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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-12-2009 2:23 PM by danezro. 91 replies.
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  • 09-06-2009 3:39 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Peter :
    A poor product now will always be a poor product - a good product will always be good.

    Agreed.

    I just try to look forward 40-50 years... anyone suppose Dillen's grandchildren will be writing threads on restoring a BS5? Laughing

    Seriously, the problem in simplest terms is that B&o seem to be functioning to the inverse of Moore's Law as it might be applied in the AV industry.

    Technology is supposed to advance and prices are supposed to drop. Confused

    As others... I will say again... I really hope they make it!

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 09-06-2009 3:43 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Is the latest and greatest technology what "everybody" needs to cope with life, especially when it has to do with "entertainment" products?  It's "life style" not life sustaining.  Technology, like B&O is background stuff, and not the forefront of my daily existance, or at least that is how I treat it.  Plus if I want to add another B&O product years from now I can do it, because thats the way B&O has always been.   

  • 09-06-2009 4:29 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I think part of my gripe with B&O is not that they are not offering the latest and greatest (which they clearly are not, and we can debate that until the cows come home) - but their efforts are only 70%.

    Sure, Apple has a huge market cap - of course pre-iPOD they were about to disappear -but why have the risen from the ashes?

    They have a slick product with an amazing and integrated user interface.  The stuff works, it is easy to use, and it doesnt try to be something that it is not.  Now look at B&O - pick a product (particularly the recent ones).  The key chain?  limited range, a button for light control (and yet no product to control lights anymore), an audio on/off and a video on/off button (how about programmable buttons?  1 for radio? 1 for CD or maybe 1 for video?) - all in a package that is a little too bug (IMHO).  I have a BS3200 - their first branch into digital media - no way of loading non-CD music, 1:1 recording speed (hence very slow).  An index system based on colors - a naming system that is obviously DOS based and barely usable.  This forum is full of complaints about the TVs (besides the obscene pricing) not having the basic connectors.  Masterlink, powerlink, whatever - does anyone understand how it works other than wiring all over a house.  WiFi is everywhere - a reasonable standard, if iTunes can stream audio throughout a home - why cant B&O come up with something to tie there stuff together?  Sure, would like to have a Beolab 3500 in my bedroom - but I dont have any way to wire it.  Other little things that dont seem to make sense - why does a Beosound 1 have a headphone jack in the middle of the back? (afterthoughts?)  Why no separate AUX input or button?  

    If B&O prides itself on design - then there appears to be a lot missing in the design besides something that looks pretty - the functionality appears to  be an afterthought......

     

    -michael

  • 09-06-2009 4:54 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I agree with a earlier note that the comparison between Apple and B&O is probably not right... from a financial perspective as well as product design and creation perspective.

    Probably a comparison with Meridian should make more sense. A company driven by audio and movie reproduction. High build standards (although quite a different design Wink ) and also moving in new directions with there acquired Sooloos.

    What I miss in the arguments of Trip regarding the custom marker, is that most good audio and video systems can be incorporated in systems from Luton, Creston, Philips (Pronto line) or KNX/EIB based systems. This include systems like Meridian, Loewe, T+A, Panasonic, Planar etc. etc. What besides the design of B&O makes them better suited for this market than any of their competitors? I can not believe that installation time is the major concern in such cases. What makes it more difficult to connect a Panasonic screen to a Creston (as an example) than a B&O solution?

    As many stated before, B&O makes in general well designed products which in the case of the speakers and other audio products with a good or even excellent sound.

    What I miss, is the ability to mix B&O with other components. I would like to combine the audio systems with a down scaled Beosystem 3 or a Beosystem 3+ which can drive multiple screens independently with TV's and other video systems from other brands, iPod/Soolos MP3 system, full OS X, Linux  and Windows support and integrate it with my KNX/EIB based domotica solution. Come on Trip, deliver that "custom" walhalla to me!

     

  • 09-06-2009 5:18 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    moxxey:

    9 LEE:

    I disagree that only the 'techy' people come on here

    Absolutely, of course you can disagree. However, if you look at the circulation of our top consumer PC title, it sells around 175,000 copies. However, we have 25,000 registered users and less than 2,000 active users. Very similar situation. If all 25,000 registered users posted on our forums, we'd be absolutely inundated. The forum is still a key part of the magazine readership and an important element for our advertisers etc.

