martin01:

B&O have confirmed to me by e-mail that BS3 support up to 96khz-24bit at all channels. (I dont think of how it would be if it supported just 2 channel at 96khz and the rest of the channels at 48 khz). That would be very odd. Even if BS3 just support 48 khz you will get HD-sound, because almost all BR-titles are recorded in 48 khz and not 96 khz. Some titles are recorded in 96 khz (Celine Dion live in Las Vegas), but 48 vs 96 khz will not be of crucial importance if we ar getting HD-sound through BS3 or not.

Sorry but I think these statements are just plain wrong - The two lossless HD audio formats (DTS -HD MA and Dolby TrueHD) both call for 24 bit word lengths at a minimum sample rate of 96KHz.

If it is 48KHz then it isn't lossless HD audio.

martin01:

B&O have confirmed to me by e-mail that BS3 support up to 96khz-24bit at all channels. (I dont think of how it would be if it supported just 2 channel at 96khz and the rest of the channels at 48 khz). That would be very odd. Even if BS3 just support 48 khz you will get HD-sound, because almost all BR-titles are recorded in 48 khz and not 96 khz. Some titles are recorded in 96 khz (Celine Dion live in Las Vegas), but 48 vs 96 khz will not be of crucial importance if we ar getting HD-sound through BS3 or not.

I am delighted to hear this news that the BS3 supports all new audio formats.

Please be good enough to forward the mail  onto this site you have received directly from B&O headquarters and I will then take it up with  the Chairman of B&O myself., I want to know why ive been give false information from B&O in respect of this matter.  In addition I can book my BS3 in for repair as it clearly faulty. As is the same item my associate purchased some two months ago.

So I await this information with interest.

peterjacobs:

Yippeee !. Thanks Martin. Looks like my schizophrenia takes over again. So my new BS3 is not rubbish after all and will support some sort of HD full or not !.

 So should it now be the PS 3 with its new firmware update that outputs and decodes full hd MA or do I go for the Panasonic BD 50 which also does the decoding albeit its more expenses than the PS3 ? That is the quesion ?

No one ever said the BS3 is rubbish.

Makes no difference what BR player you go for. With panasonic you are paying for analogue outs. Analogue outs are only any use if you have anaolgue in- the BS3 does not have that.

Please also be aware that the BD50 is far slower in operation than the PS3 and the standard dvd performance is lacking compared to PS3, however the BD50 with a hacking remote can be made region free- for standard dvd only- so that may be of interest. Or you can pay extra and get muti region BR as well blu-ray region A, B and C,  also be aware that internet updates dont seem to be working to well for BD50   owners so its done by burnt disc at the moment

Razlaw:

Thank you Martin for the comments. Very well spoken by someone who is obviously very well read and understands the topic.  Also, thanking you for pointing out that I am not the only person who takes the view I do. Again, obviously you have read all of the posts in the forum, and read up on the subject, unlike certain people.

'Well read and understands and has read up on the subject'- there are  a few posters here that dont need to, as their depth of knowledge doesnt require the hasty picking up of a few internet atricles and declared - well read and understanding!!!!- juts because they agree with you! - and by definition some kind of authority on HDMI- what shows a true lack of understanding is when posts are made which are just plain wrong- even after reading the articles!

Please 355f: I have not just read "a few internet articles". I have "spoken" to alot of people who really know this things at different international A/V-forums. I have read about 40-50 articles written by proffesionals. Please take that into notice. At those proffesional A/V-forums I have visited,the proffesional people there totally agree how all this works with the HD-sound. So if some people dont trust what I or  Raslaw are writing, then please take an our or two (maybe more for some people at this thread) to read about this subject at the internet.

I really dont understand why some of you argue so much in this subject, when you havent done your homework before.

martin01:

Please 355f: I have not just read "a few internet articles". I have "spoken" to alot of people who really know this things at different international A/V-forums. I have read about 40-50 articles written by proffesionals. Please take that into notice. At those proffesional A/V-forum those proffesional people totally agree how all this works with the HD-sound, all of that we argue at this thread. So if some people who dont trust what I am writing or Raslaw, then please take an our or two (maybe more) to read about this subject at the internet.

I made no mention of whom i was making refernce to when I made that point.-

Im sure you have spoken to a lot of people and HDMI professionals. It is manufacturer dependant- In theory we all know how it works! -I know I make the stuff!- check where your Panasonic BD50 is made!?? and what factory it comes from???

Anyway, Im just waiting for the copy information you have received from B&O in Denmark confirming the BS3 will output HD audio and then I can action the matter my end.

