This recording is, of course, an exceptional case - but it gives you an idea of what both BD is capable of, and what may soon be generally available (either on disc, or as downloads). It's the world's first music release on BD in DSD and uncompressed Linear PCM resolution.

Full resolution recording takes place in DSD format - and this recording contains a 5.1 uncompressed, full resolution DSD version -- as well as downmixes to other formats from that, all the way to lowly CD-resolution.

The DSD 5.1 version has a throughput rate of 2.8224Mbit/s/channel

The Linear PCM 5.1 surround is 24bit/192kHz/channel

The receiver/processor needs to be able to handle those rates, of course.

http://www.2l.musiconline.no/shop/displayAlbum.asp?id=34188

 As you can see below, processor capacity dictates whether each channel gets the full treatment. This is for Pioneer's LX70 player - the third line indicates samplerate limits for 5.1 vs 2.0:

"2. You let the player do the decoding. In this case you connect the player with HDMI-cable and the output from the player is digital PCM-sound. In this case the player decode the sound but the AMP will do all the bass management, room compensation and so on. The AMP will make the D/A, which means that it convert the digital pcm-sound to analog so we get sound in our speakers. In this case you just need an AMP that support HDMI 1.1 or higher and of course the AMP does not need to have the ability to decode the HD-sound. It is important that the AMP support Multichannel PCM. (Beosystem 3 supports this, and this is the way how we are going to enjoy full DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD-sound)."

355f: 

This is what the Beosystem 3 supports. IT ACCEPTS MULTICHANNEL PCM. SO NO NEED FOR INTERNAL DECODING. PERIOD.  

Jean 

 

Exclamatory punctuation is always fun. Particularly in telegraph style.

Let's approach this from another angle. (Cribbing from Absolute Sound).

The issue is the ability of the unit to process a stream of data.
DVD is limited to Dolby Digital (DD) and DTS (the uncompressed PCM 16-bit/48kHz stereo audio on music titles is also an option, though inferior to CD-quality in spite of the higher sample-rate, interestingly enough.)

DD is limited to a data rate of 384kilobits/per second (kbps) -- with a few releases in 448kbps. On most releases the 384kbps datarate limits 5.1 playback to 64kbps per channel (low quality MP3). Usually, one steals capacity from the low-information channels (surrounds) and give that to the front channels (L/R), in order to increase the fidelity of the decisive information.

With BD we have the ability to store a lot more audio data on a disc.
When launching the new formats, it was decided that the players would be "backwards compatible" - that is, you would be able to get sound out of them, even if your receiver didn't have the processing ability to handle high-rate throughput. This is why there is a core of standard surround info that can be extracted from the bitstream.

Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio make full use of the possibilities - and each offer a data rate that is sixty times (60!) as great as that of the Dolby Digital tracks typically found on DVD. The maximum data rate is 24Mbps - Megabits/per second, up from 384kilobits/s.
This means that a Blu-ray Disc can deliver 24-bit/192kHz resolution audio to each channel in a 7.1 setup. No need to cheat by channeling capacity, in other words.

(Dolby Digital Plus has 6Mbps, and offers a lossy option to some producers, let's hope they don't use it. DTS-HD is similar to DDPlus, while DTS-HD Master Audio has the same maximum bit-rate of 24Mbps.)

OK - relevance to this amusing thread.
As Absolute Sound has it: It's important to note that these new audio formats are backward-compatible with the 40-million-plus Dolby Digital decoders in the world. If you use a Blu-ray player with a controller or AVR (receiver) that lacks the ability to decode these new formats, you simply connect the Blu-ray player to the controller or AVR through the familiar coaxial or TosLink jacks (or HDMI). The Blu-ray player will downconvert the new format to Dolby Digital datastream at 640kbps (an improvement over the 384kbps typically used on DVD.)
Of course, you won't realize the full benefits of the new audio formats, but the sound will be better than what's possible from DVD.

The issue is whether the receiver can handle the full content datastream properly, or whether it configures for the automatic downconversion that results when the handshake reveals incompatibility. And on that point, even B&O is confused, apparently, when it comes to BeoSystem 3.
But again - if it did, it would be in the spec's.

Well, the specs for B&O:s products will not always say everything. I know for sure that BS3 supports Multichannel-PCM, which means that if you make the decoding of the HD-codecs in the BR-player then you will get full TrueHD or DTS-HD sound in the speakers. I have tried this myself and have done A/B comparison between ordinary DD and DolbyTrue HD (on the same BR-movie). And there is a great difference in the sound. Just put the "speaker" to 5 when you make the decoding in the BR-player, and the "sound system" in the BS3 will show "multichannel PCM".

