I completly agree with what you wrote AT - every word of it. I have never been a fan of the BS4 although I do know that Alex happens to love it and that's as it should be, I guess people all find different things attractive, as we do when choosing our partners. But I agree with you, it has nothing B&O about it at all. Personally I think it is cheap looking and cheap acting although the sound is good I will say that, but for someone like me who goes for design it has nothing to offer. The BS9000 is what I chose several months ago to buy. The BS4 is no different to the type of gadgetry design mini hifi's you see in electrical retailers these days, most of them with a glass door that slides upwards or sideways. I was actually very angry with B&O when they released that product because I feel it was a very poor effort and something they built just for the hell of it. You are totally right about the design philosophy of the company, they just seem to have lost it completly. All products I bought I have been in the range for years, apart from the BV7-40 and a BS3 but even the BS isn't that much of a design icon either. I do feel quite disappointed with them. As for Samsung appearing on B&O products, well this alone stops me from buying them, even if they looked like a BS9000. If the writing was hidden out of sight then I probably would. But I don't buy a B&O product and pay B&O money to see Samsung on the product. In that case I would pay a Samsung price. Could comment on a lot else but that'll do it for the moment. Its late and I am in the middle of a good book! Take care!

Simon.

AT:

This is - for me - an "odd one out", because I think this one is the truely and really overpriced B&O product. Today, in this price range there are a lot's of real quality products, which has a better sound quality, and, today, there are a lots of speakers, which looks at least as good as a B&O product. And therefore the audiophile forums used to laugh about the B&O fans, because they see only BL5, which is truly not a high end speaker, but only a high end priced item. And they think: That's all B&O can do. So it's nothing about jealousy... it's just about, and only about the sound quality.

But let me have a question. Do You remember what is the regular topic about the high end cables? The peoples who spend pound thousends only for the cables? The ones who spends a hundred thousend pound for a speker? Isn't it also jealousy this way?

No. These are different worlds, with different peoples, and with different needs. And therefore usually this peoples doesn't understand each others.

So, in short words, the BL5 design is unique, but this is not an argument in a sound quality based forum...

In that case, I challenge you to find a system from another brand costing under £70k which sounds as good or better!

You won't find one I've listened to a lot of systems and never found anything which matches up to the 5s, despite their considerably lower pricetag.

Under £70k?

Sorry, I do not know the english price list, but I think this is a very easy bet... here are some ideas from the current speakers:

Active speaker category: Martin Logan Purity for £2090. (also a good looking one!)
Thickness: Podium Model1 for $8000 US (sweedish design ;) )
Design ideas: Waterfall Audio Victoria EVO for $5400 (pure, and genuine)
In the design and genuinity category what about the DWV Art.Engine Ferrari active speakers for $22.000 only?

Just a well known brand suggests a system that costs a lot less:

The Bösendorfer(!) VC7 ($22K) with Einstein “The Last record Player” CD player ($7500) with the Gill Audio Alana vacuum tube linestage ($4500) and Art Audio’s Adagio mono block amplifiers with the Emission Labs 520 tubes ($22K) system.

So, that's correct, that about 3-10 years ago, a "high end" system had an, "I never ever want to see it in my home" design, they looked ugly, but the time had changed. If somebody thinks, the audiophile things are ugly today, then please forget it: Today, most of them looks such a beauty like this: Ancient Audio Lektor Prime CD (where did I saw this design before?...)

And, just for fun - in the audiophile forums, all these systems are called as highly priced models, because You can truly get this sound quality even for less money. 

And therefore they laugh about BL5: It was priced as a status symbol, not about the sound quality.  And that's correct.

Of course I can accept that somebody likes the design of the BL5, and the sound it produces, but IMHO anybody can get better sound quality even from a lot less expensive speaker. And, as I prooved before, there are several genuine looking speaker models on the market now. But if You like the BL5 in any aspect, than that's true, there is nothing on the market, which can do the same Feeling to You. If this feeling worth You this ammount of money, that You choosed right.

