I can think of two metrics that Flappo might have been thinking of:

1/ Market capitalisation 

2/ Cash on hand ... with last week's nonsense in Washington, as the world watched the US government start to run out of cash, there was a point where Apple's cash reserves exceeded the US Treasury's ... of course now they have been authorised to borrow more money the situation has been rectified (please I am NOT starting a political debate - this thread is hot enough already!) 

Good points guys. I think the reason why we do compare Apple to B&O is that the Apple computer design wise etc is the B&O computer equivalent plus the more I use and look at the design of the iPhone4, I can't help but instantly think the this IS the phone that B&O should have designed.

We talk iTunes etc because of its popularity. 10 years whilst at the University of Manchester, it was the choice of the young students - way back then. Its like back in the day complaining that you wouldn't want to put a VHS cassette in your B&O VHS video recorder! It is simply the way the market is at the moment.

Sales wise, I believe B&O sold under 10,000 of their BeoSound 6 Samsung - as a comparison to date, over 350MILLION iPods have been sold.

Razlaw i'm sure Moxxey certainly did not mean to offend as he comes acrosss as a very decent and knowledgeable guy!

And yes I love B&O as i've said before they've been in the family since 1979. I love the BV10 and would love one. However, hifi wise i think the whole market out there is too unstable at the moment and definately for the unforeseen future. Certainly the young and indeed myself have adapted iTunes so whether it is a case of building beautiful systems around the iPhone/MacBook maybe that is the way it is. World famous Technics brand does not even exist anymore due to Panasonic stating that 'There was zero market left in hifi as all of their customers had moved onto home cinemas for which they could play their CDs and dock their iPods'.

Maybe i will buy a BV television and Apple Tv and use that for my music source and i'm sure that will be fantastic but staying away from their hifis in uncertain times doesn't mean that I don't love the brand as much as I used to...

Apple is the second largest company in the World in terms of market cap

Is is amazing the direction this thread has taken.  For awhile in this thread, the discussion was about whether someone liked or disliked Beosound 5 HD.  Also some members had reccomendations as to what B&O should have done with Beosound 5 such as touch screen, translucent aluminum, and others.  These are all valid things to discuss and I am sure that B&O does consider input from Beoworld members in this forum.  You may not like the decisions made by B&O but they have other reasons when they consider marketing and manufacturing choices.

There have been serveral B&O products that I absolutely did not like.  However I never mention those in this forum too much because these preferences are mostly personal taste.  I don't like some of the new products also even though some of those products sell very well.  Should B&O do more with Apple integration into their products?  Maybe...  The tech world is littered with disasterous ideas and products.  Apple is doing well now but has a checkered history.  I had the 20 Anniversary Mac which was one of the most expensive Macs ever made and I hated it.  Subsequently I purchased a Windows PC.  When Steve returned, I started to think different and returned to Apple products.  I also had the first version of the iPod.  I ordered it on the day it was introduced even though I was not sure what it was.  I guess I was a fanboy at the time.  The first iPod was very expensive but was the better sounding that the current iPods/iPhones.  I still like iTunes, iPod, and now iPhone and iPad.  Apple has surely redefined that element of the music listening market and is doing well.

I agree Beosound 5 should have Airplay but I don't think I would use it much.  I rip my CDs in the FLAC format and download high quality music from sites like HDtracks.  If Apple had the option in iTunes to purchase lossless music, I would use iTunes as well.

In my opinion, Beosound 5 is the best sounding music system that Bang and Olufsen makes.  I listen to it more than any system I have ever owned and the best part is my wife likes it.  My wife over the years has generally ignored the B&O music players I had.  She used the TV and the radio but never played a CD.  She ripped about 20 CDs and has loaded the files into the Beomaster 5.  This is not one of those wife factor remarks.  She is a writer and photographer and has high end Macs to do her work.

This is just a few of my thoughts on the subject.  I would hope some consideration and civility would return to this thread.

 

 

 

Razlaw:

However I must make an exception and respond to Moxxey, as he seems to have an insatiable need to respond directly to my post in a personal way...

I thought you were a professional lawyer Razlaw? 

Paul Winn:

Razlaw i'm sure Moxxey certainly did not mean to offend as he comes acrosss as a very decent and knowledgeable guy!

