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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 07-04-2007 1:13 PM by wonderfulelectric. 50 replies.
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  • 06-29-2007 10:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    355f:
    wonderfulelectric:
    The BL8000 will most probably be upgraded if it continues to remain in the lineup.
    The BL8000 was introduced more than ten yrs ago. The build-in amplifiers probably suffer from higher distortion of every kind and higher noise levels than most affordable amplifiers of today. Technological advances in the area of amplifiers are introduced very quickly which the same cannot be said for drive units. If icepower can perform above and beyond most of the amplifiers in the market today just imagine the leaps in sound quality. BL8000 will definitely benefit from this upgrade. 
    I think you should wait for the upgrade. B&O is probably waiting for the market response to recent upgrade for BL4000. They seem to be very cautious in making any moves although they are very bold in areas of product presentation. I speculate that the upgrade will be next yr.
    Icepower has become a tremendous asset to B&O, many firms are starting to adopt this technology. It is only the matter of time till everything goes Ice. 
    P.S I don't really care for the way they seem to skimp of the implementation of Icepower, just look at BL4000. They could have easily push two 100 watts modules without much increase in production costs in comparison to using a lower powered version. Their speakers uses heavy active equalisation, they can definitely benefit from more power. 

     

    Well firstly ICE power produces a somewhat cold sound, so it may not suit the character of speakers like the 8000. Actually the drive units are nothing special at all- maybe better investment in those could yield benefits.

     

    Now when it comes to power, power costs MONEY and B&O dont like doing that, why spend $30/30 more per unit for more power when the unit performs reasonably well anyway??  Digital technology is always assumed to be better- having worked in this busienss for some time, im afraid it means it can be made CHEAPER and yet sold at a HIGHER price!

     

    B&O should invest in better speakers. The other issue is - what are the limits of a 'lifestyle lightweight' with 3 or 4 " drivers?





    Oh my... Didn't know digital amplifier modules are cheaper. Well B&O can try to use an array of 3 inch drivers like those award winning speakers. I have no idea why they don't start using that yet since they pay so much attention to wide dipersion.
  • 06-29-2007 10:19 AM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Well B&O are a lifestyle hifi company they are not in the business of making the best sounding hifi- or ever have been. There are many better system designs that thy can adopt but I doubt it will increase sales much. B&O buyers generally buy it beacuse it looks good and that consideration outweighs the performance
  • 06-29-2007 10:59 AM In reply to

    • Beolab
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    Beolab:

    wonderfulelectric:
    Note that BeoLab 8000 came out over then yrs ago. The amplification section in BL8000 wouldn't even be able to compete with a budget amplifier of today. The frequency response is bad, damping factor also bad, slew rate very bad, noise bad so upgrading it with Ice will definitely make a marked improvement. Digital amplifiers aren't good at high frequency because they start to roll off early and that is probably the reason why they use AB amplifiers in Beolab 9 but it is making progress in this region, with a bit of tuning I am sure it is not even a problem. Many high end digital amplifiers are commented on having a sound quality very close to tube amplifiers and that is probably because of low time distortion.  To sum up, a swap to Icepower for the amplification section of BL8000 will definitely be an improvement. 

     

    Do you got any link to that fact that the amplifier have bad: dampingfaktor, frequency response, slew rate and more and more bad things?

    Dont you think B&O would now all these bad things with the A/B amps in bl8000, and fixed it with the upgrade 2004? Ore do they just ignore it ? 

     I think that the BL9 got the AB amps in the mid and high, because its sound a little wormer than the BL5 does? More HiFi than studio sound. Don´t you think the A/B amps in BL9 is simular to the BL8000 amps? 

    So my conclusion is that the BL8000 just have the Mid and high woofers so they dosent need ICE-power for the lower frequencys?  

     

    Best regards Fredrik L.



