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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-19-2009 5:07 AM by Steve at Sounds Heavenly. 160 replies.
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  • 10-10-2009 11:47 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independant is Beoworld?

    j0hnbarker:
    Electrified - sorry if anything was lost in translation, but I wasn't accusing you of being here before under another user name. As you had taken a particular interest in this subject I thought it worth mentioning that we have been here before several times, and that you might not have been aware of this. If this annoyed you, then that wasn't my intention....

     

    Oh, like that. Sorry then Whistle

    I have always liked debates like these, no matter the forum. It's a way of sharpening up, mentally. In any case, in hindsight, I propably should have been here longer to feel you guys out before plummeting myself into this debate. I still mean what I say, though, I might just have said the things a little differently, and I might not have misunderstood you if I had been here longer. I put it down to the translation, then. Wink

     

     

  • 10-10-2009 12:00 PM In reply to

    Re: How independant is Beoworld?

    The Plumber:

    John, Chill out man. Perhaps i could recommend a sit down whilst listening to Ian Browns new album My Way. Smile

    Ok Mark ;)

    Perhaps all 99 tracks of The Second Coming might be more appropriate :)

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 10-10-2009 12:36 PM In reply to

    • Medogsfat
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 02-21-2007
    • *Moderator* Leeds, Yorkshire
    • Posts 4,045
    • Founder

    Re: How independant is Beoworld?

    Puncher:

    Does anyone else think this whole episode is getting out of hand!

    It's not a matter of national security, it's a picture posted, on a AV manufacturers fansite, by someone suspected of doing so purely out of devilment and to provoke some response (I bet he can't believe his luck with the way this thread has developed).

    Amen to that!

     

    Chris.

    The use of metaphors should be avoided like the plague. They're like a red rag to a bull to me.

  • 10-10-2009 12:48 PM In reply to

    Re: How independant is Beoworld?

    Puncher:

    Does anyone else think this whole episode is getting out of hand!

    Yes.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 10-10-2009 1:09 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Electrified:

     

     

    vikinger:

    I hesitate to extend this debate as the issues concerning copyright are quite clear despite the convoluted arguments and complications raised in this discussion.

    I don't know where you get the idea that copyright law is simple. It's not. Especially when we talk of intellectual property and the (sometimes) clashing with the laws governing the media in the various countries. Often copyright takes a backseat to "the common good", but this too depend on how much is revealed. Copyright law is a huge number of variations of grey, not black and white. And this isn't even considering that if one ignores the publication of one's copyrighted materials by someone else, one often - but not all the time (again depending), forfeits any claims to the material, seeing as one should have made a point of it to begin with.

    [Deep breath]

    What I'm saying is that copyright law is very difficult, especially when we consider that there are different laws in different countries, and when you couple this with the differing laws governing the media, then it's not exactly black and white as you suggest.

     

    I agree that copyright law is complex, but it's also very simple if you are the owner of the website. If you have any doubts about origin or there's an obvious infringement... delete it/ don't use it unless you know it's OK with the copyright holder. An owner can't afford to wait to see if someone complains...... especially in the case in point where he knows the likely origin of the picture and the possible outcome of doing nothing.

    Most of those complaining in this thread carry no personal risk concerning the consequences of Lee leaving the picture on line.

    Just live with the decision! Yes -  thumbs up

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 10-10-2009 2:06 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Vikinger (plural?? Wink),

    I haven't argued in favour of keeping it. Nor in favour of deleting anything that "might" be a copyrighted picture. Even in such circumstances, it's not as clear cut as you think. It has to be done on a per-item basis, because Beoworld is a media in the legal sense, so it has some rights, but of course also a responsibility. It's not as simple as deleting anything that is copyrighted. The thing is, I can post some copyrighted material here, be it text or an image or whatever, and depending on the context it will either be all right, or it will be copyright infringement. It's not as simple as "If someone holds the copyright to a picture or text, ANY copy of that picture or even some of the text will be infringement". It solely depends on context. For instance, I can post excerpts of a book in a review, using the copyrighted as a basis for discussion. However, If I copy the entire text, it would constitute copyright infringement in most of the western world. What's in between are the grey zone.

    Besides the law, even B&O operates with some unspoken set of rules. The manuals and whatnot hosted on this site technically constitutes a CR infringement, but apparently B&O are fully aware of it, and they live with it. Now, if they were to change their mind tomorrow, they'd have a hell of time if Beoworld decided to stand fast, because in order to protect your copyright you have to defend it. Having allowed BW to host these manuals, they forfeited that right - mostly in relation to BW, of course.

