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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-06-2011 2:56 PM by elephant. 75 replies.
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  • 12-27-2010 8:40 PM

    BeoWorld in Decline

    The sheer volume of ignorance, wish-thinking, and hyperbole on this forum is truly breath-taking. It's like the forum never recovered for the True DTS-HD thread and the anti-B&O contingent were galvanized and emboldened. They hide behind the "it's not like it used to be" argument, but their motives are clear. They do not have any honest desire to see B&O thrive and prosper. They have nothing useful to offer in terms of ideas and anyone who takes their ideas seriously is the worse for it. 

    I'd like to keep participating, but it's not B&O that's in decline, it's this forum. There needs to be a break-point. The "nail-in-the-coffin-spotters" aren't going to shut up, so it's up to those of us who wish to discuss the brand we love in constructive terms to overwhelm the threads and not allow them to descend into hornets' nest of unsophisticated pessimistic blather.

    Anyone who reads this who has faded in their participation, please come back. Please dive in so that we can bring some life back here. It's a community with the potential to be a great and worthwhile diversion for all of us, but only if we make it so.

    I'm going to go pollenate some threads now and hope that you do the same.

    Trip

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-27-2010 9:31 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    TripEnglish:

    The sheer volume of ignorance, wish-thinking, and hyperbole on this forum is truly breath-taking. It's like the forum never recovered for the True DTS-HD thread and the anti-B&O contingent were galvanized and emboldened. They hide behind the "it's not like it used to be" argument, but their motives are clear. They do not have any honest desire to see B&O thrive and prosper. They have nothing useful to offer in terms of ideas and anyone who takes their ideas seriously is the worse for it. 

    I'd like to keep participating, but it's not B&O that's in decline, it's this forum. There needs to be a break-point. The "nail-in-the-coffin-spotters" aren't going to shut up, so it's up to those of us who wish to discuss the brand we love in constructive terms to overwhelm the threads and not allow them to descend into hornets' nest of unsophisticated pessimistic blather.

    Anyone who reads this who has faded in their participation, please come back. Please dive in so that we can bring some life back here. It's a community with the potential to be a great and worthwhile diversion for all of us, but only if we make it so.

    I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 12-27-2010 9:34 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    TripEnglish:

    The sheer volume of ignorance, wish-thinking, and hyperbole on this forum is truly breath-taking. It's like the forum never recovered for the True DTS-HD thread and the anti-B&O contingent were galvanized and emboldened. They hide behind the "it's not like it used to be" argument, but their motives are clear. They do not have any honest desire to see B&O thrive and prosper. They have nothing useful to offer in terms of ideas and anyone who takes their ideas seriously is the worse for it. 

    I'd like to keep participating, but it's not B&O that's in decline, it's this forum. There needs to be a break-point. The "nail-in-the-coffin-spotters" aren't going to shut up, so it's up to those of us who wish to discuss the brand we love in constructive terms to overwhelm the threads and not allow them to descend into hornets' nest of unsophisticated pessimistic blather.

    Anyone who reads this who has faded in their participation, please come back. Please dive in so that we can bring some life back here. It's a community with the potential to be a great and worthwhile diversion for all of us, but only if we make it so.

    I'm going to go pollenate some threads now and hope that you do the same.

    Trip

     

    +1

     

    The good news are that B&O have found, in my opinion, a new and better north and is sailing the storm graciously. Seems that awesome and great things are in the horizon for B&O and the future looks really bright. 

    Honestly I can wait to brighten my day and enhance my home with more beautiful and amazing products from B&O. Look, Use, listen, watch and interact with them is really a daily pleasure. Honestly I wish I had more rooms and more houses just to fill them with these amazing products.

  • 12-27-2010 9:35 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    burantek:

    I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

    One of their purest failures.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-27-2010 9:39 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    TripEnglish:

    burantek:

    I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

    One of their purest failures.

    Exactly... and to my point -the definition of a forum: a public meeting or assembly for open discussion.

    When things got out of hand at B&o -they just pulled the plug.

    Make it what it is. Take from it what you want. Attempting to steer it would be BeoWorld's purest failure.

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 12-27-2010 9:49 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    TripEnglish:

    burantek:

    I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

    One of their purest failures.

    LOL

    The same old story. The glass is half empty or half full?.

    The world is full of failed attempts until you get the right one, ask Thomas Alva Edison, he found thousands of ways to make a "non working" light bulb until he finally found one way to make a "working" one. Perseverance and optimism at its best. Unfortunately I see some lack of the latter in this forum lately.

