TripEnglish:

Puncher:

Same old Trip - as helpful, contstructive and informative as always! I could argue but why bother, you are of course correct - the Samsung is cr4p with little technological worth........it is also likely to be the heart of next years BV7, after Samsung haved moved onto something else.

I'm not sure you could argue. I haven't seen it happen successfully yet. Of course Samsung will be the panels we use. Then we'll add a surround sound processor. Then we'll add video processing. Then we'll add integrated projector support. Then we'll add a PUC to control attached peripherals. Then we'll add a blu-ray player. Then we'll add a 750watt sound system. Then we'll add special anti-glare front glass. Then we'll add hand-machined aluminum. Then we'll add a silent motorized stand or bracket. Then we'll add a masterlink socket. Then we'll add an audio system that plugs into it with a single cable for a completely integrated AV system. Then we'll add a network of sound & video products to link up from elsewhere in the home. Then we'll offer an automation interface to integrate lighting, shades, and temperature. Then we'll add an iPhone app to run it. Then we'll add a 3-year warranty. Then we'll inspire a forum where people can complain about it. 

EXACTLY!!!

And also in multiple different color combinations to match any decor.

OH but no wait it doesn't have dozens of HDMI imputs (hello!!! hdmi expander) and "apps" built in so is no good enough then... Yeah sure.

At the end of the day, though, who cares? Threads like these crop up from time to time and I don't think a single mind has ever been changed. If a B&O fan could ever be satisfied with a Samsung panel, they're a fan for different reasons than me.  

BeoFab:

TripEnglish:

Puncher:

Same old Trip - as helpful, contstructive and informative as always! I could argue but why bother, you are of course correct - the Samsung is cr4p with little technological worth........it is also likely to be the heart of next years BV7, after Samsung haved moved onto something else.

I'm not sure you could argue. I haven't seen it happen successfully yet. Of course Samsung will be the panels we use. Then we'll add a surround sound processor. Then we'll add video processing. Then we'll add integrated projector support. Then we'll add a PUC to control attached peripherals. Then we'll add a blu-ray player. Then we'll add a 750watt sound system. Then we'll add special anti-glare front glass. Then we'll add hand-machined aluminum. Then we'll add a silent motorized stand or bracket. Then we'll add a masterlink socket. Then we'll add an audio system that plugs into it with a single cable for a completely integrated AV system. Then we'll add a network of sound & video products to link up from elsewhere in the home. Then we'll offer an automation interface to integrate lighting, shades, and temperature. Then we'll add an iPhone app to run it. Then we'll add a 3-year warranty. Then we'll inspire a forum where people can complain about it. 

EXACTLY!!!

And also in multiple different color combinations to match any decor.

OH but no wait it doesn't have dozens of HDMI imputs (hello!!! hdmi expander) and "apps" built in so is no good enough then... Yeah sure.

I too must say EXACTLY!!!

And don't forget the addition of a remote that actually works anywhere in the room and doe not have to be pointed exactly in the right direction.

TripEnglish:

Puncher:

Same old Trip - as helpful, contstructive and informative as always! I could argue but why bother, you are of course correct - the Samsung is cr4p with little technological worth........it is also likely to be the heart of next years BV7, after Samsung haved moved onto something else.

I'm not sure you could argue. I haven't seen it happen successfully yet. Of course Samsung will be the panels we use. Then we'll add a surround sound processor. Then we'll add video processing. Then we'll add integrated projector support. Then we'll add a PUC to control attached peripherals. Then we'll add a blu-ray player. Then we'll add a 750watt sound system. Then we'll add special anti-glare front glass. Then we'll add hand-machined aluminum. Then we'll add a silent motorized stand or bracket. Then we'll add a masterlink socket. Then we'll add an audio system that plugs into it with a single cable for a completely integrated AV system. Then we'll add a network of sound & video products to link up from elsewhere in the home. Then we'll offer an automation interface to integrate lighting, shades, and temperature. Then we'll add an iPhone app to run it. Then we'll add a 3-year warranty. Then we'll inspire a forum where people can complain about it. 

100% spot on!!!

Agreed!

TripEnglish:

At the end of the day, though, who cares? Threads like these crop up from time to time and I don't think a single mind has ever been changed. If a B&O fan could ever be satisfied with a Samsung panel, they're a fan for different reasons than me.  

HI trip i just hope the CEO do not think the same if he did we are doomed!!,i do respect trying to fight your corner same here in the view to bring B&O back to it's usual luster what you said is true but the sales has not has it ??now you know why

Ed7, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they're arguing from their heart or their gut, but on a discussion forum you're going to be challenged on your facts if you misrepresent them. I understand that you could see all the benefits of a current B&O product and still decide it's not for you, but that's a personal opinion and not a factual statement on the general condition of the brand. 