    Anyway, the point is still valid Lee - the average B&O customer is still within the age group described, still is not so tech literate and wants someone to do it all for them.

    Besides, a lot of British people with (new) money are snobs and this is why a lot of these people bought B&O. They don't understand 1080p, HD or even digital. However, by buying B&O - and spending the money - they feel that they've bought 'the best', assuming it does have all the latest features. This was maybe true in the Avant days, but less so now. As the B&O audience becomes more tech savvy (most people under 40 use and understand computers), they are also becoming away that B&O != 'the best', in all circumstances.

    I agree with some of this. However, most people do not understand computers in the same way that many drivers don't understand what's under the bonnet. As time goes on the interfaces get better and you just don't need that understanding as a user. Just as software and hardware should be getting better and cheaper and more intuitive you would think that B&O would be able to focus more on the external appearances and interfaces, with up-dateable plug-in modules to prevent premature obsolescence. (How many people would buy a B&O branded module that enabled their FM equipment to convert to DAB or N Radio?)

    We all get a distorted view of the world from where we stand, physically and in terms of age, at any moment. B&O have to make their own judgement as to where the market is, who's buying and how to gain or maintain a loyal following.

    My wife used to work in radio and television sales for John Lewis. They reckoned that it only took about 6 weeks for a newly sold computer or TV to be superseded by a later version. When we bought our Avant (new from B&O)) a few years ago it was actually my wife's choice after an extended demonstration (and by doing so this was  a resounding endorsement of B&O against any number of quality alternative JL stocked TVs at a fraction of the price). A decision we've never regretted........ but I do hesitate over further TV updating having become better informed on Beoworld!

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 09-06-2009 6:54 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    vikinger:

    moxxey:

    9 LEE:

    I disagree that only the 'techy' people come on here

    Absolutely, of course you can disagree. However, if you look at the circulation of our top consumer PC title, it sells around 175,000 copies. However, we have 25,000 registered users and less than 2,000 active users. Very similar situation. If all 25,000 registered users posted on our forums, we'd be absolutely inundated. The forum is still a key part of the magazine readership and an important element for our advertisers etc.

    Anyway, the point is still valid Lee - the average B&O customer is still within the age group described, still is not so tech literate and wants someone to do it all for them.

    Besides, a lot of British people with (new) money are snobs and this is why a lot of these people bought B&O. They don't understand 1080p, HD or even digital. However, by buying B&O - and spending the money - they feel that they've bought 'the best', assuming it does have all the latest features. This was maybe true in the Avant days, but less so now. As the B&O audience becomes more tech savvy (most people under 40 use and understand computers), they are also becoming away that B&O != 'the best', in all circumstances.

    I agree with some of this. However, most people do not understand computers in the same way that many drivers don't understand what's under the bonnet. As time goes on the interfaces get better and you just don't need that understanding as a user. Just as software and hardware should be getting better and cheaper and more intuitive you would think that B&O would be able to focus more on the external appearances and interfaces, with up-dateable plug-in modules to prevent premature obsolescence. (How many people would buy a B&O branded module that enabled their FM equipment to convert to DAB or N Radio?)

    We all get a distorted view of the world from where we stand, physically and in terms of age, at any moment. B&O have to make their own judgement as to where the market is, who's buying and how to gain or maintain a loyal following.

    My wife used to work in radio and television sales for John Lewis. They reckoned that it only took about 6 weeks for a newly sold computer or TV to be superseded by a later version. When we bought our Avant (new from B&O)) a few years ago it was actually my wife's choice after an extended demonstration (and by doing so this was  a resounding endorsement of B&O against any number of quality alternative JL stocked TVs at a fraction of the price). A decision we've never regretted........ but I do hesitate over further TV updating having become better informed on Beoworld!

    Graham

     

    ...and this 'bettered information' is mostly factual Graham. I too have learnt a lot from debates on this forum and of course my own observations of products in store. My next TV purchase which will almost certainly be B&O, will be second hand. I will not make the mistake of buying a brand new B&O TV again, but then I am someone who does not like to see money go to waste and I want (and expect) a certain value to my purchases.

