Dkatz, you better stop while you are ahead.  The United States is very multicultural and linguistically diverse.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0052.pdf

linder:

Dkatz, you better stop while you are ahead.  The United States is very multicultural and linguistically diverse.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0052.pdf

I know, I never said it wasn't! I've lived here almost my whole life. I am a US citizen, grew up here and live here now. It really depends on where you live in the US. Living in San Francisco most of my life, I never encountered the types of people that I did in London and from so many countries. Even when I did encounter people from other countries, it was mostly 2nd or 3rd generations, in London it was all recent migrants, or for the most part people who were studying or working in London. San Francisco has something like 52% Asian population so you don't get the huge diversity of Europeans or Africans you do in London so they are quite different. Either way I have met people from more cultures, that speak more languages, and that are much less integrated and assimilated in London than I have in the US and I have lived about 18 of my 27 here in the US so far!

Dkatz:

I am sure if you asked B&O why they don't outsource their higher end products I bet you they will say that it is exactly for the reason of keeping them at a high standard and high quality with hand assembly, etc... They will give you the same reasons that other high end manufacturers give. Again if China is so amazing at manufacturing then why don't ALL high end brands (especially a/v brands) manufacture in China?

How many times do you need to repeat the same question? I thought it had been answered at least once pages and pages ago.

Because their business models are completely different! Most of these "high-end" manufactures aren't that far from garage operations I mentioned. If you sell a few hundred very expensive products per year, outsourcing it anywhere - let alone to the other side of the world - would be downright silly. Logistics and management alone would cost more than just keep building them in the "garage" downstairs. Many of them are also so expensive compared to their substance that labour costs simply aren't an issue. (Besides, who is to know where they get all their parts - I forget which "high end" CD player I saw that essentially was a $20 OEM DVD drive, undoubtedly from Asia, in a fancy case. You don't receive that kind of rip offs with B&O)

If any of these "high end brands" decided to introduce, say, a $1000 iWhatever and planned to sell 100.000 of them in a few years time, they would reconsider or simply not be able to do it.

No, B&O isn't a "high end" manufacturer in the traditional sense (nor an artisan outfit), however much you would like it to be. Some of the products are "high end" (if you don't ask the "real" high end afficionados...) such as BL5, but I believe even those sell an order of magnitude more than many of their counterparts.

Electronics are not leather purses (nor cars nor houses, or what other silly things have been compared to B&O over the course of this thread). There were days when nice ladies soldered resistors and capacitors between valve socket pins and had something to do with the quality, but those times are over. Reliability of series built electronics is mostly defined by those who design the boards. After that, assembly robots take over, and they don't care much where they run.

***

EDIT: Oh, while we're talking about electronics and such stuff that B&O actually manufactures & sells... let's take TVs. Arguably, B&O's top end there are traditional high end products in the way that there's not much else available that even approaches the price (except perhaps Loewe, which is cheaper in many senses of the word). Static picture quality is obviously the same as with whoever uses the same (good) panels, dynamic PQ probably better than anything due to B&O's proprietary processing in the Beosystem 3. They are also made in Denmark from excellent materials with great attention to detail. According to what we've heard here, all key things are in place, so that wealthy individuals should flock to buy these expensive high end products, and the less blessed of us should work our arses off to some American dream to perhaps one day to be able to afford one. Does this happen? No. All you hear is that they are too expensive and then people go and buy something made of plastic.

Dkatz:

Puncher – Can you show me pictures of videos of the “hand assembly” you mention? I highly doubt it is assembled and quality control tested the same way as the Struer products. I don't have the cost breakdown but perhaps you can give it to me if you know it? Although I doubt that... The point is that it will cost less to produce the materials and components in China, as well as assemble the unit! Much Much less so the profit margin will be much higher in percentage per unit otherwise they would not be there, it's kind of common sense! Perhaps it would look the same, but I believe the quality control would be much more strict as it's their own factory that they can control 100% 24/7. And again I believe there is a reason beyond convenience and cost savings that B&O produced their own plastics and metals factory in Struer, even Automotive companies bought their Aluminum for cars because they knew it was the best available! They could have bought it from China as well! Again Puncher – name some extremely high end luxury products that are outsourced to China? There aren't many, if any... If it were the same quality, B&O would outsource their higher end goods to China as well...

I don't have any videos of the Chinese plant but I can be certain it is "hand assembled" - how else would it be put together, especially in China?? I ask again, perhaps you can explain precisely how it would be assembled differently in Struer? - as far as I know the parts do not fit together in any other configuration (unless of course it is a Decepticon iPod dock)! I also don't have costs, I asked the question because you seemed to know that materials and labour "cost next to nothing", I hoped you could be more specific.

Although you "believe" quality control would be much more strict by manufacturing in Struer there is little if any evidence to support you.