But, in the sound quality aspect I can easily challenge BL5 with this simple system:

ML390s CD player with for examle a simple Siltech cabeling and with the active Martin Logan Purity speaker. This system is less then a 1/10th of the pricerange You asked for, and it's a complete system, which includes a really high end CD player also. For £70k You can easily get a full high end system... not just the speakers!

Please believe me, I'am very happy to see You, that You like the sound of the BL5, and I wish You a lot's of happy years with it, but please, never ever try to say on an audiophile forum that it has a high end sound quality, because they will ROTFL on You immediately.

And please accept, if somebody interested in ONLY the sound quality/price range value - then he has right. And, in the audiophile forums, that's the main argument. And the usual opinion is that: The BL5 is approximately a 100 times overpriced in the sound quality/price range aspect.

That's life, and it's easy to solve: Do not listen to them but listen Your system ;)

Don't agree. In my view the BL5 is if anything under priced and they have been reviewed most favourably. Have a look here .

I certainly think that it is the bargain in the present range.

But speakers will divide opinion and each to their own.  

i think enough said here i was a loyal b&o customer(15 years or so) love their products  ,but i am unhappy about few things  with new products am here to voice constructive criticism,and end of the day it is my money and i vote with my feet

Very true. I must confess that I am less enamoured with some of the modern range though I do think that this is usually a fault with the genre technology rather than B&O in particular. I too have voted with my feet for a number of products!

AT:

Under £70k?


Please believe me, I'am very happy to see You, that You like the sound of the BL5, and I wish You a lot's of happy years with it, but please, never ever try to say on an audiophile forum that it has a high end sound quality, because they will ROTFL on You immediately.

And please accept, if somebody interested in ONLY the sound quality/price range value - then he has right. And, in the audiophile forums, that's the main argument. And the usual opinion is that: The BL5 is approximately a 100 times overpriced in the sound quality/price range aspect.

It is a workable bet that many of the people rushing in to criticise the Lab5's will never have heard them, B&O criticism is an activity people undertake in herds.

I am not even sure I accept that  people on Audiophile forums are only concerned with sound quality. There is an awful lot of pyscho-acoustics going on e.g. the fact that double-blind testing NEVER finds measurable differences between decently-built speaker cables and super-high end ones built people will endlessly discuss how much better their system sounds with 20k cables. Many of the firms selling really expensive kit to high-end audiophiles are the 21st century equivalent of snake oil salesmen.

Audiophile forums are full of  men boasting about how good their kit and their ears are, and to a man they are more interested in plotting their next upgrade and trying to make other people jealous than enjoying what they have. And I'll wager nearly all of them will spend far more over the next few years than  the B&O enthusiasts here will, but they will ultimately get less satisfaction from their systems.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Don't agree. In my view the BL5 is if anything under priced and they have been reviewed most favourably. Have a look here .

I certainly think that it is the bargain in the present range.

But speakers will divide opinion and each to their own."

I'am totally agree with the last sentence - and therefore I told, if somebody prefer the BL5, then it's a good choice for him.

The only one. But, IMHO, it was never been questioned. It is not, and never was a question for me, that if somebody loves the BL5, than he must choose it if he can afford it.

The questions in this topic were different:

- Could You find a better sound quality at this price range? And the answer is yes, You can find a lots of them. In the GBP 75k range? Incredible lot... but, so what? Does it have anything to do with the BL5 quality? IMHO, no.

- The other question was, why B&O has a bad name in the audiophile forums. I think, the answer is simple, as I told: There are a lots of better sound quality product on the market for a less money, if You look to a speaker in ONE aspect only.

Therefore, both arguments can be absolutely true in the same time: Your opinion that it's a truly underpriced products, and the audiophiles argument, that it's an overpriced speaker - just because You see the same product from "different angles". But just because of this, these are not an arguments for me, just like the payed advertisements, and the audiophile reviews, because it's only opinions, and not facts.