    Well maybe they have upgraded but I am not sure. Gosh I feel like I am being bombed here... lol.... 
    You see amplifiers from ten yrs ago have very high distortion and noise compared to current one because technology is not there yet. The simplest way to test whether BL8000s have bad amplifiers is to use a power conditioner, if the sound improves dramatically then we know they have a bad power supply and most likely have a bad power amplifier. The power supply in BL5 as you can tell from the exploded pic is fully regulated, just take a look at that humongous transformer so obviously a lot of care has been taken care in that area. BL9 may have used class A/B for mids and high because of costs consideration. You will have to put more work in making a digital amplifier sound great in those areas. Digital amplifiers can output high power with relatively low hikes in distortions unlike an analogue amplifier. There is nothing glorious about class A/B, for the price of Beolab 9, they should have used Class A or a sliding biased Class A amplifiers. Attention to detail is the key to luxury if they do not use a better amplifier for BL8000 just because of cost considerations and the lack of necessity then it must speak lots about their passion for better sound. A high-end sound system takes meticulous care of everything that effects the sound. Active loudspeaker may not require overengineered power amplifier but there will be a marked improvement with one. You see active loudspeakers with bad amplifiers and drivers will sound dramatically better than its non-active counterpart. B&O is smart to use active to produce best sound for cost production.  Sounds horrible. No? But it may be the best solution for the bad times B&O was in. Now things are changing with the BL9 and BL5 evidently. 

     

    I was just thinking of that! Do you got any link to a good power conditioner brand that do not cost more than 300 dollars?,

     

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 06-29-2007 12:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    355f:
    Well B&O are a lifestyle hifi company they are not in the business of making the best sounding hifi- or ever have been. There are many better system designs that thy can adopt but I doubt it will increase sales much. B&O buyers generally buy it beacuse it looks good and that consideration outweighs the performance


    Are you sure? I thought they used to be famous for their sound? Anyways I don't think their latest high end range of products are selling just because they look good. Take for example the Beolab 3. Teeny tiny but groundbreaking sound for their size. Sure it's not the best sound for amount paid. They are groundbreaking nonetheless. The Beolab5s are definitely a bargain and also very groundbreaking. I think as a company they have way better integrity than Bose. I don't like Bose. They exploit their past image to sell highly marked-up rubbish. Not good in build quality or design or whatsoever. I like B&O's fusion of practicality, edgy design, performance and service quality. However, they can do better. 
  • 06-29-2007 12:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    You can go www.psaudio.com . They are very famous for providing good value. Coincidentally they are using Icepower with their own unique gainstage for their range of power amplifiers which rocked the American hifi press. 
  • 06-30-2007 3:58 AM In reply to

    • Beolab
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Check this out! http://www.goldenagemusic.com/swe/hifi/index.html  a film were the test the passive PS audio Duet Power conditioner aginst Monster conditioner and more brands. It costs 380 dollars in sweden.

    Click here to see the movie: http://video.psaudio.com/video.html

    Regards 

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 07-02-2007 9:27 AM In reply to

    • Jez
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    There are other factors in a B&O product other than just the looks. Form, function, integration, ease of use, built quality. It's a well ballanced product that obviously has a market. I guess that's why they've been around longer than any other AV company (80 Years).
  • 07-02-2007 1:38 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Not true at all 355f! B&O have been manufacturers of fantastic hifi for years, some products more design based, others more purely about performance. The BeoLab 5000 system is a good example, BeoLab 5s the same. B&O do tend to put more focus into the design of their products than other companies, but that doesn't mean the main focus is design. In almost all cases, performance is the most important factor in B&O gear and functionality and design follow after that.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 07-02-2007 1:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    355f certainly hit a wrong button here !  he's got the sequence completely backwards ! I for one don't buy B&O because of their looks but because of all the other reasons to buy a very good stereo ! try listening to a BL5 e.g. pure sound quality and less looks, but I love them ! Audio means sound first- easy to use and looks second ! and just because B&O is just about the only company to succeed in a beautiful mix, does not mean looks are everything. just for the last few years other companies are discovering looks are important too and trying to follow.

     

    Leon: Beoworld's First "First Prize" winner. "Carpe Diem et Dolce Far Niente"
  • 07-02-2007 3:32 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Actually I agree in a way with 355f! I suppose I would define the looks as more than just that - ergonomics would come into it - but the vast majority of B&O equipment can be outperformed by cheaper products from other manufacturers.

    Whether these products will last as long or be built from such good materials is another matter of course.

    I am quite happy to admit that the major reason I buy B&O is the splendid looks and user interface. I would not buy it if it didn't sound good as well but that is not the be all and end all for me.

    I know we can quote the Beolab 5 and indeed Beolab 5000 system or Beolab 8000 system as examples of good sounding equipment, but to be fair, these were not and are not the big sellers. In 1980, there were two similar receivers - the 2400/1900 and the 2200.  Apart from a few people like me, who remembers the 2200? But it blows the 1900 away from a performance point of view! Didn't sell that well in comparison though as it lacked the touch sensitive buttons and swoopier styling! I bought the 2400 for the very reasons I have given - and I bet I wasn't the only one!