B&O are well known as experts in aluminium processing, no one is doubting their proficiency however this alone is not a justification to manufacture all of their products under the same roof - to  they have no extraordinary talents as injection moulders that I am aware of.

Whoever else manufactures whatever else in China is irrelevant, as has been pointed out now many times - different size business', different markets etc. However, as most of B&O's top of the range product are pretty much built to order, rather than supplied from stock, it makes sense that the assembly plant isn't six weeks away by boat and that individual  palettes of BL5's etc. aren't being shipped halfway around the world for the majority of customers. 

While some of this is only my opinion, I like to think that 30 years experience in the engineering/consumer goods manufacturing industry somewhat limits my chances of being completely wrong. I certainly believe it to be more relevant than vague references to leather purse and silk shirt manufacture.

Well said Mr Tounedos.

 

Voice of reason in a muddled, woolly headed thread.

folkdeejay:

Well said Mr Tounedos.

 

Voice of reason in a muddled, woolly headed thread.

Agree 100%

Jonathan:

Dkatz:

 I lived in London for 5 ½ years, which is probably far more multicultural than any city in Australia. I met and befriended people from almost every country in the world, and as mentioned I had flatmates from China, Japan, Cameroon, France, England, Italy, many countries in that time period. I learned about their cultures, customs, etc... Actually I found that the Chinese I knew were probably the ones most disappointed in Chinese quality.

 

 

Clearly you've never travelled out of the UK! London is not very multicultural at all!

You could not be more wrong.

According to the 2001 Census,27% of London's population was born outside of the UK,with more than 300 different languages spoken by it's permanent residents.

I have been in the retail consumer electronics industry for 20 years and believe that to have only one faulty product in the space of 14 months is very good going, obviously we never want to see one but that's life, things happen and it how we as dealers then deal with it; as for this subject I have to wave goodbye to it now and respect all of your opinions but my time is better spent selling BeoSound 8's and Beolit12's to people that actually want to buy them...

Thanks. I am going to say goodbye to this thread also.

Noooo! You guys, the can of gasoline is on me!

 

Don't give up yet. This has been an insanely entertaining thread.

moxxey:

Beolit 12 are NOT nasty cheaply made pieces of junk.

 

I walked into B&O's Wilmslow store on Monday.

First time i'd seen a Beolit 12 'in the flesh'

I picked it up off the shelf, had a look all round it, looked at the 'designed in Denmark, made in China' label on the bottom.

Asked the salesman if I could hear it. 'Unless you have an iphone or ipod on you, I'm afraid you cant just now' was the response. I dont have an iphone.

So I couldn't hear it. I'll just have to take people's word for it that it sounds amazing. It may well sound great. I hope it does. And I dont doubt it does in fact.

Going off looks and 'feel' though however, cheap and nasty came to mind. Not B&O impressive.

Salesman wasn't too B&O savvy either. Said he's only worked there for 6 months and therefore 'I probably knew more about B&O than he did'.

As he didnt seem to be even aware of what a Beosystem 7000/ Penta Speakers / BV5 was, I think he was probably right. 

Is the Beolit 12 about £500-600?  I wouldnt give you 50 quid for it.

I've been a B&O customer and fan since age 15 in 1987.

Shame - sounds like you had a bad expereience.- I heard it in King Street in Manchester city centre - with a wide choice of music via ipad and also Spotify on the shop PC.

It filled the shopfloor in a hugely impressive way -and its quite a big shop - and whilst it  it would not be my choice for a "critical listening" system, but the sound, design, size, build and features do just the right thing for a portable speaker.

I was actually more impressed than I expected to be.  Easily as well made than the old Beosystem 10 I owned (and still regret selling), and certainly sounded way better.

It is on my list for sure.

Bentleyman:

Going off looks and 'feel' though however, cheap and nasty came to mind. Not B&O impressive.

 

As it happens, I don't care for the Beolit 12 either - however it's because I don't like the design nor the materials selected. There is nothing about the one that I saw that intimated poor quality assembly. I could therefore blame the designer - however others seem to like it a lot. It appears then that it is a product whose design divides opinion - funnily enough something that B&O designs have a history of doing!

As a comparison, I never liked the Century, I thought it looked completely underwhelming and not unlike something Sharp would offer at the time. They sold very well.

Puncher:

As it happens, I don't care for the Beolit 12 either - however it's because I don't like the design nor the materials selected. There is nothing about the one that I saw that intimated poor quality assembly. I could therefore blame the designer - however others seem to like it a lot. 

I agree with that. I also said the same thing - I'm indifferent about the Beolit 12. It doesn't wow me nor put me off. It's definitely not cheap and nasty (I notice that all the supporters of Danish-only manufacturing, all agree that the new products are "cheap and nasty", funny that...) though. Sound is pretty reasonable for such a small product.

