

Exactly - and it would appear that this has happened without any perceivable drop in quality - maybe others can reach the dizzy levels of Danish artisans after all!

Some other rumblings regarding recent posts -

I never considered B&O to be a Rolls Royce or even Aston Martin brand - more a Mercedes, who pitched their product at the professional, middle classes. I actually think it began to wobble when it started chasing Rolls Royce customers to the exclusion of others!

There are articles online where Italian clothing and leather brands claim their product isn't made in China even when confronted with evidence! It seems there is also a practise of producing goods to a 99% level of finshed and then fitting buckles, buttons etc. in Italy so that they can attach the "Made in Italy" label.

Of course there are other ways - there is a town in Italy (whose name escapes me) famous for its leather industry - it's said to have the highest Chinese population in the country, not all, it is claimed, are legal.

Chinese may buy Rolls Royces but they don't buy them because of the hand stitched Connolly hide interiors, the 5 layers of paint (not counting Laquer) or because it was assembled by a man using only tools from medieval times made from hardwood. They buy them because they are a loud, blatant and public statement of their wealth. They are very label concious with the proviso that you can actually see the label - there is an instance of an Italian clothing manufacturer failing miserably in China because the product didn't have a clear and recognisable logo - the quality of the goods was unquestioned.

Tod Daniel:

Excellent points made by Michael.

Many thanks Tod, Cheers

Tod Daniel:

Actually Moxxey, being a total male model fashion victim, I can confirm that Dolce & Gabbana do not make clothes in China. ALL of their clothes (except underwear) is made at the factory that they own in Italy. 

I'm talking generally - Armani knitwear certainly is and a lot of "retail" versions of these brands (not those from a D&G boutique). But my point was that more and more fashion brands are outsourcing their manufacturing, but NO-ONE complains. It's not as if people are walking back in these stores and are up in arms about the fact that these brands have started outsourcing manufacturing. I'm sure my friend - as a store owner - would be the first to panic if they were.

Yes, lots of suits are now made in Portugal, again to reduce manufacturing costs.

The argument in fashion is fairly irrelevant as the markup on clothing is huge. I know some of the prices my mens store owning friend buys at and it's incredible. They easily make 100% markups and more. This isn't the same as in the electronics business. I'd only guess at what an average B&O dealer takes from each sale, but it has to be between 15-25%.

The luxury clothing market is very different. You can easily buy a D&G cashmere jumper for £500, where the retailer has bought it for £250, maybe less. With these kinds of markups, it makes sense to get them produced in Italy, as the profit margin allows this.

Comparing the manufacturing cost of producing a BS8 in Denmark, I wouldn't like to think how much profit B&O can make after they manufacture in their factory.

And this is the fundamental problem. The amount of money B&O are making within this industry. Haven't we seen B&O in a mess over the last four years? If your argument is simply for them to "carry on as you are" then you have your head very much in the sand. And, the arguments on here very much give me the impression that people have their head buried in the sand.

Effectively you want B&O to carry on as they are, produce everything in Denmark, but somehow improve their profit margin so they can push on and make a profit in the future?

B&O have no choice but to reduce their costs and target a younger audience if they want to push on and be a strong brand in the next ten years.

raveny:

The question is which products are still made in Denmark? My BL 3, 5, 9, 10, BC5, BV4 are made in Czech. Just my BS9000 is from Denmark...

Yep, and my new BV10 had a Czech label reference on the box and so did parts for my BC6-23.

I do like the way the whole discussion here is about China, when most of B&O products are manufactured in the Czech Republic. But, that appears to be ok....

On the basis of 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating',the apparent success of the Beolit 12 suggests that B & Os decision to outsource it's manufacture has not deterred buyers.

To my mind,one has to consider the trends within a market into which one is introducing a new product.

One with rapid technological change,such as television,demands a different commercial approach to one that is slow moving,such as Hi-Fi.

To throw my hand in.....

Puncher:

I never considered B&O to be a Rolls Royce or even Aston Martin brand - more a Mercedes, who pitched their product at the professional, middle classes.