IMHO for somebody who likes the BL5 it worth every penny, for somebody who doesn't like it, than it's an overpriced speaker.

The solution is simple for me: Let the audiophiles think it's overpriced, and let them belive that a GBP20k cabeling can be the Nirvana. And believe it: For them, THAT IS the Nirvana. Not and never will be the BL5. Just for the record: If an audiophile forum talks about cables, which costs more then a whole brand new BL5, than I think, the most worse argument against to them to talk about jealousy, like they can't afford B&O... 

You are talking about Ferrari, they talk about Nitro powered street race cars. 
I think, the comparisation is totally useless and can't be done. 
You are not able to compare products, which used to answer for different needs.

For the B&O fans, the B&O feeling is one of the most important thing, for the audiophiles, the sound quality is the only thing. IMHO if You say on an audiophile forum that the B&O has a reasonable price, than is the same "mistake" as to say here, not the BL5 is the top of the world in the sound quality at this price range.

But let me ask it very simple: Who cares about the audiophiles HERE? Does it matter how they think about the B&O products? No. Why You wish to think this is the most ultimate speaker on the World? Will You like it more? Will it be better? Have You ever heard a speaker better after it was well advertised? If it had any kind of an award? No.

Because it depends on You, and nothing else.


 

AT:

"

You are talking about Ferrari, they talk about Nitro powered street race cars. 

 

 

You are forgetting that the emperor has no clothes. They are talking about Ferraris too!

Simon 

 

 

AT:

"

But let me ask it very simple: Who cares about the audiophiles HERE? Does it matter how they think about the B&O products? No. Why You wish to think this is the most ultimate speaker on the World? Will You like it more? Will it be better? Have You ever heard a speaker better after it was well advertised? If it had any kind of an award? No.


 

 The Audiophiles are not the biggest problem in my opinion. The real bad guys are the wannebe audiophiles. They read something from an audiophile about B&O and they think B&O is overpriced crap. This is the part where everything goes wrong.... The wannebe audiophile goes to a party and another friend saw something from B&O. So his friend ask what he thinks about it, and he says that he has readed bad things about B&O. So now a non-wannebe audiophile also things B&O is crap... (this group is becomming larger, because "Home Theatre forums" are very populair these days)

It started on a audiophile forum and it went on and on and on. Ofcourse there are plenty of people who now B&O is about the passion and the nice design combined with a good sound or vision and not only the sound or vision, but that group of people is becomming smaller and smaller. So I thougth, if B&O send out some stuff to shows, people can see what B&O is all about and it will repair his name...

when buying diamonds it is 4c (clarity,cut,colour,carat) ,u pay for

any of these is of lessor grade u pay less regardless of the box was presented on

b&o trying to sell some(not all) products of lessor grade for top price!!

"Ofcourse there are plenty of people who now B&O is about the passion and the nice design combined with a good sound or vision and not only the sound or vision, but that group of people is becomming smaller and smaller. So I thougth, if B&O send out some stuff to shows, people can see what B&O is all about and it will repair his name..."

Let's see it from a different angle, because I think, that's not a big problem. Do You wish to repair the name? Let's see it simple:

- Does B&O have solution for all possible audio and video sources?

No.

- There is no solution for DVD-A, no solution for SACD in audio, and currently not any support for the LP. Let it be straight, B&O has only CD players for the regular audio resources. Is it just because the other solutions are expensive? No. You can purchase a non branded SACD/DVDA player for GBP40.

- There is no solution for HD-DVD, no solution for Blu-Ray, not any HD format. Currently B&O supports only DVD, and in just a few products, for a lot more expensive price, than the opponents, with a lot less available connections for example. Is it a big thing to create a BR-HD DVD recorder combo? No. LG can do it for a GBP500. 

Am I right, or am I wrong that it's a little bit outdated thinking from a company who previously led the market with the new ideas and solutions for ALL Your needs?

