martin01:

Hi soundproof, What you are writing about PCM-downconversion regarding Panasonic BD50 will also be for Sony S-500 and Sony S-550. I have read those manuals my self. So we have to be satisfied with 48 khz. But BR-titles which are mastered in 96khz will in fact sound more dynamic than BR-titles mastered in 48 kzh, even if all output from the player is in 48 khz.

Why is this?

martin01:

Hi soundproof, What you are writing about PCM-downconversion regarding Panasonic BD50 will also be for Sony S-500 and Sony S-550. I have read those manuals my self. So we have to be satisfied with 48 khz. But BR-titles which are mastered in 96khz will in fact sound more dynamic than BR-titles mastered in 48 kzh, even if all output from the player is in 48 khz.

But isn't this only with "... receivers that do not provide the proper HDPC handshake..."?  In other words, any receiver with properly-implemented handshaking wouldn't have this issue?

-- Paul 

martin01:

Hi soundproof, What you are writing about PCM-downconversion regarding Panasonic BD50 will also be for Sony S-500 and Sony S-550. I have read those manuals my self. So we have to be satisfied with 48 khz. But BR-titles which are mastered in 96khz will in fact sound more dynamic than BR-titles mastered in 48 kzh, even if all output from the player is in 48 khz.

 

So the S-550 will only output 48kHz regardless of what is on the disc, if I am understanding you correctly?  Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Shortly after this thread started, I sent an email through the official B&O web site's customer service page. 

 

The response states, "I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192." 

 

In short, it looks like the BS3 can do "hd audio" through PCM just fine.  Does this finish the discussion, or is there more??  Or does this end the debate??

 

I'll post B&O's full email response here, but first want to hear from the moderators whether that is an acceptable thing to do.

 

-- Paul 

Wonderful news. Thank you for sending the email and letting us know.

beopaul:

Shortly after this thread started, I sent an email through the official B&O web site's customer service page. 

 

The response states, "I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192." 

 

In short, it looks like the BS3 can do "hd audio" through PCM just fine.  Does this finish the discussion, or is there more??  Or does this end the debate??

 

I'll post B&O's full email response here, but first want to hear from the moderators whether that is an acceptable thing to do.

 

-- Paul 

This does certainly seem like a conclusive debate ending answer, and good news for all BS3/BV7MK111/BV9 owners.

here is an interesting link which covers many of the points we have discussed here

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/807hdmi13/

You're being too kind, 355f!

The best test is to actually compare true HD-Audio vs. the downconverted version, that takes care of any questions. How long before you get your BeoSystem 3 repaired?

So BS3 outputs dolby true HD and DTS HD master audio not downconverted-

I have no idea, 355f. There are lots of different statements, from official sources, apparently! If I was B&O, I would definitely put the claim that it can in the spec's - if it can. As your link shows, HDMI 1.3 is required.

Hi 355f,

Interesting article from Ultimate AVmagasine.

They say the following in the article: Until it's proven otherwise, we'll come down on the side that argues that the all-digital process of converting TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to multichannel PCM digital involves no sonic compromises.

This is what I have been said through different posts at this thread!!! Thats nice that we now can relate to HiFi-articles regarding this subject.

/Martin

One more thing: this articles states that it is only important to have HDMI 1.3 at both ends when you use bistream. When you use Multichannel PCM (sound decoded in the player), then you just need HDMI 1.1 or higher. Alright, the article does not say the latter, but you can find this information in many other articles at this subject.

martin01:

Hi 355f,

Interesting article from Ultimate AVmagasine.

They say the following in the article: Until it's proven otherwise, we'll come down on the side that argues that the all-digital process of converting TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to multichannel PCM digital involves no sonic compromises.

This is what I have been said through different posts at this thread!!! Thats nice that we now can relate to HiFi-articles regarding this subject.

/Martin

As usual you have taken 1 piece of the jigsaw and ignored everything else.

anyway, im still wating for the copy e mail you had from B&O in denmark- but despite asking for it 7 times, I neevr got it!

