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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-23-2008 8:38 AM by burantek. 114 replies.
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  • 10-15-2008 5:05 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    petermc:
    I have Beolab 5 speakers. I don't currently use a computer for my music as I don't like the quality of the sound. If I can load all my CD's on the BS 5, turn the computer off, access all the albums easily and can't tell the difference between the CD and the BS 5 I'll be happy. 

    Peter 

     

    Cant find fault in that argument.

     

    10%

  • 10-15-2008 8:05 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    TripEnglish:

    That is, as Russ points out, the benefit of having our HQ on a remote farm in Jutland. We don't have to react to trends. 

    If after seeing an playing with the BeoSound 5 you still prefer an iPod remote or surfing lists while sitting at a desk, then you're probably not ready for us anyway. 

     

    Sorry, but this is the most arrogant comment ever.

    And especially daring by a representative of a company who is technology-wise so far behind the others (probably except speakers)  and who´s last really "magic" product (said bs9000) is like from -hm let me see- yeah 1996, that´s a whopping 20 years ago.

    I have more the feeling that you are not ready for us. Still I really hope for you, that bs5 will meet the expectations but until now I´m not this impressed. The idea of copying content from one machine to the other (bm5) and having to sync it everytime to be up-to-date with your collection on the computer is sooo sad and -yes- analogue. I´ll wait and see.

     

    Kind regards, beoberlin 

  • 10-15-2008 8:11 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    beoberlin:
    I have more the feeling that you are not ready us.

    The man's got a point :)

     

    btw:

    ...12-13 years, but just as old

  • 10-15-2008 8:19 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    timhanna:

    btw:

    ...12-13 years, but just as old

     

    Uh, sorry. Haven´t slept that well tonight.

    Kind regards, beoberlin 

  • 10-15-2008 10:59 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    And just let me add: The attitude of "we don´t have to look and listen, what all the others do" nearly throw you out of the market at the end of the 90s (remember?!), when everybody but the grand Danes started selling flatTVs like mad, only some poor souls of a so-called premium brand were sitting in there empty showrooms staring into spaces and wondering about their non-existent customers. And believe me, I know that CRT was -and probably still is- better than LCD. So walking all alone in one way can be a very very deserted path.

     

    Kind regards, beoberlin 

  • 10-15-2008 12:10 PM In reply to

    • Sal
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-30-2007
    • Indianapolis, USA
    • Posts 261
    • Bronze Member

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    My opinion, which, althuogh somewhat different than that of BeoBerlin, shares much of his frustration with B&O's perceived "arrogance."

    What can we say is B&O's distinguishing hallmark when compared to other (non-consumer) brands, and do those characteristics deserve the premium that B&O charges? I think the materials, fit and finish, as well as design, are the only differences between B&O and other brands... Apart from loudspeakers, B&O's philosophy of going it's own way and not adopting technologies before they're established has put B&O far behind the times, and has inherently made B&O's competitiveness more difficult. Being an "also-ran" in terms of features and compatibility makes it far too difficult for new B&O buyers to enter into the world B&O.

    The question has to be asked, what can the BM5/BS5 offer as a music hub (I don't want to call it a media hub, because, unless I missed the thread / posts, it is solely an audio-machine), that other solutions can't match? I don't know the answers to these questions. But I'll venture to say that I'm prepared to be underwhelmed at launch. Hopefully my low expectations on it's functionality will be met with the "wow" factor of HOW it works to delvier music in different ways. I'm very happy that Mac-integration is present, that's a feat in itself for B&O *snicker*

    I'm taking a wait and see approach to the BM5/BS5, even though this post may sound like I'm knocking it before trying it. I will always give B&O the benefit of the doubt, because I've generally been happy with their offerings.

    But Beoberlin's point remains: isolation in the marketplace can only get you so far, that sometimes it leaves you far-behind.

    Love B&O, but no longer addicted.
  • 10-15-2008 12:15 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    B&O is changing direction at the moment, in term of technologies and politics. So let's wait for a while, as it will take a year or two to fully materialise.

    Also, let's not take Trip's comments as B&O's official comments.

    p.

  • 10-15-2008 12:27 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    RussR:

    wonderfulelectric:
    Well that was what I thinking koning. Totally weird move for B&O. With that touchscreen... it should totally be a beocenter. Also... maybe B&O can think about optional plugin cards to support electronics from other brands ie... XLR/RCA outputs/inputs and Ipod Syncing. 

    All evidence, and reliable rumours, indicate that there is no touch screen on the BeoSound 5, WE.  Sorry. 