Can You integrate all Your systems with B&O as it was possible 10 years ago? No. Not even with at least as many solutions are available, which were available at that time. 

So, if I know well, than currently You are unable to build a full B&O system, which can handle at least any of the high end formats...

And how can a brand be a market leader without supporting the leading technology? 
A high end audio supporter without any high end audio format support? 
A high end video supporter without any high end video format support?
Not even a projector, not even a brand new technology, not even a full integration possibility.

Does other brands has this options?

Yes...

And that's the problem, not the rumours.

IMHO.

Having bought the BL5's I can honestly say they saved me alot of anguish...yes there are probably better speakers. But you then have to match the speakers to the amplifier for the right sound. I got bored of going into shops for 2-3hours at a time while they set up differant amplifier/cd/speaker/cable combinations. 10 speakers, 10 pre amplifiers, 10 power amplifiers, 10 cd transports, 10 DAC's. That is over 100000 combinations.

Of those 100000 combinations, a quarter will sound as good, a quarter will sound better, a quarter will sound slightly worse, and the final quarter will sound appalling. Audiophiles spend a lifetime upgrading and auditioning to find the right sound for them and their music.

I prefer the BL5's to any combination that I heard.They also negated the upgrade path of an audiophile, leaving me to relax with the music that will be the soundtrack for the rest of my life. 

 

 

 @ AT

Thats the technical part... I don't want B&O to be famous because of his technical specs (ofcourse this would be cool too, but like you discribe B&O is not that good in the specs and formats). B&O should stand for well built components combined with a good sound or vision. Nowadays B&O doesn't stand for well built, because 90% of the people haven't seen a simple remote control like the Beo4 in real life (ofcourse we know better). 

Maybe this is why B&O is searching for a new group of customers these days. Don't get me wrong, but it seems like they are searching for a new class of people with more money, because they also must know that B&O hasn't got the same good name anymore (in the view of normal people). Most people in the new higher class don't visit "Home Theatre" or "Hifi" forums, so they don't know better. 

I am afraid that there is a growing minority,

That know the price of everything and the value of nothing

-and to these people B&O will always be a brand to be shot down because of B&O's lack of features for the amount of money, but how many of the other brands products will work with the stuff they made 20yrs ago.

now there is a thought! 

Just for fun, this topic starts to be looking exactly the same as an audiophile forum.

A religion war.

The fate in B&O against to the arguments, against to the rest of the world, against to the facts, against to anything else. 

I do not wish to take a part in it, not even on an audiophile forum (yes, I used to go there also), and not in here.

I simply tryed to answer the primary question:  "Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?", but it's impossible this way - I will not fight against thoughts, fake philosophy (the ones who doesn't 
admire B&O hasen't got the money to purchase it, snake oil retailers and so on) - because it's pure fate and nothing else.

Let me say the last sentences from one of my favourite film, the "War Games":

"This is a real strange game professor Falken.
The only winning move is not to play.
Would You like to play a nice game of chess?"

So anybody interests in anything else but a religion War? ;)

AT:

But, in the sound quality aspect I can easily challenge BL5 with this simple system:

ML390s CD player with for examle a simple Siltech cabeling and with the active Martin Logan Purity speaker. This system is less then a 1/10th of the pricerange You asked for, and it's a complete system, which includes a really high end CD player also. For £70k You can easily get a full high end system... not just the speakers!

Please believe me, I'am very happy to see You, that You like the sound of the BL5, and I wish You a lot's of happy years with it, but please, never ever try to say on an audiophile forum that it has a high end sound quality, because they will ROTFL on You immediately.

And please accept, if somebody interested in ONLY the sound quality/price range value - then he has right. And, in the audiophile forums, that's the main argument. And the usual opinion is that: The BL5 is approximately a 100 times overpriced in the sound quality/price range aspect.

