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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-31-2010 12:40 PM by Doctor. 97 replies.
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  • 12-28-2010 6:49 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I do understand the question of proportion; but 20 years ago, the size of a cassette and CD were fixed by the industry, designing around them was simplified compared to the minimum requirement here.  How does one deal with 2nd Gen Nanos, iPhones and iPads all at once?  Perhaps the best answer is not to.

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-28-2010 6:49 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:

    Nice pull Trip!

     

    I was in the shop today and heard a remark made by a shopper that the BS-8 reminded him of the original BeoSystem 2500.  Having stumbled onto this thread, I am forced to agree with that anonymous commenter, and Trip.

    Consider that the singular shock of the 2500's design was to present all of the sources, and the speakers in a direct, visible, self explanatory manner so that anyone with any tech-awareness at all could walk up to it and rather immediately guess its main capabilities.  The signature distinction was, and remains, the vertical orientation of the CD drive, so that it is visible, and moreover apparent.

    Consider now the BS-8 with the 30-pin socket.  What could be more readily apparent?  To Trip's point, what else is needed, or missing?

    If people were bitching about something missing, or something more was needed, yes, you might have had a point. Apparently Trip-E succeeded in his little rhetorical maneuvre.

     

     

  • 12-28-2010 6:51 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:

    I do understand the question of proportion; but 20 years ago, the size of a cassette and CD were fixed by the industry, designing around them was simplified compared to the minimum requirement here.  How does one deal with 2nd Gen Nanos, iPhones and iPads all at once?  Perhaps the best answer is not to.

    This I think might be spot on. I think it's very hard to come up with a design that works with it all. In fact, perhaps a separate stand and a cylinder as their linkroom speaker might have been nicer.

    But then again, two active speakers with an aux input and a volume control would to the job.

     

     

  • 12-28-2010 6:55 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:

    TripEnglish:

    Nice pull Trip!

     

    I was in the shop today and heard a remark made by a shopper that the BS-8 reminded him of the original BeoSystem 2500.  Having stumbled onto this thread, I am forced to agree with that anonymous commenter, and Trip.

    Consider that the singular shock of the 2500's design was to present all of the sources, and the speakers in a direct, visible, self explanatory manner so that anyone with any tech-awareness at all could walk up to it and rather immediately guess its main capabilities.  The signature distinction was, and remains, the vertical orientation of the CD drive, so that it is visible, and moreover apparent.

    Consider now the BS-8 with the 30-pin socket.  What could be more readily apparent?  To Trip's point, what else is needed, or missing?

    As I've said elsewhere, I haven't yet seen it in the flesh and so will refrain from direct comment. I would agree with Russ that the 2500 (or the Century) had similar benefits and the same issue (speaking of the stereo seperation), however no other iPod dock addresses this issue any better than the BS8, and mostly (all?) are a lot worse. All reports I've heard are of a better than expected audio performance.

    My only concern (again given that I have not seen it in the flesh) is that I fear it suits an iPad better than an iPhone or iPod Classic, not to mention a Nano, which I fear will look completely out of place. Still, I'm willing to change my mind when I see it (hopefully beforethe holidays are out).

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-28-2010 7:01 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Electrified:

     

    If people were bitching about something missing, or something more was needed, yes, you might have had a point. Apparently Trip-E succeeded in his little rhetorical maneuvre.

     

     

    Fair Enough, but there was a remark back a ways by Ojibway that the designers didn't finish the job, and we ran off with it.

     

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-28-2010 7:09 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:

    Electrified:

     

    If people were bitching about something missing, or something more was needed, yes, you might have had a point. Apparently Trip-E succeeded in his little rhetorical maneuvre.

     

     

    Fair Enough, but there was a remark back a ways by Ojibway that the designers didn't finish the job, and we ran off with it.

     

    That doesn't necessarily mean that something needs to be added. I can design a chair in ten seconds flat. Getting the proportions and details right, however, would take me a while, since it's easy to draw four legs a back rest and a set, yet quite difficult to make the proportions play well together without adding anything extraneous.

    A "half finished design job" doesn't imply that if he had finished the job he would have added to it.