    And perhaps its just here on the left side of the pond, but XLR connectors?  Really?  We only see those on Professional/Studio/Broadcast gear here...or on equipment so esoteric that even the SteamPunks quail in its presence. 

    RCA's or a minijack output seem like a good bet for the BeoMaster 5 though.

    iPod synching?  Wouldn't that require that Apple allow file downloading from the iPods?  Even within their own hermetically sealed environment iPPods are only allowed to upload directly to an authorized computer on the same billing account, and then only for purchaesd music...which I think you'll agree is the worst possible quality. 

     Oh what I meant by ipod syncing was the ability to upload music to Ipod and play music from it, just like the previous generations of Olive. (Olive is coming out with an external device to sync ipod with their new system) 

    Oh well. with a modular card upgrade system, I think it is very to choose the more expensive XLR output or the RCA one. Many expensive amplifiers do usually recommend XLR for its vanishing noise floor and balanced drive. PS. The Domestic version of the ATC active 20s I own only accept XLRs. 

    Anyways the emphasis is on MODULARITY! What's an external ugly box for if it can't even serve its purpose well? 

  • 10-15-2008 12:32 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Mr10Percent:
    petermc:
    I have Beolab 5 speakers. I don't currently use a computer for my music as I don't like the quality of the sound. If I can load all my CD's on the BS 5, turn the computer off, access all the albums easily and can't tell the difference between the CD and the BS 5 I'll be happy. 

    Peter 

     

    Cant find fault in that argument.

     

    10%

     Ermm.... if you have a audio device that connects to the computer via USB and outputs digital or analogue ( Benchmark DAC) then you will have a very high end source.A properly executed USB connection ensures error free streaming of music. In fact just use a high quality wifi hub say the Squeezebox or Sonos and there you have it, high end sound without the high end price tag. Because most of the time affordable cd players out there don't even output bit perfect digital audio

  • 10-15-2008 12:39 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    TripEnglish:

    If after seeing an playing with the BeoSound 5 you still prefer an iPod remote or surfing lists while sitting at a desk, then you're probably not ready for us anyway. 

    That is quite a statement, maybe B&O should have this stamped on the box when the BS5 is released and at the launch when encountered with critisim?

    Amazing really...

  • 10-15-2008 12:54 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    petermc:
    I have Beolab 5 speakers. I don't currently use a computer for my music as I don't like the quality of the sound. If I can load all my CD's on the BS 5, turn the computer off, access all the albums easily and can't tell the difference between the CD and the BS 5 I'll be happy. 

    Peter 

    Today, music is recorded on/by computers, processed with them, and subsequently output from them as files used for generating CD-masters and other playback source media. By following some recommended solutions, you can get excellent sound from them.

    Analog OUT connections from computers are not up to the level of what BL5s can do, but as stated just above, you can connect a soundcard or other output device. I would recommend one that converts your music files to s/pdif coax (many cards have this option). The card can either be installed in your machine or connected via USB/FW or other output connection.

    You will then stream an unconverted, undiluted, pristine version of EXACTLY what's on the lossless music file, straight to your loudspeakers. And you can perform EQ, if you wish, on the signal before it goes to the soundcard.

    More here: www.computeraudiophile.com

  • 10-15-2008 1:32 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    BTW it is recommended not to install an internal soundcard. It will be best to buy an external one as the environment in the computer is way too noisy for high res audio. 

    USB/firewire connections are recommended too because it's a 2 way communication sys thereby the zero and ones in the digital signal can be synchronized.  

  • 10-15-2008 2:11 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
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    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    wonderfulelectric:

    BTW it is recommended not to install an internal soundcard. It will be best to buy an external one as the environment in the computer is way too noisy for high res audio. 

    USB/firewire connections are recommended too because it's a 2 way communication sys thereby the zero and ones in the digital signal can be synchronized.  

    Agree - but why bother to buy "another" converter?? To Soundproof's point, send the spdif signal directly to BL5's and use their (rather splendid) internal converters. Smile

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 10-15-2008 2:20 PM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    You've got to also think about what's happening with those 1s and 0s when it passes through the Windows sound system, and usually they're modified anyway (the Windows sound system is quite poor to be honest). External soundcards, such as the Edirol 8in/8out interface I've been using today allow you to bypass any 'volume controls' or EQs built into the OS and gives you a 'bit-for-bit identical' digital signal.