Interesting article even though it is one year old and was written at a time, according to it, that there was no Blu-Ray Player that would decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD, as we have now.  Also, even a year ago, it was stating that most receivers of the time could receive PCM signals. It supports exactly what many, including myself obviously, have been saying. If the player does the decoding, any HDMI is sufficient. If the receiver does the decoding, HDMI 1.3 is required.

OK - the email says the BS3 can accept 192KHz PCM data, it still doesn't actually say was it does with it once it's got it.

To reiterate what I posted earlier -

Now back to the (slightly modified) original questions -

Can the BS3 output non-compressed, full bandwidth audio data, received from a suitable player such as the PS3, on all surround channels.

If so, which word lengths and sample rates can it handle unmodified. Beyond these limits does the BS3 transcode the data to a "lossy" format.

We now appear to know what it can take as input data, we don't know if it merely channels this data unmodified to the output D/A converters or does it downsample or transcode the data into some other format.

Hi guys, here is the answer from B&O about Beovision 7-40 Mark III and if it handle Multichannel PCM at 96khz/24bit at all channels. Read from the below and up:

Thank you for your request. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

Subject
PCM lyd Beovision 7-40 markIII (Beosystem 3)
Discussion Thread
Response (Mette Krabbe Helmholt)	14/08/2008 03.21 PM
Hi again, Yes it will. Kind regards Bang & Olufsen a/s Mette Krabbe Helmholt BeoCare This email and any attachments contain confidential and/or privileged information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. Please notify the sender and delete this message if you are not the intended recipient or if you have received this email by an error. Any copying, disclosure or distribution of this message or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
Customer (Martin Ström)	14/08/2008 03.10 PM
Hi, Thank you for your reply. Will it also support 96khz/24bit at all channels? Regards Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FRÅN: BeoCare [mailto:bogo@mailuk.custhelp.com] SKICKAT: den 14 augusti 2008 15:02 TILL: Ström, Martin ÄMNE: PCM lyd Beovision 7-40 markIII (Beosystem 3) [Incident: 080813-000136]
Response (Mette Krabbe Helmholt)	14/08/2008 03.01 PM
Dear Mr Ström, The BeoVision 7-40 MKIII will support the uncompressed PCM signal on all channels. Kind regards Bang & Olufsen a/s Mette Krabbe Helmholt BeoCare This email and any attachments contain confidential and/or privileged information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. Please notify the sender and delete this message if you are not the intended recipient or if you have received this email by an error. Any copying, disclosure or distribution of this message or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
Customer (Martin Ström)	13/08/2008 03.55 PM
I have to know another technical answer from you about Multichannel PCM. Does Beovision 7-40 MarkIII (or BS3) handle multichannel pcm at 96khz/24bit at all channels, when it receive this signal through HDMI-cable from a Bluray-player? I can refrase the question: If I have a Blurayplayer that will decode the new HD-coedes (DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD) and this decoded sound is sendt as Multichannel pcm to the BV7-40, will the TV handle this PCM-signal uncompressed at all channels? I hope you understand my question. If the answer to my question is YES, then BV7-40 will output the new HD-audio (already decoded sound) to the speakers. This would be very nice. I hope to get an answer from some of your technical staff who know this subject. Regards Martin Ström Sweden

Haven't we already established many days ago that it will support uncompressed PCM?

Moxxey: if you read all the answers from B&O, it will also say that BS3 handle Multichannel PCM at all channels and it also handle 96khz/24 bit. So no downconversion at any way. So maybe we should be happy now and enjoy our BS3/Bv7 with both sound and picture-quality.

I'd really recommend reading the link 355f suggested above.

The conclusion about this sometimes confusing situation is that these first HDMI 1.3 players cannot pass either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio to an HDMI 1.3 receiver over HDMI in full resolution bitstream form—even though this is a stated specification for HDMI 1.3. This appears to be a limitation inherent in the first HDMI transmitter 1.3 chips [a limitation that appears, in initial testing, to apply to Sony's PlayStation3 with regard to Dolby TrueHD, as well –Ed.]. 