Fortunately sales are picking up. They will likely continue to do so based as much on the economy's perceived stability as our innovations and product launches.

Looking from this side of the pond where B&O itself and most of its customers are, the economy is far from stable. It looked good for a while starting last summer, but it seems that there are still some fuses burning...

It's this new sociocapitalistic world order, where banks take care of the profits and taxpayers take care of the losses. Well, perhaps more of the B&O clientele belongs to the former group.

TripEnglish:

Fortunately sales are picking up. 

I know it's Pantomime season, but i have to say 'oh no they're not' ...

UK Sales are dismal for all but a few dealers.  Europe is pretty much the same - so i assume Dollars are flowing freely and things are on the up in the States.  Good news - at least someone has the sun coming over the horizon!

Lee

I was not trying to misrepresent the brand merely stating  the final products,( not as good as the good B&O) we knew,i owned an avant more than happy with it despite the fact was Phillips tube in it or other make,the product was stunning all round also back to the HDMI argument which some dismisses as not big deal,what was the avant good selling point amounts others it had 3 scart sockets too,

9 LEE:

TripEnglish:

Fortunately sales are picking up. 

I know it's Pantomime season, but i have to say 'oh no they're not' ...

UK Sales are dismal for all but a few dealers.  Europe is pretty much the same - so i assume Dollars are flowing freely and things are on the up in the States.  Good news - at least someone has the sun coming over the horizon!

Lee

 

Now that is a fact here and you been challenged

Yeah and I bet LV, Hermes, Cartier, rolex, pattek phillipe, Loewe...etc are all going bankrupt tomorrow along with B&O.

And also Apple because you know what, they are using parts in their products that are not made by them....

And then I woke up.

B&O were so innovative in their early days they survived despite the 30's depression and their customers in those days were the very wealthy experimenting with transformers, radio and gramophones. They did broaden their market and appeal later though, with bakelite cased radios before focussing on the designs with architect input/appeal.

I personally can see that ICEpower is opening the door to both restoring B&O's technical/HiFi reputation and the production of uniquely designed casings at a whole range of prices. B&O will no doubt have a strategy for surviving the recession........... they can never compete with the standard units produced by Samsung etc by the million at incredibly low prices. The big danger is that far east producers will use design houses like Jensen (as Toshiba have done).

Ultimately B&O have to produce TV and Audio that seem more like works of art or high craftsmanship with fully upgradeable/ repairable electronics inside. They can then differentiate themselves once again and their customers will no longer fear the rapid dating of the electronics.

(On the otherhand, as Mika suggests above, maybe the banker class are the customers now and B&O think their customer base secure (in which case why are my B&O shares not worth a lot more?))

Graham

There was a post here from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx disappeared!!!?? not had a drink yet but it is gone!!!

TripEnglish:

I'm not sure you could argue. I haven't seen it happen successfully yet. Of course Samsung will be the panels we use. Then we'll add a surround sound processor. Then we'll add video processing. Then we'll add integrated projector support. Then we'll add a PUC to control attached peripherals. Then we'll add a blu-ray player. Then we'll add a 750watt sound system. Then we'll add special anti-glare front glass. Then we'll add hand-machined aluminum. Then we'll add a silent motorized stand or bracket. Then we'll add a masterlink socket. Then we'll add an audio system that plugs into it with a single cable for a completely integrated AV system. Then we'll add a network of sound & video products to link up from elsewhere in the home. Then we'll offer an automation interface to integrate lighting, shades, and temperature. Then we'll add an iPhone app to run it. Then we'll add a 3-year warranty. Then we'll inspire a forum where people can complain about it.

Great how Trip summarizes the "multidimensional B&O purchase decision" ... and then you can service the equipment after 10 years without problem... it is so simple. The ones who buy B&O buy the entire package and not just a branded component.

While I should know better I'm going to re-post my original entry -

It also has to be said that the Samsung is incredibly well featured, is actually very good looking (and some would say make the BV7-55 look large, clumsy & dated) and has one or two quite innovative features. It also comes with speakers (admittedly not very good).

A quote from a Techradar review - "Arguably more than any TV before - including stuff from the likes of Loewe and B&O - the UE55C9000 is more an objet d’art than a TV, wearing innovation, opulence and 'because we can' bravado out there on its gleaming, frankly unbelievably thin sleeve".

