355f:

Razlaw:

amazing....B and O has now confirmed in writing to two different forum members who have posted the responses from B and O here and still people refuse to accept it.

Well thats not true.

Its an easy question that any brand can answer.

Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion. I have not had an answer- see my previous link!

 

 

Why don't you email that exact question to Beocare if you do not like the form of the question as posed by Beopaul and Martin and as answered by B and O?

Razlaw:

355f:

Razlaw:

amazing....B and O has now confirmed in writing to two different forum members who have posted the responses from B and O here and still people refuse to accept it.

Well thats not true.

Its an easy question that any brand can answer.

Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion. I have not had an answer- see my previous link!

 

 

Why don't you email that exact question to Beocare if you do not like the form of the question as posed by Beopaul and Martin and as answered by B and O?

I had already done that some time ago and the answer was no, having consulted technical- which is how this thread started.

The issue however is a bit more complicated as B&O are 'protective' of the product specifications and the support staff dont seem well informed. I therefore want to avoid the mistake of contacting customer services who might be tempted to give me an unchecked reply as would most dealers faced with a £20K sale!

 

I have however taken action today to get the matter clarified from an individual within B&O that will give  a definitive answer and post the reply on here.

Let's hope the answer you get and post is both definitive as well as a clear explanation of the answer, whatever it may be.

beopaul:

Shortly after this thread started, I sent an email through the official B&O web site's customer service page. 

 

The response states, "I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192." 

 

In short, it looks like the BS3 can do "hd audio" through PCM just fine.  Does this finish the discussion, or is there more??  Or does this end the debate??

 

I'll post B&O's full email response here, but first want to hear from the moderators whether that is an acceptable thing to do.

 

-- Paul 

Unfortunately the answer you received, plus the answer to an another email posted after yours has not ended the debate for some who still doubt the capabilities. I agree with you completely.What was the exact question you posed that yieled the response you posted? 

Thanks!

Razlaw:

beopaul:

Shortly after this thread started, I sent an email through the official B&O web site's customer service page. 

 

The response states, "I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192." 

 

In short, it looks like the BS3 can do "hd audio" through PCM just fine.  Does this finish the discussion, or is there more??  Or does this end the debate??

 

I'll post B&O's full email response here, but first want to hear from the moderators whether that is an acceptable thing to do.

 

-- Paul 

Unfortunately the answer you received, plus the answer to an another email posted after yours has not ended the debate for some who still doubt the capabilities. I agree with you completely.What was the exact question you posed that yieled the response you posted? 

Thanks!

I think, if you read the thread following this post, the full question/answer is there.

If you read my following post you will find still unanswered questions, even given the answer from the help line.

No one is out to score points here, everyone is keen to find out the real capabilities of the BS3.

Lets all hope we can get a definitive answer from a definitive source. At the end of the day it's immaterial to me - I don't have a BV7, BV9 or BS3 but I do think those of us who have should expect to know the capabilities, or not, of the equipment they have purchased (at huge expense).

A simple and honest request I think!

Below is the full exchange:

 

 

 

From: bogo@mailuk.custhelp.com

Subject: BeoSystem 3 specifications [Incident: 080809-000020]

Date: August 13, 2008 3:21:56 AM CDT

Thank you for your request. Below is a summary of your request and our
response.

Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
BeoSystem 3 specifications


Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Christian Nielsen) - 08/13/2008 01:21 PM
Dear Mr. Gilsdorf

We are pleased to learn about your interest in BeoSystem 3. I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192.

Kind regards
Bang & Olufsen a/s

Christian Nielsen
BeoCare


This email and any attachments contain confidential and/or privileged information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. Please notify the sender and delete this message if you are not the intended recipient or if you have received this email by an error. Any copying, disclosure or distribution of this message or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

Customer (Paul Gilsdorf) - 08/09/2008 07:12 PM
Can the BeoSystem 3 retrieve and process hi-res multichannel PCM audio over HDMI?
If so, what's the max resolution?  96kHz/24-bit,  48kHz/24-bit,  192kHz/24-bit, or something else?

-- Paul



[---001:001831:39235---]

 ================================

 

Razlaw:

beopaul:

Shortly after this thread started, I sent an email through the official B&O web site's customer service page. 

 

The response states, "I can inform you that BeoSystem 3 is capable of retrieving and processing high resolution mulitichannel PCM audio through HDMI. The maximum is 192." 