Please forward the email that B&O have sent to you.

martin01:

Please 355f: I have not just read "a few internet articles". I have "spoken" to alot of people who really know this things at different international A/V-forums. I have read about 40-50 articles written by proffesionals. Please take that into notice. At those proffesional A/V-forum I have visit,the proffesional people there totally agree how all this works with the HD-sound, all of that we argue at this thread. So if some people who dont trust what I am writing or Raslaw, then please take an our or two (maybe more for some people at this thread) to read about this subject at the internet.

I really dont understand why some of you argue so much in this subject, when you havent done your homework before.

Isn't it because we take 355f at his word as someone who works in the industry and knows what he's talking about, and Moxxey as someone who works in a part of the media aligned to the AV industry (who incidentally was/is the biggest defender of recent B&O products and their technical merits), rather than some people who just went out and bought a BS3 (as 355f and Moxxey have - just like you), then cling to any information that seemingly backs up what they want to believe?

Take Wikkipedia as an example. My partner is an academic, and some of her junior students in their first year at university can't understand why they can't quote direct from Wikkipedia. The answer is simple, in that it is not peer-reviewed, so any muppet with a computer and an opinion can post. That's the info you're getting from the various AV forums you frequent. 355f and Moxxey have the 'truth' in that they asked the manufacturer in their professional capacities. Either they're fibbing and/or B&O don't know what the specs of their own products are if what you've picked up from a variety of 'sources' is correct!

martin01:

Guys, I have a Panasonic BD50 and know how it works. With BD50 you can decode HD-sound as Multichannel PCM, through both HDMI-cable and analog-outs (just read the manual for the player).So thats why we can use this fantastic machine with BS3 and then we have a very nice setup with already decoded HD-sound!!!!!!

Please forward the mail that B&O have sent to you

j0hnbarker:

martin01:

Please 355f: I have not just read "a few internet articles". I have "spoken" to alot of people who really know this things at different international A/V-forums. I have read about 40-50 articles written by proffesionals. Please take that into notice. At those proffesional A/V-forum I have visit,the proffesional people there totally agree how all this works with the HD-sound, all of that we argue at this thread. So if some people who dont trust what I am writing or Raslaw, then please take an our or two (maybe more for some people at this thread) to read about this subject at the internet.

I really dont understand why some of you argue so much in this subject, when you havent done your homework before.

Isn't it because we take 355f at his word as someone who works in the industry and knows what he's talking about, and Moxxey as someone who works in a part of the media aligned to the AV industry (who incidentally was/is the biggest defender of recent B&O products and their technical merits), rather than some people who just went out and bought a BS3 (as 355f and Moxxey have - just like you), then cling to any information that seemingly backs up what they want to believe?

Take Wikkipedia as an example. My partner is an academic, and some of her junior students in their first year at university can't understand why they can't quote direct from Wikkipedia. The answer is simple, in that it is not peer-reviewed, so any muppet with a computer and an opinion can post. That's the info you're getting from the various AV forums you frequent. 355f and Moxxey have the 'truth' in that they asked the manufacturer in their professional capacities. Either they're fibbing and/or B&O don't know what the specs of their own products are if what you've picked up from a variety of 'sources' is correct!

Well Im awaiting for a copy of the e mail that B&O has sent  to martin01 confirming he status of BS3.

Thats all I ask. Then I will know the bs3 I own and that of my associate is faulty. I will be very happy.

martin01:

Please 355f: I have not just read "a few internet articles". I have "spoken" to alot of people who really know this things at different international A/V-forums. I have read about 40-50 articles written by proffesionals. Please take that into notice. At those proffesional A/V-forums I have visited,the proffesional people there totally agree how all this works with the HD-sound. So if some people dont trust what I or  Raslaw are writing, then please take an our or two (maybe more for some people at this thread) to read about this subject at the internet.

I really dont understand why some of you argue so much in this subject, when you havent done your homework before.

Come on martin 01

Help me out here!- It takes a strong individual to admit they were wrong. I am prepared to do that and surrender to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Please therefore send the email you have from B&O head office that confirms the status of the BS3

martin01:

The mail I got from B&O regarding this will not say that BS3 will output HD-audio. It will say that it handle Multichannel PCM to all 6 channels. If we know how all this works, then this information will be enough. I will see if can find the e-mail I got from B&O. Even if I dont find this mail, I have no reason to lie about this subject and this discussion. I hope you understand that.

Please forward the email you have from B&O in Denmark.

Ive asked so many times- its only fair- then I can get my BS3 repaired and I will be very happy

Okey, suddenly people at other international A/V forums is incorrect about this subject and people at B&O-forum knows how all this with HD-sounds works(!?). Please read my links to Dolby-homepage (www.dolby.com) and DTS-homepage (www.dts.com) and read about this subject. They describe this in detail how all this works. To the question: Should we rely on some people at this forum or at the proffesionals at Dolby and DTS????

