Hello TripEnglish.

Looks like I just opened a can of worms with my previous post. Well just for starters, the Beolab 5s aren't fully DSP optimized for in-room listening. Because only the bass is roughly attenuated according to the listening environment , the mids and highs are practically left untouched, and thus not having the smoothest in room response. There are many DSP calibrating systems out there that are quite affordable actually, DEQX and Tact just to name the more recognized ones. To my knowledge Genelec and JmLab have introduced self calibrating DSP loudspeakers through the use of a computer and a microphone. And affordable complete solutions have been introduced by NHT a few years back and more recently Emerald Physics. I was simply suggesting that the Beolab 5s isn't harnessing the it's full DSP potential. Also FYI, because DSP and multiple amplification are involved the problems arising from amplifier and loudspeaker mismatch can be said to be relatively insignificant and can be tuned according to tastes and preferences. 

wonderfulelectric:

Hello Soundproof. 

Beolab 5s were groundbreaking when it just came out but with the lack of software oriented DSP to keep up with the current times, it is actually starting to lose out. Now you can get better than Beolab5s in room frequency response by just getting a high-surround processor or a DSP. Having said that Beolab5s are still incredible value but just not one of the best in its class. 

You're missing the point, I think.

If you want to perform full frequency band DSP and room-correction, you can still do that with a pair of BL5s at the end of the chain - it's not the automatic room calibration that makes these speakers superior. At any rate, it only affects the range from 12Hz to 400Hz. 

The uniqueness of these speakers is due to a number of reasons.

1. The acoustic lenses. To get anything similar, you have to look at designs from Bolzano-Villetri or MBL, and you're then looking at a tripling of your budget to get similar sound (not better sound, similar.)

2. The four-way design, with the unique bass delivery and the homogeneity of dispersion of mid and top. Yesterday, I had an electrical engineer and loudspeaker co-developer visit for a first listen to BeoLab 5s. He was astonished at the power response, the flatness of the frequency response and at the stability of the extremely detailed soundstage.

These speakers deliver with a calibrated Sound Pressure Level within 0,25dB through the range - there aren't any other speakers on the market that are close to that. And they are upgradeable, with both software and firmware, should the need present itself.

The unique performance is a function of the dispersion characteristic and the very sophisticated timing and feedback processing with active monitoring of individual drivers, to ensure a precision that is quite unique when it comes to delivery.

As I've mentioned you'll find that Meridian is doing some sophisticated work with their top of the range active speakers, but you can do the same with BL5 with a variety of DSP options. Check out DEQX for one alternative.

3. If you want more sophisticated DSP, then just buy it, and connect it between your source and the speakers. You still get the benefit of what the BL5s are the only ones capable of.

4. There is one area where the BL5s may need modification. We're beginning to see sources in resolutions well in excess of CD (16bit/44.1kHz)

BL5s upsample analog or digital signals they receive to 24/96, and then pass that on for processing and final 32/192kHz DAC conversion before amplification. I may not be using them right, but I've not been able to get them to accept bitstreams in excess of 24/96 without suddenly getting dropouts. This means that you'll have to use them in analog mode - that is, feed them a converted analog signal. I've been testing - and this works out quite well - though I can imagine that a future version of the BL5s might be given the ability to natively process higher resolutions, up to 24/192kHz or even higher.

5. Since 98% of the world's speakers are built according to principles that were in use in the 1920s, I think the BL5s still have a way to go before we're ready to consign them to the scrapheap! 

6. The founder of 2L, who is working with full resolution recording of music, and whose Blu-ray release Divertimenti is creating a furore in the audiophile world, came for a listen to my BL5s, and he was quite pleased with what he heard. He had a recommendation, as he suspected that something could be gained by adding a fifth driver - a supertweeter working above 20kHz - to the speakers. It was his experience that such supertweeters assisted the stability of the high frequencies in the audible range (up to 20kHz) and that this modification might provide icing on the cake when playing high-resolution files through the speakers. (See this month's Stereophile for their initial reaction to Divertimenti.)

It's quite a nice test to have someone who has recorded the music, and mixed it, come and listen to it on a pair of speakers ... (One comment that may surprise some was that he would like them to be even sharper in the top, above 6000Hz, in order to be true. You often hear people "complain" that BL5s are too sharp.)

I'm certain we'll see modifications in speaker designs and in how we control the frequencies produced by speakers, now that DSP is becoming more accessible and better understood -- while storage space is cheaper and studios are equipping themselves for working in the highest possible resolutions -- but I'm also certain that my BL5s will stay in my listening rooms for many years to come.

