tournedos:

I suppose it would take five philosophers with five forks to drink it...

Lovely reference - thank you - and I had never heard the term "livelock" before !

Takes me back to my days of JES3 batch job scheduling ... and other earlier times when people requested 5 tape drives when we only had 4

Perhaps the forum is simply mirroring people's disenchantment with bno ?

Ever thought that ??

Times have moved on , but they haven't .

I've been a poster here since 2003 in the old old days and you still hear the same things from people and bno just DON'T LISTEN , they're arrogant beyond belief for such an infinitesimal market share. 

Closed shops , cancelled product lines , massive losses .

Doom and gloom ? It's the reality of a recession . Bno have to seriously re evaluate their place in the market if they hope to have any future whatsoever . from what I've seen recently they haven't got a hope in hell.

 

Be careful Flappo. You have an opinion - and you appear to have a low amount of posts - double trouble 'round these parts!

Why do you have so few posts? You have been here for ages - have you re-registered?

On a previous post aboout the forum being too genteel; that is what makes this forum so pleasant to deal with - people are on the whole polite and listen to what others say. (Exceptions do occur!) I think that this is a good thing and will personally encourage the site to remain this way.

I could put this in the Beosound8 thread, but will place it here.

Some of B&O's problems stem from the fact that they have been chasing margins among customers far divorced from their level of brand sophistication. The customers most informed about B&O's inherent qualities are among those least catered to by the brand's main activities; while the customers who are simply looking for brand cachet have been the target of the same.

A few years ago (2003-2004) I worked on the strategy for the European launch of the 400h hybrid from Lexus, and in that connection the slide below was used, in order to show Lexus how luxury has evolved, and where to aim its efforts. Recognizing the importance of the emerging sophisticated personal luxury market, Lexus decided to implement a painless ownership experience that was unmatched by any other brand in the category - and to do this in many dimensions.

Look at the slide. B&O is catering to several levels at the same time, while not communicating its brand sophistication. In many of the markets that the brand had the highest hopes for, before the financial crisis, it's the luxury dimension on the left that is being addressed. The hole in the ground that is Dubai being the worst expression of this.
The people at B&O who pushed this strategy unfortunately survived the management changes and are of course reluctant to admit that they pointed the brand in the wrong direction. It was a survival strategy, in an attempt to chase margins through manufacturing for a market segment that doesn't care about price, as long as it is high enough -- but which led to the brand chasing away the people who were supposed to create store traffic, as they didn't find anything they recognized as true B&O, or that they even found affordable.

Ironically, B&O is one of the brands that initially drove the sophisticated luxury dimension during the 70s to late 80s.

The US, while in the midst of its credit fueled building euphoria, pushed the "I've arrived" strategy relentlessly, while not doing anything to build an understanding of B&O sophistication in the market. Couple that with the "the unit comes with floor heating and B&O A/V" in the realtor's brochure for the development, and you begin to understand how into the wilderness the brand wandered.

Several threads on BeoWorld are providing very good feedback as to what potential and actual customers want or seek from the brand, and the gist of these is that the brand should cater to the sophisticated segment on the right, through innovative solutions in that dimension.

Imagine, if you will, a B&O home installation that monitors air quality and adjusts filtration and oxygenation of same ... keeping you sharp and alert, and contributing to your respiratory health. The same installation wakes you with light, attuned to your sleep cycle, simulating dawn through your curtains ...
B&O should also be the first to provide easy and convenient integration of our digital lives, the same way they provided easy and convenient access to our analog entertainment; but it could go far beyond just storage and retrieval of music and movies. We're all heading into a future where we will have to do some wise management of our digital footprints, as anything from paying bills to being in touch with authorities moves online -- can B&O provide ease and convenience here?
And what about piping digital experiences exclusive to B&O customers into their homes, using broadband - a major project detailing this opportunity was nixed at a time that legion sports organizations, concert halls, operas and performers were willing to jump on board with the brand. 

Instead, the brand's needle got stuck in an unsophisticated version of hardware luxury that leaves the most brand-informed among B&O's customers unimpressed, and looking elsewhere.

Knowing what I know of the installation market that B&O has been pursuing, I know it's brand death in two ways:

1. With B&O becoming the universal A/V in a condominium or residential development, it loses the premium cachet required for it to be a stand-out brand. It becomes a utility ... and it is chosen by developers/architects, not by the owners of the units (check out B&O's own pages for the truth of that). http://www.bang-olufsen.com/professionals

2. And when they do sell a magnum installation (or several) to the superwealthy, it's not the superwealthy person who is doing the selection, Trip's anecdotes notwithstanding. This individual is far removed from the purchasing decision, and has very little brand awareness in most instances - choosing the product for the unsophisticated reasons that are detrimental to the brand's standing.

