Dkatz:

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

 

Many say the BS8 easily outperforms the BS1.

That is a matter of opinion and not my point. It's not only simply about sound quality but also about how it feels and looks. The BS1 had a lot more metal such as the nice grill and was way more innovative with the way the CD and Antenna popped out.

My point is that the BS1 costs almost the same as the BS8 yet it was not made in China. It cost the company nearly 50 times more in labour per hour to manufacture. The BS8 is made for 50 times less labour cost (I doubt the components are that much more expensive than the BS1, probably less expensive as they are manufactured in China as well) and yet they sell it for only 10% less than the BS1. If the BS8 was less than half the price it is, then I would say that it wasn't a rip off. Although I still would not approve of this move and still would not buy one personally, I would at least feel that the decrease in manufacturing cost is somehow transfering to the consumer!

 

Perhaps you missed Tournedos' post earlier, where he detailed that the "pre China" product lineup wasn't making enough money to pay dividends, the share price had slumped and no one was buying the product you advocate as the way forward.

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

 

Many say the BS8 easily outperforms the BS1.

That is a matter of opinion and not my point. It's not only simply about sound quality but also about how it feels and looks. The BS1 had a lot more metal such as the nice grill and was way more innovative with the way the CD and Antenna popped out.

My point is that the BS1 costs almost the same as the BS8 yet it was not made in China. It cost the company nearly 50 times more in labour per hour to manufacture. The BS8 is made for 50 times less labour cost (I doubt the components are that much more expensive than the BS1, probably less expensive as they are manufactured in China as well) and yet they sell it for only 10% less than the BS1. If the BS8 was less than half the price it is, then I would say that it wasn't a rip off. Although I still would not approve of this move and still would not buy one personally, I would at least feel that the decrease in manufacturing cost is somehow transfering to the consumer!

 

 

Perhaps you missed Tournedos' post earlier, where he detailed that the "pre China" product lineup wasn't making enough money to pay dividends, the share price had slumped and no one was buying the product you advocate as the way forward.

That's why I talked about the problem with a company going public. They worry about share prices, dividends, etc.. too much. If they hadn't gone public perhaps they wouldn't have worried so much about their share prices going up and about making a huge profit in order to satisfy shareholders, boardmembers, and the like.

However, you yourself said that the BS Century was one of their bestsellers and I know many people who bought a BS1 because they couldn't afford the other B&O products... These are working class people, not the rich snobs you talk about and these products were cheap, not the 10K TVs that Tournedo and others have talked about. B&O was long ago making cheaper products for the masses and making money out of it. The century and BS1 are proof of it, they were B&Os best seling products and if they didn't make any money out of it they wouldn't have sold it.

Having made the decision that they did to outsource, they still could have sold the BS8 for half the price it is selling at which is only 10% of something that costs upto 50 times more in labour cost to make. They could have sold it for half the price of the BS1 and it would have made more senes, they still would have made a huge profit, the consumers would have gotten a cheaper product and in the end more and more people would go out and buy a BS8. I think the only reason they kept the price high is to keep their "image" high as well. Which for me is ridiculous anyways considering the fact that a high end Danish audio manufacturer is making an iPod dock in China for the masses...

The BS3 was half the price of the BS8 and wasn't made in China. Yes it had its shortcomings but it was half the price of a unit that cost 50 times less in labour cost to make. Don't you see that as a problem in itself? Perhaps many of B&Os products were just selling too cheap. Or perhaps their integration and marketing was not upto par and it had nothing to do with insane profit margins based on cheap labour. B&O should have marketed their products better and integrated more Aux In features, advertised the BS3 and BS1 as iPod compatible via a cable, perhaps even included the cable with the unit.... Perhaps they would have sold better and we would still have Danish/Czech made B&O products, selling for the same price as the Chinese made ones... Even a cheap little unit like the BS3 that cost 500 GBP had a better fit and finish than the BS8 or Beolit 12 for half the price and was not made in China for 1/50 of the labour cost!

