I HAVE JUST BEEN TO MY DADS FRIENDS HOUSE,AND HE SHOWED ME HIS MUSIC SYSTEM.IT WAS A LINN ACTIVE KLIMAX SYSTEM,CONSISTING OF A DS PLAYER,AMPS,KOMRI SPEAKERS ETC.WHAT CAN I SAY WHAT A SOUND,UNBELIEVABLE.  BUT A BIG BUT.IT WAS NEARLY A £90K AND THE SPEAKERS WERE HORRIBLY AND LARGE AND YOU COULD SEE LOADS OF CABLES,WHICH HE TOLD ME COST £1000S ALONE.

I THEN WENT BACK TO MY DADS WHO IS A B&O FAN LIKE ME AND HAS LAB 5S WITH A BEOSOUND 9000 WHICH COST AROUND £14K WHEN HE GOT THEM.FIRST OF ALL THEY LOOK BETTER AND ARE HALF THE SIZE,NO CABLES AT ALL AND THE SOUND SUBLIME.THE LINN DID SOUND GOOD BUT NOT OVER £70K BETTER.ALL THESE COMPANIES SLAG OF B&0 SAYING THEY SOUND RUBBISH ETC ALL ABOUT THE LOOKS,BUT IF THAT IS THE PEAK OF HIGH END HI-FI YOU CAN COUNT ME OUT AND I WOULD RATHER HAVE B&O ANYDAY,SOUNDS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND LOOKS TEN TIMES BETTER.

ADIOS

I think there is room for both - the Linn fanatic will be unimpressed with the B&O system sound and the B&O fanatic will despise the compromises to life necessitated by the Linn system. Both will be partly correct - the B&O will sound extremely good and the Linn will no doubt allow tweaking of the sound in all sorts of unimaginable ways.

Peter :

I think there is room for both - the Linn fanatic will be unimpressed with the B&O system sound and the B&O fanatic will despise the compromises to life necessitated by the Linn system. Both will be partly correct - the B&O will sound extremely good and the Linn will no doubt allow tweaking of the sound in all sorts of unimaginable ways.

Interesting post.

From my reading and browsing on Beoworld, owners/contributors appear to fall into a number of camps.

Without wishing to be rude or offensive in any way to anyone, and to generalise:

I am wealthy, can afford the 'best' have good taste and want the 'best' and am lead to believe B&O is the best and it looks fabulous, therefore I buy B&O.

I am not overly wealthy and B&O is very expensive, but I love the design, as I'm a design freak, and the sound is very good, therefore I lust after/aspire to B&O and would buy it in preference to anything else.  Where I may not be able to afford new, I go with classic components from a bygone era.

I am a recovering audiophile.  I have been down the path of PRaT, Flat Earth, and Air and Space Round Earth sound philosophies, and found nothing but angst and dissatisfaction amongst an OCD desire for constant upgrading and expense.  I realise that I spent far more time listening anxiously to the kit and it's 'performance' rather than the music, and am just heartily sick of the whole experience.  B&O promises a science and engineering lead approach to sound, where the design goal is that of the original tenet of HiFi "the closest approach to the original sound" and not the pseudo science subjective clap trap pedalled by entrepreneurial cottage industry audiophiles.  B&O looks fantastic, has a wonderful freedom from racks, cables, clutter, and subjective BS as regards sound assessment, and has a pedigree of science lead R&D amongst the best in the word.  My therapist suggested B&O as an antidote to my HiFi OCD woes, and I am hooked.  Nirvana and true satisfaction at last.  I buy B&O having learnt the painful lessons of the past.

Well, I am having a little fun here and generalising, but certainly I fit into the last camp/group as far as being a recovering audiophile and highly appreciative of what B&O offer.

I would suggest that Linn and Naim (speaking as an ex Naimee) will as you assert allow tweaking the sound in all sorts of ways, but it does lead to a fixation on the performance of the kit, rather than the performance of the music.  

Linn/Naim fanatics do indeed look down their noses at B&O - I had to cringe a few weeks back reading a thread on a flat earth forum basically rubbishing B&O into the ground - it was truly horrible and I wish I had some B&O online friends to call into action to defend B&O from such unjustified and objectively completely erroneous and totally unfair criticism.