     

    Edit:

    Btw, this is "my" perfect dining room chair - great to sit in, proportions are excellent, it's elegant, yet "rugged" because of the solid back rest, and the seat paper string plays well together with the wood, especially the oak version, and the perceived fragility of the paper plays well together with the narrow "attachment points":

     

    http://carlhansen.dk/dansk/galleri/ch36ch37/

    (the one with the armrests)

     

  • 12-28-2010 7:14 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Electrified:

    That doesn't necessarily mean that something needs to be added. I can design a chair in ten seconds flat. Getting the proportions and details right, however, would take me a while, since it's easy to draw four legs a back rest and a set, yet quite difficult to make the proportions play well together without adding anything extraneous.

    A "half finished design job" doesn't imply that if he had finished the job he would have added to it.

    What's that line?  "Two people, separated by a common language"?  Here in the States we refer to work as you describe as half-a$%d, not half-done.  Stick out tongue

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-28-2010 7:18 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:
    What's that line?  "Two people, separated by a common language"?  Here in the States we refer to work as you describe as half-a$%d, not half-done.  Stick out tongue

     

    LOL, well I think the difference being that a half-done design job is when we can see the "vision" of the designer, but also see that it didn't actually pan out as it could have.

    To me, a half-arsed product would translate into "a botched job".

    But that is my personal useage of it, and as I'm not a native English speaker, I won't swear that that is how English speakers use it. :)

     

  • 12-28-2010 7:21 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Electrified:

    Russ:
    What's that line?  "Two people, separated by a common language"?  Here in the States we refer to work as you describe as half-a$%d, not half-done.  Stick out tongue

     

    LOL, well I think the difference being that a half-done design job is when we can see the "vision" of the designer, but also see that it didn't actually pan out as it could have.

    To me, a half-arsed product would translate into "a botched job".

    But that is my personal useage of it, and as I'm not a native English speaker, I won't swear that that is how English speakers use it. :)

    Here in the American South that term would imply lazy, lackadaisical, or perhaps in our context here, uninspired.

     

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-28-2010 7:26 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Russ:
    Here in the American South that term would imply lazy, lackadaisical, or perhaps in our context here, uninspired.

    That covers it very well. A designer not finishing his job, would also fit perfectly with that Smile

     

     

    Had to look "lackadaisical" up, though, lol.

  • 12-28-2010 8:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I wasn't "maneuvering" at all. When it comes to rhetoric, I prefer to splash about. 

    I was simply prompting a more thorough critique from a poster who seemed to leave his opinion in far less complete a state than our industrial designers. For those not trained in ID, at college your work is subjected to critiques by instructors and classmates alike and you're required to defend all the decisions you made in developing the piece. 

    That being said, if someone were to offer a criticism like "it doesn't look finished" that person would be prompted to elaborate so that the meaning could be fully understood. So I'm wondering, in what way would the poster change the design? A different shape? Different materials? He refers to not getting the details right, which seems to imply that something has been left out or added extraneously. 

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-29-2010 12:00 AM In reply to

    • murcieme
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I don't mind the design at all.

    Granted, it doesn't make my jaw drop like the Beolab 8000's or the BeoCentre 2300, but it looks like what it is, a Bang & Olufsen iPod dock.  It doesn't quite have the look & feel of a proper B&O stereo because it's not a proper B&O stereo.  It's just an iPod dock, perhaps the worlds current best.  I don't think B&O is pretending it's anything but, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    I've listened to the thing at B&O Toronto and if you've been in that store you'll know it's quite a large open space. The BeoSound 8 filled the room!  I was highly impressed.  No, it didn't have the best bass I've ever heard, but for its size it was excellent.  For it's price . . . well, a smart shopper could likely find better sound, but that's usually the case with Bang & Olufsen money vs. separates anyway.

    For those looking for an upscale iPod dock, and where style AND sound are paramount, the BeoSound 8 is an excellent product which will be well worth its price to its target market.  People looking to replace a proper stereo, however, might be a little disappointed IMO.

    As for its design it does have to visually compete with two products of grossly different sizes.  I don't know how they could have resolved the design any better.

     

    mike

     

     

    Since 1977

  • 12-29-2010 3:37 AM In reply to

    • Michael
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    How can it be considered non B&O design.  It kinda reminds me of the Beo5/6.  A circle with an oblong on top.

    On the B&O site, the page for the Beo6 it says "Inspired by contradictions

    The square glass display with soft touch keys and the aluminium ball with tactile keys and a volume wheel are inspired by contradictions - the circle and the square, giving Beo6 an unusual visual expression."

