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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-19-2009 5:07 AM by Steve at Sounds Heavenly. 160 replies.
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  • 10-12-2009 3:46 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    • Joined on 08-21-2007
    • Spain
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    The individual who began this 'discussion', must be overjoyed at its consequences!

  • 10-12-2009 6:33 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    This is the last I will add on this thread as it also saddens me to see the same thing been brought up time and time again and for the record has personally really upset me to have added my voice to this now boring issue, I only ever mentioned something similar when I first opened our website mainly out of sheer excitement that I wanted to share and have since been nothing but light hearted and friendly on BeoWorld to keep with the fundamentals.

    I don’t think anyone could have done a better job transforming this site and am as most of its members eternally grateful for its invaluable existence and tireless efforts.

    To stop the issue been brought up again and again which I’m sure everyone would be in agreement with, would be to simply have an anonymous vote/poll so no-one feels swayed in anyway, surely this is giving everyone the same respect.

    Adding the simply but clear words ‘owned by’ to the advertising banner would be completely clear and above board in my opinion.

    As it stands, no matter how you look at the rules the ‘1 reseller rule’ is only clear if you already know, and that is just wrong.

    Yes, in the dealer section somewhere on the site acknowledging the existence of trustworthy competitors, not pushed in peoples’ faces would be respectful and helpful to all BeoWorld members but I respect this is your choice of course.

    There are people like myself that are willing to also financially support this site without being on every page or swaying any of its opinions, all clear and above board.

    I sincerely hope I haven’t caused any hard feeling, they are just my opinions and I thank-you for letting me express them.

    No matter what, I will continue to support this site as a founder member as I dearly love BeoWorld and would never wish to harm it.

    jason

  • 10-12-2009 9:45 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Jason, you seem to simplify matters.  Why do Beocentral only list Iconic-AV and Lifestyle-AV as resellers and have purposely removed morethanAV from their site when morethanAV used to pay for advertising on that site?  According to the Jarmans - 'because we know what is on our best interests' or words to that effect.  It is all a closed-shop, with people here thinking they are building a community site when there is an underlying commercial aim, sad but true.

    Stick your money into Adwords or similar Internet advertising in my view.  If you want an alternative perspective ask many who know the ins and outs of what is gonig no here, Steve James - the founder of Beoworld - has an interesting tale.

     

     

  • 10-12-2009 9:56 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    It's disappointing to be labelled as representing a small, unrepresentative and trouble making minority by the same individuals who then try to defend a site that is owned by one person, with a closed moderating structure, and which lacks the facility for members to instigate polls (as so many other fora do as par for the course). When you balance this out with the fact that some paying members feel that their fees are little more than for the pleasure of having access to manuals that are available elsewhere, or the slim chance of winning what are clearly very good prizes, as opposed to what they should be seen as - i.e. subs supporting the site/club/membership/management structure, then what we've wound up with is a very undemocratic and divisive structure that ends up pitting two camps against each other: those that are happy with the current structure and those that ask questions of it.

    I hope the denoument to this discussion is not that people walk away from the forum, either from frustration that their efforts are not being appreciated, or equally that their opinions are not respected. I for one have contributed in my own small ways in the past, and would like to continue doing so in the future, but it seems to me that the most venomous posts are directed towards the group that I would consider myself part of, whereas those of us who dare to criticise have been more even handed and less personal in our comments. Don't believe me? Then read Jason's circumspect comments in his recent postings, and you'll see someone grappling with their need to tell the story from their own perspective, balanced with a genuine respect for those he is challenging. I am sorry to say that this tone has not pervaded the entire discussion.

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 10-12-2009 9:57 AM In reply to

    • fridsten
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I'd say Beoworld isn't independant at all. It depends on several things.

    • First and foremost it depends on us, the members, who make the site what it is.
    • It depends on Bang & Olufsen, obviously, because without B&O there would be nothing to discuss.
    • It definately depends on Lee, a statement that needs no explanation.

    Beoworld is a great site with great people who are loyal to an excellent brand. This brand is constantly scrutinized by us and no detail is too small to look closely at and criticize. No product is safe from our verdict.