Earlier, I wrote that this thread made little sense - it was calling for the cessation of discussions about the B&O brand, painting a number of forum members as ignorant, misinformed, etc. The whole point of an independent brand enthusiast's thread must be to have open discussion - and there are those who have left BeoWorld, or been critical, because they feel the forum has been too accommodating towards B&O's interests, particularly in respecting publication deadlines for new product info. (I'm in the camp that would like to see more from the 3 sheep outside HQ, for instance -- as proof of BeoWorld's independence.)

B&O has gone through hell before, and has survived because of its tenacious obduracy (maybe a tautology, that). The brand will probably survive this time, as well, but it is having to double back and fast after picking the wrong path at a crossroads, and playing catch-up was never necessary, given its brilliant odds going in. But B&O was captive to legacy decisions, just as SONY and others have struggled with the same, and that created openings for others, who moved into the vacant positions that the category leaders chose to ignore.

It will be very interesting to follow the developments over the next two years.

The technically minded can do as much home automation as they like using Lintronics at a reasonable cost: the well-heeled without time for such things can get B&O installers like Trip to set it all up for them at a cost.

B&O has always appealed to those appreciative of both design and quality and who didn't want a standard set of tin boxes. Unfortunately when the technical content starts to dissappoint, customers start to look stupid: they've paid way over the odds for what? Let's hope that B&O are really turning away from the customer with more money than sense and are looking for customers willing to pay for truly outstanding products.

Graham

EDIT. Beoworld will thrive whatever the outcome: the worst will be that it becomes a vintage enthusiasts site.

vikinger:

B&O has always appealed to those appreciative of both design and quality and who didn't want a standard set of tin boxes. Unfortunately when the technical content starts to dissappoint, customers start to look stupid: they've paid way over the odds for what? Let's hope that B&O are really turning away from the customer with more money than sense and are looking for customers willing to pay for truly outstanding products.

An excellent way of putting it and I totally agree. One thing that does infuriate me is that wealthy people who have the ability to afford B&O and then some, can tend to avoid the products. I will give you an example, my better halfs parents have the means to purchase B&O quite easily, but don't. Why - because the TV's lack the differentiation for the money and a few of their friends have the products, but they have had issues with software and dealerships etc. So instead they choose a Philips LCD, which actually does have a reasonable picture, for under a quarter of the price. He's not a mug and he told me point blank in a frank conversation about B&O that we had recently, 'look I love the design, but it's not worth the money'.

I think in the instance of the BS5 for example, this rings true. Sure it does a few things well, but at the end of the day, it plays music. The BS9000 plays music and has substance and I think with this product, people really understood that. They could see the engineering, the design and the function. (I even visited some client's homes where it stood unconnected to any speakers - they saw it as a price of art!) From the dealers I have spoken to, the BS5 lacks these crucial elements and it sort of gets a bit lost. It's a great idea, but for the money, it seems to be wanting. Maybe it if had a touch screen as well as the spinning wheel mechanism - or some sort of cd clamper - I'm not sure.

For me, the biggest thing that B&O have lost is a connection. Some products no longer have the wow elements of old - moving stands (BV8 as an entry level TV), amazing colour selections - (AV5 / Avant etc) and some products look a tad OK, but not amazing like some designs we have seen. The speakers are also losing the amazing attraction of the use of aluminium of old. Remember the impression the BL1's used to make! This is where people with the money, do their homework and look at B&O, then buy Loewe or Sony, or Samsung or an alternative. Because at the end of the day, some of that stuff looks good, creates an impression and costs a fraction of what B&O does. Mr. Smart Money then goes on holiday, or buys a watch, or a car or something else with his change.

Just a thought - don't tell Trip though...

B & O's LCD TVs are based on a still evolving technology.

So,a potential buyer has to ask if the purchase of a premium priced TV based on an immature technology is a wise decision.

Or should he wait for that technology to mature,and buy a cheaper product as a 'holding' solution.

Would the purchase of a Mark 1/2 BV7 have been a wise decision given the subsequent iterations?