    I know, I just keep on (trucking, lol), but I think it's important to not think that copyright laws are black and white.

    Also, there's a difference between copyright and "rights of use". For instance, whenever I make a journalistic product, be it audio related or something written or even photos, and I then sell it to somewhere, I retain the copyright but the media I'm selling it to get's the rights to use it (not necessarily as they please or to the extent they want, but you get the picture).

     

  • 10-10-2009 3:11 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Basically if it is who I think it is then he's a bloody trouble maker who has he's own agenda.

    I would have loved to have seen the picture, but you know what I can wait a couple of more weeks.

    I would like to point I have no affiliation with either the owners of this site or B&O.

    One more point is, I certainly think that all of the Gold & silver members could be called part owners of the site in a co-operative kind of way because without their subscriptions I do not not think that Beoworld would be financially viable, so with that said if any kind of censorship is going to be exercised then I think that there needs to be a rational debate about it because if we are honest then we were all here before B&O decided to be a part of it.Wink

  • 10-10-2009 4:47 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Electrified:

    Vikinger (plural?? Wink),

    Electrified,

    Plural in Norwegian but entirely different in English! Smile (Too many Vikings about to get away with 'Viking' as a user name!) No need for an endless discussion on copyright........ if I was Lee I'd have done the same because an infringement was obvious and the owner bound not to be happy. No doubt in two weeks time B&O will be overjoyed to see their BV10 pictures copied scanned and published by all......... it will be the situation you describe........ copyright material but the owner standing by whilst the world copies it ....... because it has then become free advertising. Let's all wait that final two weeks and not spoil B&O's offical BV10 launch. Yes -  thumbs up

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 10-10-2009 5:46 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Okay, very off-topic and all, but I don't get what's the difference is in english. "A viking", "two vikings" - in danish and norwegian: "En viking", "to vikinger"? I don't get it at all, lol.

    Sheesh, I'm an idiot! Erm

     

    Anyway, yes, in two weeks time (is that set?), B&O will be more than happy to share their PR photos. Do remember to put something akin to "B&O PR photo" or "Copyright B&O" in the photo credits, though. Not that most people on the web care enough to do that, and B&O doesn't seem like they have resources to pursue something like that, or even a slight interest in it, for that matter.

     

     

  • 10-11-2009 4:38 AM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    What I find strange about this thread is how B&O have reacted and it really concerns me about their marketing abilities and understanding of how to launch a product in the current social and online era. B&O wanting to hold the launch for themselves is what companies used to do years ago, where you put everyone under Non-disclosure and kick anyone in the knee caps who says anything during the embargo.

    I hope that B&O learn something from this stream of negative discussion. Creating leaks and feeding community leaders with sneak peeks over a period of weeks creates a buzz and noise level that a single launch somewhere in Denmark plus a global press release cannot even start to match.

    Instead, what B&O have done - unwittingly - is have a number of their loyal supporters who all have a common interest in their heritage and future products disagreeing with one another and creating unnecessary tension.

    My message to B&O is; you should view this thread as -10 points in your post launch assessment of the BV10 launch. Would love to see how your global press release and launch event will recover what could have been weeks of positive speculation and increasing 'I've got to have it, because its the next Avant' pre-bookings with your dealers for demos. 

    De-centralised launches is the current marketing trend - see Microsoft and their launch parties idea for Windows 7. Not my cup of tea, but certainly the right way. And you have the perfect platform in your dealers upon which to execute. You are not Apple and you should realise the wider repurcussions of getting your marketing, pr or legal team pulling leaks is counter productive nowadays.

    PS. The BV10 does look like the killer product and I'm sure will be the sales success it deserves to be.