I think the BS8 and Beolit 12 are a success not because they were made in China, but because they integrated them with the iPod and made a deal with Apple to sell it in their stores (The same reason the A8 Earphones were so successful). If the BS1 had been sold in the apple stores and was integrated, it wouldn't cost that much more to make and would sell for the same as it was selling. Yet it would have been just as succesful as the BS8. But it wasn't about that for B&O, the outsourcing was to make 50 times more money. For example if the BS8 had the same cost in components (but probbaly less as they were made in china), and the same cost in materials (also probably less as they were also made in China), and on top of this the labour cost was 50 times less but they could sell it for about as much as a BS1, then of course the profit would be at least 50 times more per unit in labour cost alone!

What a stupid thread this is! It just goes round and round and round and round in circles

Jonathan:

What a stupid thread this is! It just goes round and round and round and round in circles

 

And Dkatz has to answer every single g*d d*mn reply. And they are starting to get silly - the discussion about pricing, coming from a company that's had to cut back significantly, was struggling to make money and Dkatz is telling us why they went wrong by attempting to increase margins to make more money? Seriously, I'd never employ someone like Dkatz in a million years. He'd drive everyone out of my company.

I find it funny though. Here am I sitting here, as a long standing B&O customer, loving my BS8 and they are telling me how poor it is. I didn't know I so clueless. I only work for some of the biggest tech magazine brands in the world. I knew I was a failure.

Jonathan:

What a stupid thread this is! It just goes round and round and round and round in circles

 

What can you inspect from a 27 year old, with 200 years of experience.

Dkatz:

I think the BS8 and Beolit 12 are a success....

LOL. We should end the thread there.

Dkatz:

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Puncher:

Dkatz:

Tell me B&O was not making any money from the Century or BS1. Tell me why I should buy a BS8 or Beolit12 instead of the BS1 which costs only a little more than the BS8 yet is not made in China but looks and sounds much better and is still portable? B&O did make some reasonably priced excellent products which were made in their factories in Denmark or Czech that justified their costs. If they can make 1000 GBP products made in Denmark and Czech such as the Century and BS1, why would I go and buy a Chinese made unit for 900? This is exactly why I think it is too expensive! The labour cost is 1/50 of what it is in Denmark yet the unit cost to the consumer is only 10% less as compared to the Century and BS1. Of course they're making a hell of a lot more money now... But the lower cost is not being transfered to the consumer!

 

Many say the BS8 easily outperforms the BS1.

That is a matter of opinion and not my point. It's not only simply about sound quality but also about how it feels and looks. The BS1 had a lot more metal such as the nice grill and was way more innovative with the way the CD and Antenna popped out.

My point is that the BS1 costs almost the same as the BS8 yet it was not made in China. It cost the company nearly 50 times more in labour per hour to manufacture. The BS8 is made for 50 times less labour cost (I doubt the components are that much more expensive than the BS1, probably less expensive as they are manufactured in China as well) and yet they sell it for only 10% less than the BS1. If the BS8 was less than half the price it is, then I would say that it wasn't a rip off. Although I still would not approve of this move and still would not buy one personally, I would at least feel that the decrease in manufacturing cost is somehow transfering to the consumer!

 

 

Perhaps you missed Tournedos' post earlier, where he detailed that the "pre China" product lineup wasn't making enough money to pay dividends, the share price had slumped and no one was buying the product you advocate as the way forward.

That's why I talked about the problem with a company going public. They worry about share prices, dividends, etc.. too much. If they hadn't gone public perhaps they wouldn't have worried so much about their share prices going up and about making a huge profit in order to satisfy shareholders, boardmembers, and the like.

However, you yourself said that the BS Century was one of their bestsellers and I know many people who bought a BS1 because they couldn't afford the other B&O products... These are working class people, not the rich snobs you talk about and these products were cheap, not the 10K TVs that Tournedo and others have talked about. B&O was long ago making cheaper products for the masses and making money out of it. The century and BS1 are proof of it, they were B&Os best seling products and if they didn't make any money out of it they wouldn't have sold it.