I always loved the classic Jensen designs , the hidden from view under a lid , but if you wanted to get technical it was there. Now there's nothing hidden from view as there's nothing to hide !

I've long maintained that bno need not only a new direction but a new main designer , Lewis has become stale and boring he's also anti-computers ( he even admits that ) and probably a bit of a techno phobe. The beov 8 is simply one of the ugliest tv's ever made imo as well as being a dust trap with that ridiculous lower lip - doesn't anyone do any product testing anymore ?

Jensen never was , he was always on the cutting edge and bno were with him ; tangential tracking arms , dolby hx pro , surround sound.

Quite sad really.

My tips ; Hire a new designer , young and technologically aware and stop trying to compete with the big boys. Stick to what you've excelled at for over 50 years ! Leave the stuff in the middle for people like Apple , just ensure that what you make has got plenty of connections and is as compatible as possible and you'll do well , believe me. Maybe hire a few half decent software engineers while you're at it - oh and avoid windows like the plague.

Oh , and yes i was flappo the grate but I decided to re reg as a gold member to a. show my support for lee , peter and the site & b. maybe win a bno tea cosie or two !

Soundproof (I'm not going to reply with quote or this thing will get very lengthy), I was not at all calling for a cessation of discussions about the brand, I was essentially looking for this one! I don't disagree with anything you've said. 

Specifically, on you second point, I think (and hope) that when I've discussed my stores' approach to B&O, which does involve selling through designers and specifiers, that I'm not making a judgement as to this being my ideal path. I'm simply stating that it's a reason I'm expanding and hiring when other shops are closing doors. I can't design products, I can't execute corporate strategy. I have to take the company as I find it and at this point it's particularly well suited to the type of work I do. 

I think I've also mentioned frequently how I miss the earlier days when I could sell to a wider audience and foster an appreciation of the design, the performance, and the heritage in clients whose interested were in line with our brand. 

In one sense I've been with B&O for too long to just pull the signs down and become English AV or something, but on the other hand, I really don't think I could build a business on any other system. The serial control giants of yesteryear are having their lunch eaten because their only value is in their programmers . All of their abilities are theoretical until deftly applied at the very last step. I can't tell you how many six figure systems I've pulled out of homes and thrown in the garbage, while little old ladies still bring in their 1970s BeoMasters for a tune-up. Add to that the fact that the subsidiary product lines that used to require a Crestron-like system are exceeding even Crestron's ability to add usability.

Let's face it, the majority of home automation is lighting, shades, HVAC, and AV. With the launch of Lutron QS and t-stats going live on RA2, who needs Crestron? Who needs AMX? Savant? Time to sell the vans and tools and scoop ice cream. 

Fortunately the sins of TBS are falling by the wayside. Those were truly years in the wilderness. I would say that if B&O has a chance to regain its past glory, it will be under HKN. The strategy to revamp the entire line from the inside out and shift our profitability away from stale old products to new competitive ones has already made headway. The oldest product that still sells in my shops is the BeoVision 7.

We're a small company and our name recognition sets Apple-like expectations when we have the cash flow of a night bartender. I have high hopes for us and the products I see in the coming year are all on target. I agree that as a company we're not sure who we're selling to or why, but we just started work with Ogilvy & Mather, so hopefully we'll be able to sort ourselves out as these products are released. 

Christmas cheer across the pond to you, Trip. B&O is a fabulous brand with an amazing history, and some illuminating prospects. I have hopes for what the new crew can accomplish, and look forward to what the near future will bring. 

I think that the new CEO has exactly the background required to bring out the performance excellence in what the audio and video engineers at B&O are capable of, and I'm looking forward to experiencing how that will be expressed in the years to come. But I also rue the fact that some major opportunities were wasted in recent years, and hope it's still time to catch up.

My daughter and I are listening to Bach's Christmas Oratorium, under the direction of Ton Koopman, in my listening room, following the score and feeling blessed that we are listening to it through the BeoLab 5s - a wonderful experience, made even more interesting by the "slideshow of cathedral painted windows of Europe" that I've put together for the occasion.

 

To you as well, SP. 

I really do like to spar and I hope that no one takes my gambits as anything other than an impassioned defense of a brand that I've tied my livelihood to. I've been a fan for way longer than I've drawn a paycheck and look forward to the next generation of products.

I look forward to more debate in the new year!

-T 

This is an interesting thread – and I think that the views here are so diverse simply because the relationship with a brand depends on how you use/relate to the brand.