Having been burnt by the whole audiophool subjective High End scene, the major appeal for me of B&O is not that it is pretty, or a design statement, but that it is so seriously lead from an engineering and science based POV when it comes to acoustic design and approach to sound reproduction.  The only other commercial concern that I'm aware of that takes so much care and effort re "the closest approach to the original sound" is Harmon International and in some ways B&W with their R&D labs in Steynning.

B&O lab 5's are some of the most lifelike and realistic/believable sound transducers that I have ever heard over the many years I've been involved in this hobby.  Most professional reviews that have been made of them have described them as being an acoustic and engineering masterpiece - in one case described as re-inventing the loudspeaker as we know it.

Compared to hair shirt high end specialist assembler audiophool designs, the Lab 5 is, in my opinion, a masterpiece of electrical engineering and acoustic design, and is supreme value by the time one purchases a speaker of similar upfront cost, and then doubles that to provide supposedly commensurate amplification to drive them.

Doubtless the Naimee or Linn fanatic will prefer their choice and good luck to them, but whereas they will argue with subjective pseudo scientific audiophile speak, and tweak and play ad infinitum with the kit, always obsessively seeking 'better' performance from it, and spending thousands on cables for example that will do no better job than something equally capable electrically, but thousands cheaper, let alone stands, racks, and all the rest of the audiophile gadget and tweaking lexicon, B&O will speak with maths, science, electrical and acoustic engineering, ABX blind testing and a staff of very highly qualified tertiary trained experts in their field - importantly including those involved with psycho-acoustics, and in my view the products sound reproduction results, and owner satisfaction, speaks for itself.

Best regards

John...

John:

Interesting post.

And your's is a FANTASTIC post

Loved your descriptions of the three categories of Beophiles

Can you come up with a few more ?

John, I'm a nr 3.

+1

Fair point, but SHOUTING isn't very B&O is it? ;)

Indeed it is

There must a be few more categories!

John:

I am not overly wealthy and B&O is very expensive, but I love the design, ...  Where I may not be able to afford new, I go with classic components from a bygone era.

I am a recovering audiophile.

Well John, I think I fall into both of these categories. 

Having owned B&O on and off for 40 years now, the 'off' bit was mostly during a period where I bought into the myth of the Linn Sondek LP12.   Apart from the paraphenalia of setting the thing up initially, I then spent the next 2 years or so listening to the Hi Fi rather than the music, wondering incessantly if the thing was working properly to the point where in the end, to paraphrase the strap line for Stanley Kubrick's 'Dr Strangelove', I learned to 'stop worrying and love B&O'.  I then spent the next 20 years of so in peaceful harmony with a BS 2500.

Then I found this site and read Tim Jarman's book. 

So now, whilst I no longer worry about the quality of my kits' ability to play music - and my Beosystem 8000 with a CDX and MC120.2s for example, is pretty good at doing that - I admire the quality of the design so much, one system isn't enough.  I now enjoy owning and using many of the 'classic components from a bygone era' you mention, which even if they didn't reproduce music, are intrinsically beautiful.  I get a great deal of musical and aesthetic satisfaction for what has been, relatively speaking, a low financial outlay. 

It's just a question of how to stop buying more B&O - a problem not unknown on this site!

Cleve

A very good post from John.

I spent over 12 years setting up and installing Linn and Naim systems, followed by 15 years in the B&O distribution ( from installer - shop manager - Dealer Principal) but have now stood down from 'active service' to return to education in Sept.

I knw both sectors well, from the inside as well as being a 'user'....and I recognise the tweaky, never satisfied nature of owning "audiophile" kit - my own LP12 spent more time being adjusted than listened to - whereas my beogram 7000 has spent 5 years on the same shelf and only ever gets used to play lP's....not to fiddle with for hours.

