Bentleyman:

I wouldn't start trying to get clever if I were you. You're really not gonna get very far with that 'strategy'

Nothing clever about it. Just an observation.

linder:

Moxxey, Are you implying that all of us Beoworlders who went to the B&O store and bought a Beolit 12 this week without a demo are over 35?

Where was that implied linder?

Linder, the Beolit 12 is one of the first products as part of the new B&O Play strategy to target the younger generation, which is why it's in the Apple Stores. To meet that demand, B&O have to mass manufacture, which is why they chose China. We've heard Tue himself say that B&O need to be able to fulfil demand presented through the Apple Stores which is a reason we're having this discussion. Old school B&O enthusiasts may not like it, but the Play direction is to try and bring in a new audience, a new breed of custom. Custom that will, potentially move up to other B&O products.

We all know that once you start buying B&O, you end up buying more B&O. That's what B&O are trying to do with Play.

The problem that B&O have now is that there are not enough old-school "don't need to question the price" customers who will service their future. There are fewer people walking in to their stores to purchase BV7s, without thinking through the purchasing decision. People are getting more clued up, people are starting to look around and see competitor products (TVs etc) with an equally impressive picture, for a fifth of the price. Those competitors just get cheaper, and cheaper.

The situation will be far worse in five years time and this is why B&O are attempting to address it via Play and the forthcoming low-end Beovision 13 or whatever it will be called. No doubt manufactured in China!

The whole discussion is going way off target as we're now assuming other, more expensive, products will be outsourced. We're assuming it's some kind of slippery slope. Just getting ahead of ourselves.

B&O need to address a difference audience, a younger audience, they need to produce more product and more quickly, to do that they've gone with the Chinese mass-manufactured option.

Some people won't like it, but these people don't really get on with me either, it appears :)

bayerische:

While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

Well, there's a new speaker that will sit above the BL5 later this year.

moxxey:

linder:

Moxxey, Are you implying that all of us Beoworlders who went to the B&O store and bought a Beolit 12 this week without a demo are over 35?

Where was that implied linder?

Linder, the Beolit 12 is one of the first products as part of the new B&O Play strategy to target the younger generation, which is why it's in the Apple Stores. To meet that demand, B&O have to mass manufacture, which is why they chose China. We've heard Tue himself say that B&O need to be able to fulfil demand presented through the Apple Stores which is a reason we're having this discussion. Old school B&O enthusiasts may not like it, but the Play direction is to try and bring in a new audience, a new breed of custom. Custom that will, potentially move up to other B&O products.

We all know that once you start buying B&O, you end up buying more B&O. That's what B&O are trying to do with Play.

The problem that B&O have now is that there are not enough old-school "don't need to question the price" customers who will service their future. There are fewer people walking in to their stores to purchase BV7s, without thinking through the purchasing decision. People are getting more clued up, people are starting to look around and see competitor products (TVs etc) with an equally impressive picture, for a fifth of the price. Those competitors just get cheaper, and cheaper.

The situation will be far worse in five years time and this is why B&O are attempting to address it via Play and the forthcoming low-end Beovision 13 or whatever it will be called. No doubt manufactured in China!

The whole discussion is going way off target as we're now assuming other, more expensive, products will be outsourced. We're assuming it's some kind of slippery slope. Just getting ahead of ourselves.

B&O need to address a difference audience, a younger audience, they need to produce more product and more quickly, to do that they've gone with the Chinese mass-manufactured option.

Some people won't like it, but these people don't really get on with me either, it appears :)

Sorry moxxey.  I was being facetious.  I do get it and believe they should be going faster but I know they have limitations as in any business.  Products that are IOS and iTunes compatible are well over an annual 2 billion USD business.  Heritage is nothing more than a fancy marketing ploy in many cases. Consumers often know when they are being duped by a logo or a brand name.  For Bang and Olufsen, their brand is important as long as there is quality that underpins the brand.  The Beolit 12 is good quality at the right price.