The only way I could get audio over HDMI from the Samsung with these DTS-HD Master Audio encoded Blu-ray Discs from Fox (which carry only DTS-HD Master Audio English soundtracks) was to switch the player's audio setup to "PCM." In that setting, the player converts the DTS 1.5Mbps core track (not the full high resolution DTS-HD Master Audio data) to PCM multichannel before routing it to the receiver. In that event the front panel of the Onkyo indicates "Multi Ch."

If I started the DTS-HD Master Audio disc on the Samsung from the beginning, then changed it to PCM to get audio once the movie started to play, and then changed it back again to Bitstream, the audio would remain on, even with Bitstream mode selected. But the receiver's front panel now read ES Discrete. This indicated that the player was feeding the receiver a bitstream of the core DTS track, but not a bitstream of full DTS-HD Master Audio stream. If the latter had been true, the receiver should have indicated HD MSTR.

When I played a Blu-ray TrueHD soundtrack with the Samsung set to Bitstream, the Onkyo receiver indicates Dolby Digital. This means that while it the Onkyo is receiving bitstream data, that data are from the core Dolby Digital 640kbps track only, not full resolution TrueHD. If the latter were true, the receiver would have indicated TrueHD on the front panel display. 

The Samsung does not, in any case, decode Dolby TrueHD internally or transcode it to PCM. So setting its output to PCM offers no benefits for this format. The only way that this player could provide a full resolution TrueHD track to the receiver would be by passing along the native TrueHD bitstream through its HDMI 1.3 output. And it will not do this.

It appears we're "hearing" saints and angels all around!  Given the realities of that, I do believe people have something to look (hear?) forward to when they get True-HD or HD-Master Audio in their listening rooms.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/807hdmi13/

martin01:

Moxxey: if you read all the answers from B&O, it will also say that BS3 handle Multichannel PCM at all channels and it also handle 96khz/24 bit. So no downconversion at any way. So maybe we should be happy now and enjoy our BS3/Bv7 with both sound and picture-quality.

Martin, I already have an answer from B&O and it's from a source much higher up than Customer Services. They said that the BS3 doesn't support BS3 in it's entirety. Whether this means that there is some down conversion, is another matter.

Is this the same enjoyment that give us limited support for 24fps and a no-warning auto crash-off with sw 4.24? Again, I believe you just want the BS3 to support every possible AV codec and are going with the argument, using every possible web reference as proof.

We're rambling, moxxey!

I'm sure you mean: ... the BS3 doesn't support HD-Audio in its entirety.

I'd love to cut BeoSystem 3 some slack here, but I really do believe it doesn't do a transparent job of HD-Audio, as you have been told, again.
That said, I was just at the local hifi-emporium - where there were shelves and shelves and shelves of DVDs, and just a little corner with BD. Begging the question: does it really matter? Clearly, the manufacturers are falling out of love with the format.

Moxxey You said: Is this the same enjoyment that give us limited support for 24fps and a no-warning auto crash-off with sw 4.24?

Well moxxey, I have never experienced any "auto-crash-off" with my Bv7. And I use a HD-settopbox with HDMI. When you say "limited support for 24fprs", what do you mean by that? We have support for 24fprs with sw 4.24 and the picture dont jerk anymore with 24fprs BR-titles. Of course the 24fprs support could be better but for now I think it good enough.

amazing....B and O has now confirmed in writing to two different forum members who have posted the responses from B and O here and still people refuse to accept it.

We should all lighten up a bit! after all its not life or death is it!

I think Moxxey was trying to be a bit light hearted and make an off the cuff comment which actually is perfecty true! -in respect of some users of the product- and you have to agree to spend £10K on a tv to find it keeps switching itself off is not what is acceptable.

Maybe what is comming out of this thread is that B&O need to be more customer orientated than they have been in the past and look after the customers that they have, because new ones are more demanding on both specs and service for the price that is being asked.

Razlaw:

amazing....B and O has now confirmed in writing to two different forum members who have posted the responses from B and O here and still people refuse to accept it.

Well thats not true.

Its an easy question that any brand can answer.

Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion. I have not had an answer- see my previous link!