 

In short, it looks like the BS3 can do "hd audio" through PCM just fine.  Does this finish the discussion, or is there more??  Or does this end the debate??

 

I'll post B&O's full email response here, but first want to hear from the moderators whether that is an acceptable thing to do.

 

-- Paul 

Unfortunately the answer you received, plus the answer to an another email posted after yours has not ended the debate for some who still doubt the capabilities. I agree with you completely.What was the exact question you posed that yieled the response you posted? 

Thanks!

Thanks!  That question and the answer would appear to resolve the issue.

355f:

...

Its an easy question that any brand can answer.

Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion. I have not had an answer- see my previous link!

355f, I think we should stop talking about DTS MA  and TRUE HD.  They're only relevant to a receiver when the player is sending bitstream, which we know the BS3 can't handle with HDMI 1.1.  We're talking about PCM.  PCM coming out of a player has no trace of any codec left at that point.  It's simply a set of digitized waveforms with the following characteristics:

1) number of channels (2, 6, 8)

2) sampling frequency (48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz), and

3) bits per sample (16, 20, 24).

My response from B&O said the BS3 could retrieve and process multi-channel 192kHz/24bit.  So what further questions to ask?  

a) Is it ever downsampled or downconverted before conversion to analog?  If so, to what frequency/bit depth?

b) Is it transcoded to another format? (This would make absolutely no sense to me, and I don't think is worth even asking. You'd have to put it back to PCM again for the D/A converters).

c) ??? (please offer your suggestions here...)

Also 355f, I just read your link to the ultimateavmag article.  It basically says some older players are crappy.  I'm personally waiting until they get better and can do a proper decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to PCM, among other things, before I buy a Blu-ray player. 

And please point out exactly if/where I'm wrong with any of my above statements.

-- Paul 

beopaul:

355f, I think we should stop talking about DTS MA  and TRUE HD.  They're only relevant..

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if a Blu-ray only supports DTS-HD and Dolby Digital (think Rambo), then what on earth is the output? There's no uncompressed PCM on this Blu-ray (as isn't on many..). As we know DTS-HD requires HDMI 1.3, then surely we receive a version of Dolby Digital?

This isn't explained. Yes, we know it can handle uncompressed multi-channel PCM, but what happens if this isn't supported by the Blu-ray?

beopaul:

355f:

...

Its an easy question that any brand can answer.

Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion. I have not had an answer- see my previous link!

355f, I think we should stop talking about DTS MA  and TRUE HD.  They're only relevant to a receiver when the player is sending bitstream, which we know the BS3 can't handle with HDMI 1.1.  We're talking about PCM.  PCM coming out of a player has no trace of any codec left at that point.  It's simply a set of digitized waveforms with the following characteristics:

1) number of channels (2, 6, 8)

2) sampling frequency (48kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz), and

3) bits per sample (16, 20, 24).

My response from B&O said the BS3 could retrieve and process multi-channel 192kHz/24bit.  So what further questions to ask?  

a) Is it ever downsampled or downconverted before conversion to analog?  If so, to what frequency/bit depth?

b) Is it transcoded to another format? (This would make absolutely no sense to me, and I don't think is worth even asking. You'd have to put it back to PCM again for the D/A converters).

c) ??? (please offer your suggestions here...)

Also 355f, I just read your link to the ultimateavmag article.  It basically says some older players are crappy.  I'm personally waiting until they get better and can do a proper decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to PCM, among other things, before I buy a Blu-ray player. 

And please point out exactly if/where I'm wrong with any of my above statements.

-- Paul 

Paul,

Im not trying to prove anyone wrong! this is a fun debate- or it should be- about the BS3 and if the rumours of a BR in BV7 are true this debate is even more relevent.

 

When i made the original post it was with regard to previous postings I had made that moxxey had picked up on. My regard was always that the BS3 will not output true HD and DTS MA. and it should have been upgraded sometime ago to HDMI1.3- for £5500 it should- it really should! Then all the posts started that you dont need 1.3 when 1.1 will do everything anyway!- it says on the internet!- and that might well be true but its very manufacturer dependant- most brands i work with are not providing the hdmi support because- but im only dealing with cheap brands- not leading edge B&O

Im not interested if its downsampled or down converted, what the sampling frequency is or a possible transcode- this stuff is for the technical engineers and none of us here ( i dont think) are able to fully understand whats taking place- studying the internet does not an expert make!- and get 3 of those in a room they will never agree on anything!- keep the questions basic, thats what ive done and i want  a basic answer. Yes it will or no it wont. The answer was no it wont.

