Beoworlders,

 It makes me every time a bit angry if someone says that B&O is just design and nothing more than that ! (ofcourse it's not the best, but it is far bad !)

This morning I was in a normal electronic store to buy a new Pioneer plasma for my dad, and yes the picture is really good (like some other members said before). But after some minutes the salesman talked a bit about other brands, and especially B&O was not that good. The problem is that almost 95% of the people says the same about B&O and it just makes me a bit angry. I'm a member of some hifi forums too (because I love music), but when I say I own B&O and that I love the sound, they just laugh. C'mon, what is this all about ? Please B&O send out your products to high rated sites for reviews and repair the name of Bang & Olufsen...

I quess you all heard something like I heard this morning before. Please tell me what you guys think of it...

 Regards,
Beobird
 

Beobird,

I am not sure that the views of the audiophiles will be compatible with those in a "normal" electronics store and any answer that I give needs to separate those views. Let me take the audiophile view first;

Even the most avid B&O fanatic must acknowledge that design is part of the B&O brand. We users will acknowledge that but also say that its not all of the product. However we must know that a portion of what we pay goes to the brilliance of the design. Thus to an audiophile (who in the main has no interest in design except in respect of research for a better product) the B&O looks like poor value for money. Given the same amount of money they would argue that you could get better equipment (ignoring design) for the same money and thus B&O look like an inferior product. Logic really and its hard to argue with because we do place a value on design.

 
From the view of a salesman in a "normal store" there is nothing for him to gain by acknowledging the superiority of B&O. Price is their weapon providing a good product for a cheap price. The old 80:20 rule -- you can get 80% of the performance for 20% of the price. Again from that view B&O look likes an "inferior" product.

 
In the main I am delighted with the product even at the stupid prices we pay sometimes. My BC2300 looks as modern today as it did when I purchased it in the summer of 1999. The design is timeless! However there is a weakness when it comes to TV's (and I say this as someone who will shortly have 2 bv6-26). The present speed of the market is not one suited to B&O. They cannot keep up with some of the advances (either that or don't want too --digital TV's is classic example).

 
The lesson is that if you are happy don't worry about the rest. If the products were reviewed they would only (inevitably) come up with a poor value for money classification no matter what the technical rating was. Just enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It confuses me as well.  Price and  exclusivity are probably major factors.  B&O equipment, as we know all too well, is very, very expensive.  Most of the time in those Hi Fi forums, these people pride themselves on being able to build their systems from multiple components and have a high "tweakability" factor.  The whole concept of B&O, with its streamlined design, high cost, and limited ability to modify is alien to them.  I have seen glowing reviews of B&O products, though, from several sources.  What Sound and Vision magazine gave 5 stars to the Beolab 9's, and 4 stars (I have no idea why they deducted a star) to the Beolab 5's.  People who scoff at the sound quality of B&O, though, really don't know what they're talking about.  When first shopping for HiFi, I compared the Lab5s (which I own) to a system made up of B&W 800 speakers and McIntosh amps and CD player.  No difference in overall sound quality, better bass from the Lab5s, and better soundstage from the B&O system.  To top it off, the B&O system was actually cheaper.  Imagine that.

 The Pioneer salesman has a good point, though.  The B&O TVs are far too expensive and, for half the price, the Pioneers are every bit as good, if not better.  Don't get me wrong.  I think the B&O plasmas are gorgeous and among the best, but they cost far too much. 
 

 

I don't think we need to discuss the value B&O products have for us here on this forum. The only thing I want to add is this question: how many of the salesmen in an audiophile- or electronics-store have ever owned/ regularly used a B&O product and what is their judgment based on?

 

I have the same experience. Some people are very negative about B&O. I have excellent hearing and I like the sound I get from my B&O equipment. Same story with my eyes. They are very sensitive and they start to hurt after an hour or so looking at the lower quality screens. I literally get a headache from that kind of stuff. It is true that other manufacturers supply us with good sound and picture quality, but that's no reason to reject B&O.