    Isn't this what they were delivering on?

     
  • 12-29-2010 6:09 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    TripEnglish:

    I wasn't "maneuvering" at all. When it comes to rhetoric, I prefer to splash about. 

    I was simply prompting a more thorough critique from a poster who seemed to leave his opinion in far less complete a state than our industrial designers. For those not trained in ID, at college your work is subjected to critiques by instructors and classmates alike and you're required to defend all the decisions you made in developing the piece. 

    That being said, if someone were to offer a criticism like "it doesn't look finished" that person would be prompted to elaborate so that the meaning could be fully understood. So I'm wondering, in what way would the poster change the design? A different shape? Different materials? He refers to not getting the details right, which seems to imply that something has been left out or added extraneously. 

     

     

    to answer a few of your points -

    First of all, I agree that coming up with the design form is not easy. But once you have the initial idea, working out the details – and I'm talking 'visual details' in this case, is the really hard part. I know. I've been there.

    I was a designer and lecturer in design for some 25 years and a student for 5 years before that. (Silver/goldsmith and furniture designer) So, I have been on both ends of the 'critique', more so as a lecturer as I would always be expected justify my comments. Furthermore, simple geometric shapes – circles, squares, rectangles - have been the starting point in many of my designs.

    I cannot say what I would do to improve the current design - but

    If it were a student who presented this design to me I would tell him/her to go back and work on it some more. And that is what it needs. There is much more detail in the back of the BS8. The cones are nice especially with the brushed alu rims. I'm not too keen on the stepped bit though. Almost needs to be more subtle, in the same way that the front is too subtle! Maybe the speaker covers could have a very subtle convex to them (like my Zenith Royal 500D way back) to give them more substance or visual volume. And the joining element – I might bring it forward, level with the speakers which in turn, if convex, would create a nice distinction between the flat and the convex, a transition, if you like. But, hell, I'm not redesigning it!

    I agree with Electrified – the iPod/iPad/iPhone becomes the focal point when it should be a secondary element. “One size fits all” is a tall order and I think the idea of an external, remote or wired, dock would work better which in turn would mean the source would not be the focus. It could be equally 'well designed' but not 'competing' or detracting from the BS8.

    As an admirer of B&O for decades I expect great things from them and feel that this particular design really falls short of my B&O expectation. As murcieme said; “it does not make my jaw drop”. I think it should.

    But, its better than a lot of stuff out there and if someone likes it thats fine. Thats the interesting thing about people and perception. We all see things differently!

     

  • 12-29-2010 6:55 AM In reply to

    • jc
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I don't understand why the design of the Beosound 8 provokes such hefty reactions. It looks fresh and to-the-point, does not resemble anything that already exists. B&o have changed their design some 10 years ago, coming out of the Jensen era.

    Why didn't for instance the Beolab 9 trigger these reactions? It's not a clear beauty either at first look. As with a lot of designs, things have to grow on you.

    Or beocom 5? Or even the Beolab 5? Not instantly regarded as beautifull by many who saw them for the first time, all you can say is that the design is special and different from other AV manufacturers. 

    Why raising the bar so high? B&o have had a history with inconsistent designs, yes they've made some products that still can be regarded as icons/classics, like the Beocenter 9000, the Beovision MX, beocom 2000, beogram 4000. But on the other hand, but how about the beovision avant which I think is an ugly CRT pretending to be a fancy flatscreen, hanging on a massive wall that makes the Berlin wall look elegant. And industrial design ages, the Jensen designs still are nice to see but they are evident from yesterday. So get on, and get used to these 2 circles with an ipod in the middle.   

  • 12-29-2010 7:51 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    To me, the BL9s were perfectly in keeping with good design whilst still following function.  Yeah, okay, the top seems a little narrow from the first look, but that is probably because one was used to not having speakers narrow that much at the top. As it stands (literally), it seems well balanced yet still look as if it can produce a firm bottom.

    The BL5s are very different speakers to most other speakers, but again, form follows function. Yes, one could argue that those alu-discs are ugly or look out of place if so inclined, but they perform a function, and when it comes to proportions, they are both pretty well designed.