I do think there was a Beoworld effect a few days ago.  How come so many people bought the Beolit 12 so quickly?  It wasn't like a new Apple product introduction but they sold quickly.  Maybe the marketing is better than I thought.

moxxey:

bayerische:

While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

Well, there's a new speaker that will sit above the BL5 later this year.

I was so busy typing a response, I missed that one.  I'll demo that one first.  Thanks for the news.

moxxey:

Bentleyman:

I wouldn't start trying to get clever if I were you. You're really not gonna get very far with that 'strategy'

Nothing clever about it. Just an observation.

FYI moxxey I lived & worked in London and St. Albans, Hertfordshire for a number of years between 1996 to 2005. I bought numerous properties in those locations during the late 1990's. As you know, the UK property market was shooting into the stratosphere during that period. I then sold them all by 2006

Financially, I did alright, if you know what I mean

I had a couple of years living in Sweden before returning to the Rochdale area (which is where i'm originally from) but dont worry I could move anywhere I pleased, and at any time too.

I now live in a property which would cost probably close on a million quid in London (or indeed in Bath) but it cost me a fraction of that up here...as I was in a position to pay cash, I dont pay any mortgage or any rent of course.

Now, I dont know your circumstances, but i'll wager you either pay a ridiculously high mortgage or a equally ridiculous rent being a mid 30's guy living in Bath.

If you're paying a mortgage, it's not the best of times to be in the market, and it doesnt look good for the forseeable future either.(as i'm sure you're aware of) Some commentators are talking about a 25% correction in UK property prices, especially in the southern counties. Even if your property is currently holding it's value, it's a long, long way from the huge annual increases that I enjoyed in the late 90's and early 2000's in the south east.

Now, with the benefit of hindsight, your comment about not taking me seriously with a username of Bentleyman because I'm currently living in Rochdale doesnt seem very clever, now that I've filled you in on a few facts,  does it?

Apologies to all others that this post is nothing to do with this thread, but when you get a smart-ars e trying to be funny when he dont know the facts, you just got to set the Beogram straight once in a while

Bentleyman,

I know your story!

10%

(aka Astonman from Oldham)

Dkatz:

 

 

Nickeyg63 – I would disagree that the gap in superiority has diminished. They are not charging that much more for many products as they were in the early 90s as I demonstrated earlier in this post. Look at some of the prices of a Beosound Ouverture and the Beosound 3200, not that much more expensive, especially calculating inflation into it... I think it is a great price for a great product! The problem is obviously many people think it's too expensive but I certainly don't.

 

 

Where I am coming from is, when i had my avant dvd it was far superior than any other crt tv on the market!  Now when i take a look around john lewis the gap that was once there has deminished!  The quality of a top end samsung tv for £700 is as good as a bv7-40, If it wasnt for masterlink I think I would buy one!!  I find it hard to justify £10k for a bv7-40 I know that its finished better and includes a dvd/br but seriously lets say £8k difference.

You used beosound 3200/3000 as an example, lets say with speakers you are looking at £3k-£4k new??  I know for that you can get a far better sounding hi-fi!  But the reason why we are here is that B&O are also lifestyle products that are different and for me a talking point when people come over,  I think that B&O are diversifying and for a company that is very brave!  I hope they get good results from these products, so they continue to produce amazing products for us.  They need people to be brand aware, and say one day these people may buy a bv7 or equivelant.  

Why on this forum do we continue to knock their sales strategy, I want B&O to live long and strong.  Ok so we understand that some of the new stuff isnt to everyones tastes, thats life lets get used to it and embrace that they are trying to sell products to more people.  I dont have a business degree but I am sure that is an excellent business ethic?  

Ok so the brand is producing products made in china, thats a brave decision that ensures people in denmark are still in jobs!!  The brand has been through a tough few years, I love to see my local showroom alive with people looking and admiring the products.  Moxxey is right the bs8 is great for the price and it is still a premium product as its higher priced than any of its rivals, now if they sold it for £199 maybe they would be cheapening the brand.

We are all here because we love B&O, so lets not criticise the fact they are trying to survive by diversifying!! In my book its diverify or die!! People who can spend £15k for a tv are few and far between!

I love how these threads degenerate into I've got more money than you crap. BORING.

