wonderfulelectric:

Mr 10 percent, since when was I actually advocating the use of a computer as a sound source? In fact in my own system I bought an Olive for music purposes which also happens to be the same room as my mac. I was just simply saying that a computer can provide supreme sound quality when executed properly. BTW i am really looking forward to getting the Beosound 5 that is if it is a future-proof solution. 

Just a comment on your final sentence. There can no such thing as a product that is a 'future-proof solution'.

As the future cannot be predicted by anyone, no company can promise or provide a 'future-proof solution' to anything!  

beoberlin:

TripEnglish:

That is, as Russ points out, the benefit of having our HQ on a remote farm in Jutland. We don't have to react to trends. 

If after seeing an playing with the BeoSound 5 you still prefer an iPod remote or surfing lists while sitting at a desk, then you're probably not ready for us anyway. 

 

Sorry, but this is the most arrogant comment ever.

Yes i agree... i think is very unfair of you to speak on behalf of B&o in this arrogant manner when you've got nothing to do with what products they spin out of the factory. 

Sorry, but "that's just not cricket". Please don't make B&o look like belligerent snobs.  

Dave:

beoberlin:

TripEnglish:

That is, as Russ points out, the benefit of having our HQ on a remote farm in Jutland. We don't have to react to trends. 

If after seeing an playing with the BeoSound 5 you still prefer an iPod remote or surfing lists while sitting at a desk, then you're probably not ready for us anyway. 

 Sorry, but this is the most arrogant comment ever.

 Yes i agree... i think is very unfair of you to speak on behalf of B&o in this arrogant manner when you've got nothing to do with what products they spin out of the factory. 

Sorry, but "that's just not cricket". Please don't make B&o look like belligerent snobs.  

TripEnglish:

Accusing me of arrogance is the height of arrogance! For shame, sir! 

Guys,

I think Trip sees himself as 'elitist' not 'arrogant'...as for belligerent, well....

Burantek:

Happy to see you coming around on this....  This isn't my first 'B&O Rodeo', and I'm getting a good feeling about it.  I get a BeoSound 9000/Avant-US/BeoLab 5 kind of vibe here.  To Trip's point, the BeoSound 5 may well not be for everyone, some of the intrinsic value may not be immediately obvious, perhaps because the BS-5 really is addressing questions that we aren't really prepared to ask...to paraphrase his earlier post.

Allow me to relate a personal anecdote, which will tie back to my earlier rant on the BeoSound 9000:  I was in Atlanta, dealing with a very bright married couple, discussing a 4-zone MasterLink system, and trying to convince them of the 9000's value...no go...too expensive...final solution was a BeoSound 4000, and a Sony 100-CD carousel.  Within a month the husband came looking for me, and apologized for questioning me.  He had grown to hate the now daily routine of manually searching for any particular CD in the Sony, just to play it in the car for the day.  The price advantage no longer held any value for him.  He hadn't thought through all of the ramifications of such a (then) radical design.

We've all heard similar doubts about the Avant, and the BeoLab 5, despite brilliant first impressions, and despite 'challenging' designs and price tags...but we never hear such complaints from owners of any of those products, do we?  Someone out on the farm spent the time necessary to discern what we really needed from a top-shelf product, and gave that to us...wether we wanted it or not.

Of course BM5/BS5 could just be the next  BeoSound 6.

Russ 

Ís there anyone who knows the specifications?!

petermc:

I'm sure there are many ways of getting better sound out of my computer however I'm not really interested in going down the digital converter/Beoport/ USB attachment route due to the fact the computer has to be connected and left on.

 I have a laptop which I mainly use for internet, email, word processing and loading SD cards with music for my BeoSound 2 etc. I don't have a desktop as I don't really need it nor have the space for it. When the computer is not being used it is packed away.

 If the BS 5 can deliver music (and hold 500+ CD's) with the same sound quality as my BS 9000 at the push of a button or two without a computer attached and being left on then it will suit me fine. 

Roll on November..

Peter

 

Peter, if the best sound quality you have heard is from the Beosound 9000 or you think Besound 9000 provides adequate sound in today's terms. Oh! you are missing so much. Cd playback has advanced so much in the past couple of years that if you were to listen to what good cd players have to offer nowadays, you might be floored by their smooth and fatigue free sounds. 

PS. What I meant by a future-proof product is to offer the best that today's technology has to offer. For example, 24bit/196khz playback from high resolution computer files. Not very popular now, but gaining in momentum/acceptance. 