Personally I have no problem at all with paying for the design and good materials. Design doesn't just happen, it's hard work. And I want to have pleasure from the objects in my house. That's exactly what I get with B&O even when the stuff is switched off. I can't think of any other manufacturer of AV equipment that can give me the same experience.

Even one of my friends, who is not that B&O minded can't keep his fingers of my BC 9300 in the livingroom and the Beo4 remote whenever he visits me. Even he gets pleasure from it...

tom:

I don't think we need to discuss the value B&O products have for us here on this forum. The only thing I want to add is this question: how many of the salesmen in an audiophile- or electronics-store have ever owned/ regularly used a B&O product and what is their judgment based on?

 

 none for sure; otherwise they would not have reacted this way....................................

It's human nature to be critical and to envy personal or commercial success. B&O is vulnerable to this simply because it is so good in so many areas. This has happened not by chance but by hard work over a long period of time with a talented and committed workforce throughout. B&O has a rich history and as such provides not just a product but an experience, and this is something competing manufacturers are unable to match. Not all of B&Os products hit the mark but those that do, really do. B&O has staying power.

There are many times I have heard people criticise B&O, both consumers and retail staff alike, but their comments just go over my head because as an owner and an enthusiast my own experiences completly contradict these comments. In terms of 'audiophiles' (I love this strange new edition to the English vocabulary) I fully agree with earlier comments that this crowd are not interested in the design but in the purest sound stage. Fine, and that being the case they should not even compare their kit to B&O as it is a completly different arena. The very fact that they do say's so much about the B&O product in the first place.

Simon.

Surely the bottom line is that whether it be in the audio,or video,arena,a B & O product should not be inferior in performance to comparably priced products.

To say that there are no aesthetically pleasing,well built audio/visual products from other manufacturers is somewhat shortsighted.

One can be an "audiophile",and be interested in aethestic design.

The "hairshirt,cottage industry styled" audio brigade died in the 1970/80s

BarryAndrew:

........

The lesson is that if you are happy don't worry about the rest. If the products were reviewed they would only (inevitably) come up with a poor value for money classification no matter what the technical rating was. Just enjoy!

 

 Good spoken words .

It's not the view of the salesman or the Audiophile that makes me a bit angry, but it's more the 75% non-audiophile users on hifi-forums who think the same, because they read some audiophile thougts about B&O.

 I think those people don't know anything about solid built components. It would be very good to put a B&O stand on a hifi show and let people feel and see the magic of those beautifull built components (just put a Beo 4 or 5 in someones hand and he will say "wow, I never thought B&O was like this instead of plastic). I don't care if they say: "nice built stuff, but for that money I prefer technical specs over beauty". It's just that they say "nice built stuff", so they understand why some other people buy B&O, instead of "B&O is rubish, but actually I don't know why, because I never saw one in real life". It's just the lack of respect in these days. People say, People do, but they don't think...

 I have respect for real hifi enthouciasts who prefer sound above anything, but let they and especially the normal hifi people respect us too...
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does vary. I remember going into a Sevenoaks shop and looking at record players - I was thinking of getting an 'audiophile' deck. The salesman asked what I had - and when I said a Beogram 4000, he told me that I would be very disappointed with almost all the decks he had to show me and that none were built to the same standard. I did buy a wall bracket from him instead!

Equally, if you speak to the more senior salesmen, they often have had dealings with B&O abd have quite a bit of respect.

AV forums are never going to be pro B&O for the reasons above - and many people will judge from what they have heard on line rather than what they have heard using their own ears! 

Part of the reason I do not enjoy most Audiophile forums is that they are full of people who will criticise anyone who hasn't made the same choices as them.

When it come to B&O in particular there is a lot of recieved wisdom. i.e. people pass on criticisms that they hace heard elsewhere, not many of the people who criticise have real experience of living with B&O products.

 
The money issue is only partially valid, one of the good things about this forum is that people are as happy to discuss 30-year old kit bought for a few pounds as they are to discuss the latest plasma screens.