Thanks Paul. Totally correct, which is the reason for the above post. As professionals, we should view this as it is - a discussion forum. A debate which probably enables us to be a bit stronger, a bit more personal than we would be in real life. I don't know Razlaw from Adam and, therefore, the responses aren't personal at all. Simply a reply to a point made in a post. That's all a forum is, a few posts. I can assure you I go to bed at night, whatever the reply, and not worry about what people think of me through a forum, positive or negative :)

I'm just about to put a positive reply to the discussion forum about the superb Beocom 5. I do, indeed, add positive replies. B&O's PR can now sleep at night.

You're welcome Moxxey. And don't worry about the PR guys, PR people don't have souls (Years of working in Marketing & Radio has taught me that :) :) ;)

In Los Angeles on business currently, where it is tropical hot.

This weekend I drove up to the B&O Rodeo Drive store. And it is . . .  gone.

But asking around, it turns out they have moved, only a few blocks away. I walked up in the heat to look at the new Encore. " You should have been here for the Encore debut " the store rep told me. I explained that I am a only a visitor, and would like a demonstration, if possible.

Many minutes later, I'm told that the Encore pincode had apparently been changed and that the device was thus locked out. " Maybe next week " came the explanation, sounding as they say " Iffy."

" Perhaps you could tell me how you have the Encore connected ? " I asked. WI-FI I was told, adding " But nothing works right now. " Yes, I concur appreciating the problem.

" By the way, what WI-FI router are you using ? " and the rep excuses to go check for a few minutes.

Coming back " The only one that will work with this unit. " I wa surprised, given the advertising. " The only one . . as in ? "  Another few minutes to check. ( I was beginning to feel like I was causing trouble being here asking too many questions ).

" Cisco. Cisco is the only router that will work with this unit. " (  First shoe drops ).  " And what is your price for the Cisco WIFI router you mention ? "

" Uh, actually we don't sell it " ( Second shoe falls ). " Do you know the price ? " I ask.  " Nope " ( Long pause ) " Perhaps you have a link ? " I ask. 

" No, you have to contact them. " That was that. I thanked him and left.

At least the Rimowa store down the street had some bargains, given the CHF-USD exchange. I purchased a new titanium spinner, but in hindsight I admit this was a concession-letdown purchase. 

No excuse for the appalling service I know, but when you told the sales you were only a visitor he clearly saw 'time waster' stamped on your forehead.

I repeat this is no excuse for the standard of service you received or the dreadful lack of information or facts he seemed to possess, but as, in his opinion,  you were never going to buy anything from that store, that was it as far as he was concerned.

Trouble with this attitude though apart from the total lack of any professionalism, is that it tarnishes the whole B&O brand and its customer service image. 

Kokomo:

No excuse for the appalling service I know, but when you told the sales you were only a visitor he clearly saw 'time waster' stamped on your forehead.

I was in our local store the other day and an old couple spent about 20 minutes asking about a BV10. At the end of the demo the couple said "we're convinced, we want to purchase this TV". When my dealer pushed further, the couple said "we'll get it from our local store, we're just here visiting the town!".

The problem is that most consumers don't understand - rightly so I must add - that each B&O store is a franchise. They simply think it's a chain of stores representing the brand, so you often get people walk in off the street and then go and buy locally. I'd estimate our local store receives more of these visitors than local customers. They are used to this. I must add though, they treat every customer the same. You never know whether these customers may be planning a move ot the local area, for example.

Sadly I guess that if you're from outside the States and you visit a local store, they'll instantly realise you're very unlikely to walk out with an Encore and you must understand that they're not in the business to serve everyone with free answers - some dealer will be fine with this (see above), others may take exception. I guess it simply depends on how many non-local visitors they get asking/demanding answers each day!

BeoSound 5 Encore already has 'known software faults' which are being worked on..  

Lee

 

 

9 LEE:

BeoSound 5 Encore already has 'known software faults' which are being worked on..  

Back to us being beta testers for B&O products again. Lee, a lot of my B&O frustration is sourced from s/w issues I've had with my products (particularly BV7-40) over the last three years. Some Beoworlders view this frustration as negativity against the brand. However, when we're paying top dollar for these products, we shouldn't expect software issues. 