My feeling is that Beoworlders fall broadly into three categories, depending on the relationship with the brand.

Industry – Trip, Opman and others here see the brand from the inside looking out. Depending on the type of store, retailers will still hold a diverse range of views.

Regular Consumer – Users of Beo-stuff domestically, albeit with a deeper interest in the brand than most owners – that interest is apparent by simply being present on this forum. The B&O “magic” has rubbed off in some way – reasons will vary - maybe technical, maybe aesthetic - but they want to know more, and share the interest with like minded folk.

Technical Consumer / Hobbyist – Often with a tekkie background, and often interested in products for what they are and how they are designed/made, as much as for what they actually do. Regular consumers will often become techie hobbyists over time as interest builds.

There are a few hybrid members here too – people on the fringes of the industry supplying accessories or services, or involved in the used/resale market. It's interesting to note that many such people started as happy owners, who saw a way to earn a living working with a brand they love - a real testament to the brand, and an overlooked side to the B&O appeal - not many Sony resellers out there...

Nothing new here in truth – all these behaviors can be seen in the world of nice guitars/watches/pens etc etc.  B&O are probably unique in the AV world though.

For my part, my views are informed by spending most of my working life so far in Beoland.

 

My working relationship with B&O spanned almost exactly twenty years – from mid 1990 through to April 2010 – in that time I went from working as a Beolink installer, to Shop Manager, Area Manager and finally to being a Solus Store Dealer Principal.

In this time, I saw the UK distribution model change radically – in part due to the needs of a changing product line-up, but also because of different retail models being actively pushed by B&O through the UK management headquarters.

From the long standing distribution via “crown” centres and department stores, there was a broad move away from the high street in the early/mid 90's, into the more “specialist” retailers – many Linn dealers were approached (way before Linn distributed Loewe in the UK). B&O were starting the move to solus shops, or the “compromise” shop-in-shops, with B&O products available in the same store as other brands, but not in the same display area – the Beo-display is self-contained within its own branded area.

In the 90's, these specialised retailers were often in tertiary locations rather than on the high street, and these dealers were often at the forefront of multi-room install in the UK. I recall going up to Glasgow in about 1992 (ish) to do the very first Linn Knekt installation training course just a couple of days after being Gloucester for a Beolink course.

However, a few changes of personnel at B&O UK HQ, and another “vision” saw a move back to the high street in the late 90's, and the very active campaign to open franchised solus shops during the last 10 years, with no competing brands for sale in the same outlet.

During these changing retail models, the products moved from analogue to digital and from tube to panel.

Products like BeoSound 8 will always split opinion, and I think in many ways the reaction to this new product sums up what Trip was getting at when he started the thread.

Describing other opinions as “ignorance, wish-thinking, and hyperbole” may be a harsh way to sum up differing views – and dismissing genuine concerns and speculation as a “ hornets' nest of unsophisticated pessimistic blather” is perhaps ignoring some very valid points – but I see exactly what Trip means.

Interesting times ahead... 2011 will be an important year for Bang & Olufsen.

Anyway - back to my (new) work, so Seasons Greeting to everyone here, and all the best for 2011.

 

The biggest problem with B&O is we keep saying 20XX is going to be an important year for the company. I think actions speak louder than words, and if this coming year there is little action, it won't matter how many words are spoken or written - they will disappear into the abyss.

folkdeejay:

My feeling is that Beoworlders fall broadly into three categories, depending on the relationship with the brand.

Industry – Trip, Opman and others here see the brand from the inside looking out. Depending on the type of store, retailers will still hold a diverse range of views.

Regular Consumer – Users of Beo-stuff domestically, albeit with a deeper interest in the brand than most owners – that interest is apparent by simply being present on this forum. The B&O “magic” has rubbed off in some way – reasons will vary - maybe technical, maybe aesthetic - but they want to know more, and share the interest with like minded folk.

Technical Consumer / Hobbyist – Often with a tekkie background, and often interested in products for what they are and how they are designed/made, as much as for what they actually do. Regular consumers will often become techie hobbyists over time as interest builds.

I know you said "Beoworlders fall broadly", and maybe its vanity on my part, but I would rather call people such as myself and my fellow Beoworlders as "prosumer", and then define "consumer" as those who buy B&O (for what ever of the reasons, aesthetics, style, reputation) and then live happily ever after.

I guess I am saying that Beoworld membership is a cachet in its own right that defines one as being different: as you say with a deeper interest (e.g. those who are collectors without being rescuers) than most (average?) owners.