Maybe the next speakers (not actually next, but probably 2-3 releases out) might deal with some of these issues. Maybe.

I thought they were upgradeable?!

When you adjust for sound pressure level from an analog source and a digital source (ensuring that what you hear from the BL5s through digi-coax and analog line-in have the same weight/sound level) then it's really hard to tell the two apart. Trust me - I have tried and tried -- the reason one initially thinks that the digi-feed is better is because it comes out significantly louder than the analog signal.

This means that you can convert a high-resolution audio file (32bit/384kHz if you want) from digital to analog, and then feed it to the BL5s. The fact that the BL5s perform their own processing on that signal does not mean that it becomes degraded - it's just passed on through the signal chain.

 

Oh yeah. I have not thought of putting a DSP before the Beolab 5s. I have to admit that the Beolab 5s are super cool but will love to see it built to "high-end" standards. Hope that the newer versions will have a full band microphone calibration system and better digital processing when I am ready to get them. But looking at how B&O is moving I will need to wait for a lifetime. BTW I don't think that a super tweeter will be suitable to go with current Ice powered amplifiers, see they distort too much at the higher range, they might fry the tweeters or something.

However, a diamond tweeter or one of those fancy spherical tweeters from murata will sure be welcomed as a replacement for the current fabric dome. I don't really like the idea of supertweeters, they just look so odd, like they throw the loudspeaker aesthetic design off balance. Check out the latest standmount speakers from Wilson Benesch, it looks like a third eye. Sigh... I will really like to see more active and digital loudspeakers designs out there, the lack of built-in amplifications for WIlson Benesch loudspeakers made me settle for the ATCs instead. The ATC 20s just doesn't look and feel as glamorous or high end. Actives just sound more clean as compared to passive loudspeakers. 

 

You know, I wish people would just step back and read what they have written. The last few threads here sound just like a jumped hi-fi mag. "wish there was berylum-krypton hyper-tweeters etc..." (so bats lose their way)......."wish there was extra Deep Blue DSP processing"  (so it sounds better if I want to listen in an obscure corner of the house and really listen to 1000% more DAC sampling rate and crack a few spy codes while im at it)........get the computer here, get one there.....mic here, mic there, sound absorbing material here......the list goes on and on and we haven't yet even started on cables.

 

The Meridian DSP 8000's are £30,000 and each is as big as my fridge (and twice as glossy). Add more complication, exotic materials and inevitably cost and we really will only be talking about a few individuals worldwide who will actually own some of these devices.

 

And be Sad.

 

The BL5's are class leading. They are simple to install. Simple to calibrate and do a "reasonably" good job of portraying music or sound for the average man with average listening capability in the average living room. We are not all funny folk who stink of wee and wear white lab coats and have big foreheads, oversized pinnas and have nothing.....nothing in their life except their hi-fi mag collection and a cat called "Miff". Some of us have a life outside gold terminations and spiky feet.

 

The BL5's are a ten grand active loudspeaker system and very few products out there are anywhere near them for the same for the money. Within a few more years, they will probably become one of the best selling true high-end loudspeakers of all time selling in their hundreds of thousands in number. Let's all stay in the real world and remember what most of us actually want in our homes.

 

10%

Yes, Mr. 10%, you are perfectly right. What astonishes me is how simple the BL5s are to use, and to what brilliant effect - and that's the point. I prefer sitting in my listening chair, enjoying the music, not tweaking about endlessly -- I like to use the analogy of being the guest in a Michelin restaurant, instead of toiling away in its kitchen!

Alex:

BeoLab 3s and 9 look just like other hifi? Spot the odd one out:

Yes if you pick the prettiest red BL9 and the ugliest wooden HI-fi...

Here are the speakers I was considering, before settling on BeoLab 5.

 

 

But look at all the unnecessary hardware - compared to this:

 

 

Eargh! It doesn't matter how good they'd sound! LOL

Totally. B&O still has the chicest designs ever. I don't really care for the Beosound series though except for the Beocenter 2 and the Beosound 4. 

Hey Mr10precent. Do you know how many pairs of the Beolab5s are sold already? Just curious. I recently read that the Wilson audio's Watt/Puppy is the best selling high end loudspeaker of all time despite it looking quite repulsive. Never in my lifetime will I buy that. However, I do suspect that Meridian is gaining popularity with the masses though, I saw their products featured in quite a few movies in the current yrs already. Meridian isn't that bad, their electronics can be set up with little fuss like B&Os if you go for the digital route. Speaking of which Merdidian should really consider upgrading their flagship DSP8000s, they are getting more outdated than the Beolab5s. 