 

Simon 

 

 

 

There is what I would call an Audiophile shop near to where I work. On the few occasions I have been in there and mentioned B&O. Their comments have been mixed. One sale person claimed they had worked for a B&O dealer in the past, but was vwery negative of the brand. Probably trying to justify why they now worked at an audiophile store. On another occasion two of the staff were saying they had be in the B&O store in the Mailbox in Birmingham and heard a pair of BL5's. they were very impressed with them. Mind you who wouldn't be.

 

Craig

This always makes me laugh when i hear such comments!

As an owner of Bang - BangVision MX7000 & BangCord 6000 / BC9000 & RL6.3 / BS3000 & BL4000's  / A8"s and Form2's etc and as someone who has worked for Bang i hear this cynicism from many of my friends and colleagues.  Let me tell you a few things.

•  Bang is a very good product.  It has to be, its expensive and has a very loyal client base who demand a very high quality product in all areas.  This is not to say there have been some mistakes, but the research. design and engineering behind the product is sound.  I have met numerous Bang execs and they are comitted to the cause 110%.  The speakers, in most cases are exceptionally good.  The TV's are very very good.  Look at the picture and listen to the sound and you will see this. Take even an old Bang TV and in most cases they can be repaired.  Bang is comitted to being able to repair even most of its older product.
• Bang salespeople are usually quite clued up with the market.  They are aware of all the other products on the market and there are many "audiophiles" who enjoy tweaking some other products market. Simply Bang is not for them.
• Everyday i get home, and look at my Bang products and it makes me smile. I am happy with them, they look and sound superb.  I dont want to own boxes in a cabinet.
• Everytime a guest comes over, they are amazed at the products and mine arent even that new.  "Blue speakers....what!!?"
• If you like the sound, the looks and the picture - then buy it. Dont worry about what everyone else on the planet thinks.  Everyone enjoys design in some way - Art / Cars / Furniture / ........Bang.......:)
• Hi Fi forums always compare value for money in their reviews.  Bang is expensive from the get go.  So it always gets hammered on this point.  Try to get your Pioneer plasma serviced in 5 years. Good luck.  This is where cost goes in products, storing parts and servicing products in the long term. Let me tell you, Bang execs love to hear storys on how long the products last.
• Bang is a tiny company. So its products are exclusive. Enjoy this fact. Its not a Sony.

 

Dont listen to everybody, make up your own mind. :)

 

 

Dude1 seems to know what he's talking about Hit the nail on the head...

I'd also take a chance to point out that when you get to the same kinda pedestal as B&O (which is very high up), it takes a smaller amount to bring you back down.

I have a theory that people who 'bash' brands tend to do so because they can't afford their products. People who bash B&O often seem to own 'el-cheapo' (although perfectly adequate) tellies and mini-systems, and would only bash B&O because of the price. Sure, there have been a few lemons and sometimes they could help themselves better by appealing to the audiophile market more but ultimately there are very few brands out there who do a better job on TVs & HiFis than B&O, none who manage to do it so well overall. As a result, one small mistake by B&O and it straight away everybody starts to bash them like mad...

It could be quite simple -

People who don't know don't/can't care,

People who do know (and love/understand) and won't have anything else,

People who do know ( but won't accept) and will forever chase thair tails searching for the elusive/unobtainable!

It seems daft but, although it is expensive gear, there are those that can't except that more expensive isn't neccessarily better (by the same token there are those who rightly believe less expensive can be better  - but can you live with it in your living room/throughout your house).

It's, as always, down to personal choice. For me my sound system is important (I like my music) but I don't really care about the sound quality while watching TV, nor am I bothered particulary about the relative quality of the TV picture (I still watch a Sony CRT) and will only buy a flat panel when it packs in (and it won't be a B&O - the market is moving far to quickly to spend that much for a "point in time" best in class that will be overtaken in six months by the masses).

But hey - I'm just an ordinary Joe!!

What can i say, ultimately you have to be slightly quirky to love these products, and you have to love these products to be able to fork out so much money for them!

This, to me, applys to the Australian culture, but as i can see B&O is sort of a culture in europe where some live indoors and these products are great value for them.