That's life, and it's easy to solve: Do not listen to them but listen Your system ;)

Well the Martin Logans are nice speakers, however last time I listened the midranges seemed unnatural and lumpy, and the bass seemed a little vague, although that was possibly the room. Nice high end though, as you'd expect from a modern electrostatic.

Can't say I'm a fan of Mark Levinson kit though! I always find it sounds too 'sweet' and 'hifi'ish. I tend to prefer a more 'real' sound, no coloration.

Getting back to the main question............ I have had 10yrs of people saying the problems with B&o as have most people with any experience of bang & olufsen, The crux is what makes a valid reason for buying something? It is purely if someone wishes to buy it it is a personal choice. and that is all!  Salesmen should advise and answer questions but so many sell boxes and forget.

No one can say that sound quality or amount of inputs or ANY other factor is a more valid reason than it looks nice, it suits my room or using it as a status symbol, They are all reasons for people to buy and no one else should tell someone what to do with their money, every item out there has an audience and every audience have there own reason to buy it and all these reasons are as valid and individual as the next.

Anyway thats my two bits so Ha!

 Dave

I've used many B&O speakers over the 15 years that I have owned B&O.

But I'm also an Audiophile, and B&O has nothing to prove in the world of High-end audio. Period.

Lab5 are nice, but lacking a good signal source is the biggerst problem.

My B&O system is separate from my High-End system, consisting of Meridian, Pathos and ELAC.

Love B&O, but it's not high-end.

In Finland a HiFi magazine had a test between design speakers, and Beolab 8000 was on par with a set of satellites with a Subwoofer costing less than 1000e.

So B&O is very overpriced, but we like it this way. Without the price, stunning design, and pedigree what would we like about B&O? Other manufacturers are overpriced too. It's not only B&O.

Lab5 are the first B&O speakers that have actually been taken seriously in the Hifi community.

bayerische:

Lab5 are the first B&O speakers that have actually been taken seriously in the Hifi community.

I won't get into the for or against aspects here, but will offer a slight correction to this statement. The BL3s, the BL5s and the BL4000s are considered to be prime audiophile speakers by audiophiles of renown and acuity -- with many actually placing the BL3s ahead of the 5s due to their small footprint relative to performance. (If the 5s weren't excellent it would be a complete disgrace.)

The BL3s are considered to be superb near-field speakers, and when B&O launched the BL9s in Struer, the 3s stole the show as the assembled hi-fi press representatives couldn't believe what they were hearing from them. (Don't push them too high, though.)

===

As to the question in this thread. My take: B&O gets a bad rap from people because B&O itself has been selling A/V furniture and design instead of performance and excellence - this has opened the brand to attacks. B&O can change this, but then the brand's products must deliver, every time. At present, there's too great a mix between outstanding products and frustration vortex generators such as the mobile phone efforts, the wireless offering, BeoMedia, etc. 

My take on this is two-fold:

Firstly the problem with B&O equipment is that it can't be interchanged with third-party equipment, which is something that a lot of people like to do. Connect B&W speakers to a Primare AV unit and so on. At least this is the perceived perception - that you need to buy a B&O hifi, speakers and so on, and this can prove to be expensive and audiophiles might think that you've copped out of making a hard decision, by buying the kit from one source.

The other problem is the type of people that B&O stores traditionally attract. Our local store quite rightly say that the majority of B&O customers are seeking quality, ease-of-use, support and installation over state-of-the-art, latest features, competitive pricing etc. The typical B&O customer seems to be 40 upwards, has a high disposable income, has no interest in looking around for the best deal and simply wants to walk in to the store, make a decision, then get it installed. For this reason, so-called experts or technophiles are wary of B&O kit as they see the type of customer attracted to B&O kit - I feel the same way. Many a time I've been in to my local store to see a couple in their 50s, with £10K to spend on a TV and speaker combination, getting a demo of the various B&O TVs. It's very rare to see someone <35 in the store, making a purchase. Indeed, if I'm ever in a B&O store looking at kit with another person <30, they often feel overwhelmed by the pricing to the point they do not return for a long time.