I agree too with Mr 10%.

At the end, the cost of a pair of BL5's are not so expensive compare to the amount of money one would have to spend on an audiophile audio system.

At the opposite of a set of BL5's, an audiophile will have to purchase the hardware to run his expensive loudspeakers (amplificator, audio cable, mains multiplier, special cable power cord, etc..).

As a beofan, I will take care about my loudspeakers' home integration and its design (nice way too, to considerate the Woman Acceptance Factor)

Meantime I realize that brands like Meridian, Velodyn (subwoofer) for example are producing great products too.

Just my two cents,

Guy

 

I agree with Mr10Percent. To paraphrase Apple: "Beolab 5 - the high-end loudspeaker for the rest of us"

Dave:

Yes if you pick the prettiest red BL9 and the ugliest wooden HI-fi...

I actually really like the new B&W 68x series, considering it's just a wooden box. Right hand speaker with two kevlar drivers...

RE scanning higher frequencies...

This generally would yield no benefits in most rooms, due to the short wavelength of higher frequency sound resulting in a number of acoustic problems/issues anyway.

Firstly, high frequencies are very easily absorbed, and in fact you'll find most rooms have a very linear response above around 1 kHz anyway. On average, curtains are at least 2 cm thick, generally a little more, and also tend to be another 2 or so cm from the wall, resulting in a surface which can absorb sound down to a relatively low frequency, and also of a relatively high bandwidth. It's only once you get below ~400 Hz when you start to get issues with standing waves and constructive/destructive interference in most lounges, and this is where the BeoLab 5's ABL has reached it's upper frequency.

Secondly, if there is any unevenness in the room, it will be very localised at higher frequencies. As a result, the other systems you mention are very dependent on the listening position, to within a few cm, with movements of a small amount resulting in big changes which can produce an entirely different sound.

The BeoLab 5s depend more on their incredible dispersion than any DSP when it comes to controlling HF. Bass is impossible to control, even the best PA speakers (which are all about dispersion) can't control the dispersion of sound well below 400 Hz, so DSPs are more suited here. At higher frequencies however, sound is easier to control with horns, which are a more suitable solution to room acoustics. Most reflections come off the ceiling anyway, and the BeoLab 5 controls this better than any other system on the market (although I haven't seen isobar plots for them, it's quite obvious when you're listening).

Guys, I'm not trying to be a mod or anything, but can we keep the discussion relevant to the topic - new products 2008/2009. I keep checking this thread for discussion on new products and it's become a top-end technical discussion on the BL5!

Good call. Maybe a moderator could split it?

A split is a good idea, this is all very fascinating fellas

I've PMd Peter, hopefully he or one of the other mods can wave their magic wand and make things happen...

Hi all!  

Tried splitting it but not as easy as it seems - just lost 3 posts - apologies - they are, like the truth, somewhere out there! I suggest we leave alone or get someone clever like Keith to do it rather than this idiot!

I hate these Beolab 5 threads - I will end up buying some if you lot keep on! 

Mr10Percent:

 

We are not all funny folk who stink of wee and wear white lab coats and have big foreheads, oversized pinnas and have nothing.....nothing in their life except their hi-fi mag collection and a cat called "Miff".

10%

You have been spying on me again, haven't you? 

Mr10Percent:

 

We are not all funny folk who stink of wee and wear white lab coats and have big foreheads, oversized pinnas and have nothing.....nothing in their life except their hi-fi mag collection and a cat called "Miff".

10%

 

I wish it to be on the record that my cat's name is 'Kismet'.

 

I feel so much better....

 

 

I can't wait to see a white BeoVision 9. 

 

Dave Moulton:

Hi all!  

This is a pretty good thread in regard to the BeoLab 5.  

Soundproof really has a good handle on the BL5's virtues, and yes, it is directly competitive in many respects with the best "audiophile" speakers available.  I can share with you that the development project leading to the BeoLab 5 was driven by (a) the accumulation of knoweldge and technology by the Acoustics Department at B&O and their Perceptual Research program as well, and (b) the perceived need to re-establish the B&O brand as a technologial leader.  

I am interested to see that, five years after the introduction of the BL5, no competitors have introducd speakers to directly compete with its feature set.  FWIW, sales of BL5s have been remarkably good, and stable – far beyond the quantities of "audiophile" speakers usually sold at these price points.  

Thanks for listening.

Dave

None of this surprises me at all. MASSIVE achievement. MASSIVE. These speakers are going to sell longer than the 8000's i predict. Decades maybe even! Think about it...

I look forward to the tweaking B&O will do to them over the years e.g colours, styles etc