in Search
Untitled Page

ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
READ ONLY FORUM

This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 07-04-2007 1:13 PM by wonderfulelectric. 50 replies.
Page 1 of 3 (51 items) 1 2 3 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • 06-21-2007 8:21 PM

    • Beolab
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-18-2007
    • Sweden
    • Posts 535
    • Bronze Member

    Beolab 8000 ICE-Power?

    I saw that the bl4000 has being upgraded with ice power so the question is when would the bl8000 be upgraded?

     And would the bl 8000 have som benefits in soundquality with ice power?

    Should i wait to buy bl8000 or what should u do in my situation?

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 06-22-2007 6:42 PM In reply to

    • Jez
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-13-2007
    • Posts 150
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I once worked with B&O about four years ago and at a yearly company forum we had a visitor from Denmark who told us that BeoLab 8000's would have a full upgrade including Ice Power. However later that year we where told that BL 8000's had a major upgrade but that IcePower wasn't needed. The sound comparisons between the two was very noticable but wouldn't Ice Power get rid of the heatsinks and allow more room inside and a grater litre volume for the drivers movement?
  • 06-23-2007 2:04 AM In reply to

    • ®
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-01-2007
    • UK
    • Posts 970
    • Founder

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I always thought ICE = In Car Entertainment 

  • 06-23-2007 8:18 PM In reply to

    • Jez
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-13-2007
    • Posts 150
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    No, It's called ICE Power because the amps run cool with no unused energy and therefore not requiring a big metal heat sink for dispencing heat. Creating a smaller amp with larger power. Perfect for BL8000 I would think.
  • 06-24-2007 4:47 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    britops:

    I always thought ICE = In Car Entertainment 

    Lol LaughingLaughing

  • 06-24-2007 8:35 AM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I thought ICE meant Intelligent, Compact and Efficient...

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-25-2007 4:18 AM In reply to

    • Jez
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-13-2007
    • Posts 150
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    I believe you're right Alex but it's a clever play on words for what it can do.
  • 06-25-2007 4:54 AM In reply to

    • Tom
    • Top 25 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Luxembourg
    • Posts 3,175
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    So back to the question: are the BL8000 about to get ICE-Power Amps or not, or do they even need them??

    Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. - Berthold Auerbach

  • 06-25-2007 6:03 AM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    tom:
    So back to the question: are the BL8000 about to get ICE-Power Amps or not, or do they even need them??
    No speakers actually 'need' them other than the BeoLab 5s and 3s and possibly the 2. The 8000s get along fine with Class A amplifiers. In fact, somebody I I trust hugely when it comes to opinions about B&O (an installer in the Bath store) told me that although they are very dependant on where you place them, and it is difficult to make them sound as good as they can be, BeoLab 8000s are better speakers than the BeoLab 3s when set up correctly in the right room. From what I've heard so far though, I personally prefer the BeoLab 3s.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-25-2007 8:45 AM In reply to

    • Tom
    • Top 25 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Luxembourg
    • Posts 3,175
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Off topic:

    Alex, just read your signature, which initially was meant for the new beoworld, but now, after you came back, it matches you too! Big Smile The only thing I don't know is what has been improved on you!! Laughing

    Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. - Berthold Auerbach

  • 06-25-2007 2:32 PM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    tom:

    Off topic:

    Alex, just read your signature, which initially was meant for the new beoworld, but now, after you came back, it matches you too! Big Smile The only thing I don't know is what has been improved on you!! Laughing

    I'm now ICE Powered. I was going to say something else but I think it's too rude! Sad

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-27-2007 2:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    The BL8000 will most probably be upgraded if it continues to remain in the lineup.
    The BL8000 was introduced more than ten yrs ago. The build-in amplifiers probably suffer from higher distortion of every kind and higher noise levels than most affordable amplifiers of today. Technological advances in the area of amplifiers are introduced very quickly which the same cannot be said for drive units. If icepower can perform above and beyond most of the amplifiers in the market today just imagine the leaps in sound quality. BL8000 will definitely benefit from this upgrade. 
    I think you should wait for the upgrade. B&O is probably waiting for the market response to recent upgrade for BL4000. They seem to be very cautious in making any moves although they are very bold in areas of product presentation. I speculate that the upgrade will be next yr.
    Icepower has become a tremendous asset to B&O, many firms are starting to adopt this technology. It is only the matter of time till everything goes Ice. 
    P.S I don't really care for the way they seem to skimp of the implementation of Icepower, just look at BL4000. They could have easily push two 100 watts modules without much increase in production costs in comparison to using a lower powered version. Their speakers uses heavy active equalisation, they can definitely benefit from more power. 
  • 06-28-2007 4:00 AM In reply to