 

elephant:

I guess I am saying that Beoworld membership is a cachet in its own right that defines one as being different.

 

Maybe 'special' would be a better word!

(For the non native English speakers, special has gone from meaning exclusive or extraordinary to the new meaning, of remedial!)

 

Elephant, I once spoke to UK dealers about prosumers ...

Enough years ago that I think this is no longer under NDA.

 

 

An excellent slide !

I was most interested by the underlined passage at the top of the second column ... at first I read it as "competition" which surprised me so I reread it and found it most apt :-)

Not sure why the focus on BeoLab 5 and BeoLiving ... surely a tough entry point for a lowly prosumer :-) 

But I am really hoping the Encore will be terrific :-)

Happy New Year's Eve everyone !!!

Doctor:

elephant:

I guess I am saying that Beoworld membership is a cachet in its own right that defines one as being different.

 

Maybe 'special' would be a better word!

(For the non native English speakers, special has gone from meaning exclusive or extraordinary to the new meaning, of remedial!)

 

Peter - perhaps on the spectrum, we are in fact all a bit "SEN"  - Specialist Electronics Needy....

folkdeejay:

Peter - perhaps on the spectrum, we are in fact all a bit "SEN"  - Specialist Electronics Needy....

Or the other way round: Nerdy* Electronics Specialists :)

*In a positive way

BeoFab:

TripEnglish:

burantek:

I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

One of their purest failures.

LOL

The same old story. The glass is half empty or half full?.

The world is full of failed attempts until you get the right one, ask Thomas Alva Edison, he found thousands of ways to make a "non working" light bulb until he finally found one way to make a "working" one. Perseverance and optimism at its best. Unfortunately I see some lack of the latter in this forum lately.

 

Yup - he copied off Joseph Swan!

Puncher:

BeoFab:

TripEnglish:

burantek:

I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

One of their purest failures.

LOL

The same old story. The glass is half empty or half full?.

The world is full of failed attempts until you get the right one, ask Thomas Alva Edison, he found thousands of ways to make a "non working" light bulb until he finally found one way to make a "working" one. Perseverance and optimism at its best. Unfortunately I see some lack of the latter in this forum lately.

 

Yup - he copied off Joseph Swan!

Sometimes in life you need a shortcut!!!!! (ask Bill Gates)

BeoFab:

Puncher:

BeoFab:

TripEnglish:

burantek:

I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

One of their purest failures.

LOL

The same old story. The glass is half empty or half full?.

The world is full of failed attempts until you get the right one, ask Thomas Alva Edison, he found thousands of ways to make a "non working" light bulb until he finally found one way to make a "working" one. Perseverance and optimism at its best. Unfortunately I see some lack of the latter in this forum lately.

 

Yup - he copied off Joseph Swan!

Sometimes in life you need a shortcut!!!!! (ask Bill Gates)

 

Wonderful initiative Trip!

I do my best on the forum to be 100% constructive and maintain a positive and forward thinking attitude.

Lately it probably seems like I haven't been all too involved, I plainly just didn't have Internet access! I used up all of my free time (break between quarters) with an epic European vacation and haven't been able to progress on my open ended projects. With school it's very hard to do anything but talk. This summer I was able to do my first photo-thread. When I can't do something like that I try and contribute to the other side of BeoWorld, the articles and reference section. I like writing (although I'm no good!) and want to leave my mark on here in more ways than by just posting on the forum. It probably seems like I have given up on the writing (I promised a few more that are in the works on Peter's pinned thread) but I can assure you they are coming!! Trying to do my part but I have so very little free time.

As far as anonymity,

I am Evan Bunner. I have a facebook account, friend me! I would like to meet at least one of you fine gents in person one day, as I've never met anyone from BeoWorld!

Puncher:

BeoFab:

Puncher:

BeoFab:

TripEnglish:

burantek:

I guess you don't remember B&o's attempt at a forum?

One of their purest failures.

LOL

The same old story. The glass is half empty or half full?.

The world is full of failed attempts until you get the right one, ask Thomas Alva Edison, he found thousands of ways to make a "non working" light bulb until he finally found one way to make a "working" one. Perseverance and optimism at its best. Unfortunately I see some lack of the latter in this forum lately.

 

Yup - he copied off Joseph Swan!

Sometimes in life you need a shortcut!!!!! (ask Bill Gates)

 

Or Steve Jobs... (Xerox)