Having made the decision that they did to outsource, they still could have sold the BS8 for half the price it is selling at which is only 10% of something that costs upto 50 times more in labour cost to make. They could have sold it for half the price of the BS1 and it would have made more senes, they still would have made a huge profit, the consumers would have gotten a cheaper product and in the end more and more people would go out and buy a BS8. I think the only reason they kept the price high is to keep their "image" high as well. Which for me is ridiculous anyways considering the fact that a high end Danish audio manufacturer is making an iPod dock in China for the masses...

The BS3 was half the price of the BS8 and wasn't made in China. Yes it had its shortcomings but it was half the price of a unit that cost 50 times less in labour cost to make. Don't you see that as a problem in itself? Perhaps many of B&Os products were just selling too cheap. Or perhaps their integration and marketing was not upto par and it had nothing to do with insane profit margins based on cheap labour. B&O should have marketed their products better and integrated more Aux In features, advertised the BS3 and BS1 as iPod compatible via a cable, perhaps even included the cable with the unit.... Perhaps they would have sold better and we would still have Danish/Czech made B&O products, selling for the same price as the Chinese made ones... Even a cheap little unit like the BS3 that cost 500 GBP had a better fit and finish than the BS8 or Beolit 12 for half the price and was not made in China for 1/50 of the labour cost!

Forget about the company going public - that's a red Herring, they need to generate profits regardless (to invest in the business and new product development). The pricing of B&O products is a completely different debate - is £16K a reasonable price for a TV or are they overcharging, do they need to charge £16K for a TV or else they go out of business? If they are charging the prices they do and making a fortune then things would be rosier, if they have to charge the prices they do and things still aren't going well then they are in trouble!

Forget the fit and finish, that is entirely B&O's specification.

B&O need to generate profit and the old way simply wasn't doing it!

Take a deep breath, recognise what the company is attempting to do, admit that the BS8 & Beolit 12, whether you love or hate them, are a step toward the future and recognise that the money generated by these new product may well fund the next generation BL5's whereas beforehand there may not have ever been a next generation anything!

                                                         The End?

Perhaps this thread should be outsourced.....

Bv7Mk3:

 

 

                                                         The End?

Please!!!!!!!!

moxxey:

Jonathan:

What a stupid thread this is! It just goes round and round and round and round in circles

 

And Dkatz has to answer every single g*d d*mn reply. And they are starting to get silly - the discussion about pricing, coming from a company that's had to cut back significantly, was struggling to make money and Dkatz is telling us why they went wrong by attempting to increase margins to make more money? Seriously, I'd never employ someone like Dkatz in a million years. He'd drive everyone out of my company.

I find it funny though. Here am I sitting here, as a long standing B&O customer, loving my BS8 and they are telling me how poor it is. I didn't know I so clueless. I only work for some of the biggest tech magazine brands in the world. I knew I was a failure.

The point is that B&O should make money off their products and I am sure they did off the BS1 and BS3, but not nearly the profit margin they are making of the BS8 which costs almost twice as much as the BS3 and almost as much as the BS1. My point is they could have made a huge amount of money selling the BS8 for half the price, they didn't transfer their 50 times savings in labour manufacturing cost to the consumer. They sold it for almost the same price as the BS1 yet made a hell of a lot more profit.

From a business perspective it's great, but from a consumer standpoint it's a ripoff that a company should be so greedy as to charge such a ridiculous price for something that cost them a lot less than their equivilent danish or czech made unit to make yet don't charge much less!

The forum wouldn't go on for as long as it had if everyone had answered and replied to every question that I posed as I did to theirs! The fact that I am repeating myself constantly and repeating my questions is because most people have only answered the few they felt would justify their point rather than any others that might jeapordize it!

Søren Mexico:

Jonathan:

What a stupid thread this is! It just goes round and round and round and round in circles

 

What can you inspect from a 27 year old, with 200 years of experience.