Since then we have had a bit of  a play on words and my original question has been forwarded to someone in B&O who should know; namely does the BS3 output true HD and DTS MA without down conversion! Its a simple question- and for fun I rang pioneer and sony today and had a response to that in about 2 seconds- yes they do!-  its in our spec sheet which which was on their websites-whats the problem with B&O then! Its interesting that on another av site there was s imilar post about a pioneer product- it had one reply- yes it will do that- but on here we have 210 posts and rising!

The article says that some older players are poor but i can tell you many of the new ones are as well- i know- we make them! in fact many players in the shops now maintaining to be profile 2 compliant are no such thing- but it helps sell them.

It is price that is killing the business, problem is there is no difference in picture quality from a PS3 that costs £280 and a player thats 6 times that. In all fairness if you want a player that hits the mark, the new pioneer out in a few weeks is superb.

This is why- given the situation in general I was surprised to hear that BV7 would get inbuilt blueray by september- and given the poor sd performance of most br players- its going to be interesting. But then rather than look at the facts I had rather scathing responses to that mail as well. Im perhaps thinking my comments are best left unsaid and let everyone be happy with their B&O- after all these debates make no difference to the outcome anyway!

The point about all this is that B&O need to market the products better- improve the specs on an ongoing basis not just keep increasoing the prices with technology that was so so some time ago.

Hello

I have a question I am sure some of you can answer me:

I use a DVICO Tvix 4100-SH as mediacenter connected to my BV7-40 Mk3 via HDMI. I have the album Love Over Gold in DTS Audio in the hard disk.

The format of the songs is .wav PCM 1.41 Mbps, 44.1 kHz. When I listen this album, the audio menu of the BV says Input Format DTS 5.1 and Output Format DTS Speakers 5. This is normal, I think.

My question is: If I place the Tvix volume at 24 or less, I hear only noise. The same if I place the volume at 26 or more. I can only hear this album when I place the Tvix volume at 25 (great quality, btw).

Why this happens? It's just curiosity, but I would like to know why.

Thanks

Moxxey: You still dont understand the "thing" with PCM and multichannel pcm, even after 216 posts. I am impressed!.

 Alright, Multichannel PCM is NOT a track on BR-title. It is a digital data-stream from the BR-player to the receiver (BS3). This Multichannel PCM-datastream is already decoded in the player. So you compare apples with bananas when you say that: "what happens if uncompressed pcm is not on the BR-title?"

My answer to your question is:  when a BR-title dont have Uncompressed pcm, then the BR-player will do the decoding (of DolbyTRue HD or DTS-HD) and in turn send this decoded datastream as Multichannel PCM to BS3. Bs3 will then make the D/A conversion so we get sound in the speakers. I think that it is her (D/A conversion) where some people have questions about how god this is in BS3.

Beopaul and Martin, excellent and correct posts. The answer from B and O in Beopaul's posts seems to make it clear that full resolution up to 192kHz will be output by the BS3. I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 192kHz Blu-Ray disc referenced earlier in this thread that I ordered.

martin01:

Moxxey: You still dont understand the "thing" with PCM and multichannel pcm, even after 216 posts. I am impressed!.

 Alright, Multichannel PCM is NOT a track on BR-title. It is a digital data-stream from the BR-player to the receiver (BS3). This Multichannel PCM-datastream is already decoded in the player. So you compare apples with bananas when you say that: "what happens if uncompressed pcm is not on the BR-title?"

My answer to your question is:  when a BR-title dont have Uncompressed pcm, then the BR-player will do the decoding (of DolbyTRue HD or DTS-HD) and in turn send this decoded datastream as Multichannel PCM to BS3. Bs3 will then make the D/A conversion so we get sound in the speakers. I think that it is her (D/A conversion) where some people have questions about how god this is in BS3.

 YES! exactly.  With a good player, ANY codec will be converted to PCM before being sent out to the receiver.  I'm concerned that the wording used by 355f ("Does the BS3 output DTS MA and TRUE HD and the new audio codecs without downconversion") could be misunderstood by B&O, since they don't directly support these codecs.