    • Beolab
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-18-2007
    • Sweden
    • Posts 535
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    The BL8000 will most probably be upgraded if it continues to remain in the lineup.
    The BL8000 was introduced more than ten yrs ago. The build-in amplifiers probably suffer from higher distortion of every kind and higher noise levels than most affordable amplifiers of today. Technological advances in the area of amplifiers are introduced very quickly which the same cannot be said for drive units. If icepower can perform above and beyond most of the amplifiers in the market today just imagine the leaps in sound quality. BL8000 will definitely benefit from this upgrade. 
    I think you should wait for the upgrade. B&O is probably waiting for the market response to recent upgrade for BL4000. They seem to be very cautious in making any moves although they are very bold in areas of product presentation. I speculate that the upgrade will be next yr.
    Icepower has become a tremendous asset to B&O, many firms are starting to adopt this technology. It is only the matter of time till everything goes Ice. 
    P.S I don't really care for the way they seem to skimp of the implementation of Icepower, just look at BL4000. They could have easily push two 100 watts modules without much increase in production costs in comparison to using a lower powered version. Their speakers uses heavy active equalisation, they can definitely benefit from more power. 

     

    So you think it is a bad choice  to buy  BL8000:s this year then?

    What does everyone else think about this question?

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 06-28-2007 6:48 AM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Definitely not! BeoLab 4000s were still fantastic speakers right before they were upgraded, and so are BeoLab 8000s (if they are upgraded or not).

    You'll love them as they are Smile

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-28-2007 9:04 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Don't agree that everything will go ICE. There are disadvantages as well! Note the BL9s use Class AB amplifiers for the tweeter and midrange. AB amplifiers sound very good and are well tried technology. ICE, or Class D have also been around for a long time (think 1960s!) but it is only recently that they have been used for audio amplifiers successfully. They do have the big advantage of low heat production but from a sound point of view, I really don't see that a good Class D will outperform a good Class A or AB amplifier. It may well have the advantage of size and this makes its use in small speakers very helpful, and the efficiency lends itself to being used for bass reproduction where high power output is important.

    I think if the 8000s are updated that it will be for economic reasons.

  • 06-28-2007 1:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Note that BeoLab 8000 came out over then yrs ago. The amplification section in BL8000 wouldn't even be able to compete with a budget amplifier of today. The frequency response is bad, damping factor also bad, slew rate very bad, noise bad so upgrading it with Ice will definitely make a marked improvement. Digital amplifiers aren't good at high frequency because they start to roll off early and that is probably the reason why they use AB amplifiers in Beolab 9 but it is making progress in this region, with a bit of tuning I am sure it is not even a problem. Many high end digital amplifiers are commented on having a sound quality very close to tube amplifiers and that is probably because of low time distortion.  To sum up, a swap to Icepower for the amplification section of BL8000 will definitely be an improvement. 
  • 06-28-2007 1:57 PM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Rather than look at specifications and technology, I suggest you listen to the difference. If ICE Power BeoLab 8000s ever come out, I doubt you will see a remarkable difference between the older and newer versions, otherwise B&O would have upgraded them by now, or are in the process of doing so.

    Either way, when BeoLab 8000s are set up and placed correctly, they will outperform BeoLab 3s which are newer technology, and ICE Power based.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-28-2007 5:24 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    Note that BeoLab 8000 came out over then yrs ago. The amplification section in BL8000 wouldn't even be able to compete with a budget amplifier of today. The frequency response is bad, damping factor also bad, slew rate very bad, noise bad so upgrading it with Ice will definitely make a marked improvement. Digital amplifiers aren't good at high frequency because they start to roll off early and that is probably the reason why they use AB amplifiers in Beolab 9 but it is making progress in this region, with a bit of tuning I am sure it is not even a problem. Many high end digital amplifiers are commented on having a sound quality very close to tube amplifiers and that is probably because of low time distortion.  To sum up, a swap to Icepower for the amplification section of BL8000 will definitely be an improvement. 

    Lets be clear - ICE is Class D amplification which, as Peter says, has been around for Donkey's years. In Hifi circles it never made the grade because of distortion problems due to switching frequencies. In (relatively) recent years semiconductors can switch significant powers fast enough to make full spectrum HiFi audio amplifiers a possibility. Their overwhelming advantage is efficiency when compared to Class A or (more likely) Class AB amplifiers. Now they can also be made into world beating amplifier/speaker combinations such as BL5's. However each design/application must be taken on its own merits - there is no reason to assume any Class D amp is, by design, better than a similarly specified Class AB (although as said, it will be more efficient). By the same token there is no reason to assume the AB's in BL9's are there for any other reason than cost - if there was a sound (sic) audio quality reason then they would have surely been in the BL5's.