The finish is fine, but the design is so-so. I'm going to wait until I see the other colours in March.

Tournedos – My point is that the reason B&O don't outsource their higher end goods is because they consider them to be luxury high quality products. Otherwise they would outsource those and start mass manufacturing them as well! Most of the high end A/V companies are low production, but so is B&O in comparison to ones that do outsource. You even find some Panasonic, Sony, and other manufacturers that have high end units that they don't outsource that are not lower production than B&O!

 

A/V Manufacture differs from computer and other “electronic” manufacturers in that the quality really does get a lot better with hand assembly, testing, etc... as they do in Struer. If you think that nice ladies don't solder resistors and capacitors to boards anymore, think again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oXvXO4aYCM These Genesis amplifiers are handmade in England and you can see from the video how the ladies do exactly as you describe. These car amplifiers cost less than most B&O equipment and are built even more by hand, they are not so limited production that you can't find it in a decent car audio store, in fact most good ones in the US and around the world carry them. They still manage to turn a decent profit and even though they employ less people than B&O, the point is they keep their image alive. 

 

With B&O outsourcing they are ruining their image, you say they are not a high end audio manufacturer in your book, maybe that's exactly the problem. I understand why they outsourced, I just don't agree with it. My question was not towards this, it was about if China was so amazing at manufacturing, as good or better than the west, then why doesn't B&O outsource all their products and start producing more for less? I think you and many others know the answer to this but try to justify China's manufacture as being better somehow... It's not only about low volume manufacture not being moved abroad, there is high volume manufacture such as Fujitsu Siemens factory in Bavaria, Germany and some of Nokia's manufacture in Finland, etc... and they make a great profit whilst not outsourcing!

 

Puncher – My point was that the workers in Struer go through rigorous training schemes and aren't just hired straight to just manufacture any product. In China however, it is the complete opposite, you have a factory with workers that make products for hundreds of other companies that have differing standards. The quality control is extremely strict in Struer and each unit is rigorously tested, I doubt they would have the time to do that in China, especially with the mass manufacturing process. You don't have 100,000 people in a building manufacturing together either, you have a couple thousand at most, many of which are far from each other, some in separate rooms, etc... Much like in the Leica factory I visited in Germany. My point is that they look more like big workshops than like the factories of China. Therefore more time is spent on each product hence why the BS8 and Beolit 12 might be only marginally better if built in Struer, but with such mass manufacture I doubt the quality would be that much better.

 

It's common sense and obvious that Labour and Materials costs in China would be a lot less than in Denmark or almost anywhere in Europe! This is why they went to China in the first place. The Labour cost would be no different than with any other unit that costs $100 as it is still around $1.68 for manufacturing labour per hour in China. The plastics and metals would probably be coming out of the same factories as for the $100 models and might be made marginally better but for not much more cost. The components are where most of the real cost is, but considering how cheap the labour and materials are, the components alone would not justify the high price tag of the BS8 and Beolit 12, especially giving consideration that they were also built in China with Chinese labour and material costs!

 

My biggest concern however is that companies are not being transparent about their manufacture in China. They don't show videos or photo's of the factories too often as they do for their western factories. They won't let any consumer just go and visit the factory and talk to the workers there. They will never show how much it costs them to manufacture those products because consumers would definitely be taken aback and like I said, the price doesn't transfer to the consumer. When Dyson and other companies outsourced, they kept the same price or even made it higher after a few years, rather than reducing it! If it costs them a lot less to manufacture then it should cost the consumer less.

 

I appreciate your opinion and thank you for your input. I however, also have many friends in the manufacturing industry, many of which are engineers and have had 20-40 years of experience themselves. Their opinion is completely different from yours and many people on this board. As I mentioned, I interviewed dozens of engineers, product managers, directors of factories, etc... and the reasons they gave me (as mentioned in my previous post) were the same reasons I have been giving. Is it possible that they are all wrong and everyone else on this forum who keeps arguing with me is right? I highly doubt it, especially given the experience, expertise, and decisions they have to make. Some of them manufacture more than B&O does and some less, but they all keep manufacturing under one roof and manage to thrive and pay their workers well.

 

I will have to agree with you on the Century, it did look and feel cheap and had constant problems with the CD deck (from what I've heard it was some cheap Philips unit that they used?) I was always thinking about getting one because I couldn't afford an Ouverture. I think, however the Beolit 12 is not as well built as the Beosystem 10.  I think it's more than just design of plastics, again the BS8 and Beolit 12 were made in China from Chinese molded plastics perhaps not to B&Os own standards of their higher quality goods. Perhaps molding their own plastics for the unit would have been to cost prohibitive... Like I said, I think it's more than just giving specifications of quality of plastics, if it were the case then the BS8 and Beolit 12 would have the quality of BL5 plastic in it!

moxxey:

Puncher:

As it happens, I don't care for the Beolit 12 either - however it's because I don't like the design nor the materials selected. There is nothing about the one that I saw that intimated poor quality assembly. I could therefore blame the designer - however others seem to like it a lot. 