 

I never claimed to have had 200 years of experience and my age does not indicate intellect, experience, or education. There are 27 year olds that know more about outsourcing, manufacturing and global economics more than 50 year olds if they had for example studied the subject as a masters degree as I had. Likewise there are 50 year olds who think they know a great deal because they work in the industry, but everyone in the industry has a differing oppinion. I have talked to many companies that didn't outsource and some that did as well and asked about their motives, etc... I did not get my information or my points out of my ass as some have implied here. I have conducted much research and many interviews on the subject and wrote my dissertation on it. That's more than most people have done, even with their experience. Everyone's experience is different, so is everyones opinion!

dkatz! enough already!

Bv7Mk3:

                                                         The End?

The end has not yet been written © Cyan Worlds ...

... but I'd like to know, what has B&O to say on this issue?

How are the working conditions in this particular factory where Beosound 8 and Beolit 12 are assembled?

Are the wages an issue or is it more a question of production capacity (Well, let's start 10,000 Beosound 8s. oops we need 20,000 more next week! or: Let's start install capacities for 50,000 Beolit 12s. Oops: We only need 30,000. A bigger factory is able to diversify on other products ...

Is there any competent person to answer?

Maybe Dkatz knows, he studied a Masters!!

I feel like this will never end!!  

I have lost interest now, B&O WERE IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE! THAT IS WHY THEY NEEDED A PRODUCT THAT SOLD, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE MADE BS8 & BS12!

They couldnt keep producing products in Denmark!  

Why do you keep insisting that they can produce products in Denmark when they have had a tough 5 years, people arent willing to spend thousands on products anymore.  You cannot run a business relying on these people, you keep mentioning rolls royce and bentley these are cars not tv's and the companies aren't owned by the original people either!  Is that because they are so profitable, they sold them on?? No!!  Its because the car manufacturers want the best brands out there, no matter how much it loses!

you keep insisting that people on the forum skip over your replies, you are skipping over the big picture also!! B&O would only need to outsource because they had to.  They couldn't keep going if they didn't change, end of story!!

I am glad they are looking at new strategies, hopefully meaning they will be here for years to come.  Would the chosen few be happier if they went into bankrupcy, making everything in denmark?

I have numerous apple products and I think are excellently built, I could post some pictures but lets not get into what i've got again!!

Get a grip on reality guys, if you don't like it vote with your feet!! 

Nickyg63:

 

Get a grip on reality guys, if you don't like it vote with your feet!! 

Absolutely. It's the best way. For me the personal interest in a dock speaker is 0. If I was a collector I would buy them, but I'm not a collector. 

When I need portable music, I use headphones with my iPhone. When I listen and enjoy my music properly, I sit down in my sofa, pour a beer and a whisky, or a glass of red, and relax. Enjoying the wonderful sound of the BL5's. Ahhhh. What pleasure and relaxing sensation.

Some people might enjoy the BS8 or Blit12, but it's not for me. I can say that without even listening to it. It's the same with all iThing docks, be it B&O or B&W.

Saying that I don't think I've heard anyone who actually bought a BS8 say anything negative about it.

I don't like outsourcing, but that's not only for B&O, it's for Europe, USA etc for us "westerners" It's going to become a huge social problem in the future.

And we should keep this thread going. It's sort of the BS8 and Beolit12 of Beoworld. The forum has been in a recession post wise, we need it back on it's feet!

Dkatz:

The forum wouldn't go on for as long as it had if everyone had answered and replied to every question that I posed as I did to theirs! The fact that I am repeating myself constantly and repeating my questions is because most people have only answered the few they felt would justify their point rather than any others that might jeapordize it!

Pot, kettle... I haven't seen much agreement even on the basic premise that B&O is a categorical "high end manufacturer". 15 pages and 350+ posts later you keep building all your arguments on that and using some such mom & pop company for comparison, over and over again as if you didn't even read what others write.

I see that about one page ago you once again asked why B&O doesn't outsource everything if China is so great. Oh for heaven's sake!

***

Time for me to bail out I guess. Life is too short.

QED

So, using all you learned during your Masters Degree, how would you recommend making more money from existing products having just lost 523 Million DKK in the year 2009 due to slumping sales? How much would you add to the retail price of a BS1 to turn it around?

You can ask your friends in manufacturing too if you like.

Don't stop it now, at the very least it's funny.