I'm not saying they're right but it is yet another warning shot across the bows, whereby updating designs such as the BV7 over a period of years may not be enough to maintain their leading edge.

Nowhere did I mention it was better value or, heaven forbid, a better TV. I felt it worth mentioning that it is drawing comments from reviewers such as that above and others (Whathifi call it "staggering" and a "technological Tour de Force"). My point was that as the BV7 heads into it's 5th or so year some believe it to look dated, and continually changing the panel in the same chassis isn't the going to keep it at the cutting edge. Meanwhile some bigger manufacturers, with bigger budgets and control over panel supply are moving into the "Eurodesign" area.

B&O just need to be careful they don't have their noses in the air while others pull the rug from under their feet!

BeoFab:

Yeah and I bet LV, Hermes, Cartier, rolex, pattek phillipe, Loewe...etc are all going bankrupt tomorrow along with B&O.

And also Apple because you know what, they are using parts in their products that are not made by them....

And then I woke up.

 Loewe is having a tough time.

Lower gross profit leads to an EBIT loss of EUR 9.1 million

Tim

Lee,

While sales aren't soaring, they have been steadily improving. Most of the shops that focus on custom install are doing well in my market. It's the stores that have not evolved away from a retail model that are shutting their doors or preparing to. Hoping to sell a walk-in customer on a BeoVision 10 or a BeoSound 5 is a losing prospect. Has nothing to do with value at all, but how the affluent shop. They may buy clothes and jewelry in a showroom, but anything that winds up installed in their homes is specified at the design level by their architect or interior designer. It's partnerships with those proxies that has allowed shops to thrive. I'll keep on preaching this even after the economy rebounds. A return to strong retail sales will be a bonus at that point. 

Puncher, 

I hear what you're saying and you're not wrong. Under KHN, though, we've been quicker to market (astonishingly so considering how backwards development used to be) and more efficient (i.e. the development of universal AV boards across multiple platforms) in our engineering. Not only are the new products finally leading in sales, but they're refreshed quicker than at any time in recent history. If old management was still at he helm I'd be very worried that any traction we made was simply happenstance and could vanish as easily as it appeared, but there is a clear and focused direction under KHN that everyone felt in DK a few months ago. The current lineup is the best I've ever seen it and truly competitive. The products being launched in the coming years are dynamite. Moreover the narrative that animates the portfolio is the tightest I've seen it. I don't think there's any chance of us losing the ground we've been gaining this past fiscal year. I know I'm not going to let it happen in my corner of the market. 

Play nicely everyone!

It's sad to hear Loewe made a loss. They are no B&O but are on the right track.

End of the day, I think B&O appeals to two, well three, types of people - The ultra rich, people who appreciate great design and functionality and the third being the ultra-rich who appreciate good design and functionality.

The reality is that we all know B&O is expensive to buy. I suppose manufacturing in Denmark (for the majority of products) and expensive aluminium processing etc contributes toward this among other things. I certainly can't afford any new B&O other than perhaps a phone or Beosound 8 or something. In fact I had to replace my Avant 32" with a Loewe Individual due to the expense of say a BV-7. (The Loewe is still nice since I have the Rosewood option sides and the aluminium 'paravent' stand - However, I miss being able to control my AV stuff/sky/macmini with a Beo4!)

I own some vintage products (I use my 80s Beosystem 6000 and 70s Beolit 707 daily), and some newer products as well.

If I could afford to buy new then I absolutely would. I don't know if this is snobbery but I have no interest in having any LG or Samsung products whatsoever! After having B&O for years there it would just irritate me too much!

I tend to buy second hand rather than new generally - I have some high quality mid century furniture, I've always opted for classic Porsches and Alfas over faster, modern Japanese cars and when it comes to AV, it's pretty much always been B&O.

The price is never something thats concerned me really, I just buy within my means (which is usually second hand!)

As for the technology argument... I don't get bogged down with tech specs etc, if the picture and sound is good and the product is a joy to use, as well as looking fantastic, then I am happy basically. As are B&O and their listening/viewing panel as I understand it.

I'm not really sure what my point is to be honest but it would be a shame for B&O to go under after 85 years. Hopefully there will be enough wealthy people buying to keep B&O afloat for the next few years until the economy has stabilised!

Meanwhile it'll be eBay and local ad scouring for me until I make CEO! Hahaha

If the Austerity measures have an impact on the middle class like they are locally to me, and thus affect a significant percentage of sales, could B&O not try and make trading in more appealing. As an example I see plenty of Beovision 5's for sale but even though they look fantastic the lack of HD would put alot of people off buying one second hand.