Best

Alexander  

wonderfulelectric:

Peter, if the best sound quality you have heard is from the Beosound 9000 or you think Besound 9000 provides adequate sound in today's terms. Oh! you are missing so much. Cd playback has advanced so much in the past couple of years that if you were to listen to what good cd players have to offer nowadays, you might be floored by their smooth and fatigue free sounds. 

PS. What I meant by a future-proof product is to offer the best that today's technology has to offer. For example, 24bit/196khz playback from high resolution computer files. Not very popular now, but gaining in momentum/acceptance. 

Best

Alexander  

My CD 7000 happens to be one of the smoothest sources I've yet listened, to. OFC the CDX was wonderfully smooth, but not too detailed. CD playing hasn't really improved massively in the last few years. What has improved is the understanding behind the mastering of 16 bit 44.1kHz recordings and the dithering required to downsample them from the 96 kHz 24 bit mixes which come out of studios. Playback has hardly changed at all with the exception of BeoLab 5s and other similar speakers on the market.

Alex:

wonderfulelectric:

Peter, if the best sound quality you have heard is from the Beosound 9000 or you think Besound 9000 provides adequate sound in today's terms. Oh! you are missing so much. Cd playback has advanced so much in the past couple of years that if you were to listen to what good cd players have to offer nowadays, you might be floored by their smooth and fatigue free sounds. 

PS. What I meant by a future-proof product is to offer the best that today's technology has to offer. For example, 24bit/196khz playback from high resolution computer files. Not very popular now, but gaining in momentum/acceptance. 

Best

Alexander  

My CD 7000 happens to be one of the smoothest sources I've yet listened, to. OFC the CDX was wonderfully smooth, but not too detailed. CD playing hasn't really improved massively in the last few years. What has improved is the understanding behind the mastering of 16 bit 44.1kHz recordings and the dithering required to downsample them from the 96 kHz 24 bit mixes which come out of studios. Playback has hardly changed at all with the exception of BeoLab 5s and other similar speakers on the market.

Can I take it then that you refer to "posh" music, 'coz general chart fodder has no production values at all! In that arena loudness is King. Lets all prey for a return to dynamics - where you can hear instruments "breath" (rather than have singers breath pumped in your face).

Linnrecords is a good place to visit to download real high def. audio if you're interested (you may be suprised to find very few chart recordings there) - FLAC and WMA btw - God bless Apple lossless, it's the future)

I think interest for the product is definitely there.

What I am wondering is, I manage all my content in Itunes which is updated at a ridiculous speed. Is B&O ready to keep up with that or will it prevent me from upgrading. I don't use Windows, so Beoplayer is not really an option (I also wouldn't want 2 libraries and my Ipod won't go away so I tunes is a must).

I think that question can only be answered over time and then they won't have the 2 way at start so I am just thinking I wait it out.

JK 

Yep, for sure there are better sounding Cd players than the BS9000. I used to own a full set of separates and to be honest it all became too hard.

I like the sound of the BS9000, It doesn't take up much space and it's dead easy to operate. My wife & I are happy with it and frankly I can't be bothered with a bunch of separates with 5 different remotes.

I like that it can be turned on by the push of one button and can be operated throughout the house with relative ease.

Most of us are aware that we can have better sound with other brands but as a total package (taking into consideration the sound, operation and looks) I think it pretty good.

Peter

Alex:

wonderfulelectric:

Peter, if the best sound quality you have heard is from the Beosound 9000 or you think Besound 9000 provides adequate sound in today's terms. Oh! you are missing so much. Cd playback has advanced so much in the past couple of years that if you were to listen to what good cd players have to offer nowadays, you might be floored by their smooth and fatigue free sounds. 

PS. What I meant by a future-proof product is to offer the best that today's technology has to offer. For example, 24bit/196khz playback from high resolution computer files. Not very popular now, but gaining in momentum/acceptance. 

Best

Alexander  

My CD 7000 happens to be one of the smoothest sources I've yet listened, to. OFC the CDX was wonderfully smooth, but not too detailed. CD playing hasn't really improved massively in the last few years. What has improved is the understanding behind the mastering of 16 bit 44.1kHz recordings and the dithering required to downsample them from the 96 kHz 24 bit mixes which come out of studios. Playback has hardly changed at all with the exception of BeoLab 5s and other similar speakers on the market.