I also seem to recall that Bentley's are now all just tarted up VW's. I gess some people have more money than sense.

I also recall how b&o have been farming out production for years - didn't those awful plasticky beocentres of the 80's and 90's come from Japan ?

Bentleyman:

Now, with the benefit of hindsight, your comment about not taking me seriously with a username of Bentleyman because I'm currently living in Rochdale doesnt seem very clever, now that I've filled you in on a few facts,  does it?

Well, you assumed those "facts", didn't you? No, I'm not paying a ridiculous amount for anything, having moved down here from the North East. I came down here in 2000, been in the same place in centre of town and, in 2000, prices were still reasonable. So, managed to get something decent, very centrally located, for a very good price - and kept it.

So, don't assume facts.

But would I rather live in Bath or drive around Rochdale in a Bentley and make a point by writing in blue text? Tricky one, that.

However, it's the people in your age group, who've gone around buying up properties, who have pushed up the prices, causing rents to increase. These are also the age group living it up, being able to buy above their station, drive the cars they do and walk in to a B&O store and walk out with a BV9. The future will not be this arrogant age group, it will be the <35 that will drive the future of B&O, and the UK for that matter.

But then, like you, I'm now making assumptions. And am way off dicussion. And, as Flappo says, this has completely disintegrated.

Flappo, you are right though, B&O, in the 70s/80s, did you to farm out some of their production to Japan. I remember as a kid, my uncle, who ran a B&O store in Middlesbrough (iIt's gone now..) warning my father than some of the hi-fi wasn't true B&O.

moxxey:

bayerische:

While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

Well, there's a new speaker that will sit above the BL5 later this year.

First time I hear that.

Hopefully that will happend, but I don't believe it before I see it.

moxxey:

bayerische:

While these might be great little products they are not on par with what the brand stands for. These are "petty" products. We need fireworks, like the BL5!

Well, there's a new speaker that will sit above the BL5 later this year.

First time I hear that.

Hopefully that will happend, but I don't believe it before I see it.

moxxey:

Well, you assumed those "facts", didn't you?

No, I hadnt assumed anything actually, until you started trying to be clever and amusing by trying to suggest that a username such as mine and 'Rochdale' cant possibly fit together!

Dont try and deny it mate, it's down here in black & white!

moxxey:

But would I rather live in Bath or drive around Rochdale in a Bentley and make a point by writing in blue text? Tricky one, that.

Do you see what I mean....? I refer you to the above comment.

moxxey:

However, it's the people in your age group, who've gone around buying up properties,

I'm 39 Moxxey, only a few years older than yourself!  D'oh! Wrong again!

Perhaps this would be a good time for you to just 'get your coat'?

Flappo:

I love how these threads degenerate into I've got more money than you crap. BORING.

I also seem to recall that Bentley's are now all just tarted up VW's. I gess some people have more money than sense.

This was NOT my desire or intention at all. But if you read the unprovoked comment from moxxey attempting to be Oscar Wilde witty - I'm simply not going to leave that alone and let him walk off thinking how clever he was - especially as he was making some sweeping assumptions that he really shouldn't, when he isn't in possession of any facts!

Yes, Bentleys today I'm not keen on at all. I wouldn't buy a new one today. The one I have at the moment is a proper one, made by Rolls Royce Motors in Crewe in 1988. But this thread was nothing to do with cars, but due to my username, moxxey thought it terribly smart and clever to start drawing inference between my choice of name and the town in which I am currenly living. It's all down in writing on this thread if you need to verify that!

Maybe a personal slanging match should be taken offline!

Puncher:

Maybe a personal slanging match should be taken offline!

I don't agree.

Whilst there may heve been a few digs & jibes, it's an interesting discussion based around some opposing views. I think the political/social undertones behind some of the statements add to the debate.

Yes, I agree folkdeejay.

I'm done talking with moxxey, so I vote that either this thread finishes, or if anyone wants to get back on track and give us their views on their perceived merits (or otherwise) of B&O outsourcing, overall this thread has been very good, with some well made and valid views from both sides of the outsourcing debate.