Both sectors of the industry have merits - and for me personally, I found many parallels between Linn and B&O ( not in the kit, but in the ethos and integrity of the people.  Trips up to Glasgow had a similar "feel" as trips to Winnersh and over to Struer.... dealing with people who cared and believe in what they do)

My LP12/Naim/Isobarik system was a thing of grace and beauty....it sounded effortless in a way few systems can....but each speaker was the size of a cupboard, and the cables thicker than hosepipe.  I rally enjoyed it....but i couldn't leave it allone !!!!  the urge to tweak/adjust/modify just became too much, and that was true at work as well, hence my change of track to B&O.

Rather like petrol and deisel, the audiophile and the Beofan music systems just don't mix, despite having the same function.

John, you had plenty of ammunition to take down the scoffers on the other forums! If you ever need backup just head over here and round up a posse!!

I have always been obsessed with B&O and really dont see myself living without it. I have a huge interest in everything audio and find a lot of audiophile stuff very cool.

I fit into the cant afford B&O camp, all of my kit is pre 88. And regarding sound, there is no compromise. My BL5000s can defeat most everything Ive heard.

Thank you for that amazing post John!

butch1:

I HAVE JUST BEEN TO MY DADS FRIENDS HOUSE,AND HE SHOWED ME HIS MUSIC SYSTEM.IT WAS A LINN ACTIVE KLIMAX SYSTEM,CONSISTING OF A DS PLAYER,AMPS,KOMRI SPEAKERS ETC.WHAT CAN I SAY WHAT A SOUND,UNBELIEVABLE.  BUT A BIG BUT.IT WAS NEARLY A £90K AND THE SPEAKERS WERE HORRIBLY AND LARGE AND YOU COULD SEE LOADS OF CABLES,WHICH HE TOLD ME COST £1000S ALONE.

I THEN WENT BACK TO MY DADS WHO IS A B&O FAN LIKE ME AND HAS LAB 5S WITH A BEOSOUND 9000 WHICH COST AROUND £14K WHEN HE GOT THEM.FIRST OF ALL THEY LOOK BETTER AND ARE HALF THE SIZE,NO CABLES AT ALL AND THE SOUND SUBLIME.THE LINN DID SOUND GOOD BUT NOT OVER £70K BETTER.ALL THESE COMPANIES SLAG OF B&0 SAYING THEY SOUND RUBBISH ETC ALL ABOUT THE LOOKS,BUT IF THAT IS THE PEAK OF HIGH END HI-FI YOU CAN COUNT ME OUT AND I WOULD RATHER HAVE B&O ANYDAY,SOUNDS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND LOOKS TEN TIMES BETTER.

ADIOS

Maybe the acoustics was not so good in your dads friends house.

 There must be something wrong in is set-up!

deleted

I agree - superb post and puts it much as I think. I think it is great that all sorts of products exist to allow each and every person to listen to music in whichsoever way they like.

I do however have a confession of my own - I now listen to music mainly on non B&O. I still have my main system plumbed through the house but it doesn't reach the kitchen (walls too thick for me to be bothered to drill the hole and too solid for wireless) and I am having issues with my music library working via remote on my iPhone since changing my internet connection. I therefore mainly listen to my iPod , either in a dock (non B&O) or through headphones (sometimes B&O). I just listen to the music, not the hi-fi . If being analytical, some of the sound reproduction is not the best, but it is easy to use and I like the music. Laughably, when I do use a B&O system, it is usually my Beomaster 5500 and a pair of CX100s - which are hardly hi-fi at all!

I used to buy B&O really because it was well made, looked great but particularly because it was easy to use - one button and it was playing. I suppose the Beomaster 2400 was what really attracted me; no buttons visible at all. It all seems so complex now!

On the tweaking front, I did experiment briefly - on the LS3/5A forum there are all sorts of setting up tweaks - soon gave up as quite frankly, I have more important things in life!!

bayerische:

John, I'm a nr 3.

 

Can I join that club as well?

"I used to buy B&O really because it was well made, looked great but particularly because it was easy to use - one button and it was playing. I suppose the Beomaster 2400 was what really attracted me; no buttons visible at all. It all seems so complex now"

My first B&O was a BM3000, the successor to the 2400 you mention Peter. And yes, it was also so very simple. Not just to operate, but also to set up. In an age when nobody had presents for radio, the BM3000 had 4 or 5 presets. Setting these up was dead simple. Now everybody has a gazillion radio presets, but I now need the manual to set up a radio preset on my BS3000.