  • 12-27-2010 9:50 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I wouldn't presume to attempt steering of any sort. Anyone is free to respond to or dismiss a thread like this. But I've registered an undercurrent of similar sentiment and I hope to inspire some worthwhile voices to return to the conversation. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-27-2010 10:50 PM In reply to

    • murcieme
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    • Joined on 10-17-2007
    • Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    • Posts 73
    • Gold Member

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Though I'm far from a regular poster, I've been reading this site for quite some time.  I must say there certainly are a number of people unsatisfied with B&O's current trajectory.  While their arguments certainly have their merits, I don't really find the naysayers any different than in any other online forum. I'm also a member of many automotive forums, and there are striking similarities between the two. 

    The fact is many people don't want to face certain economic truths.  The 'it's not like it used to be' argument transcends all products and all markets - more now than ever, and it's not going to change. It'll never be 'like it used to be' again, and the stick-in-the-muds have to wake up and face the facts. 

    Those with their blinders on may prefer B&O to manufacture all their goods at home, run themselves into the ground, crash and burn with escalating costs etc, rather than outsourcing manufacturing to China to survive.  In this economic climate EVERYONE has to cut their costs where they can and reevaluate all aspects of their business practices, from Panasonic to Porsche - nobody is immune. 

    Certainly there is something to mourn here.  B&O is changing because they have to.  The disheartened on this forum should certainly have their opinions voiced, that's what this site is all about, but they should also take a reality check.  Sadly, some don't, and can be quite the 'downers' at times.  I sincerely hope they don't wish for the demise of Bang & Olufsen.  I don't think most sincerely do.

    That being said, a few sour grapes won't ruin the bunch. :)  I've always found this site to be extremely helpful and informative, even from the sidelines. :)

     

    Mike

     

    Since 1977

    Filed under: ,
  • 12-27-2010 11:17 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Hopefully I am not a naysayer.

     

    In fact in many ways it is not B&O who changed ... but us.

    I would be here more often ... but work has been quite demanding this year.

    I would be more positive ... if Trip had shed more illumination from his trip to the dealer conference.

    I like CDs ... but MP3s can be more convenient.

    I like B&O ... but I need to be financially cautious.

    I won't by a Beosound 8 ... not because it is made in China, not because of its design, but because my tastes / usage patterns have changed from when I envisaged on the old forum a device like the BS8.

    I like their designs, their simplicity ... but I have also grown to like the similar simplicity that I find in Apple.

    I would buy a BS8 remote as a separate instead of using an iPhone/iTouch ... because it embodies the essence of B&O cool.

     

     

    If I did not need to financially conservative I would buy a BV7-55 or the -85 whatever that is whenever it comes.

    If I did not fear the wrath of SWMBO I would by some BeoLab 5s but instead I will settle instead for a gaggle (what is the collective noun for penguins?).

     

     

    And so I hold my breath to see these fabulous eight products in 2011 will bring. 

    I have a deposit at my local B&O store that is burning a hole in my pocket ... all I need is the right product or right north star to guide me :) ... and I would buy.

    So my New Year's resolution is to be more positive about the hopes of the brand I love.

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 12-27-2010 11:36 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    No way, Elephant. You've generally been a bright spot as someone whose criticism makes sense. You express your opinions as opinions and not divine revelation. Your attitude, from my perspective, represents someone who wants to see our beloved brand do better in every sense. Glad to hear of your renewed optimism for 2011. I'm confident it will pay off (-;

    (for the record I probably divulge more than B&O would like and sometimes it's hard to keep secrets, but I try to shoot straight with what I know)

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-27-2010 11:51 PM In reply to

    • murcieme
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    • Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    • Posts 73
    • Gold Member

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Elephant, you bring up  some very good points:

    -B&O used to pretty much have the market when it came to exceptionally high style & user friendly AND well made audio products. Apple and the digital music file changed that drastically.

    -Not only have the fortunes of B&O and other companies changed, but our personal finances as well.  Even though the economy has made great strides to recovery, the 'lean & efficient' model is here to stay. 

    This has left us a little bitter as consumers, and probably changes our mood a little on the whole.  We watch our money a little more, spend a little less, or we expect more for our money, usually reluctantly.  In better times we'd certainly be less critical of certain products.  I'm sure even those of us who weren't hit directly with an ecomic crisis have adopted such a mindset.  We do more with less, and expect more for less.  It's smart, but it sucks...

