Electrified:

TripEnglish:

Visually balanced means that the visible elements, when viewed from the front, are similar in proportion when an iPad is docked on top. The transom is thick enough, vertically, to look as though it can support the iPad (though the device is really very light), and the speakers are similar in dimension so as not to look "underpowered" when the iPad is placed on top. If any of these elements were much smaller, the iPad would look out of scale.

Another piece of your circular arguments: You're saying that it's visually balanced, because the dimensions of the speakers and bridge doesn't change.

No I'm not. Your imagination is playing too heavily into your interpretation. I'm saying that there are 3 visual elements. Two speakers, one transom. These are all give visual weight in their scale and dimension. The iPad is very large, and similar in scale visually. This is what I'm saying. You can't accuse me of circular logic based on an erroneous interpretation of what I'm saying. 

 

The logic is only nonsensical if you don't understand what words mean. A dock implies a quick attachment. The iPod/iPad demand that their screens be visible, so it's a foregone conclusion that the device will be visible & upright.

No, it's circular logic and nonsensical, because you choose to use a descriptor of functionality to define "good design", by claiming that the descriptive word "dock" describes the BS8 very well.

It's a dock! That's what it is! Your entire argument on this point is that it's a speaker set that connects to an iPod which is entirely an invention on your part. It's an iPod dock. Not a stereo where one of the sources could potentially be an iPod. It was conceived that way, designed that way, and operates that way. If you're holding out for a different product, that's fine. 

If you think that that's a fallacy, please provide an example of a usable dock that does not follow this paradigm. All iOS devices are either on top of or in front of the chassis. Anything else would be unusable in the paradigm of a dock since remote control is limited to basic navigation and not rich browsing.

See above.

Yes, your point was dealt with handily above.

On your final point, your argument would not be correct, though, and would be counter to the stated intention of the designer. While artistic objects inspire multiple interpretations, it is designed to be an iPod/iPad dock with high quality speakers. For a digital music system you move into Sonos/BeoSound 5/Etc. territory where the interface takes on a new paradigm (browsing in your hand instead of locally + the ability to choose from a range of speakers for a range of applications).

You're misrepresenting what I say. My point is not at all about moving this into the territory of Sonos and Squeezebox, it's about this thing being a boom box using an iPad/iPhone/iPod as a source. That is the only design brief that makes sense, not "design a dock".

Again, see above. Your interpretation was not the design brief. This is an iPod dock. That's the only way it's discussed. That you can plug another device into it is a value-add to the iPod dock form factor. 

I appreciate that you have taken on arguing with me as a pet project, but as my wife can assure you, I do not lose arguments. I will wear you down to a nub and leave you a trembling husk. I will do this even if I'm wrong. Happy New Year!  

Hmm, just because you don't give up or change your stance, doesn't mean you don't loose the argument.

You're correct. I win them generally because I'm right. That's especially true here. 

ojibway:

I think it is about expectations - what you (or I) have grown to expect from B&O.

Like a fine wine from well known vineyard.

And, just because we've come to expect iThingies to be 'docked' doesn't mean they have to be. I get quite annoyed when I want to use my iPhone when it is docked. It is not easy to use and feels fragile stuck on the connector.

Ojibway,

I think you're making headway on a useful argument. Since the iPhone & iPad are now multifunctional devices, it makes less sense to have the docked. In this regard you could say that the BeoSound 8 is only ideal for those with music-only iPods. I purchased an iPod touch for the stores' demo units because my iPhone would ring and interrupt the music and I'd have to walk across the room to get it. Not a great user-experience. 

Connect an AirPort Express to it instead and now it has an empty space on top where a device was intended to sit (because it's a dock, Electrified!). Now the design really does look incomplete. 

To that I'd say that let's, then, leave the BeoSound 8 as a product that fills a specific niche, and call upon B&O to make a similar product that functions as a pair of remote speakers, be they AirPlay driven or otherwise. 