I guess the move upmarket means that installers are now responsible for all of that.

I agree. One of the defining characteristics of early B&O was that you didn't need to read the manual! If you did, it was merely to confirm what you had done was correct.

Reading this thread made me think...

Wouldn't it be great to have a B&O system that just went 'back to basics'?

Something that is easy to use, looks good, and sounds good. No fiddly extras; just a great, simple system.

Before you start thinking "what a crackpot! what about 'this'? or 'that'? or 'the other'?", consider the success of the original Mazda MX-5! This wass a simple manual rear wheel drive car that is enjoyable to drive and just simply does what it should. No fussy electric roof, flashy this or that. Just a basic enjoyable 'thing'.....

Any thoughts???

Surely sales of the 'basic' Beosound 8 have shown this not to be the case...

I guess the reason why we buy B&O is that, compared to other high-end material, it is more or less just "plug and play".

What I like with BeoLab 5 is the same "plug and play" philosophy, the speaker calibrates itself, and eventually you'll spend more time listening to music, rather than finding the right speaker placement, cables, power cords and thickness of your curtains...which is what most high-end fanatics do.

not sure thats true.... consider some of the high end designs with no EQ, minimal connections and a very short, "clean" signal path.

The cost of many of these very expensive products  ( aside from dealer margin and purchase tax) is in the case materials, the labour and the cost of sourcing/matching high grade audio components.

Brands like Naim, Rega, Quad, Densen, Linn etc often have/had very simple, clean designs - both visually and electronically.  But they are not cheap.

Great post by John there. I defo fit in #.2 even if I had modern I would still enjoy the older vintage stuff due to early memories and lusting throughout my childhood!

I have always argued B&O are ahead of everyone else when it comes to simply enjoying music. Of course they take things a step further and enhance not just the listening & user experience but actually living with their equipment is of course, itself a pleasure!

Jonathan:

Before you start thinking "what a crackpot! what about 'this'? or 'that'? or 'the other'?", consider the success of the original Mazda MX-5! This wass a simple manual rear wheel drive car that is enjoyable to drive and just simply does what it should. No fussy electric roof, flashy this or that. Just a basic enjoyable 'thing'.....

Any thoughts???

Ha!  I thought you were a crackpot lol

I agree that the MX5 actually put the fun back in driving and really spawned a whole renaissance: z3, slk, et al followed suit.

I would love things to be basic: why does the iphone only have 2 buttons.  I remember that B&O remote that was developed before the apple remote, just a couple of buttons: lovely.

I often think that electronics should follow the VCR trend: you popped it in.  There were only a few choices: fast fwd, rewind, stop, play, pause, record and eject: and how many older people (well in my family) still use this as their benchmark.  "Wow a DVD is nice, but it's not as easy to use to record on tape"

Beolab 5 may be a bargain for some, but for me it's $30k, which is really an average yearly salary take home for some people.  But agreed they are simple in their approach: Jon, they may be the MX5?  well maybe the slk lol.

:-)

beocool:

bayerische:

John, I'm a nr 3.

 

Can I join that club as well?

Sure, it's even free!

To add to my statement, B&O was my first hifi-set. I got a Beosystem 2500 setup for my 15th birthday. I still have the Beocenter 2300, it's now 15 years old, and still works perfectly. From the Beolab 2500 I upgraded to Beolab pentas. A huge investment for me at the time (I was 19) but it was worth it.

Then came the surround sound hysteria... Well I couldn't afford a B&O surround, so I went with other marks, this way I got into High-End as I didn't care too much about surround sound, it was just something you had to have in the late 90-ties, early 2000.

After years of constant upgrades I had a very nice and very expensive 2-channel setup. (About 30.000 euro)

I went for a Beolab 5 demo, and there it was, I had to have them. 

So I'm a recovering audiophile, but I never left B&O completely, the Beocenter 2300 and Beolab pentas was always there, and still are.

At present I'm a Beophile, probably won't recover.