    I'm curious about the Beovision 10 myself, but I definately wouldn't want to jeopardize Bang & Olufsen's launch, since they have probably invested quite a bit of money in it, and I want them to continue providing us with amazing things.

    In my opinion it was quite in order to remove the picture. I also think Sven Peter should be banned for trying to pull something like this off.

  • 10-12-2009 10:00 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    KingOfSnake:

     It is all a closed-shop, with people here thinking they are building a community site when there is an underlying commercial aim, sad but true.

    I'm not going to claim one or the other regarding this site, because I simply don't know (yet). But it is possible to have a commercial site that is also a community, even if the different things sometimes clash.

    The adobe Audition forums (or one of the many other adobe forums) are in my opinion working great. At least on the audio forums over there. People helping each other, the programmers chiming in once in a while and so on. Of course, they're not as active as some forums out there, but nonetheless they're there.

    On the other hand, Apple's "discussion" fora is a joke and there is no sense of community there at all. That one is truly a corporate forum with all the ills that entails.

     

    Edit: Someone above me mentioned something along the lines of "we're all loyal". I, for one, am not loyal to any brand. Yes, I do like certain brands more than others, historically speaking, but I'm only as brand loyal as I like Primus (music, band). I do like them more than most bands out there, but I listen to whatever suits my needs and wants. Just like I do when I'm about to purchase a product. I like (some) Leicas, for what they are (superb rangefinders in the case of the M-series), but I wouldn't be using a Leica if I were a sports photographer.

    I'm just saying that with brand loyalty comes apologism and the notion that noone should ask any questions but merely take whatever is served (and thus the relevance to this thread). That, to me, is not the way forward, but rather akin to apathy.

     

  • 10-12-2009 10:03 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Changed my mind and removed post!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 10-12-2009 10:25 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    j0hnbarker:

    It's disappointing to be labelled as representing a small, unrepresentative and trouble making minority by the same individuals who then try to defend a site that is owned by one person, with a closed moderating structure, and which lacks the facility for members to instigate polls (as so many other fora do as par for the course).

     

    John

    Nobody is accusing you of trouble-making.  I have made that accusation at the originator of the thread because I honestly do not believe the image of the Beovision 10 was posted in order to allow members of this forum an early  look at it. I belive it was posted to cause trouble, and sadly he has succeeded in that aim.

    I also find it ironic that the original poster is still  not prepared to stand up and be counted as the poster of the image (Hence the false name) while being primed and ready to criticise Lee and others  for the fact that Beoworld do not wish to openly host it. A debate around wider  forum issues then becomes difficult when the OP so clearly has an agenda, and you have been caught in the crossfire.

     

    Simon

     

  • 10-12-2009 11:12 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    The poll facility was removed by request of a large number of members as we reached a stage where the first page of the general forum was nothing but polls. We replaced this with a weekly poll which rapidly became unused so it died a death. I for one have no strong feelings about polls as such - they are useful for market research.

    As far as a closed moderating system is concerned, moderators have always been chosen by the rest of the team - with the exception of me, as I was appointed by Steve at the beginning of the site. Vacancies do arise - we actually have one at present - and people are chosen for their ability to manage difficult situations in a fair way and their knowledge of the brand.

    Please remember that this site is not and does not purport to be a democracy. To be fair, none of the good sites I frequent are. My other major interests include fountain pens and the excellent FPN site states exactly the same. There are other B&O forums - Beolist springs to mind, but they have never had the same purpose as this site which is to try to answer queries in a timely fashion and as accurately as possible. I am a member of the Beolist though and find it's owner to be a friendly and helpful chap. It is particularly useful for members in North America as the majority of its list is based there.

    The comment about Beocentral would seem completely unwarranted as this is a completely non commercial site with no paying sponsors. Any decision about whom to link to will be a personal decision by the Jarman's, for whom I have the utmost respect. I regard Tim and Nick as personal friends but there is no cosy club deciding who should be admitted to the fold! They only listed Beoworld relatively recently and it was their decision and not due to begging on our part!