Being a frequent reader of audiophile magazines I have come across solid published measurements on cd players, DA converters whatevers....  Trust me. There is definitely a tremendous leap in recent years. Take for example the frequency response is way flatter now, the analogue waveform resembles more like an analogue source and less nasty digital artifacts. Speaking of which, B&O should start to upgrade the digital sections of the Beolab 5s cos my god technology has advanced so much in the digital arena. I mean that's the reason why vintage high end cd players have like no resale value as compare to amplifiers or speakers. The DSP in Beolab 5s isn't without any drawbacks you know. However, I have to admit that the Beolab 5s are voiced very well so outdated internal components might not bother it as much. But speaking on individual components such as the Beosound 9000, it definitely makes a difference to update it. 

Okay an example will be the Linn Sondek CD12, although I still lust for it cos it's so unattainably expensive and over the top luxurious, it's performance is definitely outdated by affordable technologies of today. Take a closer look at the analogue waveforms it produce is like looking at the teeth of a shark, it is that jagged while today's machines produce a more square-like waveform. Makes me glad that I may never have a chance to be seduced by The Linn's heavyweight solid aluminum satin chassis.

You mean upsampling? 16 bit to 24 bit, 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz etc...? BeoLab 5s already do it, as does the BeoSound 9000 and indeed even the CD7000 I believe. In fact, BeoLab 5s up-sample to 192 kHz internally.

Frequency response of CD players has always been pretty flat as long as the output stage is well designed, again, something the CD7000 was known for as with it's predecessors, and indeed most of B&O's designs since.

If it is all about the figures, waveforms etc... then surely you will have noticed that CD players which upsample in fact produce higher levels of measured distortion?

I think Russ' anecdotes always strike a cord with me because it is so close to my thinking. I like how time sorts things out and it's been a very long time since I was interested at being on the crest of any trend or technology. I like music from artists that have paid their dues. I like furniture that has at least a few decades of credibility. I like clothing styles that I can find in black and white photos. I like that companies like Bang & Olufsen and Apple don't dive into something until they're sure that they can deliver a definitive version of it.

I've had people, inside a single conversation, poke fun at me because the BeoSystem 3 doesn't output HDMI to our monitors and almost immediately launch into a series of horror stories about HDCP errors with HDMI and how he'd rather just not use them! That's what I mean when I say things like "you're not ready." I'm certainly being a smart-ass, but I also mean it in a very sincere way. I meet people every day in my shop who are so caught up with what is possible and what might exist next year that they're making their lives tremendously more difficult than they need to be. Forget AV, you can make a hobby out of simply staying current! To my mind its absurd and I'm glad that people who don't get their rocks off being "first on the block" have somewhere to go to make sensible purchases.

come on TRIP! you are killing me!!!

i love reading your posts! but wow!

burantek:

come on TRIP! you are killing me!!!

i love reading your posts! but wow!

Jeff,

My family is all in South Carolina, and I will be screaming at my Avant/US Saturday night, while my poor chickens attempt to stave off the Bayou Bengals...but hear me now and understand me later...Trip is on to something here...marketing departments have driven the buying public to persue the latest-and-greatest in the high-tech AV world. 

Smart, well-off people spend their days working to the point of exhaustion to provide for themselves and their families, when they make significant purchases, they consult trusted experts and allow those worthies to make decisions for them.  The details, and the pursuit of bleeding-edge street-cred, is for others to worry about.  These customers trust that the experts have taken the time to consider the options, and compromises, and made a defensible decision.  B&O is not chasing the DIY, tweaky, high-end client, and they are making their choices with an eye toward presenting a complete, dare I say it, holistic, solution.  Will it be the best possible?  Unlikely, but it will be a well thought out compromise which probably presents top-shelf real-world performance, with a  world-class user interface?  That remains to be seen, but I have high hopes.

I find it fascinating that before the BM/BS-5 is even available for review folks on these forums are comparing it unfavorably to products like the SooLoos which will cost something nearly twice B&O's expected asking price.  Just wait until you can touch the wounds yourselves guys!

By the way, just so that y'all don't think Trip and I are clones...he meant to say 'strike a chord'.... 
 

Alex:

You mean upsampling? 16 bit to 24 bit, 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz etc...? BeoLab 5s already do it, as does the BeoSound 9000 and indeed even the CD7000 I believe. In fact, BeoLab 5s up-sample to 192 kHz internally.

Frequency response of CD players has always been pretty flat as long as the output stage is well designed, again, something the CD7000 was known for as with it's predecessors, and indeed most of B&O's designs since.