  • 07-02-2007 3:48 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Peter:

    ........................ Didn't sell that well in comparison though as it lacked the touch sensitive buttons and swoopier styling! I bought the 2400 for the very reasons I have given - and I bet I wasn't the only one!

    Thats what we need - much more swoopiness!Laughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 07-02-2007 4:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Yes, the spell checker didn't like it either! I know what I mean though! Laughing
  • 07-02-2007 5:09 PM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    beologisch:

    355f certainly hit a wrong button here !  he's got the sequence completely backwards ! I for one don't buy B&O because of their looks but because of all the other reasons to buy a very good stereo ! try listening to a BL5 e.g. pure sound quality and less looks, but I love them ! Audio means sound first- easy to use and looks second ! and just because B&O is just about the only company to succeed in a beautiful mix, does not mean looks are everything. just for the last few years other companies are discovering looks are important too and trying to follow.

     

     

    Really!! come on B&O serious audio- been making great audio for years?????????? many of the products were repacked Hitachi or phillips models

     

    B& O make very pretty packaged designs of average ability that look good; ok you can name the BL5 but the SEROUS audio people dont really consider that for various reasons. Its a good effort. I have a BV4 and BS3 and BL9 ect and I love it but for ythe cost of all this  I could buy many top end brands that would blow the pants off it in performance terms

    Whlist Im pleased one loves the BL5 can you tell me what high end source you are using that B&O produce!!!

     

    Fact is B&O is  high street lifestyle brand and the majority buy it for the looks!

  • 07-02-2007 5:28 PM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I love B&O for the style and working in this industry I can buy what I want. B&O manufacturing fantasic hifi for years??? im afraid to say that isnt true, it just isnt!
  • 07-02-2007 5:54 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    B&O did go through a rough phase in the 80s where they essentially repackaged other brand gear, the BeoCenter 2200 being an example of this, and it was a really bad time for B&O. However, the same is certainly not true for other products, and generally I would say B&O produce more of the materials and technologies in-house than other companies. Sure some things aren't that great, like the DVD1 (and the DVD2 by the looks of things), but the main products have almost always been of a very high standard of performance. BeoSystem 3 provides the best picture on the market IMO, and the BeoLab 9s and 5s are unrivalled in their respective price ranges. There are other examples in the B&O range that while they may be outperformed by cheaper equipment, cost more for a very good reason - superior build, integration and design!

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  • 07-02-2007 6:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Don't agree with that! B&O make a niche product. Yes, you can buy better sounding equipment but it won't be made from the same materials and it won't last as long. B&O do make great Hi-Fi , but they also make style icons. And most of it is not repackaged Philips or Hitachi! As with all makes, they use what they can get, but don't confuse components with end products. They use what they regard as the best for the job:

    Philips CD104 = Beogram CDX - but with a superior interface. Why? Because the 104 was one of the best there was!

    VX5000 - yes , Hitachi based. But find me a Hitachi that did what the VX5000 was capable of - and in a package to match. Designed by B&O.

    HX-Pro, ICE amplifiers, ALT technology - all either designed or brought to market by B&O. And don't forget two way communication, Beolink and the first decent tangential tracking turntables. 

     

  • 07-02-2007 6:05 PM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

     the BS3 ( this i agree with) the BL5  well...yes. The BL9 wellI have them , they are a nice speaker but NOT unrivalled for the price! look what one can buy for £5500!! Now when we are talking about superior build, in the past yes, if the continued move of B&O sourcing in China continues then that will no longer be true.

    B&O produce more materials and technolgy in house than oyther companies??? where did you get that from. A company like B&O simply cant afford that. They need the basis of another brands product upon which to work there are  afew exceptions but NOT MANY. I would say they produce LESS in house than ANY other company/

  • 07-02-2007 6:09 PM In reply to

    • cozza
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I'm glad the main point has been covered, several times in fact but for those of you that missed it, ICE amplification is much cheaper to manufacture than conventional types (initial R&D aside of course!). I don't see that reengineering existing products has any benefit to us as consumers, when the main focus of the exercise is to raise the profit margin on an existing product. 

    Bose has been producing Class D amplifiers for car manufacturers since about 1994, so the technology is in fact quite entrenched. It's only in the last few years that the switching frequency has increased enough to allow full range class D or T amplifiers to be produced.