    The solid state versus tube argument will continue to rage (hopefully on sites much sadder than Beoworld) but belongs in the hifi press were those that debate the likes are welcome. In essence an amplifier should be colourless, what goes in should come out (but louder) - anything else is distortion (whether you think it sounds "warm" or "harsh"). Both amplifier topologies can be linear and can perform equally well - when overdriven then undoubtedly valves sounder "nicer" in a "less harsh" sort of way, nevertheless both are distorted.

    The amplifiers in the BL8000's aren't what you'd call state of the art, you'd find similar in many Japanese microsystems - what they are however, they're matched to the drivers and the cabinet and I believe that the BL8000's punch far above their weight in terms of performance versus specification. A shift of topology to Class D is not guaranteed to be an improvement - should they be fitted with a better amplifier? - who knows how much a better spec amp could improve the 8000'sConfused

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-28-2007 7:17 PM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    And ultimately I think the B&O engineers know more about this than us. If they felt the BeoLab 8000s needed changing to ICE Power, they either would have done it by now or will do so shortly.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-29-2007 12:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    If you haven't yet notice B&O isn't very responsive. They are a more of art house company or at least they used to market themselves as one. Anyways what I like about digital technology is that it is relatively affordable but can perform excellently and they are green. Imagine pure digital processing from the beginning to the end with only the coversion to analogue at the very end, which is something B&O is trying to do but not quite there yet. A lot of errors are still beng introduced in pure digital amplifers. With that technology mastered all degradation to signal integrity will be minimised and it is possible to get ruler flat frequency response, perfect time alignment and impulse response in your space.It is only the matter of time till all amplifiers or audio equipments go digital just like how the latest flat panels are replacing CRTs. The set of flaws and benefits of a digital amplifier is just more favourable than those of analogue. You have to invest a lot more in terms of material and power consumption in analogue amplifiers to get a better sound quality than a good PWM amplifer as of now already.
  • 06-29-2007 3:30 AM In reply to

    • Beolab
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-18-2007
    • Sweden
    • Posts 535
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    Note that BeoLab 8000 came out over then yrs ago. The amplification section in BL8000 wouldn't even be able to compete with a budget amplifier of today. The frequency response is bad, damping factor also bad, slew rate very bad, noise bad so upgrading it with Ice will definitely make a marked improvement. Digital amplifiers aren't good at high frequency because they start to roll off early and that is probably the reason why they use AB amplifiers in Beolab 9 but it is making progress in this region, with a bit of tuning I am sure it is not even a problem. Many high end digital amplifiers are commented on having a sound quality very close to tube amplifiers and that is probably because of low time distortion.  To sum up, a swap to Icepower for the amplification section of BL8000 will definitely be an improvement. 

     

    Do you got any link to that fact that the amplifier have bad: dampingfaktor, frequency response, slew rate and more and more bad things?

    Dont you think B&O would now all these bad things with the A/B amps in bl8000, and fixed it with the upgrade 2004? Ore do they just ignore it ? 

     I think that the BL9 got the AB amps in the mid and high, because its sound a little wormer than the BL5 does? More HiFi than studio sound. Don´t you think the A/B amps in BL9 is simular to the BL8000 amps? 

    So my conclusion is that the BL8000 just have the Mid and high woofers so they dosent need ICE-power for the lower frequencys?  

     

    Best regards Fredrik L.

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 06-29-2007 5:37 AM In reply to

    • Alex
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Bath & Cardiff, UK
    • Posts 2,990
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    That's what I'm wondering, how one measures the performance of the amplifiers without taking a BeoLab 8000 completely to bits.

    Either way, BeoLab 5s use ICE Power amps throughout, and they are some of the best speakers on the market. Even if B&O aren't very responsive, they have already updated the BeoLab 8000s and I have never seen any public outcry to upgrade the amplifiers in the BeoLab 8000s simply because it's not needed! They sound fantastic already, why fix something if it 'aint broke?