If it is all about the figures, waveforms etc... then surely you will have noticed that CD players which upsample in fact produce higher levels of measured distortion?

Oh no... not upsampling. Some of the methods have not changed but the techniques sure did improve. Anyways go www.stereophile.com and compare the uber-expensive Linn Sondek CD12's measurements with affordable cd players today. There is a startling difference. Like the older cd players just nearly a decade back tend to produce waveforms than doesn't even resemble sine waves at all and now it looks more like nicely formed stepped sine wave, and at a higher resolution with 24bit/196khz, it almost look exactly like an analogue sine wave. I didn't use to know what other advantages that higher resolution formats give except for a wider frequency response, but now I know. Upsampling usually gives rise to things like pre and post ringing but it is so refined now that it is no longer much of a problem. So my point is go try switching to a more advanced cd player than the Beosound 9000, I mean the Beosound 9000 was not even advanced in it's time and I am afraid it is even more so now. 

Good thing is that soon maybe even normal 16bit cds can sound like vinyl minus the noise.  

wonderfulelectric:

Oh no... not upsampling. Some of the methods have not changed but the techniques sure did improve. Anyways go www.stereophile.com..............

That'll be the site that advocates replacing your current CD player with a Playstation 1 then!

wonderfulelectric:

I mean the Beosound 9000 was not even advanced in it's time and I am afraid it is even more so now. 

Good thing is that soon maybe even normal 16bit cds can sound like vinyl minus the noise.  

 Wonderfulelectric, I would like to challenge your assumptions about the quality of the BeoSound 9000.

In fact, I would defy you to hear a difference between the digital s/pdif coax out on a Beogram CD 6500/7000, the BeoSound 9000, a dCS Puccini and a TEAC Esoteric transport. And I'd like to toss in a Wadia while we're at it.

Case in point. The Absolute Sound has waxed lyrical about the amazing sound quality of the Edge G-series CD-player - ranking it top of class, and way above its price category. That may change now that people have had a look inside - they took a regular OEM DVD-player and repackaged it - knowing full well that today's digital transports are fully capable of delivering the signal they should deliver.

What you want to do with that signal is then up to you, whether you want to stream it as directly as possible to your speakers, or modify it on its way. Some CD-players modify the signal, thus actually distorting it, but in the case of the Edge, the analog OUT delivers a little bump in the bass that some found very "analog vinyl tasty."

Go figure. But I really think you shouldn't slag the BeoSound 9000 - it's very good. Ask the architect Daniel Libeskind - before settling on architecture, he played Bach at performance level. He uses his BS9000 to compare different piano recordings, and is astonished at its fidelity (and he's tried numerous cd-players.)

The interior of a USD 9000 CD-player which is described in lyrical terms by "audiophile" reviewers. Harry Pearson of TAS gave it the Editor's Choice Award ... when I asked him about it, via e-mail, the answer I received was not very enlightening. "It appears that Edge have saved a lot of space ... I stand by my evaluation."

I went and tested this hypothesis by going to a good Hi-Fi store and comparing my poor old CDX (14 bit over sampling no less) against some modern CD players. We used the top of the line Naim system through some rather large B&W speakers.

Result:

The CDX was practically indistinguishable from a £1000 new CD player - (apart from the fact that it was easier to use and change tracks.)

It was however comprehensively beaten by the top of the range Naim CD555. 

Both of these findings surprised me. Most CD players sound the same to me, I confess. The CDX does sound rather warm and if I had known I was going to be using a Naim system, I would have taken my CD7000 (I took the one with RCA plugs but Naim uses DIN!)

Despite this, the CDX was on a similar level to the £1000+ player - slightly more detail on the latter - cymbals seemed more accurate but I certainly would not have been confident in an A/B/X trial. Possibly the more expensive player was better at complex pieces where a lot of things were happening - choral music - but I put this down to the D/A converter.

The CD555 was just better in every way - I would have had no problem telling this apart from either of the others. I put this down to a better D/AC but also to the system being completely matched - the B&O argument - a system being more than the sum of its parts. 

Did you listen to the analog-OUT or the digital-OUT, Peter? I did specify the digital-OUT above.

Many top-end cd-players do considerable signal processing after having lifted the signal off the CD, and this signal processing creates sound signatures. (Naim clearly has one, as does Mark Levinson.) The unprocessed bitstream should be identical. (Yes, a bunch will now leap in with the "jitter" worries.)