HDMI 1.3 was established as a standard for hidef audio to some degree, and its manufacturer dependant,there is reverse compatability so that in certain circumstances with certain brands, if the player does the decoding and the specs of the HDMI 1.1 amp indicate that it will decode master audio- then its possible it will.

This does not however change the position that the BS3 does not. This was a concern I had, having purchased a BS3, knowing its very unlikely to be upgradable.

As stated before I contacted B&O when i realised i was not hearing what I should be from the new audio codecs compared to a system which was 1.3 compliant- hence my earlier comments

But hey, if your getting them, maybe my BS3 should go in for repair.

355f:

HDMI 1.3 was established as a standard for hidef audio to some degree, and its manufacturer dependant,there is reverse compatability so that in certain circumstances with certain brands, if the player does the decoding and the specs of the HDMI 1.1 amp indicate that it will decode master audio- then its possible it will.

 I'm confused by your "...if the player does the decoding and the specs of the HDMI 1.1 amp indicate that it will decode master audio..." statement.  If the player does the decoding, there's nothing left to decode by the time it gets to the amp! There's no "master audio" left in the signal when it leaves the player.  Even if the source was DTS-HD Master Audio, the amp will still get plain lossless uncompressed PCM at the lossless bit rate/depth, resulting in a perfect lossless sound.  If the codec was a lossier one, such as Dolby Digital AC3, it'd still be uncompressed PCM, just at a slower bit rate/depth.
 
-- Paul
 

beopaul:

355f:

HDMI 1.3 was established as a standard for hidef audio to some degree, and its manufacturer dependant,there is reverse compatability so that in certain circumstances with certain brands, if the player does the decoding and the specs of the HDMI 1.1 amp indicate that it will decode master audio- then its possible it will.

 I'm confused by your "...if the player does the decoding and the specs of the HDMI 1.1 amp indicate that it will decode master audio..." statement.  If the player does the decoding, there's nothing left to decode by the time it gets to the amp! There's no "master audio" left in the signal when it leaves the player.  Even if the source was DTS-HD Master Audio, the amp will still get plain lossless uncompressed PCM at the lossless bit rate/depth, resulting in a perfect lossless sound.  If the codec was a lossier one, such as Dolby Digital AC3, it'd still be uncompressed PCM, just at a slower bit rate/depth.
 
-- Paul
 

 

yes sorry its getting late in the day!!

What I meant was that there is some degree of backward compatability!

I think you'll have to find another line of business, 355f! :-)

Sometimes, Occam's Razor can be helpful. I'd think that if BeoSystem 3 properly handled the HD Audio formats that would be clearly marked in the spec's, and the manual would indicate how to ensure one got the proper signal processing. The person at B&O who told 355f that BeoSystem 3 does not handle these formats clearly has no clue ... :-)

 

beopaul:

Ok,  there's lots of confusion here.  I feel I have the final answer and will provide references:

 In short, as long as the player has the appropriate decoder and outputs PCM, the BS3 can handle ANY format!  This includes True-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio, with ZERO loss in quality.

 When a receiver receives PCM, it has no clue what codec was used, nor does it need to. It only knows how many channels, what bit rate, and bit depth, since it's already decoded data.  Even HDMI 1.0 can handle 8 channels of 128KHz/24-bit PCM, which is LOSSLESS QUALITY, so the BS3's 1.2 HDMI will have no problems with PCM. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi.

 DTS-HD is lossless, which as I explained in the above paragraph, loses nothing when fed as bitstream to the BS3. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD#DTS-HD_Master_Audio.   Same thing for True-HD.

Don't trust Wikipedia?  Here's straight from the horse's mouth (look under response to Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?):

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=16#16
 

 Hopefully, this will end this discussion.  Of course, let me know if I'm wrong here.

-- Paul
 

Excellent Post and explanation. Regrettably your hope that it will end the discussion may not come true. I posted the exact same link, from the "horse's mouth," two days ago and it had no effect. Perhaps your post will work better.

Razlaw:

beopaul:

Ok,  there's lots of confusion here.  I feel I have the final answer and will provide references:

 In short, as long as the player has the appropriate decoder and outputs PCM, the BS3 can handle ANY format!  This includes True-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio, with ZERO loss in quality.

 When a receiver receives PCM, it has no clue what codec was used, nor does it need to. It only knows how many channels, what bit rate, and bit depth, since it's already decoded data.  Even HDMI 1.0 can handle 8 channels of 128KHz/24-bit PCM, which is LOSSLESS QUALITY, so the BS3's 1.2 HDMI will have no problems with PCM. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi.

 DTS-HD is lossless, which as I explained in the above paragraph, loses nothing when fed as bitstream to the BS3. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD#DTS-HD_Master_Audio.   Same thing for True-HD.

