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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-31-2010 12:40 PM by Doctor. 97 replies.
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  • 12-30-2010 3:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I am very pleased to say that I am not a post modernist - I believe in logic and science, and I believe Electrified argues from a logical standpoint that is easy to understand. Not very pretty, mind you, and not prone to taking prisoners. Perhaps my more genteel approach might be seen to have some advantages?

    Either way, I am pleased that the general consensus would seem to be that the Beosound 8 is a reasonable attempt at a dock but one that our resident designer, Tomaz, could improve upon. I confess to agreeing with Trip that the ALT lens on the BV9 did nothing for me and I would actually have it behind the grille! Equally, I like the speaker design of the BS8 as it is, but can see the attraction of the ALT technology. Maybe the lower half of the speaker could be grille, and the upper half recessed with the ALT lens forming a semi-circle to mirror the shape below. I would attempt a drawing but lack Tomaz's immense skill so will not embarrass myself!

  • 12-30-2010 6:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Would that be the same medical sciences Peter that relied on patronage and old boy networks for so many years? The tradition of scientific enquiry that was based on the entry criteria of 'what medical school did your father attend' is defunct, outmoded, invalid and repugnant. Hardly logical (or at the very basest, meritocratic).

    Many doctors would be well informed by a study of the arts or social sciences. At the very least they would learn that inane platitudes are no substitute for a reasoned discourse.

    For those who hide their professional backgrounds, I speak as a social scientist who is halfway through a medical degree, following a successful career as a Civil Servant. Adherents to the traditional English academic discourse of reasoned argument and debate are clearly not welcome here.

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 12-30-2010 7:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Nice design Tomaz.

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-31-2010 3:33 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    (back to the subject - Beosound 8)

    Yes tomaz, very nice details.

    It sort of reminds me of the Beomaster 1200 I had - solid brushed aluminium. (I paid £3 for it at a jumble sale and another £3 for a pair of Beovox 1702s)

    If the back is as good as the front then it's a great piece of work. The Beosound 8 looks very plastiky though I haven't seen it in the flesh

  • 12-31-2010 4:08 AM In reply to

    • Opman
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    ojibway:

    (back to the subject - Beosound 8)

    I don't feel able to contribute much to this thread about "post modernist stuff". I'll just wait until somebody asks how to option programme a BeoSound8 Whistle

    Opman

  • 12-31-2010 4:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Tomaz, that looks very cool!

    A nice clean design. 

    What I would change is the bass drivers to be bigger, and maybe function with or without the ALT lens on a co-axial basis. 

    For example ELAC, a german loudspeaker manufacturer has made a pretty advanced co-axial driver, although it's only treble and mid-range, but co-axial drivers with large bass drivers, are on the other hand nothing new. But ELAC's take on it looks a bit different than the norm.

     

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-31-2010 4:26 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    j0hnbarker:
    Would that be the same medical sciences Peter that relied on patronage and old boy networks for so many years? The tradition of scientific enquiry that was based on the entry criteria of 'what medical school did your father attend' is defunct, outmoded, invalid and repugnant. Hardly logical (or at the very basest, meritocratic).Many doctors would be well informed by a study of the arts or social sciences. At the very least they would learn that inane platitudes are no substitute for a reasoned discourse. For those who hide their professional backgrounds, I speak as a social scientist who is halfway through a medical degree, following a successful career as a Civil Servant. Adherents to the traditional English academic discourse of reasoned argument and debate are clearly not welcome here.

     

     I think the present day intake bears no resemblance to the caricature that you paint - as far as I can see, medical students are chosen on merit and ability. One of those abilities is surely to show empathy and kindness to people who can be distressed. Sometimes it has to be said that the selection of candidates just on academic qualifications would seem to chose completely the wrong people, though they do seem to gravitate to research posts.

    The fact that many doctors come from a medical background is usually because they can see the attraction of a medical career and the huge amount of benefit they can give to society. Until recently, the NHS was not a particularly lucrative career. Most of my contemporaries from school entered the City and have long since retired. I am proud to say that I do come from a very medical background - my grandfather was a renowned surgeon as well as a founder of the socialist surgical society. He concentrated his work in Ancoats rather than London, despite opportunities, simply as he felt he was doing more for poorer people. My father was also a surgeon and I work in a deprived area quite deliberately.