I just don't understand where B&O get the figures from with some of the Beovisions, particularly with the 7-32, i'll bet my bottom dollar they are raking in the profit from these TV's.

Who cares what others think, no one i know understands why you would spend so much on AV products! 

PS i just watched a french movie on SBS last night and it was plagued with B&O products, they even went and turned off the BS9000 after a guy fell and hit his head on the coffee table!  

I think these arguments are good, but misses the point.

Audiophile has nothing to do with B&O. Audophile is just like a quest for sound, a race for sound quality, and nothing else.

It's just like to race with a Ferrari in the NFS, You are able to,  but no chance to win. Ferrari is not build for short term, and idiotic races. Anyway, mostly not for race. I think only a small ammount of Ferrari owner races with his Ferrari.

And, it's not about money, not about anything.

And I think, that's the point: B&O doesn't offer a solution for ONE aspect only, but offers a great solution in all aspect. If somebody interested in only one aspect, just lik sound quality, than B&O is truly not a good choice for him, because there are several brands and products on the market, which has a better sound quality. But, so what? For that money, You can get even a whole B&O system for Your entire home...

It's a feeling, and an art. An art of design&audiovision. It has a timeless design, a timeless quality.

IMHO, that's the point. And that's what I miss from the current product range - Will they ever be a part of the Modern Art museums, just like the older ones? Will they be timeless ones?

I don't think so, because the art is a lot less today. Today's product are mostly good, but they are not really different from other ones, and therefore the price coming in range - for almost the same looking, almost the same quality, why to spend more money?

The MX and the BC range were products, which were nothing to compare - but which one is today, which has the feeling like this? 

I'm not sure I agree! Something can only become a timeless classic once it's aged, and the few products currently in the range old enough to do so are classics, namely the BeoLab 8000s, BeoSound 9000 and even the BeoSound 3200 (the design anyway).

I expect the BeoVision 8 will become a 'classic', along with the BeoLab 5s and BeoSound 4.

i remember in early 90s when the pound crashed on erm and b&o had to pass the difference to customers 10% or so,now they produce stuff in east Europe did they pass the the saving !!??  No  but keep increasing the price!! regardless  , but price here is part of the issue i agree with alex comments about the current products they are classic (not upto date) they got away with it in analog age but doubt very much they do the same in digital age,i remember when i used to pick the brochure and wanted to buy every product can not say that now!!! 

The argument of expense doesn't hold water either (as far as audio equipment is concerned). Sure the initial cost is high but over the last 20 odd years I have not needed to buy a single piece of Hi Fi equipment. My non B&O owning friends however have replaced their mass market systems many times due to changing trends or breakages, probably spending just as much as I did originally. In the meantime I have had the luxury of living with a far superior sound system with stunning timeless design and a decent 2nd hand market value (my BG6500 has probably even got a higher market value than the original purchase price).

Perhaps one of these doubting reviewers would like to do a piece on vintage equipment and see just how B&O compares with the rest - assuming they can find some working pieces

I'm happy and wouldn't swap my system for anything on the market right now.

Chris.

What is that saying "You buy cheap you buy twice".

Toby:

What is that saying "You buy cheap you buy twice".

that will be a bargain for samsung tv!! try x8 lol

Although I've met a rare few over 50 years who do, most store salespeople do not necessarily equal audiophiles. Most are hired, trained, and interested in one thing: Moving " product " out the door, in high-volume quantities, with possibly an incentive bonus to the hourly salary. Customer loyalty in this mindset is out the door, with the next person in line just one more number for the day. " Next in line, and quickly please ! "

As Peter mentions above, there are some long-term sales people around who are confident and honest enough to speak plainly about audio and video equipment without their Manager frowning down at them over the cash register. Short-term systems, short-term profits, and short-tempered, dismissive salespeople do not a loyal customer base make. Long ago I realized that the major manufacturers' big, bulky, cliche-loaded, "  ultimate systems " didn't last beyond the one year warranty at best, ending up in the rubbish bin. I remember a comment made at Kaufhof years ago by a major electronic supplier that the " public would be upset if they learned that there was a 200-250 % mark-up in audio electronic products sales. " 

Bang and Olufsen has an image and earned reputation that is excellent over the years, and a good customer following as this forum finely illustrates. Many don't understand the B&O system as a whole, or the loyalty, and reject or dismiss it. I would add after many friendly discussions over comparitive audio fidelity and components, especially when the wine is flowing, there can be a touch of jealously that surfaces too.