I for one would welcome a richer offering on the affordable retail end of things.

guys im tired of your argumentations ...

if we come to the question , "how would you change the BS 8"  ( engadget classics :)

I would have left out the dock from the beginning, instead rely on wireless bridgeCo airplay interface. Make more space between the both loudspeakers for better stereo , give its own screen for radio, music info and acoustic lenses for those with higher expectations :D , and some "real" wheels as hard interfaces on the unit.
And let it assemble in the arctic by some happy penguins instead in china  :D and everyone will be happy.(new year )

{edit 30.12.10}

This is what I meant ...a virtual docking via airplay instead of a physical :) ... if a ipod "docks"(connects) the icon changes into a ipod icon and so on ... yawninggg yeah..

@@Puncher :) dual - driver

Tomaz, 

Anyone who can put up an alternative design like that has the right to the last word. See you on the outside. Well done.

Trip

Excellent work Tomaz !

I don't need one, and probably will not purchase one, but your ideas and rendering is quite an improvement.

Slightly off-topic, but Tomaz' design makes me think of just how difficult the inclusion of an acoustic lens is in an overall design. I personally thought it was the achilles heel of the BeoVision 9.

I think it looks best incorporated in the BeoLab 9s, but the best way I've seen to deal with it is mechanical motion such as in the dashboards of the cars. I'd like to see us introduce a speaker with an acoustic lens that pops up.

TripEnglish:

Slightly off-topic, but Tomaz' design makes me think of just how difficult the inclusion of an acoustic lens is in an overall design. I personally thought it was the achilles heel of the BeoVision 9.

I think it looks best incorporated in the BeoLab 9s, but the best way I've seen to deal with it is mechanical motion such as in the dashboards of the cars. I'd like to see us introduce a speaker with an acoustic lens that pops up.

+1

TripEnglish:

Slightly off-topic, but Tomaz' design makes me think of just how difficult the inclusion of an acoustic lens is in an overall design. I personally thought it was the achilles heel of the BeoVision 9.

I think it looks best incorporated in the BeoLab 9s, but the best way I've seen to deal with it is mechanical motion such as in the dashboards of the cars. I'd like to see us introduce a speaker with an acoustic lens that pops up.

And that has actually been mentioned many times on the forum as an idea!

In Tomaz' concept (which I really like, I suppose we'll see that many times in the following years as a thread starter: "I just found this, is it the new Beo*** ***?"...) they could probably roll over to reveal a solid ball backside when not in use. Silly, perhaps, useless, perhaps, but out of harm's and dust's way and... magic.

TripEnglish:

No I'm not. Your imagination is playing too heavily into your interpretation. I'm saying that there are 3 visual elements. Two speakers, one transom. These are all give visual weight in their scale and dimension. The iPad is very large, and similar in scale visually. This is what I'm saying. You can't accuse me of circular logic based on an erroneous interpretation of what I'm saying. 

Again: I think you should reread your post. It's not an erroneous interpretation. Your argument was that as the speakers and bridge stayed the same, it stayed the same.

Further, there are not three visual elements, but four of five. Since the iPod/iPhone/iPad is meant to be docked, those two different sized slates are elements too. And since they either look abondoned (in the case of the iPod/iPhone) in the middle of it all, or dominate the set-up in the case of the iPad, B&O haven't come up with a design that works with both. It's trying to sit between two chairs.

TripEnglish:

It's a dock! That's what it is! Your entire argument on this point is that it's a speaker set that connects to an iPod which is entirely an invention on your part.

No it's not. It's a description of what it actually is. You trying to pretend that because it has a dock for the iThingies, then it is a dock, is like saying Beolab 5s are DACs because they happen to have a DAC in them.

TripEnglish:

Yes, your point was dealt with handily above.

Not even close. Your red herrings and logical fallacies are never dealing handily with anything.

TripEnglish:

On your final point, your argument would not be correct, though, and would be counter to the stated intention of the designer.

No it wouldn't. If it were merely a dock, and not "a set of connected speakers (i.e. "boom box") using the iThings as a source", you would end up with a dock. You know, one of those small things without speakers.

TripEnglish:

While artistic objects inspire multiple interpretations, it is designed to be an iPod/iPad dock with high quality speakers.

Okay, let me spell it out for you: What you just described is "a boom box using an iThing as a source". I reallly don't understand why that is so hard to grasp for you.