     

  • 10-11-2009 3:51 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    This thread asked 'how independent is beoworld'
    No matter how many times I've written and re-written this post in my 'drafts folder' it sounds like a personal attack, this couldn't be further from my intention but try as I might I can't flower over the facts of my point.
    The sad truth is, it is run by and owned by a commercial vendor which is absolutely fine if it was made clear, and also only promotes/advertises itself and prevents any and all competition,  and no matter how I look at it, it is simply wrong. O.K there I've said it.
    I hope I'm not now going to be tarred as a troublemaker as I dearly do love this site and nearly everything it's about, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only one that feels this way, members and dealers alike. I have total respect for Lee and feel I have a very good relationship with him, this is the single only bone of contention I have.
    I feel ive gone about this in the right way and hope this comes across.
    Surely independent means everybody or no body can advertise and to keep with the spirit of Beoworld restricted just those that are of interest to its members, am i been unreasonable?
    I totally agree with the site not being bombarded with advertising at every opportunity throughout threads, as you soon feel you can't trust anything you read when products or services are being indirectly pushed at you in normal discussion.
    In theory at least I do agree with sponsors of the site having the right to relevant advertising. As it stands with business card sized adverts you choose to 'click on' or not and they are kept completely separate from the discussion threads which I agree is how it should be.
    There is a rule that only 1 business per genre can advertise, i.e only 1 pre-owned supplier may sponsor etc. For most new members and possibly many longstanding members it is almost an 'unspoken rule' that I'm not sure many are aware of.
    For a newcomer who has never trusted or bought used B+O then found a site with thousands of loyal members, at first glance you would believe there is only 1 pre-owned company Beoworld trusts and feel a certain safety net then simply look no further .all well and good, but dont they also deserve choice????
    On a couple of occasions my request to sponsor BeoWorld has been rejected due to the ' 1 preowned seller rule ' which Lee has every right to do as the site owner and to be honest I can't say I wouldn't want the same in his position.
    BeoWorld is for certain companies a major place to be seen, and in some cases exactly what some members were looking for.
    Obviously it would benefit me a great deal to do so , as well as benefitting its members.
    Until there is ever a free poll for all Beoworld members to vote on this rule I dont expect it to change,  but is it so unfair to ask if this rule could be highlighted for all members to be aware of.
    I feel I must now apologise for my quite frankly selfish approach to this discussion to get across a point I think needed to be said  by myself but I didn't ever want to start a new thread about this so chose 'how independent is beoworld ' to be the most fitting.
    I must however point out that Lee and Peter both kindly agreed I could keep my username which I am very grateful for and I hope this post doesn't make them reconsider their confidence in me.
    BeoWorld has gone from strength to strength since Lee took over and I believe it is a invaluable source of information full of diverse and informative opinions, independant? well yes on most fronts.
    P.s any news on the Beovision 11!?

    jason

  • 10-11-2009 3:56 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Very measured and sensible post Jason. You have nothing to worry about or to apologise for, at least in my eyes.

    Well done :)

    John

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 10-11-2009 3:58 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Thankyou john, that really means alot to me Smile

    jason

  • 10-11-2009 4:46 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I think Jason has got a point here.

    I do a lot of work on the Internet, and forums are usually divided into two sorts:

    1) A forum about a certain companys products, usually run by that company. These forums are usually moderated (or censored) by that parent company.

    2) A completely independant forum where anyone can discuss any opinion that they want without any real censorship.

    I originally thought that this forum was one of the second kind, free, open and independant. But a quick look at the "who is" record for the domain name tells you that it's actually owned by a B&O dealer, and there does seem to be some "censorship".

     

    I think that it should be made clear to people who post on the forum that their opinions (or other subjects) are open to removal if they go against the business motivations of the sites owners.

     

    Secret forum editing? Seems to be what's happening.

     

    Surely a forum should be open to the free exchange of ideas, information and maybe even B&O gear....?

     

    City Kid

     

  • 10-11-2009 4:46 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I was utterly unaware of that rule. That's good to know. It puts things in a (little) different light.

     

  • 10-11-2009 5:05 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    This site was rescued from imminent collapse by Lee at LifestyleAV. This involved him buying the site at a considerable cost and then rebuilding it. Even before this happened, he was sponsoring the site. It was decided at that time to have only one sponsor from any one category advertising on the forum so that it did not go the way of numerous message boards before it. I know as I have seen these come and go. For a number of years, this site was paid for by voluntary donation - which effectively meant Steve ran it and I paid a fair sum each month. At that time we took no advertising at all. However with the increased traffic that a successful forum brought and the addition of many manuals increasing band width, the site became considerably less stable and crashed a lot. To deal with this, we needed a new server and the site to be more efficient. This was essentially why sponsorship was taken in a minimal fashion.