In the specs for BS3 it does not say that it supports Multichannel PCM. But If you try what I describe above, then you will se that it will support this. B&O have also confirmed that BS3 can handle up to 96khz/24bit sound.

Regards
Martin

'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'

When I first acquired BS3 I was keen to show its capability to an engineer who is well versed in manufacture of AV.

On selecting true HD ( on a dvd that he also had a copy of)- the comment was- very nice, let me know when it supports  HD audio! and was given the benefit of a demonstration on his equipment and it sounded extremely impressive- in fact miles apart.clearly BS3 was not outputting it, and having spent £5500 on a BS3 I have to admit i was disspointed ! To ensure that variances in systems were taken into account I also listened to standard dvd and the sound was identical to my B&O.

So the ears say no. PERIOD.

the engineer says no. PERIOD.

the manufacturer says no- on two occasions- and this is a major marketing point- they will know! PERIOD

I have tried to state previously that the vested interests that  publish articles on the net  are there only to further this medium of transfer- there are no grey areas- and yet, time and time again in reality this is not the case In theory things can be done- in practise- its depends upon the interpretation and the manufacturer. One thing is sure if both products are HDMI1.3 it will work for sure!

Anyway, I think we should all return our  BS3 and BV7mk111  as faulty, as we have 2 individuals that can receive true HD on their equipment  so the servicing department is going to be very busy- ah I hear you say- the engineers dont know!

So whats clear is those that should know , do know and will know- dont know

 

355f, my dealer has also confirmed that the BS3 does NOT support True HD and other HD audio. I've asked them to post on here, but I guess most dealers are very reluctant to post official information on a public forum.

I wonder why TripEnglish or other known dealers on this forum haven't commented? What's the official line from them - they can easily find out from B&O and post the response on here.

I'm not saying Martin and others are completely wrong, but B&O, my dealer and other 'official' sources say it is not supported. This discussion is a little like the original 24fps discussion someone started last year - some people insisted the BS3 did support 24fps, others claimed it did not. We had to wait for someone to post from B&O (from the bang-olufsen.com forum) to say that it didn't support 24fps, for the discussion to conclude.

I have never said that BS3 support (or decode) the new HD-codecs. What I have said is that BS3 can receive allready decoded signal as  Digital-Multichannel PCM. Multichannel PCM is a stream that is decoded and the only thing BS3 will do with this signal is to make a D/A-conversion (digital-to-analog) so we get sound in our speakers.

/Martin

Moxxey, we dont have to wait until B&O confirm if BS3 will or will not support any HD-codecs. If you try to understand how all this works with decoding sound with a BR-player (PCM-sound) or in the receiver (BS3) thru bitstream, then we dont have to discuss this anymore at this thread.

Finally: BS3 does NOT decode the new HD-codec, but it will receive an already decoded signal from a BR-player, and when BS3 receive an already decoded signal from a BR-player then we will get the full HD-sound. Thats it! I have read about 40 different articles in A/V-press (and AV-forum) about this, and therfore I have a good knowledge about this.

/Martin

Martin, it's not just as simple as including a software codec. If it was this easy, then B&O would have issued a similar statement as they did when someone asked about 24fps support, stating they were working on a solution. A codec is a software solution.

Maybe you have read many articles, but I trust B&O, the official statement and their knowledge of their products. I also trust my dealer who is currently owned by B&O UK (and isn't a franchise).

"Martin, it's not just as simple as including a software codec"

Moxxey, I know that it is not just a software issue. If BS3 should be able to decode the new HD-codecs, then B&O have to change their HDMI-interface from 1.1 to 1.3a. They have to change A LOT in the software. But I still dont know why we argue about this. I am just saying what BS3 can and not can do with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (with bitstream or decoded PCM). This is a very complex thing to understand, but If we all try to learn about this subject before we write things that we really not understand or don´t know about, then we would have a real interesting discussion hear at this thread.

/Martin

regarding the word "codec": What I mean with this (and other guys at other AV-forums) is a short name for the new Dolby True HD and DTS-HD sound-formats. Don´t misunderstand this expression as to be something else, like software in the BS3 or Software in the Bluray-player.

martin01:

regarding the word "codec": What I mean with this (and other guys at other AV-forums) is a short name for the new Dolby True HD and DTS-HD sound-formats. Don´t misunderstand this expression as to be something else, like software in the BS3 or Software in the Bluray-player.