Actually, I think B&O are very much like Aston Martin. They have their Idiosyncrasies only found in that brand, a common reluctance to change direction and when they do, you can claim they are not meeting any particular market. i.e.

One-77 – not the fastest limited edition sports car in the world. Hardly affordable at GBP1.4M each (if you can find one), but then again it is honest in that it was not heavily subsidised like VW’s Veyron. This is pure mulit-millionaire territory that only a very few, very very privileged can afford. Hand-built like an Airfix/ Lego set, I am sure the Chinese could build this to the same exacting standards without having Midlands DNA as a pre-curser.

Cygnet – to me, the fundamental direction where B&O is going right now. i.e. It is an iPod dock with a leather dash and four wheels around it (and to be generous, probably the best bit of the car). Relatively affordable as an “Aston” (or especially if you buy the Toyota IQ version and the forth-coming Polish after-market body kit). Pure de-basing of the brand and akin to putting B&O down to Mercedes (Bose) level.

Further, like B&O, even their best “regular” products – the DBS and V12 Vantage (akin to say the BS9000 and BL5) are assembled in Gaydon but the components are shipped from around the world. Wheels from US aluminium billets, Same with Ford engines built in Cologne, leather from Sweden, Italian Graziano transmissions and headlights and carbon fibre from Canada. I even think they use the odd Danish music systems (hand built in China with Chinese components).

Puncher:

Chinese may buy Rolls Royce’s but they don't buy them because of the hand stitched Connolly hide interiors, the 5 layers of paint (not counting Laquer) or because it was assembled by a man using only tools from medieval times made from hardwood. They buy them because they are a loud, blatant and public statement of their wealth. They are very label conscious with the proviso that you can actually see the label - there is an instance of an Italian clothing manufacturer failing miserably in China because the product didn't have a clear and recognisable logo - the quality of the goods was unquestioned.

Very true, but then this is true of all cars we own. They are and always have been a statement of wealth. I think most Western people would prefer to walk, bicycle or take the bus than own a Lada or other soviet socialist automobilia should there be a minimal choice of expression.

Getting back on-topic, I must say I get amazed by the demands of people within this fora. Call it a difference of opinion but how do we reconcile our main wants and desires with reality:-

To be like/better than Apple

To be a cheaper product

To be made in Demark

To be cutting edge design

To last X years

To be trendy for the youth

To be simple for the less youthful/tech savvy

All I can see is a Company now making Cygnets (iPod docks) when it should be focusing on making solid, steady bread and butter DBS’s with a glorious V12 engine soundtrack (Beolab 3/5/9/xx’s) with if necessary, Chinese fingers or whomever can produce the pre-requisite quality of finish that the brand deserves.

My ten cents.

moxxey:

I'm talking generally - Armani knitwear certainly is and a lot of "retail" versions of these brands (not those from a D&G boutique). But my point was that more and more fashion brands are outsourcing their manufacturing, but NO-ONE complains. It's not as if people are walking back in these stores and are up in arms about the fact that these brands have started outsourcing manufacturing. I'm sure my friend - as a store owner - would be the first to panic if they were.

Yes, lots of suits are now made in Portugal, again to reduce manufacturing costs.

No-one complains ...  Exactly the point.

I don't know much about clothng labels, but it seems to me that in effect, when you buy such "labels" on the high street, you are essentially buying a sub-brand, and it will be made in the far east, not Italy or Saville Row.

The mid-range stuff is made in Portugal - aka Czech Republic.

I honestly do not see what all the bluster is about here - yes, ideally B&O, being Danish, would make everything by hand in Denmark...but that just isn't viable, it seems.

Maybe the future for B&O is :

Top End, R&D, Admin = Denmark.

Mid Range & Parts hub - Czech Republic.

BeoPlay - Outsourced.

Why exactly is this a problem?

I stand by my earlier example of the US guitar giants & sub brands -  It can work.

I too think there is a slightly unpleasant touch of zenophobia creeping into some posts - and regardless of all the politics and so on, if the only way to stay open is to run a sub brand that inputs enough into the group to cashflow the business and therefore  to survive....that is the only option - ask anyone who works for Kodak how grim it is when your business folds.