    Either way, the sound chips in the BeoSound 5 are of B&O's own design (not off-the-shelf hardware) and will perform excellently. B&O have taken the sonic performance of the BeoSound 5 very seriously...

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 10-15-2008 3:31 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Erm... no the digital outputs straight from computer are littered with jitter (timing errors) so it's kinda a bad idea. This might be very stressful for the converters built in the Beolab 5s and thus losing lots of their splendid sound. Whole idea is to use an external USB activated re-clocking machine that communicates with the computer so timing errors can be completely eliminated. Maybe the future generations of Beolab 5s will include USB interface? 

    Regarding the sound being modified by software? yeah... there might be a problem problem but if the volume is set to max for USB output and the sound level is controlled in the Beolab 5 itself then there should be no problem. The problem with the volume controls in computers are that it is very software dependent, some software updates or versions are better at performing the functions than others - whenever you lower the volume in the digital level you do risk losing resolution or bits. Good thing about digital is that errors introduced earlier can be corrected down the chain which is unlike analogue. But of course when resolution or bits are lost, there will be no recovering it except or covering up the lost with some processing. 

    If there is a B&O technician who is reading this thread please consider making Beosound 5 modular. Since B&O electronics are supposedly made to remain in the market for at least a decade, it is very important to make software and hardware updates easy. So update via wifi or ethernet is crucial and so is the option of modular card based upgrades. I suppose there will be a powerful CPU acting as a brain in Besound 5? So making it modular shouldn't be all that hard. Making add-on electronic boards shouldn't be all that expensive either. 

  • 10-15-2008 4:05 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
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    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    wonderfulelectric:

    Erm... no the digital outputs straight from computer are littered with jitter (timing errors) so it's kinda a bad idea. This might be very stressful for the converters built in the Beolab 5s and thus losing lots of their splendid sound. Whole idea is to use an external USB activated re-clocking machine that communicates with the computer so timing errors can be completely eliminated. Maybe the future generations of Beolab 5s will include USB interface? 

    Regarding the sound being modified by software? yeah... there might be a problem problem but if the volume is set to max for USB output and the sound level is controlled in the Beolab 5 itself then there should be no problem. The problem with the volume controls in computers are that it is very software dependent, some software updates or versions are better at performing the functions than others - whenever you lower the volume in the digital level you do risk losing resolution or bits. Good thing about digital is that errors introduced earlier can be corrected down the chain which is unlike analogue. But of course when resolution or bits are lost, there will be no recovering it except or covering up the lost with some processing. 

    If there is a B&O technician who is reading this thread please consider making Beosound 5 modular. Since B&O electronics are supposedly made to remain in the market for at least a decade, it is very important to make software and hardware updates easy. So update via wifi or ethernet is crucial and so is the option of modular card based upgrades. I suppose there will be a powerful CPU acting as a brain in Besound 5? So making it modular shouldn't be all that hard. Making add-on electronic boards shouldn't be all that expensive either. 

    Don't quite agree - as long as the digital data transfer is error free (and if it was that uncommon just think how many random sums would be added and subtracted from your bank balance), and the BL5's have a large enough buffer to account for any timing errors in the transfer, then the only clock that would count in the "jitter" stakes is the clock governing the D/A converter.

    If you re in the business of high quality audio, you do tend to make sure your output D/A clock is pretty stable or else you fall down the rankings pretty quickly!

     

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 10-15-2008 4:13 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Puncher:
    wonderfulelectric:

    Erm... no the digital outputs straight from computer are littered with jitter (timing errors) so it's kinda a bad idea. This might be very stressful for the converters built in the Beolab 5s and thus losing lots of their splendid sound. Whole idea is to use an external USB activated re-clocking machine that communicates with the computer so timing errors can be completely eliminated. Maybe the future generations of Beolab 5s will include USB interface? 

    Regarding the sound being modified by software? yeah... there might be a problem problem but if the volume is set to max for USB output and the sound level is controlled in the Beolab 5 itself then there should be no problem. The problem with the volume controls in computers are that it is very software dependent, some software updates or versions are better at performing the functions than others - whenever you lower the volume in the digital level you do risk losing resolution or bits. Good thing about digital is that errors introduced earlier can be corrected down the chain which is unlike analogue. But of course when resolution or bits are lost, there will be no recovering it except or covering up the lost with some processing. 

    If there is a B&O technician who is reading this thread please consider making Beosound 5 modular. Since B&O electronics are supposedly made to remain in the market for at least a decade, it is very important to make software and hardware updates easy. So update via wifi or ethernet is crucial and so is the option of modular card based upgrades. I suppose there will be a powerful CPU acting as a brain in Besound 5? So making it modular shouldn't be all that hard. Making add-on electronic boards shouldn't be all that expensive either. 