    I help teach medical students, and registrars and come across a wide variety of excellent doctors from all classes. I do however still miss the old type of medicine with real continuity of care unlike the shift system that operates today. I still offer all my cancer patients 24 hour cover as do many of the 'old school' GPs. Maybe there were faults in the old system, but medicine was seen as a vocation rather than a career. I may be old fashioned but I know I offer a good standard of care that is appreciated by my patients.

    I certainly avoid trying to upset people on this forum so do not post inflammatory statements, so apologise if you feel my input comprises mainly 'inane platitudes'. As a moderator, I have to be able to see all sides of an argument and to facilitate threads.

  • 12-31-2010 5:33 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Stan:

    Electrified:

    given that Trip want any negative discussion to cease, because it might cost him on the bottom line. You don't see a problem with that, but me being private, uh, oh, the horror!

    Trip didn't say this.  I believe his call was for more constructive criticism, less "I don't like it because it's stupid". 

    All the while not even trying to hold himself up to that standard. That amounts to attempting to stifle criticism.

    Stan:
    What's that strawman fallacy you keep railing about?  Pot, meet kettle...

    That's not a strawman. It doesn't matter if he claims that he's not trying to stop any criticism when the entire sentiment is an attempt to do so. It's like saying "I'm not a racist, [followed by a racist remark]". I need to say, I'm not likening Trip's position with racism, just to be clear, but it doesn't matter that he hides his position behind the disclaimer that it's "merely" a request for more arguing one's position. Especially not since he doesn't even try to live up to it himself.

    Further, to have his supporter J0hnBarker back Trip's position up with a denouncement of reason, logic and basic sense, doesn't actually help the argument, does it? I mean, it's one thing to argue that one should back up one's claim, but if you then don't do it yourself, and then end up in a corner where the only pseudo argument is that reason and logic is a logical fallacy in it's own right speaks volumes.

    The discussion in this thread is evident of such behaviour, especially if you read the Beoworld in decline-thread for context.

     

     

     

     

  • 12-31-2010 6:27 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I'd love to know what the relevance is here to the Beosound 8 that was the subject of discussion.


    Maybe you should be on a Medical Forum?

  • 12-31-2010 6:42 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    ojibway:

    I'd love to know what the relevance is here to the Beosound 8 that was the subject of discussion.


    Maybe you should be on a Medical Forum?

    A little larger, and your point would have been so much better ...

     

    Seriously, though, go back and read page one, and you will notice how Trip was the main instigator of these parallel discussions. Especially his facepalm jesus was great and really carried a lot of meaning pertaining to the Beosound 8 Geeked

     

     

  • 12-31-2010 7:16 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    ojibway:

    I'd love to know what the relevance is here to the Beosound 8 that was the subject of discussion.


    Maybe you should be on a Medical Forum?

    In my view, little relevance. I was merely replying to a statement directed at me.

    On the subject of the design on the BS8, I think is is a reasonable take on an iPod dock. It is limited by its very premise in that stereo separation will always be poor, but making it wider would be silly. For those wanting a more acceptable hi-fi solution, a docking station attached to a normal music system would be preferable. Indeed, i use such a system myself at times, though my Beoport linked into my home system actually fulfils a similar role. I do have another make iPod dock which resides in the kitchen - I have never linked this room as it is a later addition to the house and the walls are rather thick, making wireless less than useful and putting me off drilling holes. It must a good few years old and comprises two rectangular two way speakers with a bar in between. Not very beautiful, but functional. It does however let me listen to music and choose from almost anything (I use a 160Gb iPod). I would have bought a B&O one no doubt if it had been available but made do with this. The BS8 would not actually fit in the designated area so will not be a candidate for this room.

    I also confess to seeing less point in an iPod dock now as I would prefer to stream music wirelessly from the iPod so that it was to hand rather than on the other side of the room. This would also allow a rather more exciting design unconstrained by the need to incorporate the iPod in the device. I do actually now have an iPad as well but cannot see this really as a music device alone, to be placed in a dock.

    Going off on another tangent, I do like your avatar! Is it your own design?

     

  • 12-31-2010 7:41 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Doctor:

    I also confess to seeing less point in an iPod dock now as I would prefer to stream music wirelessly from the iPod so that it was to hand rather than on the other side of the room. This would also allow a rather more exciting design unconstrained by the need to incorporate the iPod in the device. I do actually now have an iPad as well but cannot see this really as a music device alone, to be placed in a dock.