Martin, I understand perfectly what you mean. I work in the IT press in London, so I have some basic understanding of technology..

However, if you now say that the BS3 needs an upgrade to HDMI 1.3, doesn't this go against what you've said previously? ie. "Beosystem 3 supports this, and this is the way how we are going to enjoy full DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD-sound". If the BS3 requires HDMI 1.3 - as you now say - then this is a major hardware upgrade and would require a brand new BS3.

It's like saying our Beocenter 2 could be upgraded to Blu-ray in the future. Sure, it can, but it will be a completely new device.

martin01:

"Martin, it's not just as simple as including a software codec"

Moxxey, I know that it is not just a software issue. If BS3 should be able to decode the new HD-codecs, then B&O have to change their HDMI-interface from 1.1 to 1.3a. They have to change A LOT in the software. But I still dont know why we argue about this. I am just saying what BS3 can and not can do with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (with bitstream or decoded PCM). This is a very complex thing to understand, but If we all try to learn about this subject before we write things that we really not understand or don´t know about, then we would have a real interesting discussion hear at this thread.

/Martin

Well it is a complex thing to understand but what im not sure about is 'who is writing things that they dont understand or know about'? the 'expertise' here has largely come from reading a few websites and pronounced as gospel. But it seems the manufacturer view has no credibility or anyone else that questions it.

In the end surely what matters is can I hear the huge difference that I should  ( and have heard on other equipment) via a connected PS3 outputing MA.  This surely saves any debate at all.

I cannot tell the difference and neither can our engineer-  so with all the 'internet experts here' perhaps B&O should issue a product recal  so that I and others can enjoy the benefits of BS3 with HD audio which is a 'secret feature' from B&O! which several individuals here maintain they have with BS3

The user 'soundproof' is one of the few who has looked at the matter from both a practical and technical viewpoint, rather than simply 'cut and paste' from a website  thats supports HDMI in the mistaken belief that everything contained in it applies to B&O and his explanation of what may be happening seems quite possible. Either way its not true HD

When I say that "Beosystem 3 supports this", I mean that BS3 can handle decoded sound from a BR-player thru Multichannel PCM and then we will get the new HD-sound.

So we have different anonymous sources connected to B and O, some say yes, some say no.

We have specifications that do not list it, although those specifications relate to the internal decoder. By the way, one can use the numbers on the Beo 4 to select a channel on an attached Sony Blu-Ray player, even though I do not believe that function is listed in the specifications.

We have multiple articles indicating it will work, no articles saying it wont work.

The threads on this topic on the official B and O web page forums all say it works and no B and O moderator, as of yet, has stepped in to say otherwise. However, being open minded and trying to discuss and understand, rather than getting angry as some seem to do here when people disagree with them, I posted another inquiry suggesting B and O respond with a definitive answer.

Here is a crazy idea, why doesn't somebody obtain a192kHz Blu-Ray disc, place it in the Blu-Ray player and set it to output uncompressed PCM. Then touch menu and 3 on the Beo 4 to bring up a screen that displays the kHz that the BV7/BS3 is outputting? 

Actually, I already started to do that. Last night I ordered the new Blu-Ray Audio disc mentioned here, but I am sure it will take awhile to cross the Atlantic to get to me. 

To understand what I am writing regarding this subject in this thread, please read the following links to Dolby Digitals Homepage and DTS - homepage:

This two homepages will say the same thing about this issue. When you have read this two links, the only important thing to know IF BS3 will support Multichannel PCM or not. I know it support it, beacuse I use it three times a week when I look at BR-movies.

Link 1: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/avrs/trueHD_avrs_2.html

Link 2: http://www.dts.com/DTS_In_Consumer_Products/HD_Home_Theater/Connections.aspx

At Link 2, click on the pictures!

Regards
Martin

martin01:

When I say that "Beosystem 3 supports this", I mean that BS3 can handle decoded sound from a BR-player thru Multichannel PCM and then we will get the new HD-sound.

I know and what im saying is I have PS3 that outputs HD sound via HDMI to BS3 and I am not getting HD sound- B&O say you dont get HD sound, my engineer says im not getting HD sound, further investigations into the way BS3 has been configured say I wont get SD sound.