A better wording might be "If sent the PCM signal of a decoded DTS MA or TRUE HD audio track, does the BS3 output the full quality of that signal without downconversion?".  I think that would be the ultimate question.

-- Paul 

I've made an inquiry at B&O, and believe it will help us settle this long thread! It comes from the Digital Signal Processing engineer, and must count as the final word, I trust.

This means that if your player properly outputs this level of resolution, then BeoSystem 3 will resolve it. The BeoSystem 3 is capable of audio processing up to 32bit, and should therefore have enough headroom for 24bit in multi-channel.

I'm adding: there could be handshake issues (HDCP) in some instances, that will result in downconversion, but I'd ask the dealers to recommend compliant sources.

===

Translation: BeoSystem 3 supports up to 7.1 Uncompressed PCM in 96kHz. It does not support 192kHz.

Reply:

Beosystem 3 supporterer op til 7.1 Uncompressed PCM i 96kHz. Den supporterer ikke 192 kHz.

Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards
Lars Lyngby Laursen

DSP Engineer
Audio & DSP Competence Centre
Bang & Olufsen A/S
 

soundproof:

I've made an inquiry at B&O, and believe it will help us settle this long thread! It comes from the Digital Signal Processing engineer, and must count as the final word, I trust.

This means that if your player properly outputs this level of resolution, then BeoSystem 3 will resolve it. The BeoSystem 3 is capable of audio processing up to 32bit, and should therefore have enough headroom for 24bit in multi-channel.

I'm adding: there could be handshake issues (HDCP) in some instances, that will result in downconversion, but I'd ask the dealers to recommend compliant sources.

===

Translation: BeoSystem 3 supports up to 7.1 Uncompressed PCM in 96kHz. It does not support 192kHz.

Reply:

Beosystem 3 supporterer op til 7.1 Uncompressed PCM i 96kHz. Den supporterer ikke 192 kHz.

Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards
Lars Lyngby Laursen

DSP Engineer
Audio & DSP Competence Centre
Bang & Olufsen A/S
 

It is capable , which is reassuring

'There could be handshake issues (HDCP) which may result in down conversion'- if the BS3 was 1.3 compliant there would not be handshake issues with a so equipped player.

So what of the PS3 that everyone ( or most) are using. And what are the compliant players! that B&O confirms will result in said results.

So the answer is, yes it does support it but depends which player you use as to the issue of downconversion- BUT there is no list of players that are a match for the BS3??

 

Sorry If I appear to be labouring a point here by being overly pedantic about semantics but -

We now know the BS3 supports eight channels of uncompressed 24 bit audio at 96KHz. That still leaves a slight grey area in that what the DSP can accept isn't necessarily the same as what eventually makes it to each output channel's D/A converter.

Can we to infer from the DSP Engineer's reply that each output channel's D/A converter is also capable of 24bit 96KHz and the only processing done by the BS3 is to "steer" the PCM data to the relevant D/A channels or is there still an element of doubt?

 

355f:

'There could be handshake issues (HDCP) which may result in down conversion'- if the BS3 was 1.3 compliant there would not be handshake issues with a so equipped player.

In theory, any version of HDMI should have no HDCP issues.  In practice, I don't think 1.3 would guarantee issue-free HDCP, but it might help. A list of "certified" players would be nice, but I'm waiting for the end of the year for the manufacturers to get their act together with fast-booting fully codec-supporting products."

-- Paul
 

Thank you Raslaw and Beopaul for your qualified support at this thread. I just have to say that it really is a very complex subject. But to summarize all of this: It is nice to see that our BS3 or BV7-40 MarkIII will handle the new codecs in the way that is described by you guys (and my self). But it is not so many BR-players that will support ALL the new HD-codecs. I have recently bought a Panasonic BD50, and I am very pleased with this mashine. Other people at other AV-forums are also very pleased with this BR-player. Another player that will be released in this autumn is Sony BDP-S550 which also will decode internally ALL the new codecs (DolbyTrue HD, DTS HD and Masteraudio). So for now, I think this is the two BR-players that will suit the BS3 or BV7 at the best way.

Have a nice weekend!

Regards
Martin

Im delighted to .