TripEnglish:

For a digital music system you move into Sonos/BeoSound 5/Etc. territory where the interface takes on a new paradigm (browsing in your hand instead of locally + the ability to choose from a range of speakers for a range of applications).

Speaking of inventions. I never argued that it should move into such a territory. That is a complete and utter strawman.

TripEnglish:

Again, see above. Your interpretation was not the design brief. This is an iPod dock. That's the only way it's discussed. That you can plug another device into it is a value-add to the iPod dock form factor. 

No, this is not an iPod dock. This is a pair of speakers which happens to use a dock to connect the various iThings.

TripEnglish:

You're correct. I win them generally because I'm right. That's especially true here. 

LOL, no, you think you win because you use red herrings, strawman arguments and outright deny listening to reason and valid argumentation. Your assertation that you're right here, is just laughable. But if that constitutes "winning" in your world, I'm really not surprised you think you're winning all the time. It also explains your attitude towards anyone having the nerve to not be a yesman when it comes to B&O.

Nice solution and rendering, Tomaz.

As it's a plan view I cannot see if the speakers are raised or flush with the central bar. I suggested they should be flush (or almost flush).

This looks like it should be wall-mounted. Otherwise you lose the integrity of the form with all thats happening at the back - unless the back has the same attention applied.

No dock but an information screen is a vast improvement. Maybe the BOys at BO should take a look.

I think that the general consensus is that the the Beosound 8 leaves room for improvement and that it was a mistake to try to dock an iPhone or iPad which have a whole lot of other functions. Easiest would be to give it a few gigs of memory and transfer your music to it. Shove in an internet radio receiver and go and play games, make phone calls, mess with photos or do whatever else you do with your iGadget.

Electrified, this is not interesting for anyone else. We all have access to 8th grade logic text books. If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, please pm me and do it privately. 

ojibway:

 

As it's a plan view I cannot see if the speakers are raised or flush with the central bar. I suggested they should be flush (or almost flush).

 

 

 

Thank you ojibway,

yes the central bar is almost "flush" it doesnt need to "stand back"
because of the fact there will be no ipod / ipad sitting on top, and the central bar itself is kept very slim...whatever its just a render

Tomaz:

 

 

That is a very nice idea - good work Tomaz, looks like an actual BeoThing.

I know its just a render - but IF bsnd 8 looked like that - and it had a mechanical Line in and USB as well as airplay, it would be on my wall today, no question.

You should submit that. 

Better still, Beosound 9 - as above - with wireless link ability = the perfect Beolink partner for Bsnd 5 encore, as well as a higher quality i-solution for non beo- users. 

I'm trying so hard not to say the "S" word....oh, well..... imagine that with a Spotify facility.  Screen and two wheels = full control.

Retailing about £1100 UK - it would probably sit nicely alongside Bsnd 8 - everyone likes a choice, and that is two similar but different idea's.  

£1100 would also fill the Bsnd 1 price point, and with wirelss ML/Beonet,  offer a Beolab 2000 for the digital age.

£800 for the Bsnd 8, dock and "normal" speakers, ....or £1100 for the BSn9 - airplay add on and Spotify controller - with wirless/ML and ALT

Tomaz,

How would it work? I see that with the screen turned on there are two axis similar to the BeoSound 5. Do they correspond to the wheel controls on either side of the screen? Please walk us through features & operation.

Thanks,

T

TripEnglish:

Electrified, this is not interesting for anyone else. We all have access to 8th grade logic text books. If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, please pm me and do it privately. 

Your arrogance is very misplaced when you're the one making all the logical fallacies, and you're way past the point were you can take the high ground.

But of course, when one's arguments fails completely on logical reasons, why not pretend reason and logic is as something anyone can do. and therefore shouldn't matter. Because, you know, that makes so much sense

Seriously, Trip, act like a man instead of using thinly veiled ad hominems whenever your arguments falls flat on its face.

Electrified:

Your arrogance is very misplaced when you're the one making all the logical fallacies

Why - because you say so?

Electrified:

and you're way past the point were you can take the high ground.

Why - because you say so?