     

  • 10-12-2009 11:21 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Copenhagen / Denmark
    • Posts 5,008
    • Founder

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    These accusations about the moderating team having a secret agenda
    couldn't be farther from the truth.
    Some of them even come from members that I've respected and dealt with previously.
    I'm baffled !
    If some members choose to believe something that they will never be able to prove, simply
    because it doesn't exist, so be it, wars have been started by less, but it does raise the question
    why they are still staying here.

    Anyway, I understand how Peter feels and I will consider my future stay here myself.
    I can live with many things but standing target for defamation is too much for me.

    We will never hear the end of this discussion and even if we should ever
    reach there, a new will start, anonymous like this.
    Let that hit-and-run troll win, I give up and congratulate him.
    The OP finally got what he tried to achieve through several years.
    Namely revenge for his long-time banning for troll'ing and threatening ...
    Have fun with him.

    Martin

  • 10-12-2009 11:43 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Martin

    I think you're refering to my posting, and you have taken what I said out of context. My use of the term 'closed moderating structure' does not mean that I believe that there is a secret agenda. How could it? It is an observation drawn from fact. Peter mentions that there's a vacancy at the moment. Did anyone else know about this? Probably not. Case in point. Moderators are appointed by those in charge. That's all. For what it's worth I do not see this as being a secret agenda, more that when a new moderator is needed one emerges, rather than anyone having a say in the appointment. Is this such a harsh criticism? I truly believe it is not, and it is not a slight on those people on the mod team either, many of which I have good dealings with and count as internet friends.

    I have tried to use measured and fair language in posting, but all that seems to happen is that the slightest comment is taken out of context and people get upset. That is not my intention, but nor will I circumscribe my language to such an extent that anything I post does not effectively communicate how I feel about a particular subject. Why should I, after all, as I feel I am a fair-minded good communicator who takes the time to think about what I write.

    To me this is not about the OP. I think I know who it is, and he is not someone I have ever communicated with. From what I know he upset and continues to upset a lot of people, and having been let in on the reasons why, all I can say is that it is not a personal battle that I want to be involved in. My posts here reflect my true feelings, but as those feelings are either incompatible with further involvement with the site, or serve to upset so many people who really should know me better, then I shall take my leave from this discussion forthwith.

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 10-12-2009 11:45 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Martin,

    I somewhat understand your feelings. I too hate being accused of something that just isn't true and that one has no way of disproving, simply because someone chooses to attack one.

    However, and I'm fully aware that I'm new on this site, and therefore my opinion doesn't weigh as much as others who by being here have earned respect and so on, but I do feel I need to say that you shouldn't take this so personal. I have reread this thread, and I simply cannot see that many personal attacks towards anyone in particular. I, however, see a lot attacking "the" people who asks the questions, only to be "backed up" by some sort playing the victim card. I'm not saying that you're playing that card, because I really think you feel personally offended by this thread and/or the people in this thread.

    It's obvious I have little say in these matters, but on the other hand, threads like these will exist on just about any forum out there, unless of course they're censored.

    In the same way that people here talk about dissidents (how's that for a 1984 reference?), it's natural that some people from time to time will be unhappy with something. That doesn't mean they should march right out of the site. It just means they're unsatisfied with something (be it real or imagined), it should not automatically mean they don't want to be here, nor should it mean that they wish you weren't here either.

    A forum like this, like many others, is not simply a question of "take it or leave it". It's a work in progress, so it should have room for the mentioned "dissidents" as well as room for the people who operates this place. It doesn't mean that the dissidents should get the ef out, nor that you and the rest of the team should quit.

    I sincerely hope my posts haven't emphasised that feeling in you, because that has not been my intent at all.

     

  • 10-12-2009 11:48 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    KingOfSnake:

    If you want an alternative perspective ask many who know the ins and outs of what is gonig no here, Steve James - the founder of Beoworld - has an interesting tale.

     

    As indeed do a number of us , though I doubt it would be quite the same. I regard Steve as friend of mine but the site is much more stable and run in a much less autocratic fashion now. Steve writes  a superb site - in many ways I prefer the PHP site than the reference we have now. However I am sure he would be the first to tell you that he was not that active on the forum himslef, leaving that to myself and Ignace.