I agree with that. I also said the same thing - I'm indifferent about the Beolit 12. It doesn't wow me nor put me off. It's definitely not cheap and nasty (I notice that all the supporters of Danish-only manufacturing, all agree that the new products are "cheap and nasty", funny that...) though. Sound is pretty reasonable for such a small product.

The finish is fine, but the design is so-so. I'm going to wait until I see the other colours in March.

 

Perhaps this is because with the use of cheap plastics and metals used in its manufacture, one can tell that it was not Made in Denmark but most likely in China? Perhaps we have a more keen eye? Perhaps we are used to the high quality plastic and metal molding coming out of Struer? 

 

Puncher:

Bentleyman:

Going off looks and 'feel' though however, cheap and nasty came to mind. Not B&O impressive.

 

As it happens, I don't care for the Beolit 12 either - however it's because I don't like the design nor the materials selected. There is nothing about the one that I saw that intimated poor quality assembly. I could therefore blame the designer - however others seem to like it a lot. It appears then that it is a product whose design divides opinion - funnily enough something that B&O designs have a history of doing!

As a comparison, I never liked the Century, I thought it looked completely underwhelming and not unlike something Sharp would offer at the time. They sold very well.

If B&O could produce the Century (which was almost as bad as the BS8 and Beolit 12) in Denmark and sell it for such a low price compared to their other units and it was one of their best selling units and more mass manufactured than others. Then why can't they do that now? Make a similar unit, although improve on the mistake they made last time, and manufacture it in Denmark? If it sold so well then, it surely will not be a horrid seller now... Would probably sell almost as well as the BS8 and Beolit 12. Of course it would cost twice as much as them but the plastics and metals might be better ;-).

Anyway what was wrong with the Beosound 1? That is such an excellent unit, amazing value for money, not made in China. It had some of the best metals and plastics. Was portable, had a CD player and radio, and you could plug in an iPod into the Aux... It sounded and looked way better than the BS8 and Beolit 12... It was the best portable unit that B&O ever built!

It was only 1150 as compared to 895... Hmm for a couple hundred pounds more I can have a unit that's a milliion times better that has a CD player and a radio and was built in Denmark or Czech? That's the best deal I ever heard of and makes the Bs8 seem like a rip off in comparison!

Dkatz:

Perhaps this is because with the use of cheap plastics and metals used in its manufacture, one can tell that it was not Made in Denmark but most likely in China? Perhaps we have a more keen eye? Perhaps we are used to the high quality plastic and metal molding coming out of Struer?

Good Grief man!!! - you still don't get it!

The grade of plastic or polymer and the surface finish (polished or textured) is selected by the designer - it is NOT a function of who or where it was moulded. If Struer moulded the part it would look EXACTLY the same - as specified in the design control document!

I'm afraid posts such as this one only serve to demonstrate your lack of understanding of the components and processes involved.

Dkatz:

Perhaps we have a more keen eye? 

Nope, just more an*l, in more ways than one :)

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

As I said. The gas is on me!

 

There's more were that came from! 

As I said. The gas is on me!

 

There's more were that came from! 

Dkatz:

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

Many say the BS8 easily outperforms the BS1.

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Perhaps this is because with the use of cheap plastics and metals used in its manufacture, one can tell that it was not Made in Denmark but most likely in China? Perhaps we have a more keen eye? Perhaps we are used to the high quality plastic and metal molding coming out of Struer?

Good Grief man!!! - you still don't get it!

The grade of plastic or polymer and the surface finish (polished or textured) is selected by the designer - it is NOT a function of who or where it was moulded. If Struer moulded the part it would look EXACTLY the same - as specified in the design control document!

I'm afraid posts such as this one only serve to demonstrate your lack of understanding of the components and processes involved.

Punch... You're moonlighting? Back to the WED©?!

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

 

Many say the BS8 easily outperforms the BS1.

That is a matter of opinion and not my point. It's not only simply about sound quality but also about how it feels and looks. The BS1 had a lot more metal such as the nice grill and was way more innovative with the way the CD and Antenna popped out.

My point is that the BS1 costs almost the same as the BS8 yet it was not made in China. It cost the company nearly 50 times more in labour per hour to manufacture. The BS8 is made for 50 times less labour cost (I doubt the components are that much more expensive than the BS1, probably less expensive as they are manufactured in China as well) and yet they sell it for only 10% less than the BS1. If the BS8 was less than half the price it is, then I would say that it wasn't a rip off. Although I still would not approve of this move and still would not buy one personally, I would at least feel that the decrease in manufacturing cost is somehow transfering to the consumer!