Be confident and proud of your choice, and above all enjoy it.

Er... sorry... where did I see the name "Samsung"? Well... if I remember well, I've seen this name on the telephones called Serene and Serenata... er... sorry, but, imho there are a lots of company all over the World, but found the only one, which is a totally accaptable partner for B&O in the hardware support? I think thats what we call an own goal...

You are right, I'am agree with the BS9000 - but BS9000 is not a new system, but an "old" one, maybe the last one from the "old fashioned" B&O products.

And, of course, I'am agree with the BS3200, but, for me this system is almost completly identical in the design with the former Beocenter (Beosystem) 2300/2500. They are truly masterpieces.

The Beosound 4 for me is a more less confortable system. First of all, it seems to me, that it can't be as perfectly wall mounted as the BS2300 - You can put anything on the wall like the BS4...

There is not any kind of an integration possibility as just like a Beocenter became a Beosystem, no BL2500 range with wall mounting kit and so on...

I really do not think that the BS4 can be compared in the design and in the possibilitis which was given You by the previous systems. I think, the BS4 was designed just like to create an up to date looking system (including some angles, not just squares), but IMHO, it's just a ""fake"" looking against to the previous ones.

Let me say it staright, for me the BS2300-BS3200 range is the beuty, and the BS4 is the other side in all aspect, sorry. I'am not able to see any new thing, any new design element, any new possibility, a better look, nothing, nothing, nothing, just a lot lost possibility. The BS4 is a one way only system in all way. All the others was at least two way mountable, and so on... not now.

Sorry for all Beoworlders, who loves it, but it's absolutely not the "old fashioned", carefully designed, and genuine B&O product, I can prefer.

If I used to see it somewhere else, I used to think it's a fake BS2500, just like the Marantz CR201 which for me is a complete BS2500&BL7000 design integration failure in all aspects.

"I expect the BeoVision 8 will become a 'classic'"

IMHO, I don't think so - I don't see the main difference between the other LCD/plasma models, even in the design. It's not the same of course, has a style, but it doesn't makes something timeless - because this kind of a design is not a futuristic one, but a "usual" up to date looking, with some retro feeling. And, just because the LCD/plasma technology advances very fast - in some years this TVs will be extraimly outdated by the opponents in the picture quality - without any problem. The big problem: They will do it for a lot less money. That's a big difference. The MX and the Avant series were the best ones on the entire planet until now in the CRT market, and IMHO they still have better picture now than almost any other LCD/Plasma. Are You sure, You can say this about BV8 in just some years?

"along with the BeoLab 5s"

This is - for me - an "odd one out", because I think this one is the truely and really overpriced B&O product. Today, in this price range there are a lot's of real quality products, which has a better sound quality, and, today, there are a lots of speakers, which looks at least as good as a B&O product. And therefore the audiophile forums used to laugh about the B&O fans, because they see only BL5, which is truly not a high end speaker, but only a high end priced item. And they think: That's all B&O can do. So it's nothing about jealousy... it's just about, and only about the sound quality.

But let me have a question. Do You remember what is the regular topic about the high end cables? The peoples who spend pound thousends only for the cables? The ones who spends a hundred thousend pound for a speker? Isn't it also jealousy this way?

No. These are different worlds, with different peoples, and with different needs. And therefore usually this peoples doesn't understand each others.

So, in short words, the BL5 design is unique, but this is not an argument in a sound quality based forum...

So, globally, I think, B&O lost something - but I hope, they'll find the way out, and they'll invent such beutiful systems and ideas as they used to be... advanced ideas, technology, never seen solutions, anything but brand new... I wish to see it again, and again... :)

IMHO of course :)