Puncher:

QED

So they made 27 million DKK last year. Whooppeee!

For me ...

It's time to say goodbye ...

to this thread

Nickyg63 – B&O sold many products for less than many thousands as you say. Look at the BS1, BS3, BSCentury, they were all sold in the 500-1100 GBP range, were all portable and were similar in concept to the BS8 and BS12. B&O priced these products this way because they thought they knew they could make a profit on each one that was substantial even though they were not made in China. However, even though the BS3 was not successful the BSCentury was highly successful and the BS1 didn't do too bad either. All of these units were much more mass manufactured than their other products, yet the BS1 had a fit and finish, plus CD player and radio (that were extremely cool and innovative in the way they opened that the BS8 lacks), aux input to input an iPod or other device and excellent sound quality. They were able to sell these products for this much, the problem was that they wanted to sell more. My point is that had they really wanted to, they could have started mass producing  in their own factory in Struer or Czech for example as they did with the BS1, BS3 and BS Century. The price difference between a BS1 and BS8 is only a couple hundred pounds yet one cost a hell of a lot less to make than the other. My point is that they could have made it in Europe and charged a couple hundred more. If the BS1 had been an “iPod dock” sold at Apple Stores with some licensing deal, then it would have been just as if not more successful than the BS8 and yet made in Denmark or Czech!

Tournedos – Well maybe that's the difference. People who buy the BS8 and Beolit12 don't consider the B&O a high end manufacturer? Since you say that the people against me don't agree with that, that in itself answers its question...

I think that B&O don't outsource their higher end products for the same reasons that other manufacturers like Canon and Nikon keep their professional digital cameras production in Japan in their own factory, same with Sony and Panasonic electronics the high end laptops are made in Japan, etc... Why is this? It's because they know that professionals need the most reliable and best build quality available and that they can't achieve it by building it in someone elses factory in another country where they don't have the same level of QC. All things considered, if like many on this forum state China's quality is on the same level or better than Japan or Europe's, and if nobody really checks where things are made as many have stated, then why don't these manufacturers produce everything in China? They would make a lot more profit... It's for the same reason that all the manufacturers I talked to that don't outsource give me which I mentioned in previous posts about quality control, higher grade materials, etc... This is my point about it not being simply about specifying materials and design and having another company manufacture in China to the same standards, if it were like this, all professional and high end goods would be made in China as well and the companies would make even a higher profit margin. And no, not all the high end professional products are low volume manufacture: those Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic all mass produce their high end cameras, video equipment, camera products as well, one can even say that Louis Vuitton is mass produced as they make hundreds of thousands of wallets and bags every year... and they are part of a huge conglomerate LVMH. Miele, Fujitsu-Siemens in Germany and many others who mass manufacture. So yes even big or mid-size corporations which mass manufacture often realize that if it is a high end or professional product it must be made in their own factory in their own country in order to assure a high level of quality that they feel they simply cannot achieve in China. So is it possible that all these companies are utterly wrong and the few people on this forum who thinks that China can manufacture to that degree or better are right?

Puncher – According to you and Moxxey the BS8 and Beolit 12 are such a great success to B&Os profits (which I am not arguing at all, I am in complete agreement with this). However, from looking at your link I can see the stocks are down... Really sad. My solution would have been as I posted above to Nickyg63. The key to the success of the BS8 and Beolit 12 are not the fact that they are built in China but the fact that they have iPod integration, and have a deal to sell them at Apple stores. That alone guarantees high sales of these items. If they were 1100 as the BS1 instead of 900 as the BS8 is, then people would still buy them because when you're paying a thousand pounds, another couple hundred won't matter that much, especially if you can have it made in Denmark or Struer. Perhaps if the BS1 and BS3 had the kind of integration and deal with Apple that the BS8 has then they would have been just as successful! The BS1 in my book is a much better product, and has an Aux in which is enough for me although it's not a dock...

now it's just getting silly

sorry, it's just too funny!

Every company make a note. If you want to survive, increase your prices by over 20% because your customers won't mind paying that little bit extra for you not cutting costs...

Best strategy I've ever heard!