    The increased relationship with B&O is a huge advantage that we now have and this is despite the site being owned by a pre-owned dealer rather than because. Our success is largely due to Lee being an extremely personable and persuasive individual who can charm the birds from the trees. I am also honoured to call him my friend.

    We cannot make this forum exactly what every single person wants it to be. We have ideals that we like to think we can stick to - we make sure that as many posts as possible are answered on the same day. We try to keep as many manuals as we can available to download and we attempt to make the forum a cheerful and happy place. We do not choose our members - they choose us. Clearly dealing with a wide range of nationalities and ages can lead to misunderstandings but on the whole, the vast majority of members are polite and patient and very little in the way of moderating is needed. I think I have to write to about 2 or 3 people a year. I can assure you that fewer people have been removed from the forum since Lee was in charge than was the case before though neither have been any numbers at all. Some of this is down to our spam filters admittedly but it is also down to the sense shown by the rest of the moderating team.

  • 10-12-2009 2:22 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I will be so glad when this thread is closed/locked/deleted.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 10-12-2009 2:40 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I agree 100% with you Andy.

    There is also positive point, we know what not to do the next time Mr troll decides to post that kind of thread.

    As the more we react, the more he wins....

    So less is more (on our side) with that kind of person...

    Cheers,

    Guy

    --= "Everything gets done with Patience" =-- --= "Less is More" - Mies Van der Rohe"

    --= BV10 46", BL8K, BL4K, BL2, BS Ouverture, BC6000 (Mk3), BT1100, Beo4 , A8 and ...the Atomic Floyd "Airjax+Mic" earphones =--

  • 10-12-2009 2:51 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I don't know with regards to the last two posts. During the course of this thread I feel like I have gotten to know everyone a wee bit better.

    In my book, that's not too shabby. Unsure

     

  • 10-12-2009 3:03 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    KingOfSnake:

     If you want an alternative perspective ask many who know the ins and outs of what is gonig no here, Steve James - the founder of Beoworld - has an interesting tale.

     

    I believe that I am unique on the forum in that I have been on both sides of this discussion and I'm still an active member.

    I was for some time one of the Beoworld Technical Advisers and had the same moderating priviledges as any of the other moderators.

    I can assure everybody that there are definitely no agendas, hidden or otherwise, other than to ensure that ALL the members enjoy their participation in the forum.

    No pressure is ever bought to bear on any moderator to vote in any way whatsoever. There exists a democracy, but in my time as a moderator, Lee never decided to do other than the majority view.

    I don't recall any posts being deleted other than for links that were blatant advertising or the odd profanity and the OP was always emailed with an explanatary note.

    One member was banned and his posts removed from the forum. All trace of him was removed from the site. He was a problem, my guess is that he continues to be a problem to this day!

     

    Regards Graham

  • 10-12-2009 3:04 PM In reply to

    • Medogsfat
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Iconic-AV:

    This is the last I will add on this thread as it also saddens me to see the same thing been brought up time and time again and for the record has personally really upset me to have added my voice to this now boring issue, I only ever mentioned something similar when I first opened our website mainly out of sheer excitement that I wanted to share and have since been nothing but light hearted and friendly on BeoWorld to keep with the fundamentals.

    I don’t think anyone could have done a better job transforming this site and am as most of its members eternally grateful for its invaluable existence and tireless efforts.

    To stop the issue been brought up again and again which I’m sure everyone would be in agreement with, would be to simply have an anonymous vote/poll so no-one feels swayed in anyway, surely this is giving everyone the same respect.

    Adding the simply but clear words ‘owned by’ to the advertising banner would be completely clear and above board in my opinion.

    As it stands, no matter how you look at the rules the ‘1 reseller rule’ is only clear if you already know, and that is just wrong.

    Yes, in the dealer section somewhere on the site acknowledging the existence of trustworthy competitors, not pushed in peoples’ faces would be respectful and helpful to all BeoWorld members but I respect this is your choice of course.