    Don't quite agree - as long as the digital data transfer is error free (and if it was that uncommon just think how many random sums would be added and subtracted from your bank balance), and the BL5's have a large enough buffer to account for any timing errors in the transfer, then the only clock that would count in the "jitter" stakes is the clock governing the D/A converter.

    If you re in the business of high quality audio, you do tend to make sure your output D/A clock is pretty stable or else you fall down the rankings pretty quickly!

     

     Trust me that is not how it works. Even very high end D/A converters, meaning D/A converters that cost as much as Beolab5s itself do get affected by incoming data streams. No such thing as 100% immune to jitter as of yet. It's still a dream.  

    Think of it this way, if input jitter is no longer a problem, why do so many audiophile brands desperately turn to harddisk players for a best bang for buck solution as a source transport? Reason why I am stressing the importance of jitter free solutions is that it does make a difference in sound quality, the less digital artifacts there is the more natural sounding it will be. Our ears are quite sensitive to the inaccuracies of digital conversions.... jitter, pre-ringing, post-ringing and all that jazz. 

  • 10-15-2008 4:33 PM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Because audiophile companies are for the most part, desperate to find some new non-existant technical error in most people's hifi systems to squeeze more money out of people who pretend to know what they're talking about.

    Digital is digital. Yes, there is such a thing as jitter, but it is not an issue. The only thing which can affect digital data transfer is ensuring all word clocks are in sync.

    Any good studio engineer (who usually know what they're talking about) will tell you that you cannot claim digital bitstream from one CD player is any better or different to that from another.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 10-15-2008 5:16 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Jitter worries are nonsense. A reviewer in Absolute Sound claimed he could distinguish between 8 and 15 picoseconds of jitter, as produced by a component in two different modes. That is, he could note a 7 picosecond difference. This is a potential distortion of 0,000308%

    There are amplifiers judged to be excellent that produce 4% distortion. A write in comment to Absolute Sound put this in context:

    Create a band of Absolute Sound magazines, one next to another, around the world at the Equator. Place those magazines cover to cover. You'll need 400 million mag's to create the band.

    Let this band represent 1 (ONE) second of time. 7 picoseconds of jitter represents three sheets in ONE magazine, out of 400 million.

    Jitter is not a problem even with today's off-the-shelf OEM digital components.

  • 10-15-2008 5:39 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
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    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    wonderfulelectric:
    Puncher:
    wonderfulelectric:

    Erm... no the digital outputs straight from computer are littered with jitter (timing errors) so it's kinda a bad idea. This might be very stressful for the converters built in the Beolab 5s and thus losing lots of their splendid sound. Whole idea is to use an external USB activated re-clocking machine that communicates with the computer so timing errors can be completely eliminated. Maybe the future generations of Beolab 5s will include USB interface? 

    Regarding the sound being modified by software? yeah... there might be a problem problem but if the volume is set to max for USB output and the sound level is controlled in the Beolab 5 itself then there should be no problem. The problem with the volume controls in computers are that it is very software dependent, some software updates or versions are better at performing the functions than others - whenever you lower the volume in the digital level you do risk losing resolution or bits. Good thing about digital is that errors introduced earlier can be corrected down the chain which is unlike analogue. But of course when resolution or bits are lost, there will be no recovering it except or covering up the lost with some processing. 

    If there is a B&O technician who is reading this thread please consider making Beosound 5 modular. Since B&O electronics are supposedly made to remain in the market for at least a decade, it is very important to make software and hardware updates easy. So update via wifi or ethernet is crucial and so is the option of modular card based upgrades. I suppose there will be a powerful CPU acting as a brain in Besound 5? So making it modular shouldn't be all that hard. Making add-on electronic boards shouldn't be all that expensive either. 

    Don't quite agree - as long as the digital data transfer is error free (and if it was that uncommon just think how many random sums would be added and subtracted from your bank balance), and the BL5's have a large enough buffer to account for any timing errors in the transfer, then the only clock that would count in the "jitter" stakes is the clock governing the D/A converter.

    If you re in the business of high quality audio, you do tend to make sure your output D/A clock is pretty stable or else you fall down the rankings pretty quickly!

     

     Trust me that is not how it works. Even very high end D/A converters, meaning D/A converters that cost as much as Beolab5s itself do get affected by incoming data streams. No such thing as 100% immune to jitter as of yet. It's still a dream.  