If B&O stores could offer a better trade in price, which in turn helps these stores turn over more new gear, but in turn then get help to upgrade these sets to even a basic form of HD they would hopefully reinvigorate some of the market. When you look at other markets cars being one, many measures have been taken by the companies and countries alike. So called "scrapage" schemes have since helped dealers and some makers at least keep their heads above water. Some posters have mentioned they either can't afford to, or simply don't want to buy brand new, then making the trade in equipment more appealing or relevant would at least in part help. A Beovision 5 at a good price and HD fantastic. The person who wants a new 7 but won't get a good price for their 5 fantastic. B&O and its stores retailing more new equipment and making money out of the trade ins....

TripEnglish:

Lee,

While sales aren't soaring, they have been steadily improving. Most of the shops that focus on custom install are doing well in my market. It's the stores that have not evolved away from a retail model that are shutting their doors or preparing to. Hoping to sell a walk-in customer on a BeoVision 10 or a BeoSound 5 is a losing prospect. Has nothing to do with value at all, but how the affluent shop. They may buy clothes and jewelry in a showroom, but anything that winds up installed in their homes is specified at the design level by their architect or interior designer. It's partnerships with those proxies that has allowed shops to thrive. I'll keep on preaching this even after the economy rebounds. A return to strong retail sales will be a bonus at that point. 

 

Puncher, 

I hear what you're saying and you're not wrong. Under KHN, though, we've been quicker to market (astonishingly so considering how backwards development used to be) and more efficient (i.e. the development of universal AV boards across multiple platforms) in our engineering. Not only are the new products finally leading in sales, but they're refreshed quicker than at any time in recent history. If old management was still at he helm I'd be very worried that any traction we made was simply happenstance and could vanish as easily as it appeared, but there is a clear and focused direction under KHN that everyone felt in DK a few months ago. The current lineup is the best I've ever seen it and truly competitive. The products being launched in the coming years are dynamite. Moreover the narrative that animates the portfolio is the tightest I've seen it. I don't think there's any chance of us losing the ground we've been gaining this past fiscal year. I know I'm not going to let it happen in my corner of the market. 

And again, I really hope the new products cut the mustard.

To your earlier post reeling off the B&O benefits of integration, one remote etc. We've all seen in recent times (and discussed ad infinitum) other music systems that integrate the 'net and your LAN both over Ethernet and wirelessly and can play anything anywhere within your house. We've seen the rise of iTouch and iPad remote Apps and also dedicated two way remotes such as the Sonos and this particular Samsung, both with unique features but neither pretty nor particularly "high quality". We've seen this Samsung (and others from Panasonic, Sony etc) that have HD Freeview tuners, can connect and play video and audio content over the 'net or LAN by Ethernet of wirelessly from central media hubs. They update from the 'net automatically without a man having to come out (and be payed for the pleasure). They also control other compatible ancilliary equipment.

The point of all the above wiffle is that the applications are converging, everyone will have domestic networked music and video with one remote, it's inconceivable that it won't happen. I'm not advocating any of the above examples as the ideal solution, my point is that it will come soon and, as like as not, from a mainstream supplier. B&O are heading there too with their own Ethernet solution but the days of Masterlink standing alone as a market & technological leader in AV integration are all but over.

Their speakers stand out as their unique offering, many of them offering fantastic performance while some are even class leaders - exactly as it should be

For the rest of the products (and the TV's in particular), given the above, I believe they may need to offer more in the future than smoked glass and mirror finished aluminium.

 I hope folk don't take this as a critisism, they're just more reasons why I fear the ground is coming up to meet the B&O TV. If they manage to navigate around this and maintain their product line with new, class leading, innovative product then no one will be happier than I.

Puncher:

TripEnglish:

Lee,

While sales aren't soaring, they have been steadily improving. Most of the shops that focus on custom install are doing well in my market. It's the stores that have not evolved away from a retail model that are shutting their doors or preparing to. Hoping to sell a walk-in customer on a BeoVision 10 or a BeoSound 5 is a losing prospect. Has nothing to do with value at all, but how the affluent shop. They may buy clothes and jewelry in a showroom, but anything that winds up installed in their homes is specified at the design level by their architect or interior designer. It's partnerships with those proxies that has allowed shops to thrive. I'll keep on preaching this even after the economy rebounds. A return to strong retail sales will be a bonus at that point. 