The Beocom 5 is a classic. I used it for a good 3-4 months and every time I put the phone on to speaker, it hung up on the other person. Basic basic phone functionality (phone + speaker != hanging up on caller)! Luckily it's all sorted now and I love the phone - recommended to all - but it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Before owning the Beocom 5's in the office, we used £80 BT phones without a single software issue (and, they had speakers and answerphones). Quality wasn't as good, sure, but they were flawless in operation.

Oh well. Hopefully they get the Encore s/w faults fixed and do not introduce new issues with the updated software, like we've found in the s/w 10.x for the BS3, where the Sky box won't come out of sleep, automatically.

9 LEE:

BeoSound 5 Encore already has 'known software faults' which are being worked on..  

Lee

Wasn't aware of that...say more.

9 LEE:

BeoSound 5 Encore already has 'known software faults' which are being worked on..  

Lee

 

 

 

Ours is off display, refuse to sell products that don't work :( (kept losing network connection)

Customers and us  are Looking forward to a fully working version :)

StUrrock:

Ours is off display, refuse to sell products that don't work :( (kept losing network connection)

Customers and us  are Looking forward to a fully working version :)

 

That's is a pathetic state of affairs for this product.

All my B&O gear is a few years old and my TV is still the Beovision 3. I could afford a B&O flat screen but when I do change to a more modern set, I must admit the almost constant references to different B&O products, including TVs, having software 'issues' (for issues read problems!) does cause me to dread the time of decision and whether the high cost involved will buy the quality of product and peace of mind that it should.   

 

" No excuse for the appalling service I know, but when you told the sales you were only a visitor he clearly saw 'time waster' stamped on your forehead. "

Actually, I had been a long-time customer of the original store on Rodeo Drive since it was opened by the owner of the Paris store. In fact I had purchased a number of stereo systems there for property we had in Los Angeles ( BS3200, BL4000, and american Beoport, Beocom 2, etc. ). I was there in town when the first BV-10 arrived, and had a good demonstration by a Danish sales rep there well before it was premiered there.

The ownership has obviously changed in recent years. The young sales representative at the new location was someone whom was not known to me, nor did he ask. Had I identified myself for whatever reason, that would not have changed his knowlege of the product.

The surprise is that in September, 2011, the much heralded Encore was not working. The Cisco requirement and deflection to that company for a Cisco router (Which one ?) will not prevent a motivated customer (such as myself) from parting with 3000 CHF for an Encore. The error here is to brush off the customer to Cisco: Is the Encore a B&O product, or a Cisco product ? It would be better to have B&O coordinate that connection, rather than disjoint it.

I realise that this is a new product to the market, and I quite like the concept. A small digital unit that would connect to my B&O speakers, avoid the need for a computer, and connect to the N.Radio server at will. Brilliant.  But place it in the store window if you want to promote and sell the product, not in the back, if you will. I assumed that an Encore product orientation with all the sales staff had taken place, months before. Back to our olde Europe for answers and a demonstration.

Kokomo:

StUrrock:

Ours is off display, refuse to sell products that don't work :( (kept losing network connection)

Customers and us  are Looking forward to a fully working version :)

 

That's is a pathetic state of affairs for this product.

All my B&O gear is a few years old and my TV is still the Beovision 3. I could afford a B&O flat screen but when I do change to a more modern set, I must admit the almost constant references to different B&O products, including TVs, having software 'issues' (for issues read problems!) does cause me to dread the time of decision and whether the high cost involved will buy the quality of product and peace of mind that it should.   

 

Unfortunately, the trouble(s) I had with the BV-8 were what basically ended my love-affair with B&O. Maybe I was just at the wrong place in the wrong time.

SWISS_2:

The surprise is that in September, 2011, the much heralded Encore was not working. The Cisco requirement and deflection to that company for a Cisco router (Which one ?) will not prevent a motivated customer (such as myself) from parting with 3000 CHF for an Encore. The error here is to brush off the customer to Cisco: Is the Encore a B&O product, or a Cisco product ? It would be better to have B&O coordinate that connection, rather than disjoint it.

I have a hard time believing that the Encore requires a specific router.  In my experience, wireless network standards are quite mature, and I haven't seen any interoperability problem since the early days of the "n" routers.  It is probable that the Encore is using standard "off the shelf" networking hardware/software which should (and generally does) play nice with any and all players.  I put this comment down as complete BS - at least I sure hope it is because any product that in 2011 requires a specific router to work correctly is seriously flawed.  Over the years, I've heard all kinds of nonsense from B&O dealer personnel from time to time.  This sounds like more of that.