    Think of it this way, if input jitter is no longer a problem, why do so many audiophile brands desperately turn to harddisk players for a best bang for buck solution as a source transport? Reason why I am stressing the importance of jitter free solutions is that it does make a difference in sound quality, the less digital artifacts there is the more natural sounding it will be. Our ears are quite sensitive to the inaccuracies of digital conversions.... jitter, pre-ringing, post-ringing and all that jazz. 

    Trust me - as long as a D/A converter has an uninterupted data stream (assured in digital transfer by a suitable data buffer), only the clock accuracy of the D/A converter counts.

     

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 10-15-2008 8:44 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Sounds like not so Wonderful after all.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 10-15-2008 9:20 PM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    wonderfulelectric:
    Mr10Percent:
    petermc:
    I have Beolab 5 speakers. I don't currently use a computer for my music as I don't like the quality of the sound. If I can load all my CD's on the BS 5, turn the computer off, access all the albums easily and can't tell the difference between the CD and the BS 5 I'll be happy. 

    Peter 

     

    Cant find fault in that argument.

     

    10%

     Ermm.... if you have a audio device that connects to the computer via USB and outputs digital or analogue ( Benchmark DAC) then you will have a very high end source.A properly executed USB connection ensures error free streaming of music. In fact just use a high quality wifi hub say the Squeezebox or Sonos and there you have it, high end sound without the high end price tag. Because most of the time affordable cd players out there don't even output bit perfect digital audio

     

    Wonderfuel,

    This is not the point. You dont get it. I'm sure there are gazillions of ways to do this for 5 quid with your PC and with all sorts of add-on gadgets. What some people what here is a nice simple fuss-free way to play high quality music at CD level or higher through some of the best loudspeakers ever made. I am totally at one with Petermc here.

    I dont want to pour over my PC when I'm relaxing. I pour over the PC all day and enough is enough. I want to connect a Masterlink, a power line and flick the options. One press on a Beo4/5 and away we go! Occasionally, I may want to go and look at the album covers (either the real ones or a virtual copy) and select a CD I fancy. What I dont want to do is twice daily connect/unconnect my PC and all its cables and re-configure the odd-this or odd-that in the operating system.

    You know it really is possible that a really fine bottle of wine on your own is nicer that a party down the pub with your mates drinking alcho-pops. A lot of people dont see the value in that. Some do. A very large proportion of us (and I mean B&O owners and not forum members) cant be fagged with the gadgetry and the technology. To us, B&O is simple, looks good and sounds good. It's not for audiophiles or technophiles ("tweekers") period.

    The BS5 will probably make many B&O owners lifes even simpler when it comes to listening to music.

     

    10%.

     

  • 10-16-2008 12:15 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    I agree, Mr. 10 Percent - what people want is a trouble-free, one-click solution to digital playback of A/V content, and if it's elegantly designed that wouldn't hurt. While I've been able to set up computer playback, it will require some know-how, and it does require the occasional reset.

    Units such as BS5, Sooloos, Sonos and others deliver such easy functionality - and of the three, it appears as if the BS5 will be the most elegant - and if it's been properly spec'd by B&O, it may even bring in some new customers, looking for audiphile quality playback options.

    I put down some thoughts on "What way music?" here: http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/thread/146656.aspx

  • 10-16-2008 2:07 AM In reply to

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    Mr 10 percent, since when was I actually advocating the use of a computer as a sound source? In fact in my own system I bought an Olive for music purposes which also happens to be the same room as my mac. I was just simply saying that a computer can provide supreme sound quality when executed properly. BTW i am really looking forward to getting the Beosound 5 that is if it is a future-proof solution. 
  • 10-16-2008 7:11 AM In reply to

    • petermc
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Shepparton, Australia
    • Posts 87
    • Founder

    Re: What is BeoSound 5 needed for?

    I'm sure there are many ways of getting better sound out of my computer however I'm not really interested in going down the digital converter/Beoport/ USB attachment route due to the fact the computer has to be connected and left on.

     I have a laptop which I mainly use for internet, email, word processing and loading SD cards with music for my BeoSound 2 etc. I don't have a desktop as I don't really need it nor have the space for it. When the computer is not being used it is packed away.

     If the BS 5 can deliver music (and hold 500+ CD's) with the same sound quality as my BS 9000 at the push of a button or two without a computer attached and being left on then it will suit me fine. 

    Roll on November..

    Peter

     

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