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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012 READ ONLY FORUM
This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and
1st March February 2012
Latest post 02-19-2010 12:57 PM by corey986. 28 replies.
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01-20-2010 1:50 AM
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Why have a pair of center speakers?
I noticed people commonly use a pair of BL4000 speakers for older setups, and was wondering what the disadvantace of doing this vs. using one BL4000 speaker. I have seen some BL4000s by themselves recently on ebay (e.g., not sold as a pair) so it is certainly not difficult to find just one. I have never seen anyone use a pair of other similar smaller speakers such as BL3s as the center, however, and was wondering why. I understand now that most are using the 7-series speakers but I was curious about the other.
Thanks!
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Dixon Langeman
- Joined on 11-17-2009
- Atlanta, GA
- Posts 26
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
In the old days, before B&O had a center speaker BL4000 were commonly used because they were the smallest speaker and could be mounted easily under a flat screen. They could also be placed close together to give the appearance of a single speaker. Also dealers were reluctant to break up a pair of speakers and sell just one. They were dasiy chained together and were sent the same signal from the center output of a Beosystem 1, or 2, or 3.
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
I've done a bit of reading since my post and it looks like there *may* be some issues with comb filtering, wave cancelling, etc. However, one article suggested it is not as big of a deal: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/572305.html
I had the opportunity to get a couple of BL3s at a great deal to compliment my 4 BL6000s and I think I'll experiment with placing one or two as a center and see what kind of difference it makes.
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Jez
- Joined on 06-13-2007
- Posts 150
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Although a pair of BeoLab's connected to the centre output daisy chained off the DTS module will play in mono as the centre it still has big advantages to using a pair.
First is matching the power output of the other speakers in the setup, a single BL4000 will not match the power output of most other BeoLab's and therefore be drowned out by the left / right front and rears.
Second is the dispersion of the centre sound, as an example, if you go to a cinema there is a sequence of centre channels all playing the mono centre so the people to the left and right get the same response in sound as the people in the centre.
If you are looking at a single speaker centre an acoustic lens speaker is a better option. 5 BeoLab 5's anyone!
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
So it sounds like it may be actually an advantage to use a pair of BL4000s or in my case BL3s for the center? I guess I'll soon find out when I get a chance to procur these and do some testing!
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Puncher
- Joined on 03-27-2007
- Nr. Durham, NE England.
- Posts 9,588
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
macjonny1:
So it sounds like it may be actually an advantage to use a pair of BL4000s or in my case BL3s for the center? I guess I'll soon find out when I get a chance to procur these and do some testing!
I would think a single Lab3 would suffice, because of the lens - I would definitely try it first before mounting a pair for the centre channel.
Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.
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Razlaw
- Joined on 04-24-2007
- Illinois
- Posts 1,770
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
I seem to remember being told that the Avant had basically 2 4000s built into it for the center channel, or stereo if no other speakers were connected.
Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s
Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s
Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000
Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms
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Jez
- Joined on 06-13-2007
- Posts 150
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
My setup at home is BL5's front left/right, BL 9's back left/right and a pair of BeoLab 3's as the centre. The reason for this is that my BV4 50" is on a cabinet and the table stand for the plasma is lower that the table stand for the BL7 centre, so I went with a pair of BL3's as the mono centre. The power output on a pair of BL3's is roughly the same as a BL7-2 but a single would just not cut it. Also there is no software option for BL3's as the centre so I have set it as BL7-2.
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
There is a dedicated surround and center powerlink socket
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Dave Moulton
- Joined on 05-12-2007
- Groton, MA, USA
- Posts 108
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Based on my experiments and study of surround sound, I would definitely argue against having two center speakers. The gain in power is only 3 dB, and the potential interference effects for the various listeners are substantial.
The center channel is a very special channel for cinema, and needs to be treated with care.
I hope this helps.
Best regards
Dave
Sausalito Audio LLC
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saf
- Joined on 04-17-2007
- Posts 458
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Dave Moulton: I would definitely argue against having two center speakers.
So, Dave, would one have to conclude from what you are saying that B&O didn't get it quite right with eg Avant, BV5, BV7 and also BV10 etc? Or perhaps more precisely, that their TVs with two speakers (and a surround sound module) were/are a compromise in order to make it on the one hand possible to reproduce stereo as a stand alone equipment, and on the other hand - indeed, not optimally - feature as a central speaker in a full surround sound setup as well?
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Dave Moulton
- Joined on 05-12-2007
- Groton, MA, USA
- Posts 108
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Good question!
I can only speak to experience with the Avant (I have one set up with 4 BL3s and a BL2, normal home theatre).