Electrified:

But of course, when one's arguments fails completely on logical reasons, why not pretend reason and logic is as something anyone can do. and therefore shouldn't matter. Because, you know, that makes so much sense

As a postmodernist I have to disagree.

Electrified:

Seriously, Trip, act like a man instead of using thinly veiled ad hominems whenever your arguments falls flat on its face.

You have a narrow interpretation of what acting like a man entails. Your posts merely provoke others with their vitriol, and rarely add anything new to the wider debate, unless it is about fountain pens - though there are forums where you can go to discuss these should you wish. Safe behind your avatar and anonymous username, and you have the front to suggest that Trip should act like a man? 

TripEnglish:

Tomaz,

How would it work? I see that with the screen turned on there are two axis similar to the BeoSound 5. Do they correspond to the wheel controls on either side of the screen? Please walk us through features & operation.

Thanks,

T

I have a slight concern about the ALT lens (and therefore the tweeter assembly) being in front of the main driver, I'm not sure how feasible that would be from an engineering viewpoint but I do like the overall rendering!

j0hnbarker:

Why - because you say so?

No, because I have shown so. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the pudding is this very thread.

j0hnbarker:

As a postmodernist I have to disagree.

That's just an unsubstantiated claim and a statement - also unsubstantitated.. One of them being irrelevant, as it has no bearing on anything whether you're a postmodernist or not, and the second one, the statement that you disagree is just as irrelevant if you don't bring anything other than the statement to the table.

j0hnbarker:

You have a narrow interpretation of what acting like a man entails

Sure, asking someone to act like a man in this context would mean that the person stopped using strawman argumentation, stopped using ad hominems and at least tried to not use logical fallacies to back up his argument, interspersed with claims that he cannot loose a discussion because he doesn't give up (and other nonsense intended to make the opposition give up), is really too much to ask of a man.

But just like Trip, you just make some unsubstianted claims and think that's enough. But unlike him, at least you haven't tried to ride the moral high horse and ask of everyone else but yourself to stop speaking nonsense, to stop being ignorant and whatnot Trip has spewed preemptively in other threads. At least you haven't tried to use pure arrogance with nothing to back it up, other than more arrogance, to shut down anyone not agreeing with you.

I guess it's too much to ask of a man that he acts like one, and stop using childish rhetoric that most people should be able to see through. Hell, he has even admitted it's logic on a low level, so he should be able to avoid it.

j0hnbarker:

Your posts merely provoke others with their vitriol, and rarely add anything new to the wider debate, unless it is about fountain pens - though there are forums where you can go to discuss these should you wish.

Ah, yes, me countering ignorance then it's "vitriol", Trip calling anyone not agreeing with him for ignorant, that's just fine. I especially like how you - like him - will not pass a chance to basically tell people that doesn't agree with you that they ought to **** off and find somewhere else. Apparently it would be a better forum in the minds of you guys if we all were in awe of whatever came out from B&O, and we all bowed in awe over whatever Trip thinks is right and wrong with the world.

And let me spell it out for you too, as you do exactly the same as Trip: Unsubstantiated claims  is just that: Unsubstantiated. And ad hominems is a logical fallacy, that really doesn't allow any of you to claim the moral high ground in this discussion.

Ah, I missed the last ad hominem:

j0hnbarker:

Safe behind your avatar and anonymous username, and you have the front to suggest that Trip should act like a man? 

Sorry, is "Trip English" any less anonymous?  Besides, there may be very good reasons why someone is anonymous. Personally, I have chosen to be anonymous for a number of reasons, one of them being that I'm not in retail, but because I'm a journalist-***-producer, and I therefore do journalism and pr work from time to time. I like to keep my personal life separated from my professional life, because I can't sing the praise of product privately, yet do pr work for a competitor in real life, nor would it be good for a company if I had nixed a product privately, if I were to do PR for them later. Keeping my name from the public allows me to have an opinion. And before you run with that, no, it's not a double standard, it's simply keeping my private life from my professional work so the client receives what he pays for, regardless of my personal opinion.

I am, however, a little surprised you try to play that card, given that Trip want any negative discussion to cease, because it might cost him on the bottom line. You don't see a problem with that, but me being private, uh, oh, the horror!