    Going off on another tangent, I do like your avatar! Is it your own design?

    Yes Doc

    it would offer a more exciting design if it weren't constrained by the need to dock an iThingy. Do you like the ideas offered by Tomaz? Do you appreciate the design aesthetics that are normally associated with B&O? Do you think the Beosound 8 falls within or outside the B&O aesthetic criteria or expectations?

    The logo I use is from a painting by Norval Morrisseau, a Canadian Indian artist (who died in 2007) Our paths crossed in 1967 - http://norvalmorrisseau.blogspot.com/

  • 12-31-2010 7:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I think the design by Tomaz makes the device more interesting - the incorporation of a screen allows feedback without the iThingy! - but it is just an adaptation of an iDock design. I am sure if given a blank sheet, Tomaz would come up with something rather more interesting if possibly less to the liking of the company accountants!

    If I have a problem with the BS8, it is its lack of design cues with the other products in the portfolio. The control interface differs from that of the other current products. I expect an entry level product to encourage one to go on by letting one sample the delights of the range. For instance, the Beomaster 1500 was an entry level receiver but shared the same basic design as the top of the range 4400. The problem with the BS8 is the reliance on another company's iThingy which of course pollutes the design ethos of B&O. But unfortunately, if you make an iPod dock, that is really your lot. The sound quality does reach my expectations for a B&O product; the design is an acceptable take on an iPod dock but not a B&O classic.

  • 12-31-2010 9:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I'm surprised nobody has yet compared the Beosound 8 to the products by GenevaLab. As I have never seen nor heard either, I'm fully qualified to do that now.

    Going to http://www.genevalab.com/ , I can note the following points:

    • I think I've seen the "display visible through a perforated front grille" idea before somewhere
    • I think I've seen the modernized trumpet stand idea somewhere before as well
    • ...if the Beosound 8 would have been designed to look like a B&O product, it would've probably been accused of plagiarizing the Geneva.

    Also:

    • The Genevas are priced outrageously (except the S model, which just by looking at the driver specs must sound a lot weaker than BS8 - note that the stands are also extra and not contained in the base price)
    • Wonder what the stereo imaging in those is like?
    • ...and they wont' take an iPad.

    But:

    • The motorized dock would be very much B&O's domain and looks indefinitely better than the silly paddle on top of the BS8 while nothing is docked
    • They have a CD player, which is great
    • They have an FM radio - also great - but with six presets? Confused

    As noted, I have no idea of the sound quality. The (very expensive) bigger models look like they would pack a punch, though.

    Wonder how much Swiss component level assembly they contain...

    -mika

  • 12-31-2010 9:31 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    tournedos:

    I'm surprised nobody has yet compared the Beosound 8 to the products by GenevaLab. As I have never seen nor heard either, I'm fully qualified to do that now.

    Going to http://www.genevalab.com/ , I can note the following points:

    • I think I've seen the "display visible through a perforated front grille" idea before somewhere
    • I think I've seen the modernized trumpet stand idea somewhere before as well
    • ...if the Beosound 8 would have been designed to look like a B&O product, it would've probably been accused of plagiarizing the Geneva.

    Also:

    • The Genevas are priced outrageously (except the S model, which just by looking at the driver specs must sound a lot weaker than BS8 - note that the stands are also extra and not contained in the base price)
    • Wonder what the stereo imaging in those is like?
    • ...and they wont' take an iPad.

    But:

    • The motorized dock would be very much B&O's domain and looks indefinitely better than the silly paddle on top of the BS8 while nothing is docked
    • They have a CD player, which is great
    • They have an FM radio - also great - but with six presets? Confused

    As noted, I have no idea of the sound quality. The (very expensive) bigger models look like they would pack a punch, though.

    Wonder how much Swiss component level assembly they contain...

    Hmmm. Hmm

    Nov 13 - 9.02

    The Australian Macworld review/ first impressions.

    "B&O seems to be quite a polarising brand. You either love its products because of their quality and design, or deride them for their high prices. Well, with the BeoSound 8’s reasonable price there’s now no reason not to love it. Sure, $A1490 is still a lot of money for most of us, but it’s a good price for this beautiful system."