    With regards to earlier points made that we expect to much given the current climate of technology, I totally disagree with that and believe that products can and should be made a lot more futureproof than we have seen from B&O in recent years.

    Simon.

  • 09-07-2009 6:23 AM In reply to

    • Thomas
    • Not Ranked
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    • Joined on 05-25-2009
    • Salisbury
    • Posts 22
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Couple of thoughts:

    All brands experience strong and less-successful eras, and at times have 'Serenata/DVD2 moments' - Aston Martin Cygnet anyone? (for those that may not have seen: http://www.carpages.co.uk/aston_martin/aston-martin-cygnet-29-06-09.asp

    Obviously, everyone is going crazy about Apple gear at the moment, but it wasn't always so - besides, as has been said before, they cannot be compared with B&O really - the materials and the user experience when B&O gets it right, is as good as it gets!

    There is no doubt that B&O has gone through a rough patch (and made some daft decisions/failed to invest in software etc), but I belive there is new thinking coming out of Denmark now - and I'm over the moon with our BV8-40 and Beo5 deal this year. I'd be happier still if there was a sensible way of listening to NetRadio in the bedroom and chahging stations, without doing it 'blind'.

    One of my other favorite brands, Saab, has had a terrible time over the last 10 years or so, but things are on the up in this new post-GM era - let's hope it's the same for B&O. In the meantime we can all offer our suggestions in the forums, hoping that the bigwigs at B&O are watching too!

    Cheers,

    Thomas

  • 09-07-2009 6:55 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Thomas:

    I'm over the moon with our BV8-40 and Beo5 deal this year.

    To be fair, this was a crackingly good deal. In hindsight, why did I bother spending an extra £3K to upgrade from the BV7-40 MKIII to the MKIV? I'd have been better finding another £800....and buying a brand new BV8-40 with Beo5 and keeping both TVs!

  • 09-07-2009 7:12 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    There is a part of the problem why make do with what started of as a link TV the BV8 40 is nice tv but its no substitute for the style of the BV7 Maybe B&O are very isolated in there thinking a they need to become more international in there ideas
  • 09-07-2009 8:08 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I've read so many things about B&O... one more thread i say.

    B&O it's all about design + integration so they say... i just say that everything is true but there's a lack of upgrades + common platform + HW update.

    I do have several B&O products and i'm happy with them, yes, i'm telling the true but... B&O should invest in technology + usability.

    When i new product get's in the market it's "almost" outdated when compared with other similar brands and that folks makes me terribly unhappy.

    "Less is more" but we surely can have good taste with the proper functionality and keep up with the needs that costumers face everyday.

    Pedro "Less is more"

    BV7-40 MKII + BL7.2 + BL9 + BL3 + BS4 + BL4 + A9 + Earset 2 + 2 x Beo4 + BeoCom 5

  • 09-07-2009 8:54 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Since someone brought up Saab - another Scandanavian company that could not (can not?) compete on the World Stage.  Sure there products might be great in Europe and many have a love or hate relationship with their design and frankly - their product was just to expensive (to buy and maintain) here in the U.S.  I liked the newer ones and my Mother bought a Saab in the ~2000 (9-3) - was just the right size for her, zippy, fun to drive - and always in the shop.  The tires were high performance and she would wear them out after a year - and of course the rims were aluminum and hence also had to be replaced.  Several thousand dollars for a tire change.  Oil changes were thru the roof and had to be done at the dealer.  Scheduling appointments were always a headache, repairs would take forever, the customer service sucked!  She finally got so fed up with it that she got an Infiniti and then a Lexus - and anyone who owns one knows why they are leaders in the world auto market.  Free loaner cars, they will come to her house/office to pick up the cars, free car washes (and not just watering it down...),  minor problems related to design issues were taken care for for free (the protective coating on the tire rims started bubbling - instantly replaced, free, no questions asked)..... and so on.  

     

    Having a high end product requires high-end support - oh, wait - how about basic support.

     

    The proprietary masterlink and the headaches involved in getting any of this stuff working is just not worth the effort - why?  Because it does not have to be that way.  Again, going back to why Apple is successful - plug it in, turn it on, it works.  And the user interface is great.