    But even if we had come to conclude that the BL5s and BL9s were butt-ugly, that they didn't grow on some on us, that has no bearing on the BS8. They could be exceptional design blunders yet the BS8 could be design heaven. Or vice versa as it were. Each product has to be "examined" on it's own merits. The BS8's own merits involves different size LCD screens to be fitted, and that, it seems, are its downfall when it comes to the design.

    Just because a design is made on "contradictions", doesn't mean that anything that clashes is designed well according to the design brief. I linked to a CH37 chair earlier (at the top of this page, I believe), and it too have "contradictions". Contradictions is often used to juxtapose different materials and different parts of a design (round table top, square legs etc., concrete and wood, glass and concrete), but that doesn't mean that any contradiction therefore can be construed as "good design".

     

     

     

  • 12-29-2010 8:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I suppose I don't understand the criticism of the various iPod/iPad form factors on top. Of course they look difference, but the essence of this product is a dock. It is designed to have something sitting up there. When an iPod sits on top, the speakers look very large and muscular (which they are, for an iPod dock). When the iPad is docked, it's the only dock where the elements look visually balanced. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-29-2010 8:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    TripEnglish:

    I suppose I don't understand the criticism of the various iPod/iPad form factors on top. Of course they look difference, but the essence of this product is a dock. It is designed to have something sitting up there. When an iPod sits on top, the speakers look very large and muscular (which they are, for an iPod dock). When the iPad is docked, it's the only dock where the elements look visually balanced. 

    Although I'm not in the market for a BS8 (not using iPod or iPad) I totally agree: the BS8 with iPad really looks very balanced (and almost as good with the iPod.) Nearly all other docks just look like boxes with the iPod stuck on top as an afterthought.

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-29-2010 8:50 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    TripEnglish:

    I suppose I don't understand the criticism of the various iPod/iPad form factors on top. Of course they look difference, but the essence of this product is a dock. It is designed to have something sitting up there. When an iPod sits on top, the speakers look very large and muscular (which they are, for an iPod dock). When the iPad is docked, it's the only dock where the elements look visually balanced. 

    I won't quote your Jesus facepalm, although it would fit nicely.  How about you tried to argue why it fits so well together - you know, the exact same you ask of the "detractors"?

     

    How do you figure the elements are "visually balanced"?

    Speaking of which, you using the logical fallacy, that it is a "dock, so it's designed to have something sitting on top" is really not valid. In fact, it's nonsensical circular logic.

    Yes, it's a dock, because it's designed to dock something. And it's designed to have something sitting on top, because that is where the designer put the connector. That doesn't mean that that is the only way to design something that "docks" an iPod - or rather: uses an iPod/iPhone/iPad as a source - nor that it's the best.

    And while we're at it, I'd argue that the essense of this thing is the fact that it has speakers and as such is a standalone stereo for your iPod. The way to connect the source is secondary when it comes to the design. 

     

  • 12-29-2010 10:59 AM In reply to

    • Tomaz
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    What the most call here "out of proportion" is infact the key why it looks so interesting at least to me, the materials and build quality are also good... in the overall a refreshing design approach and definetely beyond a dock solution. Only the center control is odd.. clicking through a list and/or adjusting the volume with those flashing LEDs are annoying. Instead a fine aluminum rotary knob would have been fine. Further I think the Beosound 8 has potential for a standalone audio system , without the dock part, its own little beo-screen and acoustic lenses :)

    TT

  • 12-29-2010 11:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Electrified:

    TripEnglish:

    I suppose I don't understand the criticism of the various iPod/iPad form factors on top. Of course they look difference, but the essence of this product is a dock. It is designed to have something sitting up there. When an iPod sits on top, the speakers look very large and muscular (which they are, for an iPod dock). When the iPad is docked, it's the only dock where the elements look visually balanced. 

    I won't quote your Jesus facepalm, although it would fit nicely.  How about you tried to argue why it fits so well together - you know, the exact same you ask of the "detractors"?

     

    How do you figure the elements are "visually balanced"?

    Speaking of which, you using the logical fallacy, that it is a "dock, so it's designed to have something sitting on top" is really not valid. In fact, it's nonsensical circular logic.

    Yes, it's a dock, because it's designed to dock something. And it's designed to have something sitting on top, because that is where the designer put the connector. That doesn't mean that that is the only way to design something that "docks" an iPod - or rather: uses an iPod/iPhone/iPad as a source - nor that it's the best.