    Lee bought the site shortly after as we were still in financial difficulties and has transformed the site. I think it is perfectly fair that he has a monopoly on advertising banners in his category. Despite the posts above, very little is censored on this site other than profanities and blatant advertising. I have been the moderator ever since the forum started originally by myself and in recent years as part of a team. We have no editorial control from Lee apart from the fact that he is on the moderating team.

    This subject is raised from time to time, usually by dealers who obviously would like to advertise on Beoworld. There are also a number of members who also wish this to be the case. However this site is privately owned as has been pointed out before and the rules are posted at the top of the forum.

    This has meant that this site has remained free of blatant advertising - Lee has never peppered his posts with advertising - and has meant that this site has remained as a source of information and help for thousands of members. It has also allowed us to offer superb prizes on a monthly basis.

    I must confess that this constant carping makes this a much less pleasant place for me to be and I have been considering my position for some time. If the members would like me to stand down them I will happily do so. I would certainly not be happy with more advertising than we presently have. If people wish to search for re-sellers of B&O, they only have to Google it and all the big sellers appear.

  • 10-11-2009 5:12 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Don't even consider doing that Peter!

    Surely the carpers are only an unrepresentative minority?

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 10-11-2009 5:14 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Copenhagen / Denmark
    • Posts 5,008
    • Founder

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Citykid,

    Welcome to Beoworld !

    So it would be OK if B&O (or one of their official dealers) were running Beoworld but
    not when it's a person dealing in pre-owned B&O, who just happens to own and run the site ?

    Funny how this thread seems to attract members, who either don't understand how
    Beoworld works, how independant an enthusiast site can possibly be or simply haven't read
    or understood the forum rules.
    And now even a member that, after being a member more than a year, in the members very first post
    on Beoworld, complaints.
    I am speechless !

    No "secret forum editing" is going on, indeed very little moderating is going on but we can't tell you
    everytime we delete a spam or move a post from one section to another, it's pure housekeeping and we
    actually told you that we deleted a photo so no secrets here.

    Maybe Peter is right, we moderators are just in the way.

    Martin

  • 10-11-2009 5:40 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    When the site was owned by Steve James I understand morethanAV offered to sponsor the site in order to ensure it remained 'independent' i.e. out of the hands of a single controlling company.  This was rejected despite the apparent financial difficulties.  The owner of that Company was banned from the site for continually 'carping on' about the site losing its independence and posts being edited.  Well at least someone made a stand.

  • 10-11-2009 5:52 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Ive simply stated my opinion to the title of this thread, which i knew wouldnt be popular with the moderating team but figured you knew me well enough to know id only bring this up if i was sure i had a valid point , ive read the rules and im sorry its just not atall clear to anyone, this is what i said was wrong.

    Other that that i think the site is amazing, if this is a recurring thread maybe it needs addressing , we all share the same passion for Bang and Olufsen , i hope you agree we are all intelligent people that dont want to be misled .

     

    jason

  • 10-11-2009 6:17 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Peter's posting guideline is pretty clear:

    Quote:

    This is a friendly and informal forum. However please remember that it is frequented by minors and those of a nervous disposition! Therefore we would be most grateful if members would avoid profanities and insults. Any offending posts will be removed by the moderators. Opinions on threads are those of the original poster and not necessarily those of Beoworld. Beoworld is supported by certain selected advertisers: other companies and individuals are requested not to post advertisements on site without permission from the administrators. Unauthorised advertising will be removed and the poster liable to suspension.

    End quote.

    If the unpublished (?) rule on sponsorship was modified to allow, say, more than one pre-owned B&O dealer to advertise then surely Lee would then need to offer that facility at a commercial rate. Is it that as the site becomes more successful, more will clamour to get on board?  Would that route offer any more true independence?I don't think it would. There are no really independent forums(but several less well managed!)

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 10-11-2009 6:39 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Just so you know, prior to my posting I did contact Lee with a copy of one of my drafts just to let him know what I proposed to post, this was done out of respect and friendship for Lee that means a lot to me. He responded and said it was a free speech forum and to post whatever I wanted to.

    This is not intended as a slanging match, I merely gave my opinion and as individuals we will often have differing opinions on all manner of issues, I believe this to be a forum where such discussions can be broached.