Don't trust Wikipedia?  Here's straight from the horse's mouth (look under response to Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?):

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=16#16
 

 Hopefully, this will end this discussion.  Of course, let me know if I'm wrong here.

-- Paul
 

Excellent Post and explanation. Regrettably your hope that it will end the discussion may not come true. I posted the exact same link, from the "horse's mouth," two days ago and it had no effect. Perhaps your post will work better.

That article is written by the HDMI appreciation society! seems its all good news with HDMI- how far from reality in the real world though

 

And I have kept saying B&O themsleves confirm that it does not support it!- but its had no effect. I will dig out their response and PM you!

But then one  might say- I dont believe the reponse of B&O- what then!

355f:

And I have kept saying B&O themsleves confirm that it does not support it!- but its had no effect. I will dig out their response and PM you!

355f, you are correct. Since I asked this original question, I've been told by B&O that the BS3 (and BV7-40 etc) does NOT support True HD or DTS Master HD. Although I can't reveal the source, I can confirm it is official.

So, 335f, what you said right from the beginning, is absolutely correct.

Take a look at the specifications for the BS3 right here on Beoworld. When speaking of Dolby etc, they are listed as Decoding Capabilities. I do not think anybody here is saying that BS3/BV7 will decode the High Definition Audio formats. What is being said is that once the decoding has been done by a Blu-Ray the BV7/BS3 can accept the decoded signal via PCM.

For those that say BV7/BS3 will not accept decoded Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master, what about uncompressed audio. In other words if a Blu-Ray disc contains uncompressed audio that does not need to be decoded, and can pass in PCM format through the HDMI, can the BS3/BV7 receive that?  

moxxey:

355f:

And I have kept saying B&O themsleves confirm that it does not support it!- but its had no effect. I will dig out their response and PM you!

355f, you are correct. Since I asked this original question, I've been told by B&O that the BS3 (and BV7-40 etc) does NOT support True HD or DTS Master HD. Although I can't reveal the source, I can confirm it is official.

So, 335f, what you said right from the beginning, is absolutely correct.

So we now have two official B&O sources stating the same. Razlaw, I can assure you that if BeoSystem 3 could process True HD and DTS Master HD, then it would say so in the spec's -- whether as direct source or as PCM.

 

Would it help if I too said that true HD is not supported?

soundproof:

So we now have two official B&O sources stating the same. 

Yep :( I sent 355f a PM with my thoughts on this response. It went something like this: can you imagine buying a BV4-65, BS3, BL5, get home with your top-of-the-range cinema system....to find it doesn't even support some of the core features of a standard Blu-ray.

To give 355f some credit, what he's said from the start is exactly how it is 'on the tin'.

My dealer just confirmed to me that BV7 DOES support decoded Dolby TrueHD etc. A post in here earlier suggested visiting a high end dealer of products other than B and O. My dealer sells virtually every other mainstream brand, Apple, Sony, LG, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, Polk etc so they are familiar with the subject in general, not just B and O.

Razlaw:

My dealer just confirmed to me that BV7 DOES support decoded Dolby TrueHD etc. A post in here earlier suggested visiting a high end dealer of products other than B and O. My dealer sells virtually every other mainstream brand, Apple, Sony, LG, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, Polk etc so they are familiar with the subject in general, not just B and O.

 

hes a good dealer!

Razlaw:

My dealer just confirmed to me that BV7 DOES support decoded Dolby TrueHD etc.

Trust me, your dealer is clueless. As a member of the press, I deal with B&O's press department for direct answers and they say, officially, there is no support in the BS3 for True HD.

I can believe what a trusted dealer says, along with what every technical article about Dolby TrueHD and HDMI says( as cited by me and others in this thread), along with what my own ears hear, orI  can believe assertions with no cited authority to back them up other than unamed sources?  Not much of a choice.

To the extent the official specs do not list Dolby TrueHD, of course they do not as the BS 3 clearly does not decode. That is left for the Blu-Ray player to do.

How do you explain the BV7 on screen display indicating it is receiving as input PCM and at the same time displays PCM as the output format?  This is the exact same B and O display that will display dolby digital with a DVD.

Razlaw:

I can believe what a trusted dealer says, along with..

Razlaw, believe what you like to believe, if that makes you happier. That's fine by me. It's not as if I do not own the same TV as you - I do. However, I'm also a realist and I also receive official correspondence. Am I happy these standards are not supported? No, of course not.

If I was a moderator, I'd consider locking this thread now. Unless B&O come on this forum and post a response directly, nothing more can be said. Indeed, if B&O did, I don't think Razlaw would believe this answer either. So, what's the point.

So, by your silence you can not explain the BV7s display of PCM?

Also, I am not the only person in this thread who understands what the literature says and believes as I do.

Nobody has yet provided any explanation or reason that the technical articles cited herein are wrong and/or do not apply to B and O. I deal in facts, not statements with nothing to support them. 