Answer: yes, I am troubled by interference effects of the stereo pair of the Avant. By "aiming" the Avant precisely, I can get the summation to be pretty good for ONE angle, but for other viewers off axis it deteriorates quite noticeably. You can audition this by setting the system to 1 speaker and then rotating the stand while auditioning. You will notice both the change in HF response and the comb filtering as the speakers rotate.
The Avant preceded the 5.1 world slightly, and was obviously designed as a stand-alone stereo system. This "center channel" summation is clearly a compromise (a wise one, in my opinion) to keep from rendering Avants obsolete.
5.1 is a very quirky and demanding format, and the center channel is particularly difficult, for a variety of reasons, including the sort of problem that the Avant presents.
Can I live with it? Obviously, yes. Can I enjoy movies and music over the system? Yes. Can I hear the problems? Yes.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
Dave
Sausalito Audio LLC
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Very interesting responses and not as uniform as I'd expect! The observations that led me to ask in the first place were: People using (and even shown on B&O literature) a pair of BL4000s as a center before the 7-series came out when they could very well have gotten rid of one and just mounted one BL4000.
Also, the fact that the newer 7.1, 7.2, and 7.6 are really stereo speakers that are commonly used in mono as a center. To me this is akin to using a pair of speakers in mono, although obviously the housing can make a difference.
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Puncher
- Joined on 03-27-2007
- Nr. Durham, NE England.
- Posts 9,588
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
I would think that for 5.1 listening a lens based speaker makes good sense because of their horizontal dispersion charateristic and therefore a 7.4 is a better option than the stereo "bar" 7's. If however you have the TV set up as a "stand alone" TV then the stereo 7.1, 7.2 or 7.6 makes more sense. Playing stereo audio through your stand alone TV would obviously also benefit from the latter types.
Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.
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saf
- Joined on 04-17-2007
- Posts 458
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Dave Moulton:
It does (I hope also to the original poster and others wondering) and as always is a pleasure to have you here, Dave.
I can only say that I have basically (rather unsurprisingly) the same experience with my BV5.
Good it has a motorised stand (and I can sometimes be alone with it ).
One can't really disagree with the rest of your post, I guess.
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Jez
- Joined on 06-13-2007
- Posts 150
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
I find it odd that B&O don't make a centre channel to suite a plasma on table stand. The table stand for BL7-2 would be great if it didn't sit higher than the cabinet stand for the BV4 and block the bottom of the screen.
Question: Currently I have BV4/BS3 with BL5's front, BL9's rear and a pair of BL3's centre (mono). Once I setup a dedicated theatre room in my next humble abode and wall mount my screen what centre would you go for? I was thinking BL9 (think you can purchase as a single). This would leave me with a pair of BL3's that I could set up 7.1 with. So my second question is, Is there an advantage to this as movies are encoded as 5.1 and there would only be one row of seating? Also would the BL3's be better as the side or back speakers?
Cheers
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Beobuddy
- Joined on 04-18-2007
- Posts 1,582
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
For the mentioned reason I'm already experimenting for the last 2-3 months.
I first ordered the BV9 speakers (and wooden box) and experimented with several amplifiers, but ended with the original BV9 ICE amplifier.
Unfortunatly I couldn't mount the mid/bass speaker a bit higher. This has to do with the inside (electronic) chassis.
When I upgrade to a BS3, I will have lots of space and will be able to place the mid/bass speaker in its original wooden case just beneath the tweeter.
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Dave Moulton
- Joined on 05-12-2007
- Groton, MA, USA
- Posts 108
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Whoa! What a cool setup you propose! A single BL9 for a center with BL5s Left and Right will work extremely well for both film and music! I'd put the BL3s as side speakers.
For 7.1, I'd buy a Lexicon processor with Logic 7, which is a really nice algorithm for deriving steering between side and rear from just the surround signal. The result is extremely effective for both film and music – I've auditioned it a fair amount, both in home theaters and cars, and like it a lot.
You are going to have one awesome home theater!
Best regards,
Dave
Sausalito Audio LLC
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
Dave,
Isn't there issues using active speakers on the rear surround channels with non-B&O receivers/pre-amps, namely that the rear speakers will turn off and on during quiet parts of movies/etc? Have you had any experience with the Lexicon and B&O active speakers?
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Dave Moulton
- Joined on 05-12-2007
- Groton, MA, USA
- Posts 108
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Re: Why have a pair of center speakers?
I've never used the Lexicon, so I can't speak to it. However, In my studio EVERYTHING except speakers is non-B&O. And yes, muting is an occasional nuisance on the BeoLab 3s being driven by a Yamaha mixing console. Fortunately, the lag is long enough that during almost all program material there is no muting, just when I stop playback for a discussion with a client.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
Dave
Sausalito Audio LLC
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