However, im not getting it from the PS3. Today I borrowed a new BS3 from my dealer ( in case hardware revisions had taken place over the past 12 months) and I dont get HDMA or anything else.

Whilst you mention the panasonic BD50, I know that player very well. The issue is though- Just because that player is profile 2 and HDMI 1.3 -because the BS3 is not 1.3 compliant then you have no guarantee that you get HDMA output anyway.

I dont wish to sound 'picky; here but B&O must have tested the BS3 with a 1.3 compliant player that will decode in order to come to the conclusion that it will support hidef audio. output.

I would like a list of players that will not have 'potential HDCP' handshake issues' and therefore downconvert.- Just because one buys the latest player is no more guarantee of obtaining HD audio than an older one- in fact less likely.

ps, borrowed a new PS3 today- same issue!

 

Yes, there's the issue of not processing 192kHz, and there's an open question whether the proper resolution reaches the BS3 processors, as that depends upon the handshake.

As 355f has written earlier, the entire point with HDMI is to ensure that playback is authorised. It's only when it is that you get the full resolution stream, no matter what the unit is otherwise capable of. If it didn't limit output in the absence of a handshake, then the player would be infringing upon its license and the manufacturer of the player would be in trouble.

What happens is similar to what happened with DVD-players if you tried to run their output to a VHS, in order to copy the content -- you got an unstable, often greenish image, because the handshake didn't happen.

 

Can someone answer my question in regards to how do we received uncompressed PCM if a Blu-ray such as Rambo only supports DTS-HD or Dolby Digital? Surely if the Blu-ray doesn't ship with an uncompressed PCM track, we won't receive HD audio?

moxxey:

Can someone answer my question in regards to how do we received uncompressed PCM if a Blu-ray such as Rambo only supports DTS-HD or Dolby Digital? Surely if the Blu-ray doesn't ship with an uncompressed PCM track, we won't receive HD audio?

You need a Blu-Ray player that does the decoding. The player will decode the DTS-HD  and send it as uncompressed PCM.  All three formats are lossless. The HD formats are merely ways of storing the lossles format in less space on the disc. 

Razlaw:

moxxey:

Can someone answer my question in regards to how do we received uncompressed PCM if a Blu-ray such as Rambo only supports DTS-HD or Dolby Digital? Surely if the Blu-ray doesn't ship with an uncompressed PCM track, we won't receive HD audio?

You need a Blu-Ray player that does the decoding. The player will decode the DTS-HD  and send it as uncompressed PCM.  All three formats are lossless. The HD formats are merely ways of storing the lossles format in less space on the disc. 

You need a player that does the decoding? I don't think the players are that intelligent. If you select DTS-HD it is going to output as DTS-HD (I'm talking PS3 here). I think we're at crosswires. Yes, we've proved the BS3 supports high-end uncompressed PCM, but no-one has convinced me that the player understands how to negotiate with a 1.1 HDMI A/V unit (BS3) and somehow realise it has to send uncompressed PCM, instead.

Hence why B&O originally said that True HD isn't supported. Yes, uncompressd PCM might be supported, but it sounds like both the Blu-ray and player need to support PCM.

First: see the HDMI spec's (www.hdmi.org). If one decode HD-audio signals in the BluRay player and pass them as LPCM through HDMI, the HDMI version doen NOT play any role

Second: HDMI is an one solution cable. One doesn't need other cables. Espessial the use of SPDIF is needless

Third: If the video resolution send over the HDMI is lower than 720p, the sound will only be 2 channel PCM or DD or DTS. So to get mutichannel high resolution sound switch to an appropiate video resolution (also needed if you use the decoder of the player and send DD and DTS over as multichannel PCM)!

Fourth: BS3 can handle Multichannel PCM. Don't beleave the B&o spokesman!

Fifth: Let the Blu Ray player decode DTS HD MA or DD TrueHD  en send it through HDMI to the receiver as LPCM. The receiver doesn't have to have the capabilities for these audio formats itself. The connection is HDMI version independent. (PS3 and Panasonic BD50 are to player capable of doing so). Be sure about the video resolution!

Sixth: because the independancy of the hi-rez audio formats by using LPCM, because the independancy of HDMI version, because of the capability of multichannel PCM the BS3 CAN reproduce DD TrueHD and DTS HD MA and DVD Audio and SACD (aslong these hi-rez audio signals are presented to the BS3 as LPCM).