PM me for a discussion about postmodernism Electrified. The one you will Google on Wikipedia isn't very good. We can then take it from there, step-by-step, why my subscription to postmodernist thought means that I see your logic as mere fallacy.

I am never really sure what is happening in these long drawn out discussions which essentially bash Bang & Olufsen no matter what new product they introduce.  I have a few comments.

1. Not made in Denmark!  In this case the reason for production in China of the Beosound 8 was easy.  Cost of course is a factor but I believe the case for investment in a new factory anywhere did not make sense.  Beosound 8 is not a 10 year product because Beosound 8 will be very out of date in maybe 3 years or less.  Also this is a mass market item that will not only be in B&O stores but in the Apple store and amazon.com and others.

2. Design.  If you don't like, don't buy it.

3. Cost.  Again it's easy.  If you want a Beosound 8 but don't have the money, set some money aside and buy it later.  It may be on special offer by then.  There is a worldwide financial recession now.  This was brave of B&O to do this but it might be part of the survival plan

That's my thoughts on the matter.  There were several products I didn't buy mainly because I didn't like them........Beosound 3 was one of them.

Finally Beoworld is not in decline!  Many of the members of the previous version of Beoworld who donated time and money are still here.  Lee is doing a fine job with Beoworld.  I don't know of any forums that have prize drawings. 

j0hnbarker:

PM me for a discussion about postmodernism Electrified. The one you will Google on Wikipedia isn't very good. We can then take it from there, step-by-step, why my subscription to postmodernist thought means that I see your logic as mere fallacy.

And with that you're back to making the exact same childish claim that Trip is making: That you're above logic and reason. However, you claiming to have that stance is still unsubstantitated as you used it as an argument in its own right. But I guess with the stance that both you and he seems to subscribe to, there's no way to actually use a computer, be on the internet, go to the doctor, drive your car, and hold that stance without being a hypocrite. Those things are based on the very things you denounce, and the claim that being a postmodernist allows you to claim that "my" logic is a mere fallacy is circular logic. You cannot denounce, say, mathemathics with one hand, and with the other prove mathemathically mathemathics doesn't exist. That is just a nonsensical and childish red herring as it seems you and Trip doesn't seem to run out of.

Electrified:

j0hnbarker:

PM me for a discussion about postmodernism Electrified. The one you will Google on Wikipedia isn't very good. We can then take it from there, step-by-step, why my subscription to postmodernist thought means that I see your logic as mere fallacy.

And with that you're back to making the exact same childish claim that Trip is making: That you're above logic and reason. However, you claiming to have that stance is still unsubstantitated as you used it as an argument in its own right. But I guess with the stance that both you and he seems to subscribe to, there's no way to actually use a computer, be on the internet, go to the doctor, drive your car, and hold that stance without being a hypocrite. Those things are based on the very things you denounce, and the claim that being a postmodernist allows you to claim that "my" logic is a mere fallacy is circular logic. You cannot denounce, say, mathemathics with one hand, and with the other prove mathemathically mathemathics doesn't exist. That is just a nonsensical and childish red herring as it seems you and Trip doesn't seem to run out of.

 

You better Google it then.

Electrified:

given that Trip want any negative discussion to cease, because it might cost him on the bottom line. You don't see a problem with that, but me being private, uh, oh, the horror!

Trip didn't say this.  I believe his call was for more constructive criticism, less "I don't like it because it's stupid". 

What's that strawman fallacy you keep railing about?  Pot, meet kettle...

folkdeejay:

 

I know its just a render - but IF bsnd 8 looked like that - and it had a mechanical Line in and USB as well as airplay, it would be on my wall today, no question.

You should submit that. 

 

 

Thanks folkdeejay,

But, I can recommend the BS8 its has great sound , designwise and soundwise its without competition and if you going to get a cheap Airport Express from Ebay you can just plug it on the backside. And its ok.

There is nothing to submit, its still a Beosound 8 and not my design , I just have altered and added some parts thats all.

Its also not a replacement more a standalone main audio system , only for the wall,which dont need to be portable , it could based on the Beosound 8 plattform and could stream from Apple Products as well as from BS5.