    There are people like myself that are willing to also financially support this site without being on every page or swaying any of its opinions, all clear and above board.

    I sincerely hope I haven’t caused any hard feeling, they are just my opinions and I thank-you for letting me express them.

    No matter what, I will continue to support this site as a founder member as I dearly love BeoWorld and would never wish to harm it.

     

    Just for the record Jason,

                                            your post on this issue I find very well balanced and valid to a certain extent. I have known you through this site for a fair few years and have nothing but total respect for both you as an individual, and your opinions. You note I mentioned the validity of your post "to a certain extent". By this I mean that you started as a serious trader well after Lee took control of Beoworld (please correct me if I am wrong) and feel it is a little harsh to criticise that he is the only pre-owned trader allowed to advertise. At the end of the day it was HE who took a huge financial gamble to bankroll the buy out so I feel it only fair that he should reap the benefit. I have read points raised about other dealers (similar to Lee's position) not being allowed to do this but the truth is that Lee was - and still is - the best man for the job and I shudder to think exactly how "independant" Beoworld would be in the hands of  any one of these traders.

    No offence taken from your post and likewise none is intended to you.

    Chris.

    The use of metaphors should be avoided like the plague. They're like a red rag to a bull to me.

  • 10-12-2009 3:14 PM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Moderator - UK
    • Posts 5,223
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    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Well i've kept my distance, allowed discussion to flow, let people air grievances, let people reply to those grievances - and now i feel it's time to answer some questions directly, exactly as requested.

    Firstly, let's finally wrap up the 'OP debate'. This persons post alerts all now bounce back to me as this person has successfully done a fabulously successful 'hit and run' and closed his email account. Ah well - as you say, i'ts raised questions that have obviously been bothering some people - so in all the bad, we have some good!  Let's call it 'Troll 1 - BeoWorld 1' and move on with a smile and a deep breath.

    Firstly, let's look at the question of B&O putting pressure on me to remove the image..

    I can categorically state that Bang & Olufsen did not ask/order me to remove the image, nor did they put any pressure on me to do so.  I received a phone call simply asking me to look at the image, then discuss it with the OP as to wether he/she would be offended if it was removed as it could spoil the launch of a product that's promised to be the saviour of many a B&O dealership. God knows, many are on the ropes and truly need this launch to work - as do B&O as a company.  At no point was there any mention of being sued over copyright issues, and nor did i expect there to be - we get on well enough with B&O now to be able to talk things through rather than have their legal team coming down on us.  That said, with a companies near future depending on it - i wouldn't hold it against them if they did.

    So, i made the decision to delete the image until i could dig out the details of the poster and contact him/her to ask if he/she would be greatly offended if it was removed in the best interests of B&O as a company.  We have done this before, with some being left alone or reinstated and some being removed. Every case has it's own merits and demerits, but at the end of the day i saw the user had some 'made-up' personal details and therefore no communcation could be made.  So, it remained deleted.  My decision, made instantly and in my mind certainly in the best interests of a company i support whole-heartedly and also that of BeoWorld.

    That said, i am sure that if BeoWorld decided to reinstate the image after discussions with both B&O, the moderating team and of course the OP - Bang & Olufsen would have accepted it, and although they wouldn't have been too happy - they would have bitten their tongue. They have done on other occasions, so please don't think they are a giant looking down at us ready to step on us - they are very realistic and accept the internet isn't watertight. The most recent being the BeoCom 5 image, which they actually slapped their foreheads over for being so slack as to put it in the background of a different product. We also posted sketches/diagrams of it. Oh, remember the Serenata 'type approval' drawing? There are plenty of others, and then some they have just shrugged their shoulders at.

    Now for the latest burning topic..

    On to BeoWorld being 'Independent'.  What are we independent of, and what does that mean exactly?  Well, from the standpoint 'are we independent of Bang & Olufsen' - then yes, we are of course. So much so we were asked to withdraw a mailshot where we wrote B&O were 'official sponsors' of BeoWorld.  I can tell you now that B&O do not want any more involvement than they have already, and this was made abundantly clear to me during that communique.  B&O see the independence from B&O as absolutely necessary, as do we all here.  They do not want to take us over, or to change things - but simply want to work together rather than against us.  This involves give and take on both sides, and as many of you have pointed out you are all enjoying the benefits of a civil relationship with B&O.  As one member points out, Steve James - the former owner of BeoWorld has some stories to tell... Yes, he does - and so do i, but i've always done the honourable thing and backed out of these debates.  B&O dropped this site like a hot brick for a reason, that's my final comment on that - so let's move on to another viewpoint.