E.g. What do people think about B&O developing 2 distinct ranges of products - B&O Play affordable items for more mid-market, younger consumers to be introduced to the brand and, hopefully to aspire to 'top line' range B&O products such as expensive TV's, Hi Fi and Speakers?

folkdeejay:

I don't agree.

 

Whilst there may heve been a few digs & jibes, it's an interesting discussion based around some opposing views. 

It was but it's not now. They both have more money than sense and should have left this sort of exchange behind in the playground!

Me too! Don't pee in the punch, Pounch! We need some excitement!

But, it would be nice to get back on the rails...

I had to reread the OP's OP again to try and figure how this all started. Why was this the OP's first ever post after four+ years of dormancy? What exactly was his MO, issue, or general statement?

The closest conclusion was:

Dkatz:

"The bottom line is that nearly all companies outsource to fill their pockets if this wasn't the case they would charge 10 times less than they did before they outsourced but in fact they are charging the same or more whilst earning 10 times or more profit and it is for this principal that I refuse to buy goods outsourced to third world countries."

So, the reason seems to be that "nearly all" companies outsource based on increased profits.

Last time I checked, increasing profits was the first lecture in BIZ101. The second lecture was about survival... OH! Wait a minute! That was the same lecture!!! It has been a while... Sorry!

joeyboygolf:

It was but it's not now. They both have more money than sense and should have left this sort of exchange behind in the playground!

Thats a bit below the belt joeyboygolf....

As i've just said, either this thread should end, or carry on talking about the original topic, outsourcing. Members usernames, where they live, what car they may or may not drive, and the colour of their post-text (!) should not be any part of this thread.

If you care to notice, it was moxxey unfortunately that started making wise cracks about all those trivial and completely irrelevant things - but with a bit of luck he'll stop that now and perhaps get back to debating the thread subject.

I have to agree with you Bentleyman, personal issues shouldn't come into it. Anyone fancy a dig with me being a student? Might as well get it off your chest! It's surprising to see how many egos need rubbing.

Back to the topic in hand I reckon

adamhornsby:

I have to agree with you Bentleyman, personal issues shouldn't come into it. Anyone fancy a dig with me being a student?

Agreed!

As a student and a member of Beoworld, i'm guessing you are one of the new generation of customers B&O are seeking to capture with the Play range?

Do you like the direction of B&O Play (i.e. entry level affordable smaller products like BS8 and Beolit12)? Do you think B&O should have 2 distinct strands of product? - entry level stuff aimed at the younger custom/mid market as well as top end stuff, running in tandem with each other? Do you think that is a good strategy?

Having thought more about it myself, I think it could be a good strategy, but hope that by doing so it doesnt hurt the 'prestigious' image B&O still enjoy. I think this is a significant danger. If it did B&O are in danger of just merging into the mainstream and I think will then struggle massively to compete with much bigger, richer competitors in the market-place. The effect of this would be a de-valueing of the brand - not something I'd like to see.

What do you reckon? 

Regarding China's inabilities to make decent quality products , they don't seem to be harming Apple's reputaion. They continually sweep the board at the annual PC magazine awards , have been for the last so many years - and one thing people always mention is the superb build quality..

All B&O need to do is get a brilliant quality control guy in charge like Tim Cook.

Some decent software writers would be a good idea too.

I found this on another website , interesting stuff regarding China;

“By 2004, Apple had largely turned to foreign manufacturing. Guiding that decision was Apple’s operations expert, Timothy D. Cook, who replaced Mr. Jobs as chief executive last August, six weeks before Mr. Jobs’s death… For Mr. Cook, the focus on Asia ‘came down to two things,’ said one former high-ranking Apple executive. Factories in Asia ‘can scale up and down faster’ and ‘Asian supply chains have surpassed what’s in the U.S.’ The result is that ‘we can’t compete at this point,’ the executive said.”

“Another critical advantage for Apple was that China provided engineers at a scale the United States could not match. Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company’s analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States,” Duhigg and Bradsher report. “In China, it took 15 days.”

Flappo:

I found this on another website , interesting stuff regarding China;

Thanks Flappo...

Exactly!