    It's a shame I've been reduced to a carper for having the same opinion as many before me, but amusingly quite fitting as I love a bit of fishing! Big Smile (for anyone that's interested my record is currently 17.9lb carp) 

    jason

  • 10-11-2009 7:09 PM In reply to

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    Iconic-AV:

    It's a shame I've been reduced to a carper for having the same opinion as many before me, but amusingly quite fitting as I love a bit of fishing! Big Smile (for anyone that's interested my record is currently 17.9lb carp) 

    Ha Ha, Ive only ever been carp fishing once and i caught a 19lb'er

     

    Never Mind The Ball-Cocks www.markmossplumbing.co.uk

    A labourer uses his hands
    A tradesman uses his hands and his head
    A craftsman uses his hands, his head and his heart

  • 10-11-2009 7:11 PM In reply to

    • rgs218
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 01-13-2009
    • Oxfordshire, UK
    • Posts 115
    • Gold Member

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    I had decided against posting here for fear of unnecessarily extending this already absurd thread, but as it seems a minority are intent on demoralizing and alienating the people that put in vast amounts of time (and in a few cases money) to make this site the excellent resource it is, I thought I better add another voice of support.

    The very idea that this site is not independent and has somehow become subordinate to the will of B&O is frankly ridiculous. Since I have been visiting this forum I have seen a number of posts from members criticizing this site for being too anti-B&O! And now this! Anyone who visits this site regularly will know that new B&O products are regularly slated. Removing a blurry photo that was not supposed to be in the public domain does not, to me, signify any loss of independence. To me, independence does not necessarily entail the right to do whatever you want. It is no great secret who owns this site, but other than the ad at the tope of the page, I have never seen any self-promotion take place here by Lee. There have, if I recall correctly, even been a couple of threads assessing the merits/negatives of the various different used B&O retailers.  

    This site is run professionally by experts who I’m pretty sure are all genuine and in many cases I know to be very generous individuals. Not only do you invariably get fast and comprehensive answers to questions but issues affecting the site, including the decision to have an informal relationship with B&O, are openly discussed with all members. It is not surprising that some of the people who put the most effort into this site are insulted by the OTT nature of some of the comments posted here. I would be.

    Gold/silver membership is not equivalent to ownership and does not entail an automatic right to determine how the site is run – you are paying for a product / service like any other purchase. No, it is not a true democracy, but for goodness sake, it is a privately owned B&O enthusiast’s forum! I fear there are some who take the role of the internet forum a little too seriously! The way some people are going on you’d think they’d uncovered a major political scandal! This is not a small renegade, unmanaged forum of the sort that litter the internet (and which are full of the unconstructive conspiracy theories and bickering we have witnessed in this thread) – if it was I wouldn’t be here, and most importantly probably would never have discovered a love for B&O! I’m sure there are plenty of members who would agree with that sentiment.  

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but those who don’t share a positive view of this site and those that run it are free to leave any time! However, if they succeed in carrying out the aims of the OP, undermining what this site does best and driving away the people that make it what it is, I won’t thank them for it! I must congratulate “Sven Peter” though for successfully turning a few unwitting forum members into puppets for his childish vendetta!

    Perhaps they could set up a cheaply run competitor where blurry photos of upcoming products can be viewed freely, and they can enjoy the satisfaction of their minor ‘victory’ over the corporate world - that is until they are bombarded by unsolicited spam!

    Anyway, the point of all this waffle isn’t to add fuel to the fire, but hopefully to make it very clear to the moderators and Lee that their work is appreciated by the vast majority of members, including those like me who aren’t regular posters, and not to loose heart because of the opinions of a very vocal minority. Keep up the hard work!

  • 10-12-2009 3:22 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: How independent is Beoworld?

    The site is what the site is - it's been here long enough that nothing should be a surprise, yes there are more than IconicAV who would like to advertise here, is that because the site is dependant or independent of B&O, or LifeStyle-AV ............................. no, it's because it's successful - the dependence or not isn't a factor, it's the potential number of viewers.

    In an ideal world sponsors of any kind would be unnecessary and the site would be self-financing, however if a few discrete ads make the difference then that's OK.

    I would not be adverse to a list of resellers, maybe somewhere on the mainsite similar to the dealer list but I would stop short of more adverts.

    It would be a very silly shopper indeed who didn't do as Peter suggested and Google his potential purchase and possible vendors first. And Peter, as disheartening as stuff like this must be (some of it from repeat offenders), please don't even consider standing down, we can't let the spirit or standards of Beoworld slip just because of a few dissenters.

    Personally I find this whole thread rather saddening.Sad

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

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