Are you saying then that all ( apart from 2 posters on here) BS3 and BV7 MK111 are faulty and should be retured to B&O??because they cant output HD audio?

So either all the units are faulty or your statement does not apply to BS3, (although it might to other manufacturers)

which is it to be??

[dublicate

Yes! No! Yes! No!

Martin - it's down to whether BeoSystem 3 can handle the huge datastream.

I own BeoLab 5 speakers. These can take an analog or digital signal. No matter what type, the incoming signal is first upconverted to 24/96kHz. Then it's processed by the speakers' sophisticated circuits, and then it's sent on to a 32bit final stage DAC before amplification.

When the speakers came out, the 24/96 upconversion was very sophisticated - today it's quite par for the course. At that time, there were no available sources at higher resolutions. Now, particularly with material such as that I showed above (Divertimenti - available from Amazon), there are sources with higher resolutions than my speakers' native digital processing bottleneck.
This means that to get the effect of full resolution DSD, I should pre-process outside the speakers, and then send the analog signal to them (!). If I send the BD full-resolution digital signal (as a PCM bitstream) to the speakers, then it would be DOWNconverted, before endstage processing.

No problem - the analog workaround will do excellently. Though there are high-bitrates (beyond 24/96), that my BL5s can't handle at all ... without the workaround.

This should demonstrate to you that there are many issues to be considered beyond the mere fact that a PCM bitstream can be passed to the component.

I doubt that BeoSystem 3 has the necessary chipsets to handle multi-channel FULL RESOLUTION HD Audio - it may be able to handle Dolby Digital Plus mode.

But we'll soon find out, won't we?

[

 duplicate!

I have talked to one B&O engineer (in Struer) who says that BS3 support and can handle 96khz/24bit and he says that it also handle Multichannel PCM. So obviosly different people at B&O says different things.

martin01:

I have talked to one B&O engineer (in Struer) who says that BS3 support and can handle 96khz/24bit and he says that it also handle Multichannel PCM. So obviosly different people at B&O says different things.

 

If you cant HEAR it you havent got it!

soundproof:

Yes! No! Yes! No!

Martin - it's down to whether BeoSystem 3 can handle the huge datastream.

I own BeoLab 5 speakers. These can take an analog or digital signal. No matter what type, the incoming signal is first upconverted to 24/96kHz. Then it's processed by the speakers' sophisticated circuits, and then it's sent on to a 32bit final stage DAC before amplification.

When the speakers came out, the 24/96 upconversion was very sophisticated - today it's quite par for the course. At that time, there were no available sources at higher resolutions. Now, particularly with material such as that I showed above (Divertimenti - available from Amazon), there are sources with higher resolutions than my speakers' native digital processing bottleneck.
This means that to get the effect of full resolution DSD, I should pre-process outside the speakers, and then send the analog signal to them (!). If I send the BD full-resolution digital signal (as a PCM bitstream) to the speakers, then it would be DOWNconverted, before endstage processing.

No problem - the analog workaround will do excellently. Though there are high-bitrates (beyond 24/96), that my BL5s can't handle at all ... without the workaround.

This should demonstrate to you that there are many issues to be considered beyond the mere fact that a PCM bitstream can be passed to the component.

I doubt that BeoSystem 3 has the necessary chipsets to handle multi-channel FULL RESOLUTION HD Audio - it may be able to handle Dolby Digital Plus mode.

But we'll soon find out, won't we?

Well if you cant hear it you havent got it! might be  agood moto.!

 

I suppose there is another issue. When the BS3 was designed B&O did not have their own BR player so it would hardly have been in their interest to design extra capability to allow connection of third party devices.  Most of the customers would not know anyway.Thats never has been a B&O forte. Just as they could have made it easy for BS3 to connect to third party panels and work properly.

It would seem from their perspective sensible to wait till they did have BR and then upgrade accordingly to the recognised standard JHDMI 1.3.

Raslaw, I have a question to you: How can you see the khz-output (at Multichannel PCM) at BS3/Bv7?

You said that you push Menu+3. But then you should get up the "picture"-menu, or am I wrong? Please explain how you do.

Regards
Martin

Razlaw:

So we have different anonymous sources connected to B and O, some say yes, some say no.

Who has said that B&O have said 'yes'? Could you give me this quote please? ie. show me some info. Everything I've read here indicates that B&O say that it does not support True HD or any HD audio. They told me this directly and so did my local dealer.