    Another facet of the 'Independent' question is of course sponsorship.  Now, this is a real political one as i'm very much damned if i do and damned if i don't.  As Peter has mentioned, this site was in a real financial mess when i stepped in and paid what was really a huge amount for a site that had no accounts, missing funds, a server which was permanently crashing (as it was overloaded at certain times due to other sites hosted on it) and an acrimonious relationship with the site whose products it supported.  I came in, having already been a sponsor of the site, and could have simply carried on as it was  - simply increasing the exposure my company had on the site.  However, i decided to take a loan out against my house and develop the site into what it is today with the help of Firebrand, Peter and the mod team. I had a clear vision of where i wanted it to go, and have always wanted the very best for this place. Does anyone remember that i was actually a BeoWorld moderator on the old site when i was simply a B&O fan with no 'agenda' at all ?

    At the time i gave Steve James a five figure sum, which was happily accepted, i thought BeoWorld would have a flood of new members and the loans i had taken out would be paid off in record time. I was convinced we'd be giving BeoVision 7's away within the first year and having a ball.  I gave a BeoSound 4, BeoSound 1 and a number of very high value prizes away to start with - admittedly against the advice of a lot of people on here, and thought i'd be fine.  However, to say my projections fell flat on their face would be to give a fair assessment.

    I rapidly found myself looking at taking on board advertising from elsewhere, whilst also being acutely aware of the current members enjoyment of BeoWorld being relatively 'advert-free'.  Once again, i was between a rock and a hard place but chose not to go for the adverts - i would keep putting money and prizes in via LifeStyle AV 'donations' and leave it as is. Of course, we had an ongoing spat for a while with morethanav, resellers of Bang & Olufsen products - who questioned the sites 'Independency', but i maintained we were independent of B&O as a company - and that was what really mattered. Financially, BeoWorld was dependent on me, the loan repayments, and the house my family live in if it all went wrong. 

    So, the double-edged sword was held over me and put me in a very awkward position.  I wanted to keep the forum as uncluttered with adverts as possible (as the members strongly insisted), and yes - of course, i'd be a complete liar if i said i didn't want to solely advertise my company on my website at the end of the day.  To my surprise, Morethanav actually came good on his threats and started to build 'Beoplanet' - a site that he promised everyone could advertise on (i'd have been intrigued at my response to a request!), but he then decided it was going to be far more time consuming than he had anticipated. Fair play to the chap, he dropped it and has gone about his business with no hindrance to BeoWorld at all - and he has earnt my respect on that count.

    So, here we are now - with a fair question that 'why can't everyone advertise'?  Well, i'm open to any suggestion - but if i open the floodgates for one, i will open the floodgates for all - i cannot and will not make exceptions to that rule.  BeoWorld has a huge readership now, and has caught the eye of some 'big boys' in the online advertising world.  I have been approached by mobile phone companies, party-gaming sites (yes, that's online poker etc), and computing companies to name a few. We rank very well in Google when a luxury brand name is searched - which is something they are currently looking for. The 'man in the street' is tightening his purse strings - so the natural target is the person not as effected by a recession - users and buyers of luxury goods.

    I could, within a couple of months, have pop-ups, flashing '888.com - win big at roulette and poker' type adverts, the carphone warehouse bouncing their latest mobile phone around in a box all over your screen, computer store banners zipping the latest HP notebook down the side - you name it.  I could make a fat load of cash out of this site by throwing open the advertising doors.  If that's what we all want, then hey - i'm up for it. I could spend half of it on the 'Google adwords campaign to end all campaigns' for LifeStyle AV, and spend the other half on sports cars and nice holidays for myself and my family.