    :)

    Mike

    Since 1977

  • 12-27-2010 11:58 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Thanks Mike :) 

    Thanks Trip :)

     

    For the record, I think the decline in Beoworld started when Wedthread was moved to separate server and forum ... sure hope it comes back in 2011 ... and yes, I know they are only a link away but it is one link too many because I am such a lazy slob Laughing

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 12-28-2010 1:09 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Yes, people have a certain tendencies to criticise unreleased products based on partial rumoured specs... but...

    You can't really say that B&O hasn't changed, they have changed dramatically under the previous CEO. He has decided to dramatically increase prices and move into the "super rich" market. "Super riches" are probably too busy to spend time on this forum, and that left us mere mortals feeling priced out and frustrated by a brand we used to be able to afford.

    In the meantime the word has changed and while the CD/Radio/Tape/Analog TV used to be enough for decades, B&O has not seen the multiplication of digital/dematerialised sources coming. Under Torben and until recently, a number of products have been released incomplete or with software issues. And I think it was perfectly right to criticise them (BV8 released without a DVB-T tuner!!!, Beosound 5 that can't really be used from a distance).

    That said, I have a lot of hope in the new CEO as I have the impression he really understands B&O's values AND today's technology challenges. Beovision 10 and Beosound 8 will be successes. I can't wait for Beonet, Beosound Encore and the Beo6 combo. Hopefully this should bring B&O into this century, but with B&O traditional specificities: easy of use, 2 way, multi-room.

    Trip, as you are criticising people's attitude on the forum, I would like to say that I value your input in the forum, especially as you are one of the only dealer to speak openly, and who does not hesitate too much to spill the beans. Your posts are very interesting, however, you can also be very aggressive and condescending, and if you want to this forum to be a better place, there is a thing or two you can do on your side ;-)

     

  • 12-28-2010 1:30 AM In reply to

    • Spiros
    • Top 50 Contributor
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    • Joined on 09-03-2007
    • Thessaloniki GREECE
    • Posts 1,088
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    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Being a member from the very early days of the old forum which most of us do remember, I can say that things change of course, however the quality still remains the same. Our beloved Beoworld is still the unique place to be and discuss every single trouble, issue, news and gossips apart of course from the excellent technical advice.

    I have no problem hearing people's opinion about the new products, likes-don't likes etc. And it's more obvious that there are people that just want to harm the forum, BUT it's in our hands to just ignore and keep on.

    Just my few thoughts with the morning coffee!!!

    Good morning guys!!!!

    Best regards

    Spiros

  • 12-28-2010 1:36 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Agressive? Absolutely. 

    Condescending? Not really. 

    I'm a successful purveyor of luxury goods. I didn't accomplish that by conflating fantasy and reality. If someone feels condescended to because they can't afford a television, a guy on an internet forum is the least of their worries. If I can't afford something, I don't take it personally. I don't assume the company was established 90 years ago so that one day it could do me the injustice of pricing me out of its services. 

    If people spent as much time working on improving their financial fortunes as they do griping about how expensive B&O products are they'd be standing at my desk shaking stacks of $100 bills out of a top hat while their man-servant points to the products they want. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-28-2010 3:29 AM In reply to

    • ®
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-01-2007
    • UK
    • Posts 970
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I find the mix of "rose tinted glasses wearers" v "the end of B&O is nigh" about right. 50/50 would make for a very interesting forum IMO.

  • 12-28-2010 6:05 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I enjoy this forum and many of the contributors including Trip and many in this thread.

    Some entertaining contributors seem to have left the forum or have drastically reduced their input..........  Elephant is not the only contributor who has spotted that the isolation of the Wednesday non-B&O thread on a different server  has had the apparent effect of reducing contributions to that thread and also apparently reducing the participation of former 'Wedthreders' in the General forum.

    Some people seem only to contribute because they have a problem, and disappear once it is resolved. Too many fail to tell us about the actual resolution!

    Sometimes threads get hi-jacked by people with a grudge or by dealers who are not at all open about their participation in the B&O new or used sales business (Trip being one of several notable exceptions). Regulars get to know who is who, but one of my very first contributions was about on-line dealers........ little did I know about the territory I was stepping into on Beoworld!

    B&O will survive if it produces good design with robust technology. I hope the company is thinking beyond China and overseas production........... anyone relying soley on cheap production in China is in for a rude awakening in the next ten years. Look at what is going on right now with currencies and exchange rates and chinese labour costs.

    When I look back at the anti B&O attitudes of the 1970's when I bought my first equipment it's easy to conclude that some things never change. B&O subsequently went through a bad period of Japanese built production. Some people will never be satisfied about the quality of their equipment. Look at the debates about CD lossless quality etc etc.......... . Many compressed file formats now  produce a music quality superior to what a vinyl pressing could produce, the big difference now seems to be in the way the original material is recorded. Is it logical to spend a fortune exposing the poor quality in an original recording?