    And while we're at it, I'd argue that the essense of this thing is the fact that it has speakers and as such is a standalone stereo for your iPod. The way to connect the source is secondary when it comes to the design. 

    Visually balanced means that the visible elements, when viewed from the front, are similar in proportion when an iPad is docked on top. The transom is thick enough, vertically, to look as though it can support the iPad (though the device is really very light), and the speakers are similar in dimension so as not to look "underpowered" when the iPad is placed on top. If any of these elements were much smaller, the iPad would look out of scale.

    The logic is only nonsensical if you don't understand what words mean. A dock implies a quick attachment. The iPod/iPad demand that their screens be visible, so it's a foregone conclusion that the device will be visible & upright. If you think that that's a fallacy, please provide an example of a usable dock that does not follow this paradigm. All iOS devices are either on top of or in front of the chassis. Anything else would be unusable in the paradigm of a dock since remote control is limited to basic navigation and not rich browsing.

    On your final point, your argument would not be correct, though, and would be counter to the stated intention of the designer. While artistic objects inspire multiple interpretations, it is designed to be an iPod/iPad dock with high quality speakers. For a digital music system you move into Sonos/BeoSound 5/Etc. territory where the interface takes on a new paradigm (browsing in your hand instead of locally + the ability to choose from a range of speakers for a range of applications).

    I appreciate that you have taken on arguing with me as a pet project, but as my wife can assure you, I do not lose arguments. I will wear you down to a nub and leave you a trembling husk. I will do this even if I'm wrong. Happy New Year!  

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-29-2010 11:51 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    TripEnglish:

    Visually balanced means that the visible elements, when viewed from the front, are similar in proportion when an iPad is docked on top. The transom is thick enough, vertically, to look as though it can support the iPad (though the device is really very light), and the speakers are similar in dimension so as not to look "underpowered" when the iPad is placed on top. If any of these elements were much smaller, the iPad would look out of scale.

    Another piece of your circular arguments: You're saying that it's visually balanced, because the dimensions of the speakers and bridge doesn't change.

     

    The logic is only nonsensical if you don't understand what words mean. A dock implies a quick attachment. The iPod/iPad demand that their screens be visible, so it's a foregone conclusion that the device will be visible & upright.

    No, it's circular logic and nonsensical, because you choose to use a descriptor of functionality to define "good design", by claiming that the descriptive word "dock" describes the BS8 very well.

    If you think that that's a fallacy, please provide an example of a usable dock that does not follow this paradigm. All iOS devices are either on top of or in front of the chassis. Anything else would be unusable in the paradigm of a dock since remote control is limited to basic navigation and not rich browsing.

    See above.

     

    On your final point, your argument would not be correct, though, and would be counter to the stated intention of the designer. While artistic objects inspire multiple interpretations, it is designed to be an iPod/iPad dock with high quality speakers. For a digital music system you move into Sonos/BeoSound 5/Etc. territory where the interface takes on a new paradigm (browsing in your hand instead of locally + the ability to choose from a range of speakers for a range of applications).

    You're misrepresenting what I say. My point is not at all about moving this into the territory of Sonos and Squeezebox, it's about this thing being a boom box using an iPad/iPhone/iPod as a source. That is the only design brief that makes sense, not "design a dock".

     

    I appreciate that you have taken on arguing with me as a pet project, but as my wife can assure you, I do not lose arguments. I will wear you down to a nub and leave you a trembling husk. I will do this even if I'm wrong. Happy New Year!  

    Hmm, just because you don't give up or change your stance, doesn't mean you don't loose the argument.

     

  • 12-29-2010 11:56 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    Being willfully obtuse doesn't impress girls. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-29-2010 12:02 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    TripEnglish:

    Being willfully obtuse doesn't impress girls. 

    Well done, you have just examplified why I seem to focus on your pseudo-argumentation and unsubstantiated claims  Yes -  thumbs up

     

     

  • 12-29-2010 12:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 8 and design

    I think it is about expectations - what you (or I) have grown to expect from B&O.

    Like a fine wine from well known vineyard.

    And, just because we've come to expect iThingies to be 'docked' doesn't mean they have to be. I get quite annoyed when I want to use my iPhone when it is docked. It is not easy to use and feels fragile stuck on the connector.

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