     In new products, such as the BL3 and BL7.x, there is no way you could shoehorn the required multichannel high power amplification into the cabinet using conventional amplifiers. The difference in sound quality is pretty minimal (I think describing the sound of an ICE powered speaker as "cold" is quite amusing!)

  • 07-02-2007 6:36 PM In reply to

    • Jez
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    355 Ferrari: Electronics made by Magnetti Marrelli, brakes made by Brembo, tyres made by Pirreli or Bridgestone, Wheel bearings made in Australia! But I must admit (even being a McLaren fan since I was born) that the 355 is an amazing car in looks, built quality and performance. In that order too because Ferrari would go broke if it didn't look the way does. Just like B&O.

    Back to the original post, just buy the BL8000's. Great speaker!
  • 07-02-2007 7:08 PM In reply to

    • cozza
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    For the datasheet on the hybrid amplifer module in the Beolab 8000, see here...

    http://pdf1.alldatasheet.co.kr/datasheet-pdf/view/41609/SANYO/STK4231V.html

     I think it's quite a good match to the design of the speaker. Certainly they don't require anything higher powered, and given that the total harmonic distortion is 0.08% at 100 watts into 8 ohms, and at that power there would be more significant distortion introduced by the breakup and non linearities of the 4 inch woofers, why change it?

    For that matter, does anyone know the total harmonic distortion figures of ICE power modules? I wouldn't be surprised if they were quite high, given that they approximate the input signal by high frequency modulation of square waves, filtered by an output inductor.
     

  • 07-02-2007 8:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Dear All:

    So, what is the 'best' or 'better' placement of the BL 8000?  How far apart should they be from say BS 9000?  
    How far from wall?

    Dario

    When I hear music, I fear no danger. I see no foe... Thoreau
  • 07-02-2007 8:22 PM In reply to

    • Beolab
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    First rule of product promotion. To outmode your own products before competitors do. Beolab 8000 have bad noise level and compresses during full blown orchestra and that is during normal sane levels. The compression wasn't subtle, it was very obvious and was in the midrange. I know because I lived with a pair. Besides doing that upgrade will definitely lower production costs, not to mention shipping and a greener environment etc... 

    Hm... 

    Where the BL8000 upgraded with the latest update? (2004-) 

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 07-02-2007 11:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I had my 8000's serviced. They all talked about upgrading amplifiers, for improved base response. If I wanted true audiophile equipment, i would have purchased other brands. I love the sound and the look of BnO, so we're outfitting a 800meter penthouse with it. There is clearly nothing like it. As for improved base, we added 2 powered (500rms) subs of audiophile quality and actually back the bass down from flat a bit so even at high levels the pentas and 8000's never see any distortion.

    IMHO, no matter what you do to the amps of any speaker with limited internal volume and without tons of sound damping wood, it just is limited (especially in bass).

  • 07-03-2007 2:31 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    darioazul:
    Dear All:

    So, what is the 'best' or 'better' placement of the BL 8000?  How far apart should they be from say BS 9000?  
    How far from wall?

    Dario

    I would try and keep them about a foot and a half away from the wall if possible, and move them back if you find they lack in bass, rather than turning on the loudness. I find when you do this, they bass becomes confused and OTT with (particularly) the BeoLab 8000s. They should ideally be placed slightly less distance apart than the distance between you and the speakers themselves...

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  • 07-03-2007 4:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Peter:

    Actually I agree in a way with 355f! I suppose I would define the looks as more than just that - ergonomics would come into it - but the vast majority of B&O equipment can be outperformed by cheaper products from other manufacturers.

    Whether these products will last as long or be built from such good materials is another matter of course.

    I am quite happy to admit that the major reason I buy B&O is the splendid looks and user interface. I would not buy it if it didn't sound good as well but that is not the be all and end all for me.

    I know we can quote the Beolab 5 and indeed Beolab 5000 system or Beolab 8000 system as examples of good sounding equipment, but to be fair, these were not and are not the big sellers. In 1980, there were two similar receivers - the 2400/1900 and the 2200.  Apart from a few people like me, who remembers the 2200? But it blows the 1900 away from a performance point of view! Didn't sell that well in comparison though as it lacked the touch sensitive buttons and swoopier styling! I bought the 2400 for the very reasons I have given - and I bet I wasn't the only one!

    I absolutely agree with all these very wise words from Peter except I bought the Beomaster 1900 as my first piece of B&O (in 1979 I think) followed in 1986 by the Beocenter 9000.

    Regards Graham

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