 Have a nice weekend.

/Martin

martin01:

Okey, suddenly people at other international A/V forums is incorrect about this subject and people at B&O-forum knows how all this with HD-sounds works(!?). Please read my links to Dolby-homepage (www.dolby.com) and DTS-homepage (www.dts.com) and read about this subject. They describe this in detail how all this works. To the question: Should we rely on some people at this forum or at the proffesionals at Dolby and DTS????

 Have a nice weekend.

/Martin

Have a nice weekend- the week has just begun!

l

It is manufacturer dependant Im not intersted in links to any more websites, or discussions you have had.

Please forward the e mail that has been sent to you from B&O denmark confirming .

moxxey:

peterjacobs:

Yippeee !. Thanks Martin. Looks like my schizophrenia takes over again. So my new BS3 is not rubbish after all and will support some sort of HD full or not !.

 So should it now be the PS 3 with its new firmware update that outputs and decodes full hd MA or do I go for the Panasonic BD 50 which also does the decoding albeit its more expenses than the PS3 ? That is the quesion ?

I'd rather take the advice from 355f and Soundproof..

Not necessarily, moxxey -- I think what this all points out is that B&O are abysmal with their tech spec's and with their information to customers who have legitimate queries.
And we could also be looking at some "legalese twisting on the hook" here -- maybe the very latest version of BeoSystem 3 is capable (we still don't have this properly confirmed), while earlier versions weren't. That would explain why 355f got a "no" and why they are now saying "yes" -- but it doesn't explain why you were recently told "no."

But if the answer is that it will handle uncompressed PCM at high resolution, this still doesn't say anything about HD-audio being properly handled.

I bought my first serious bit of B&O in 1983, and then swapped it for Beosystem 5000 in 1984. That's also when my "damn they're lousy at writing manuals" relationship with B&O began! 

martin01:

Okey, suddenly people at other international A/V forums is incorrect about this subject and people at B&O-forum knows how all this with HD-sounds works(!?). Please read my links to Dolby-homepage (www.dolby.com) and DTS-homepage (www.dts.com) and read about this subject. They describe this in detail how all this works. To the question: Should we rely on some people at this forum or at the proffesionals at Dolby and DTS????

 Have a nice weekend.

/Martin

Whilst you mention Dolby- as I mentioned earlier I had the ex sales director of dolby europe here and he confirms he is not hearing HD audio. So at leeat we agree we can accept the same body to confirm things.

Now, all i need is that e mail you have from B&O in Denmark confirming this for me.

soundproof:

moxxey:

peterjacobs:

Yippeee !. Thanks Martin. Looks like my schizophrenia takes over again. So my new BS3 is not rubbish after all and will support some sort of HD full or not !.

 So should it now be the PS 3 with its new firmware update that outputs and decodes full hd MA or do I go for the Panasonic BD 50 which also does the decoding albeit its more expenses than the PS3 ? That is the quesion ?

I'd rather take the advice from 355f and Soundproof..

Not necessarily, moxxey -- I think what this all points out is that B&O are abysmal with their tech spec's and with their information to customers who have legitimate queries.
And we could also be looking at some "legalese twisting on the hook" here -- maybe the latest version of BeoSystem 3 is capable (we still don't have this properly confirmed), while earlier versions weren't. That would explain why 355f got a "no" and why they are now saying "yes" -- but it doesn't explain why you were recently told "no."

That is  a possible explanation, although , technology advances and i cant see a problem with B&O saying - from serial NO..... you have full HD audio support.  although I had a BV7mk111 on loan before arrival of BS3 and I had the same issue. Unless of course there is another version of BS3 in later variants of BV7MK111- although I find it hard to believe they are developing product as such a pace when they get even get the software right!

Be that as it may- all I need is the confirmation e mail thats been received by martin01 at least then we will know some owners are more fortunate than others in being able to output HD audio, then i can pursue it my end

Puncher:

To reiterate what was mentioned earlier - "Uncompressed PCM" does not imply HD audio - I could give you an audio track sampled at 11KHz using an 8 bit converter - it will be uncompressed and it will be PCM but it certainly won't be HD.

16 bit 48KHz isn't what I would call HD either, it is the "standard" sampling rate for DVD audio (compared to CD audio which is 44.1KHz) - they are different for a host of obscure reasons but, for all intents, the same quality.

For HD audio I would expect a minimum of 24bit 96KHz (the sampling rate can be as high as 192KHz) and, for surround sound, I would expect this, i.e. full bandwidth, on every channel.