It's weird. Some people would never dream of buying B&O kit. My brother is one of these people. Both him and his GF are professional architects, sitting in a superb modern self-designed house. For some reason, when I asked him about the tech kit he was planning for his new house, B&O kit was now way down on the list. He has been in to a local B&O store, but wasn't overly impressed with the picture quality - he loves the design of the Beovision 8, and the Beocenter 2 and was tempted to buy, until he was told how much the Beocenter 2 was - add the two together and it is a £5600 purchase for a DVD player that connects via scart (!) to a low-end TV that's made in China. To be fair, you'd have to be absolutely flush with cash to justify that decision.

bayerische:

Lab5 are nice, but lacking a good signal source is the biggerst problem.

But Lab5's accept a digital input  - why pay a fortune for a high quality analogue front end?? (which is then, in effect, reconverted to a digital form to drive the Class D output stages)

Its true to say that many individuals would not buy BnO and rather interestingly that includes many former customers who bought the products because they offered ease of use and were aguably the best- in the avant days.

Now many are amazed by the pricing and simply wont entertain the costs now involved- the arguments about ease of use and quality dont apply in the same way- buy any panasonic products with Q link and that shows how connectivity should be done.

Many  high end audio brands source from China and in order to compete and produce outstanding products they have to. In the case of BnO though they are sourcing from an avergage supplier a product which has been designed by them and then made very cheaply, with a performance level to match. I doubt that the buying cost is more than $250 on that product. This is a mistake. If BnO want to manufacture in China fair enough- but use that to produce technologically superior products and then charge the premuim for it- not source it and brand it.

With worldwide economies changing and a stagnating property market BnO had better learn quickly.

I don't think the market is stagnating as much as people feared. In the UK, most of the people I describe above make money from the rental market, rather than selling property. My landlords are classic examples. Aged between 45 and 50, eight apartments in Bath, bought for around £50,000 each around 15 years ago, all rented, and their most affordable apartment is now worth a minimum £200,000.

However, these guys don't have a huge salary (from their day work), but are property rich, if they decide to sell. Even if the property market stagnates and drops by 15%, these guys would easily be in the position to capitalise - they're still going to make a hefty profit and, guess what, as property owners, are also in a very good poisition to captilise on a declining market!

Conclusion is that the average B&O customer I mention above isn't the kind of person who will be affected by any property crash. Indeed, they're the people who would be first in line to buy new property if they do come down in price..

moxxey:

I don't think the market is stagnating as much as people feared. In the UK, most of the people I describe above make money from the rental market, rather than selling property. My landlords are classic examples. Aged between 45 and 50, eight apartments in Bath, bought for around £50,000 each around 15 years ago, all rented, and their most affordable apartment is now worth a minimum £200,000.

However, these guys don't have a huge salary (from their day work), but are property rich, if they decide to sell. Even if the property market stagnates and drops by 15%, these guys would easily be in the position to capitalise - they're still going to make a hefty profit and, guess what, as property owners, are also in a very good poisition to captilise on a declining market!

Conclusion is that the average B&O customer I mention above isn't the kind of person who will be affected by any property crash. Indeed, they're the people who would be first in line to buy new property if they do come down in price..

 

well im talking more of a worldwide situation than the Uk  market specially, the situation has only just begun.  individuals feel less wealthy when its clear house prices are not moving up! and all audio brands i know in the prestige sector are feeling the ill wind blowing. In any event the B&O pricing strategy makes seriously wealthy individuals think about the pruchase and if it is wise to 'invest' in BnO and question the performance of it especially when they can see other brands for 10th of the price that perform as well, which ewas not the case in the avant days.

The issue is that 12500 for a BV4 is pushing it when a pioneer which offers similar performance can be had for £1900. Whlist one can make an argument for the huge premium, never before has the variance in pricing been so great and for a performance level on many products which is sadly lacking