 

Does the BS3 support (officially or otherwise) PCM?  It's not listed in the spec. Does it support 192KHz/24bit PCM?  If not, then we certainly have a problem here.

 -- Paul
 

beopaul:

Does the BS3 support (officially or otherwise) PCM?  It's not listed in the spec. Does it support 192KHz/24bit PCM?  If not, then we certainly have a problem here.

 -- Paul
 

I can not find anything in the specifications for the BS3 regarding PCM. However, check out the specifications for the DVD 2 on the Bang and Olufsen page. It does support PCM. It would seem reasonable to believe that B and O would not have included PCM on the DVD 2 if the BS3 did not support it. Also, the "Sound System" menu on our BV7 clearly shows PCM as both input and output. 

The issue here is whether it supports the through-speeds of full resolution audio, Razlaw. PCM is just a term - pulse code modulation - and is a method for quantization of analog signals in digital form.

Full resolution, multi-channel 24-bit, 96/192kHz throughspeeds is something that only a very few processors are configured for, and that's the issue here, and is why B&O informs those who ask them that BeoSystem 3 is not capable of uncompressed HD Audio.

I have PCM showing on my processor when I run a toslink optical signal, two-channel, with CD-resolution (16-bit/44.1kHz) to it from a Mac mini. But my processor, in spite of being quite advanced, is not capable of HD audio.

Razlaw:

beopaul:

Does the BS3 support (officially or otherwise) PCM?  It's not listed in the spec. Does it support 192KHz/24bit PCM?  If not, then we certainly have a problem here.

 -- Paul
 

I can not find anything in the specifications for the BS3 regarding PCM. However, check out the specifications for the DVD 2 on the Bang and Olufsen page. It does support PCM. It would seem reasonable to believe that B and O would not have included PCM on the DVD 2 if the BS3 did not support it. Also, the "Sound System" menu on our BV7 clearly shows PCM as both input and output. 

I think one of the problems is that the many websites that give reference information about HDMI are supported by the HDMI forum and as such the content is solely for the advancement of HDMI and its attributes. better picture, better sound, ect. In fact its no such thing it is a rather mixed content protection system that many brands did not want to adopt but the technology was thrust upon them.

This is why one can find varying reports about what HDMI can and cant do. In theory ! Generally speaking, as a guide a receiver capable of outputting full resolution audio is more likely- to be HDMI1.3 compliant.

The only way to really know  and not get confused is to ask the question to the manufacturer, is your product capable of HD audio output?- that way there is no confusion as to connection of any product connected to it.

I asked said question to B&O technical some time ago and the answer was no.

Sad really, a £20K B&Ohome cinema that cant play hidef audio  when most entry level BR players have offered it for some time.

I know its difficlut to accept  but its rather like a bereavement- at first, lack of acceptance and denial and then the realisation that the BS3 cant support it.

Alright guys, time to sort things out again:

1. The question about if Beosystem 3 support Multichannel PCM 96khz/24bit: YES, it support this. I have talked to a person at B&O who works with this and he confirms that BS3 support this. This DOES NOT mean that BS3 will decode the HD-codecs.

I repeat what I wrote erlier in this thread:

You have three choices to decode Dolby True HD and DTS-HD:

1. You send Bitstream (not decoded signal) from the player to the amp. In this case the amp will make ALL the decoding and bass management and roomcompensation and so on. In this case you need a player that support HDMI 1.3 and an Amp that support HDMI 1.3. Of course you need an AMP that can decode the new codecs. You connect the two devices with HDMI-cable (1.3 certified). Beosystem 3 does NOT decode the the new HD-codecs.

2. You let the player do the decoding. In this case you connect the player with HDMI-cable and the output from the player is digital PCM-sound. In this case the player decode the sound but the AMP will do all the bass management, room compensation and so on. The AMP will make the D/A, which means that it convert the digital pcm-sound to analog so we get sound in our speakers. In this case you just need an AMP that support HDMI 1.1 or higher and of course the AMP does not need to have the ability to decode the HD-sound. It is important that the AMP support Multichannel PCM. (Beosystem 3 supports this, and this is the way how we are going to enjoy full DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD-sound).

3. You let the player do ALL the decoding. This means that you let the player decode the HD-codecs and make the D/A conversion and also bass management, room compensation and so on. In this case you connect 6 analog cables from the player to the AMP. You dont use the HDMI-cable for sound, just for the picture. (You put HDMI-sound in the player to "Off"). Beosystem 3 does not have 5.1 analog inputs.