The question remains - what maximum sample rate/word length can the BS3 handle and can it distribute full bandwidth, uncompressed data to all surround speakers.

If you are defining HD Audio as having a minimum of 96hKz, then you are not talking about Dolby TrueHD. According to the Dolby web page,  Dolby TrueHD has a MAXIMUM rate of 96kHz, not minimum.

Dolby - Dolby Technology - Dolby TrueHD for High Definition Media Audio and Vi

DTS HDMaster does support up to 196kHz accoring to the DTS Whitepaper on the DTS site.

martin01:

I really dont understand why some of you argue so much in this subject, when you havent done your homework before.

355f is probably one the most experienced people on this board, in this area. He works in this field. I think you'd be surprised. Unfortunately some people can't reveal who they are exactly, but you need to trust their word. Although 355f doesn't work for B&O, there are also people on here, from B&O. There are more dealers that you'd expect, too.

I wish The Stig and Beolab would enter this discussion - a couple of BS3 owners with both a wealth of knowledge and very well respected on this board. I guess both are on vacation. The Stig is in a position where he could also settle this discussion....if you know what I mean.

Razlaw:

Puncher:

To reiterate what was mentioned earlier - "Uncompressed PCM" does not imply HD audio - I could give you an audio track sampled at 11KHz using an 8 bit converter - it will be uncompressed and it will be PCM but it certainly won't be HD.

16 bit 48KHz isn't what I would call HD either, it is the "standard" sampling rate for DVD audio (compared to CD audio which is 44.1KHz) - they are different for a host of obscure reasons but, for all intents, the same quality.

For HD audio I would expect a minimum of 24bit 96KHz (the sampling rate can be as high as 192KHz) and, for surround sound, I would expect this, i.e. full bandwidth, on every channel.

The question remains - what maximum sample rate/word length can the BS3 handle and can it distribute full bandwidth, uncompressed data to all surround speakers.

If you are defining HD Audio as having a minimum of 96hKz, then you are not talking about Dolby TrueHD. According to the Dolby web page,  Dolby TrueHD has a MAXIMUM rate of 96kHz, not minimum.

Dolby - Dolby Technology - Dolby TrueHD for High Definition Media Audio and Vi

DTS HDMaster does support up to 196kHz accoring to the DTS Whitepaper on the DTS site.

My understanding of the link you have posted is that up to 8 channels of 24bit 96KHz audio - i.e. it can have less than 8 channels but all are at 24bit 96KHz.

Sorry if I appear to be misinterpreting the data.

Now here's something you don't see every day - I am going to contradict myself and admit I was wrong and that a lot (the majority it would seem) of what is released under the TrueHD and DTS HD MA banners are not 24bit 96KHz. Indeed, buried away in the TrueHD specification is the following spec. -

"Dolby TrueHD for next-generation highdefinition media delivers sampling frequencies from 48 to 192 kHz and word lengths from 16 to 24 bits".

This prompted me to look at the specs. of recently released Blueray discs that have either TrueHD or DTS HD MA soundtracks. Some reviews actually give the word length and sample frequency. The results are below -

What is apparent is that there are discs with either TrueHD or DTS HD MA soundtracks which are still 16 bit 48KHz. What is suprising is that modern, high budget movies, such as Batman Begins are still being issued at this level.

It would therefore appear that, currently, the only definite advantage of the HD audio formats is that all channels are non-compressed, full bandwidth. It seems a bit of a con to me but there you go, that's marketing for you

Now back to the (slightly modified) original questions -

Can the BS3 output non-compressed, full bandwidth audio data, received from a suitable player such as the PS3, on all surround channels.

If so, which word lengths and sample rates can it handle. Beyond these limits does the BS3 transcode the data to a "lossy" format.

Since this thread started, I emailed B&O through their official support link on the B&O web site.  Below is my question and their response.  I certainly hope that this settles the matter and that 355f can get his BS3 fixed.  :)

Or does this NOT settle it???   

 -- Paul

======================== 

from	Bang & Olufsen Support <bogo@mailuk.custhelp.com>
reply-to		Bang & Olufsen Support <bogo@mailuk.custhelp.com>
date		Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:21 AM
subject		BeoSystem 3 specifications [Incident: 080809-000020]

Thank you for your request. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

It's a tangled web - as if we weren't already despondent enough, here's what happens between Panasonic's most sophisticated BD-player and receivers that do not provide the proper HDPC handshake ...

(I believe I've touched upon this before, but I consider Full-HD and HDMI to be hardware and software keys conjured up by content providers, in collusion with manufacturers and software developers, in order to be able to lock unauthorised users out of their content and equipment. Unfortunately, it also affects authorised users negatively.)