Then again, given the unruly nature of wireless networks, I have been worried about the Encore from the beginning.  I don't know if this will ever be a truly workable product in most home environments.  "Workable" meaning works 100% of the time with no hiccups when being used by a technophobe with exceedingly high expections. 

Let me brace for the onslaught of the Apple faithful who claim Apple does this, but in my experience they don't.  I live in a neighborhood with large yards so I can see only 2 neighbor's wireless networks (with only a bar at most).  However, not often and very unpredictably, my Apple based wifi network just goes all crappy - as did my Linksys system the preceeded it.  I've hunted throughout the house for this source of interference to no avail - a few months back, I was to the point of replacing my router, then it all works fine (for now). 

It has also been my experience that the protocols used to establish connectivity between servers were not designed for unreliable wireless networks (or the software is not robust enough to handle these interruptions consistently) so connections tend to get hung when wireless networks go to hell.  Sure, this doesn't happen often, and it usually just requires a reboot here or there, but that's not the expected B&O experience, and I don't know how they will ever deliver this when the underlying technology (standard networking protocols) doesn't support this.

Oh well... I wish them the best of luck with this...  I hope they can prove my fears wrong...

Stan

" I have a hard time believing that the Encore requires a specific router.  In my experience, wireless network standards are quite mature, and I haven't seen any interoperability problem since the early days of the "n" routers.  It is probable that the Encore is using standard "off the shelf" networking hardware/software which should (and generally does) play nice with any and all players.  I put this comment down as complete BS - "

Stan;

Given the manner in which this occurred, I thought the same. Unfortunately it was confirmed again at another store in southern California. Cisco router only.

I'm sure there is a work around in Europe. I exchanged to new Cat 7 cable to facilitate the Encore, adding new Netgear N/G routers. Still hot here, with prices quite reasonable compared to home. Soren must be broiling down in Mexico.

BS ?   Bad Software ?

I don't know how far back this topic goes, but the Encore doesn't require a Cisco router. I have run it in my showroom with an Apple Airport and have it in the field on a few others. The Cisco router is a reccomended router for the sole purpose that all stores can "be on the same page" and find easier support from central tech. Not every associate has a working knowledge of networking so consolidating support to one relaible model that has all the features we need makes sense.

What we do reccomend is that if there's heavy internet use in your house a subnet makes sense. For the cost of another router you can move the network traffic off your browsing network (for when music is streaming from within your house, not from N.RADIO). 

But otherwise a router is a router. 

There is no need for a Cisco router.

I started with a Netgear router. Everything worked fine with this router! (one lan with mac, pc, bs5, bs5e, nas)

I decided though to split the lan; a B&o (music: NAS, BS5, BS5e) part and for evething else. for this reason I have bought a second router. This router is placed as a subsystem and completely dedicated to music / B&o. This way the traffic for B&o is garanteed.

The second router is a Cisco Linksys 4200. The reasos for this router is the abbilty of this router to be used behind another router.

For example my Netgear router is not capable to function this way.

Stan:

I live in a neighborhood with large yards so I can see only 2 neighbor's wireless networks (with only a bar at most). 

 

You can see your neighbours' wireless networks?

Don't they have their networks protected? 

Kokomo;

Stan meant that he can see the WIFI networks available in his area on his PC. I can see this also up in the Alps from our home, but it also reveals if they are encrypted-secured, or not. On average only 2/3 are are usually secured WPA-2.

Appreciate your comments Trip. It does suggest a question of bandwidth usage, and servers. Fortunately our Internet service is quite good: Never a problem before with N.RADIO ( usually SwissPop, Radio Tirol, or ORF Wien ), downloading, and surfing, even all at once.

Yes, "seeing" is not the same as being able to use.  "Seeing" just means that my network card can receive the network name (SSID) that their network is broadcasting.  Even if they were not secure (they are), their signal strength is too low to use anyway.

Stan

I dont know too much about the BS5e, but is it not just a micro PC with Win XPe and built in Wifi reciever?

If so, would the simple solution be the same as the BS5/BM5 arragment;

Maintenance mode/start/settings/Network Connections/Wireless Network Connections/select network/enter code/apply.......

 

10