 

Puncher, 

I hear what you're saying and you're not wrong. Under KHN, though, we've been quicker to market (astonishingly so considering how backwards development used to be) and more efficient (i.e. the development of universal AV boards across multiple platforms) in our engineering. Not only are the new products finally leading in sales, but they're refreshed quicker than at any time in recent history. If old management was still at he helm I'd be very worried that any traction we made was simply happenstance and could vanish as easily as it appeared, but there is a clear and focused direction under KHN that everyone felt in DK a few months ago. The current lineup is the best I've ever seen it and truly competitive. The products being launched in the coming years are dynamite. Moreover the narrative that animates the portfolio is the tightest I've seen it. I don't think there's any chance of us losing the ground we've been gaining this past fiscal year. I know I'm not going to let it happen in my corner of the market. 

 

And again, I really hope the new products cut the mustard.

To your earlier post reeling off the B&O benefits of integration, one remote etc. We've all seen in recent times (and discussed ad infinitum) other music systems that integrate the 'net and your LAN both over Ethernet and wirelessly and can play anything anywhere within your house. We've seen the rise of iTouch and iPad remote Apps and also dedicated two way remotes such as the Sonos and this particular Samsung, both with unique features but neither pretty nor particularly "high quality". We've seen this Samsung (and others from Panasonic, Sony etc) that have HD Freeview tuners, can connect and play video and audio content over the 'net or LAN by Ethernet of wirelessly from central media hubs. They update from the 'net automatically without a man having to come out (and be payed for the pleasure). They also control other compatible ancilliary equipment.

The point of all the above wiffle is that the applications are converging, everyone will have domestic networked music and video with one remote, it's inconceivable that it won't happen. I'm not advocating any of the above examples as the ideal solution, my point is that it will come soon and, as like as not, from a mainstream supplier. B&O are heading there too with their own Ethernet solution but the days of Masterlink standing alone as a market & technological leader in AV integration are all but over.

Their speakers stand out as their unique offering, many of them offering fantastic performance while some are even class leaders - exactly as it should be

For the rest of the products (and the TV's in particular), given the above, I believe they may need to offer more in the future than smoked glass and mirror finished aluminium.

 I hope folk don't take this as a critisism, they're just more reasons why I fear the ground is coming up to meet the B&O TV. If they manage to navigate around this and maintain their product line with new, class leading, innovative product then no one will be happier than I.

THANK YOU PUNCHER

Puncher is dead on as to the convergence of, well, everything!

That's one of the reasons I'm heartened by our direction right now. B&O has set out a road map that not only brings the home together, but essentially makes the B&O experience omnipresent for our users. There's not a lot to say on this other than to think about areas that B&O has been deploying tech to and how that could make a unified experience for the user that quite literally could not be matched. As the new products arrive, starting with the Encore in a month or so, things will become much clearer.

TripEnglish:

Puncher is dead on as to the convergence of, well, everything!

That's one of the reasons I'm heartened by our direction right now. B&O has set out a road map that not only brings the home together, but essentially makes the B&O experience omnipresent for our users. There's not a lot to say on this other than to think about areas that B&O has been deploying tech to and how that could make a unified experience for the user that quite literally could not be matched. As the new products arrive, starting with the Encore in a month or so, things will become much clearer.

Good - O!

Lets all hope they've finally got their act together with the right products!

Although Trip can often inadvertently press the wrong buttons of some people, i do admire his resolute defence of the brand. (sorry, defence comes up with red lines underneath as i type this - so for the sake of international relations... 'defense')

I would imagine his total enthusiasm serves him incredibly well with customers.  This is sales at it's leanest - you buy the person you are dealing with almost as much as the product.  I bet he does very, very well - and i take my hat off to him.

Remember though that we (as enthusiasts) see crap for what it is - and say it.  When you're selling something, you state its strengths and don't focus on its weaknesses - that's sales.  I do feel Trip has swallowed his own pitch sometimes, but that's just my opinion (which is worth little at todays exchange rate.. LOL) - but the main thing i'd like to state is that despite constant bombardment, he comes back every time - wearing fresh body armour and flying the flag of Struer.

Fair play Trip.

Give it 3 years and we'll all be true 'believers' again i'm sure.  Please don't for one moment think B&O are blissfully unaware of how they screwed up. They know.  Kalle Hvidt Nielsen has always had the same vision, which hasn't changed since the moment he sat at Torben's desk as the world collapsed around and within the company.  I have confidence in him as a CEO, but there's a lot of dead wood still needs clearing from the forest floor before the new trees grow.  Those people, I'm sure, know who they are - wether they are sales assistants or 'big suits'...

I feel B&O have rolled out some turkeys as 'gap fillers' to please the shareholders and press - but things will return to something like normal before long.  Every company has ups and downs, it's natural.  Recovering from a 'down' no matter how big or small, is the art of business.

Lee