    I'm happy to have a poll, and i'd be happy to make the extra money - but be assured, the site would never be the same. I'm almost certain Peter would walk, i would take a back seat and happily count my cash and the other moderators would eventually lose interest..  On the plus side, we could all see that there was more than one reseller of used B&O, assuming we've never heard of Google. Happy days.

    As for Beocentral, and the 'closed shop' incinuation - that's pretty amusing.  Tim and Nick Jarman are actually real people with minds of their own and would have no hesitation in telling me to get lost if i upset them.  I rarely speak to them if i'm honest, but on the occasion i do they are polite and helpful.  I like to think they see BeoWorld as an 'equal but totally different', but we all know their reviews are much better! I do know morethanav advertised on there, but stopped suddenly - that's all i know.  I have not spoken to Beocentral about it as it's frankly none of my business.  If Nick and Tim have put free links to 'the other two' on there, then hey - thank you guys, but i never asked.

    If anyone would like anything made clear in the forum rules, lets talk about it. As ever, many issues are as clear as mud and open to a huge number if interpretations - but if we can work to a definitive set of rules, then great. Nobody will read them first though i'm sure, then when the rule is contravened it will be requested it's re-written.  Still, progress and all that.

    You are the members, and without you the site would be a lifeless place.  I can see too from the sentiments on here that the moderating team is appreciated, and that i do find heartwarming.  Those guys do a heck of a lot to keep this site flowing, and where we are now is largely down to their input and the input of a core of incredibly helpful and positive members who are always ready to help.  Hats off to you all.

    I do try my best to keep this site fun, entertaining and a place where people can air their views.  I don't try and rule with an iron fist, and with the guidance and support of the moderating team i think we do a great job of letting free speech happen.  Personally, i am trying to build a relationship with Bang & Olufsen where a BeoWorld member is spoken to with respect not disgust when visiting his or her local dealer, where the company values our input and (one day) may even acknowledge they have acted on it, and to give something back to the members in the form of some great prizes that they may not necessarily been able to budget for or be able to buy on the open market. I also support Bang & Olufsen, and the last thing i would ever want to see is the company fail.  I've been to Quistrup, where it all started,  and i don't want to see the place where it all ended - ever.. and i'm sure none of you guys do either.

    I've taken a long time to write this, and i'm going to sign off until tomorrow - it's been a long day. Thank you for listening.

    Kind Regards

    Lee

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 10-12-2009 3:20 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Well, in that case to be ready for the future, I suppose there should somewhere be a list of topics that are not allowed to be discussed. So that newbies would know as well.

    I still fail to see where the trouble in this thread is. To me, it seemed like discussion on the underlying principles and facts behind the way Beoworld operates (and a pretty civilized discussion compared to most forums on the net). Can you explain to me how the OP "wins" if we discuss these things? If there is some lossage in this thread, I believe it has been completely self constructed...

    To make it clear, I personally have absolutely no problem with any of these things, like how the moderating team works, or how the advertisers are selected. I also appreciate the hard work done behind the scenes, as well as Lee making all this possible in the beginning, and those who pay to keep it continuously possible. But I would also like to stress that without the ordinary members that post on the forums and create all the live content, Beoworld would be just another Internet collection of static documents concentrating on a narrow subject, instead of this wonderful forum that I love, and a powerful advertising platform for a few select companies. And that's fine with me - I just wish it could be openly discussed and even challenged from time to time if need be. Won't the members deserve that?

    Edit: I started writing this before Lee posted his long comment above - which seems to contain all the answers Smile

    -mika

  • 10-12-2009 3:25 PM In reply to

    • BenSA
    • Top 75 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Durban, South Africa
    • Posts 808
    • Gold Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    The site is owned by Lee and he has the right to do with it what he wants. I think the positives far out weigh the negatives, nothing in life is ever perfect. I'm sure that everyone can agree that Lee is a good and generous person and that goes for Peter too!!

    I do think that the photo should have been left on the site, we have had peeks of other products before they have been offically launched. I don't think it was right of B&O to point out to Lee that the photo was on the site, it should have nothing to do with them. At the end of the day I feel Beoworld does a whole lot more for the B&O brand then B&O does for Beoworld and they should remember that. I think a sneak peek would have caused a lot of excitement.