So if you have Beosystem 3 (and BV7-40 Mark III) then you can enjoy Dolby true HD and DTS-HD if you buy a Bluray-player which can make the decoding. Then you feed the Beosystem 3 with digital PCM-sound (decoded sound) and BS3 make the rest of the work. One more thing: BS3 use HDMI 1.1 but it will not matter when you feed the HDMI-cable with already decoded sound (PCM).  HDMI 1.3 is only important when you feed an amplifier with Bitstream-signal (not decoded sound). In this case the amplifier must have the ability to decode the codecs.

We dont have to argue anymore in this thread about if BS3 supports the new HD-codecs or Multichannel-PCM and so on. What I describe in this thread is what BS3 really can do.

I hope this sort things out in this thread once and for all!

Regards
Martin

martin01:

(Beosystem 3 supports this, and this is the way how we are going to enjoy full DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD-sound).

I'm glad you're able to overrule what B&O told me. I feel far more reassured.

martin01:

Alright guys, time to sort things out again:

1. The question about if Beosystem 3 support Multichannel PCM 96khz/24bit: YES, it support this. I have talked to a person at B&O who works with this and he confirms that BS3 support this. This DOES NOT mean that BS3 will decode the HD-codecs.

I repeat what I wrote erlier in this thread:

You have three choices to decode Dolby True HD and DTS-HD:

1. You send Bitstream (not decoded signal) from the player to the amp. In this case the amp will make ALL the decoding and bass management and roomcompensation and so on. In this case you need a player that support HDMI 1.3 and an Amp that support HDMI 1.3. Of course you need an AMP that can decode the new codecs. You connect the two devices with HDMI-cable (1.3 certified). Beosystem 3 does NOT decode the the new HD-codecs.

2. You let the player do the decoding. In this case you connect the player with HDMI-cable and the output from the player is digital PCM-sound. In this case the player decode the sound but the AMP will do all the bass management, room compensation and so on. The AMP will make the D/A, which means that it convert the digital pcm-sound to analog so we get sound in our speakers. In this case you just need an AMP that support HDMI 1.1 or higher and of course the AMP does not need to have the ability to decode the HD-sound. It is important that the AMP support Multichannel PCM. (Beosystem 3 supports this, and this is the way how we are going to enjoy full DolbyTrue HD and DTS-HD-sound).

3. You let the player do ALL the decoding. This means that you let the player decode the HD-codecs and make the D/A conversion and also bass management, room compensation and so on. In this case you connect 6 analog cables from the player to the AMP. You dont use the HDMI-cable for sound, just for the picture. (You put HDMI-sound in the player to "Off"). Beosystem 3 does not have 5.1 analog inputs.

So if you have Beosystem 3 (and BV7-40 Mark III) then you can enjoy Dolby true HD and DTS-HD if you buy a Bluray-player which can make the decoding. Then you feed the Beosystem 3 with digital PCM-sound (decoded sound) and BS3 make the rest of the work. One more thing: BS3 use HDMI 1.1 but it will not matter when you feed the HDMI-cable with already decoded sound (PCM).  HDMI 1.3 is only important when you feed an amplifier with Bitstream-signal (not decoded sound). In this case the amplifier must have the ability to decode the codecs.

We dont have to argue anymore in this thread about if BS3 supports the new HD-codecs or Multichannel-PCM and so on. What I describe in this thread is what BS3 really can do.

I hope this sort things out in this thread once and for all!

Regards
Martin

It does not sort it out at all.

My question to B&O-

Is the BS3 capable of HD audio output in anyway, taking into account that a product connected to it may have internal decoding of HD audio and is HDMI 1.3 compliant. Will it support any HD audio.

Answer.

At this time the BS3 does not support HD audio. It will not output HD audio irrespective of a connected source.

What more does one need, and now we have another reply from B&O saying the same thing. In order to know what the product is capable of one needs to get the manufacturer involved.

 

 

 

Once again Martin excellent post. Soundproof, your comment abut the sample rate is the first explanation that makes sense as to why the BS3 may not support Dolby TrueHD  Thank You.

However, I just looked at my Blu-Ray copy of National Treasure 2. Printed on the label is the following:English Dolby TrueHD(48kHz/24bit). Playing the uncompressed PCM track from a Blu-Ray produces a display on the BV7 screen under "Sound System" that says "48kHz." Exactly the same rate that is listed on the cover to a Blu-Ray disc. I can not see what the sample rate is for this particular disc as my current player does not decode Dolby TrueHD, but when I put another Blu-Ray in with an uncompressed PCM track I get the 48kHz display in the BV7s menu, not the Blu-Ray's menu. So, if Dolby TrueHD is at 48kHz and the BV7 indicates it can and is outputting 48kHz?..

Here is another article explaining the matter for those who care to read plus it has a short discussion of the sample rate. 

HDMI Audio Transmission for Blu-ray and HD DVD — Reviews and News from Audioho

Anybody know of a Blu-Ray that contains an uncompressed PCM track higher than 48kHz such as 96kHz or 192kHz? I would like to try one out and see what the BV7 displays