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-29-2007 8:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    First rule of product promotion. To outmode your own products before competitors do. Beolab 8000 have bad noise level and compresses during full blown orchestra and that is during normal sane levels. The compression wasn't subtle, it was very obvious and was in the midrange. I know because I lived with a pair. Besides doing that upgrade will definitely lower production costs, not to mention shipping and a greener environment etc... 
  • 06-29-2007 8:50 AM In reply to

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    Beolab:

    wonderfulelectric:
    Note that BeoLab 8000 came out over then yrs ago. The amplification section in BL8000 wouldn't even be able to compete with a budget amplifier of today. The frequency response is bad, damping factor also bad, slew rate very bad, noise bad so upgrading it with Ice will definitely make a marked improvement. Digital amplifiers aren't good at high frequency because they start to roll off early and that is probably the reason why they use AB amplifiers in Beolab 9 but it is making progress in this region, with a bit of tuning I am sure it is not even a problem. Many high end digital amplifiers are commented on having a sound quality very close to tube amplifiers and that is probably because of low time distortion.  To sum up, a swap to Icepower for the amplification section of BL8000 will definitely be an improvement. 

     

    Do you got any link to that fact that the amplifier have bad: dampingfaktor, frequency response, slew rate and more and more bad things?

    Dont you think B&O would now all these bad things with the A/B amps in bl8000, and fixed it with the upgrade 2004? Ore do they just ignore it ? 

     I think that the BL9 got the AB amps in the mid and high, because its sound a little wormer than the BL5 does? More HiFi than studio sound. Don´t you think the A/B amps in BL9 is simular to the BL8000 amps? 

    So my conclusion is that the BL8000 just have the Mid and high woofers so they dosent need ICE-power for the lower frequencys?  

     

    Best regards Fredrik L.



    Well maybe they have upgraded but I am not sure. Gosh I feel like I am being bombed here... lol.... 
    You see amplifiers from ten yrs ago have very high distortion and noise compared to current one because technology is not there yet. The simplest way to test whether BL8000s have bad amplifiers is to use a power conditioner, if the sound improves dramatically then we know they have a bad power supply and most likely have a bad power amplifier. The power supply in BL5 as you can tell from the exploded pic is fully regulated, just take a look at that humongous transformer so obviously a lot of care has been taken care in that area. BL9 may have used class A/B for mids and high because of costs consideration. You will have to put more work in making a digital amplifier sound great in those areas. Digital amplifiers can output high power with relatively low hikes in distortions unlike an analogue amplifier. There is nothing glorious about class A/B, for the price of Beolab 9, they should have used Class A or a sliding biased Class A amplifiers. Attention to detail is the key to luxury if they do not use a better amplifier for BL8000 just because of cost considerations and the lack of necessity then it must speak lots about their passion for better sound. A high-end sound system takes meticulous care of everything that effects the sound. Active loudspeaker may not require overengineered power amplifier but there will be a marked improvement with one. You see active loudspeakers with bad amplifiers and drivers will sound dramatically better than its non-active counterpart. B&O is smart to use active to produce best sound for cost production.  Sounds horrible. No? But it may be the best solution for the bad times B&O was in. Now things are changing with the BL9 and BL5 evidently. 
  • 06-29-2007 8:56 AM In reply to

    • 355f
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-19-2007
    • Posts 655
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Beolab 8000 IEC-Power?

    wonderfulelectric:
    The BL8000 will most probably be upgraded if it continues to remain in the lineup.
    The BL8000 was introduced more than ten yrs ago. The build-in amplifiers probably suffer from higher distortion of every kind and higher noise levels than most affordable amplifiers of today. Technological advances in the area of amplifiers are introduced very quickly which the same cannot be said for drive units. If icepower can perform above and beyond most of the amplifiers in the market today just imagine the leaps in sound quality. BL8000 will definitely benefit from this upgrade. 
    I think you should wait for the upgrade. B&O is probably waiting for the market response to recent upgrade for BL4000. They seem to be very cautious in making any moves although they are very bold in areas of product presentation. I speculate that the upgrade will be next yr.
    Icepower has become a tremendous asset to B&O, many firms are starting to adopt this technology. It is only the matter of time till everything goes Ice. 
    P.S I don't really care for the way they seem to skimp of the implementation of Icepower, just look at BL4000. They could have easily push two 100 watts modules without much increase in production costs in comparison to using a lower powered version. Their speakers uses heavy active equalisation, they can definitely benefit from more power. 

     

    Well firstly ICE power produces a somewhat cold sound, so it may not suit the character of speakers like the 8000. Actually the drive units are nothing special at all- maybe better investment in those could yield benefits.

     

    Now when it comes to power, power costs MONEY and B&O dont like doing that, why spend $30/30 more per unit for more power when the unit performs reasonably well anyway??  Digital technology is always assumed to be better- having worked in this busienss for some time, im afraid it means it can be made CHEAPER and yet sold at a HIGHER price!

     

    B&O should invest in better speakers. The other issue is - what are the limits of a 'lifestyle lightweight' with 3 or 4 " drivers?

Page 1 of 3 (51 items) 1 2 3 Next >