    Hopefully Beoworld will survive and there will be a healthy continuing debate........ maybe once everything is back on the same server in February. (Posts on this main forum do tend to 'hang' when posting rather spoiling the ease of using the forum.)

    Graham

     

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-28-2010 6:42 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    TripEnglish:

    Agressive? Absolutely. 

    Condescending? Not really. 

    I'm a successful purveyor of luxury goods. I didn't accomplish that by conflating fantasy and reality. If someone feels condescended to because they can't afford a television, a guy on an internet forum is the least of their worries. If I can't afford something, I don't take it personally.

     

    Oh Trip, you talk yourself down. From the above, I detect more 'qualities' - modesty and self-deprication. Truly amirable.

  • 12-28-2010 6:46 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Most forums become slightly negative! Because people feel safe to criticise when they are hidden behind a computer screen, I for one love the brand and hope that it stays strong. Performance wise they have more competition than ever before but styling and lifestyle they are unrivalled!

     

    I agree Trip we need to be more positive, Thanks for standing up!

     

    The new products may not be to our taste but the fact is they need to sell more products to survive.

     

    There is my opinion!

    Cheers Nick 

  • 12-28-2010 7:19 AM In reply to

    • Dude1
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    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I think we should ALWAYS agree with you Trip. You make such profound statements. What could anyone else offer.

  • 12-28-2010 7:29 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    PhilLondon:
    You can't really say that B&O hasn't changed, they have changed dramatically under the previous CEO. He has decided to dramatically increase prices and move into the "super rich" market. "Super riches" are probably too busy to spend time on this forum, and that left us mere mortals feeling priced out and frustrated by a brand we used to be able to afford.

    I agree very much with the above Phil.

    I must confess I feel somewhat of a fraud on this forum. Other than some more LC2s I haven't purchased B&O for some years since I put together my current TV, DVD & Stereo system.

    Although not rich by any means, when I first purchased B&O products some 30 years ago I was able to do so because their products were higher priced than other brands, but not so much that middle class people such as myself were excluded from the brand. In those days most working people could, if they wanted to, stretch themselves a little financially to purchasing a B&O product. Of course most didn't because they couldn't see the point in buying something that was available for less money in another brand. A television to most people for example was (and still is) just a TV!

    I though could see the point in paying more for the brand.

    I retired early from the UK to Spain and am now priced out of B&O. Not because I'm poor (although I have far less disposable income than I used to have), but because I have been left behind as the brand has moved onwards and upwards out of my reach.

    That leaves me somewhat saddened. Not out of self-pity, just the thought that I and I suspect many others fell in love with the brand and , like a spurned lover or spouse, feel we have now been cast aside.   

     

     

  • 12-28-2010 7:44 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Kokomo:

     

    I retired early from the UK to Spain and am now priced out of B&O. Not because I'm poor (although I have far less disposable income than I used to have), but because I have been left behind as the brand has moved onwards and upwards out of my reach.

    That leaves me somewhat saddened. Not out of self-pity, just the thought that I and I suspect many others fell in love with the brand and , like a spurned lover or spouse, feel we have now been cast aside.   

     

    I can recommend buying a 1970's classic (that maybe you could not afford at the time) and getting it refurbished by an expert like Frede or Martin.

     

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-28-2010 8:12 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
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    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I see no problem with anyone expressing their opinion on Beoworld. If they have an issue with any given product then they are welcome to express it here, just as much as those that may sing the same product's praise. Indeed I think it would be a much, much poorer site should it ever end up otherwise. The worst possible scenario is a forum full of sycophantic posts where no real issues are ever discussed and people are harried and bullied should they dare to disagree.

    Vive la différence!

    The only issue in recent months has been the difficulty in posting on the main Forum, errors meaning it can take three or four attempts to actually make a post - it certainly damps the enthusiasm at times!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-28-2010 8:31 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    I agree with Puncher. If you want to see what a sycophants forum looks like then take a look at one or two of the share investment forums on a site like iii.co.uk: here you find everyone trying to ramp-up the share price of their investments and woe betide anyone who makes a negative point, no matter how valid it might be.

    Of course, if the real purpose of Beoworld is to raise the share price of B&O then that's the way to go!

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 12-28-2010 9:02 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld in Decline

    Dude1:

    I think we should ALWAYS agree with you Trip. You make such profound statements. What could anyone else offer.

    I've been trying to bring my wife around to this point of view for years. She remains unconvinced.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

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