    Having said that, its not the end of the world. Lee and the moderators are only human and have the uneviable task of making these decisions and sometimes we might not agree but thats what being part of a community is all about. Different people with different opinions!

    Durban South Africa

  • 10-12-2009 3:30 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Sheesh, Lee, that was an even longer post than I'd be able to write. And I like to write :)

    Excellent post, that one. That post ought to address most of the concerns (again, real or imagined) posted here.

    This tidbit had me laughing out loud, though:

    9 LEE:
    . The most recent being the BeoCom 5 image, which they actually slapped their foreheads over for being so slack as to put it in the background of a different product

    Big Smile

     

     

  • 10-12-2009 5:09 PM In reply to

    • Calvin
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • London
    • Posts 233
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I think that the major problem (unfortunately a good one) is that the site now has such a large number of people viewing it that it inevitably requires a commercial slant to it.  Hosting isn't free, this sis the same of any site.  In this instance, one main form of revenue is advertising and to be honest, given the amount of work and effort (and money) Lee has put into it, he's welcome to advertise lifestyle as much as he feels is necessary unless anyone is willing to stump up the cash.  Certainly, as has been said, B&O themselves are hesitant to be seen to sponsor a separate fan-site. Similarly, given the number of posts Peter has (7611 currently) I think that the pretty much unrivaled dedication to the site he's given should rightfully give him a larger say than many of us as to how the place is run.

    Much as I don't really post too often, I do visit the forum every few days and have done for about 5-6 years, dating back to the "old-old" site. In that time, I can't really fault the management and to be honest, I don't think it's any more commercial than it used to be.  Yes there are people that are secret dealers and promoting an agenda but yes there are others with criticisms and we do get proper debates going, that's what it's all about.  If all we got was a string of praise then we wouldn't keep visiting, same if it was just complaints, and surely this current debate (6 pages) is enough to show that opinions are welcomed by the community and the management, whether agreed with or otherwise.

    Overall, I get the impression that the moderating seems to be legitimate and reasonable. I'm really glad that we don't see swearing or adverts everywhere yet we still get debate - that's actually really saying such a lot for a website these days - and I welcome it immensely.  At the end of the day, unless someone wants to stump up a bucket of money and time to running something better (offers?) then we should really just respect the work that's done and say thanks for the collective effort.

  • 10-12-2009 5:28 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Thanks again Lee for all you're doing for the site, and even if I have voiced certain differences, I fully appreciate your efforts.

    Well targeted advertising can be valuable information for the reader.

    It could tell me where to find cheap B&O stuff, cables, non B&O devices that are Beo4 compatible, IR converters, software, Beoliving installers, etc... which is the information I am likely to be looking for when I am coming to this site anyway.

    Advertising does not have to be intrusive. The top banner could be a rotating banner, changing every time you load a page (you are lucky that this is a site where you are likely to stay and read several pages). It can be location dependent and an australian reseller advert could appear only to australian readers - making it more relevant.

    A larger number of sponsors/advertiser is also making Beoworld less (financially) dependant on any of them. 

    I would welcome more B&O related advertisers, and would have no problem with other type of advertisement for products for which we would be perceived as relevant target (hotels, travel, electronic products, lifestyle magazines...), as long as they are not more intrusive that the current banners.

     

  • 10-12-2009 6:06 PM In reply to

    • Ian
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • UK
    • Posts 132
    • Founder

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    The 'sponsors' of Beoword are: LifestyleAV, Struer Design, Sounds Heavenly and STB Brackets. Obviously we know that Lifestyle AV is owned/run by Lee Marriott, Struer Design is owned by John Marriott, and Sounds Heavenly is owned by Steve Marriott.

    It looks less likely that 'only 1 business per genre can advertise', but more like that you need to be a member of the Marriott family to be allowed into the party. I also understand that whilst STB are not part of the Marriott family they are very close friends of Lee and not simply business partners.

    How common is this knowledge on Beoword?   

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