    They make a comparison with the Genevasound. If first looks count, then the opinion of those who don't like the BS8 appearance might change after looking at this awful looking dock!

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-31-2010 10:12 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    My dealer has had these in the showroom for quite some time. Not keen myself - there are a few designs quite similar.

  • 12-31-2010 10:24 AM In reply to

    • Henry
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Me thinks there are one or two people here who are just a teeny weeny too far up their own bottoms?!

  • 12-31-2010 10:26 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Yup, I've seen them too. I first saw them just after Apple's own "HiFi" boom box came out, but they seem to still be selling those Genevas around here.

    Anyway, just because there's something is much worse out there, doesn't make the BS8 suddenly become excellent design. In other words, just because McDonald's is worse junk food than Burger King's, doesn't mean that Burger King then deserves a mention in the Michelin guide.

     

  • 12-31-2010 11:45 AM In reply to

    • Henry
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I rest my case, m'lud;)

     

  • 12-31-2010 11:52 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

     

    He he, I can't help but think of a prosecutor going to court, extending his finger, pointing to the accused, then pronounce:

     

    Henry:

    I rest my case, m'lud;)

     

    Not much of a case was made, was there.

     

     

     

     

     

  • 12-31-2010 11:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    It does seem though, that there is a general agreement that maybe B&O should have thought beyond the 'dock' because, as has been noted by several people -

    do you really want to leave your iPhone ringing away up there, or you desperately need to see if you've received any texts and, of course, all those thousands of aps just sitting there waiting to be used?

    B&O just missed the opportunity to be ahead of the game with this 'dock'. Instead they are going to have to catch up quick which means the Beosound 8 will be obsolete if it isn't already.

    As I said before, if it's purely to play music then it should have come equipped with a few gigs of memory into which you could load all you music and then go play with your iThingy.

    But it's the look of the Beosound 8 that first caught my attention. It does not make my jaw drop. And from the B&O stable, it should.

    I didn't know B&O did 'entry level' stuff. That's a bit patronising, isn't it? If you want to experience B&O without the huge outlay buy a used system. I've had quite a few from the Teena and Beolit 702, to the Beocentre 5000 with Beovox S80s. I've owned them so I could have them to hold and handle and gaze upon and to listen to as well. Beautiful designs need to be handled in my opinion.

     

  • 12-31-2010 12:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Despite a few bumps in the road, I like where the discussion is going.

    Tomaz, I saw that you added some details to your design in a previous post, specifically that the design maximizes the distance between the two speakers. Taking that a step further I have to wonder whether a "high-end mini-system" isn't a contradiction in terms. 

    While there are some great sounding small systems out there, you do seem to pass a threshold beyond which the mere ability to move and separate the speakers allows for a significant improvement. I'd say that this is the case for the BeoSound 8, whose speakers, if detachable, could "stretch their legs" so to speak. 

    So, if you're a designer charged with putting together a small system, be it iPod/AirPlay/or whatever-driven, can you really make a single chassis design after a certain investment in the quality of the internal parts without pulling the quality back down? It seems to me that docks and small systems in the cheaper range (say under $500us to be somewhat arbitrary) can sound fine, but as you move toward the $1k mark I find myself wondering how it would sound if I could snap it apart and separate the speakers.

    Thoughts?

    (I apologize for any straw-men or herrings of any color inadvertently peppered into this post)

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-31-2010 12:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    ojibway:

     

    I didn't know B&O did 'entry level' stuff. That's a bit patronising, isn't it? If you want to experience B&O without the huge outlay buy a used system. I've had quite a few from the Teena and Beolit 702, to the Beocentre 5000 with Beovox S80s. I've owned them so I could have them to hold and handle and gaze upon and to listen to as well. Beautiful designs need to be handled in my opinion.

     

    B&O have done many systems that could be described as entry level - I certainly don't mean to be patronising though. Some people do not want the power or expense of the top specified system. I, for one, am not likely to invest in Beolab 5s. I like them but I simply would not be able to justify them for the use they would get. I am also unlikely to get a huge TV - 42" is quite enough. After that I would get a projector.

    The BV8 could be regarded as an entry level TV, but it still has many of the qualities of the larger sets.

    I agree about buying vintage equipment - I have owned a fair amount in my time, though most has been redistributed now! I agree about the handling though. The Beocenter 9500 in particular is not seen at its best till actually touched.

     

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