     

    Simple functions with B&O are a pain - have had my stuff for years and have not been able to directly input a radio station number/frequency from my Beo4 (a remote in which half the buttons are useless or out of date).  

     

    You have to know your market - look at Ikea.... they are getting it right.

    In addition, even though I live in a town with a B&O store (probably the closest for several hundred kilometers) - there is no aftermarket, no used/trade-in

    Another recent experience - I just bought an Oppo BluRay - had a small problem which required several phone calls and a bunch of emails to customer support (was something that was ultimately my issue and not a design flaw), but they worked it out.  They are a small company with a high tech (and beautiful) product - and the reviews across the world praise it.

     

    If B&O TVs (not to mention some of their other stuff) are so great - then show me that data, the reviews, the awards?  Go to any major audiophile site and do a search for B&O.  Nothing!  I am a loyalist (although not really a fan), but I am not convinced.  

     

    Sure, if there are musicians out there that love the stuff that love it - let's hear from them!  The advertising, the marketing, etc leaves much to be desired.  There is a Davidoff (sp?) cigarette ad featuring some 30-something trust fund boy relaxing and listening with Form headphones (gee, wish I could use mine - no pads, remember - still waiting) - this is the image they want to promote?  If Lenny Kravitz is so loyal - let's hear from him!

     

    -michael

  • 09-07-2009 2:06 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    MGBGTV8:
    There is a part of the problem why make do with what started of as a link TV the BV8 40 is nice tv but its no substitute for the style of the BV7 Maybe B&O are very isolated in there thinking a they need to become more international in there ideas

    I don't know MGB... If the BV8-40 was available when I was looking at the BV7-40 Mark III I would have bought that instead, no question. I don't see it as a link room TV at all, it would have been perfect for me as my main living room TV and the picture quality is out of this world. Would have cost me a lot less too. Difficult to make the 'perfect choices' when technology changes so quickly. For anyone buying an 8-40 TV now though I think its a first class product for the price.

    Simon.

  • 09-07-2009 3:41 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I don't know MGB... If the BV8-40 was available when I was looking at the BV7-40 Mark III I would have bought that instead, no question. I don't see it as a link room TV at all, it would have been perfect for me as my main living room TV and the picture quality is out of this world. Would have cost me a lot less too.

    Why don't you Simon? You would get more for your BV7-40 MKIII than you would for the cost of a brand new BV8-40 with its 1080P screen and 100Hz panel. You get a brand new TV, a TV you like, without paying a thing?

    BTW the PQ isn't quite as good as the BV7-40 MKIV though.

  • 09-07-2009 3:43 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    moxxey:

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I don't know MGB... If the BV8-40 was available when I was looking at the BV7-40 Mark III I would have bought that instead, no question. I don't see it as a link room TV at all, it would have been perfect for me as my main living room TV and the picture quality is out of this world. Would have cost me a lot less too.

    Why don't you Simon? You would get more for your BV7-40 MKIII than you would for the cost of a brand new BV8-40 with its 1080P screen and 100Hz panel. You get a brand new TV, a TV you like, without paying a thing?

    BTW the PQ isn't quite as good as the BV7-40 MKIV though.

    Are you talking about a straight swap Chris?

    Simon.

  • 09-07-2009 4:41 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    The_Beonic_Man:

    Are you talking about a straight swap Chris?

    Simon.

    A straight swap is possible, but you'd need to push hard. Your MKIII is probably 'worth' £3500, tops, to your dealer, but they still make a profit on a BV8-40, so they might go for it.

    Alternatively, sell the MKIII privately and use the money to the BV8-40.

    It's worth considering. The PQ on the BV8-40 is definitely better than your MKIII and you like the BV8-40. Win-win!

  • 09-07-2009 5:02 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    mfirst:

      Sure, would like to have a Beolab 3500 in my bedroom - but I dont have any way to wire it. 

     

    -michael

    Beolink Wireless? You need a newer 3500 but otherwise no problem.

     

  • 09-07-2009 6:26 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Beolab 3500 ($2000) + 2 wireless Beo things ($800/each) = $3600.  

    And not exactly sure what I get - however.....  AppleTV ($300) + Airport express ($75 year) and I get much more functionality.......

    I have not heard anything promising about the Beowireless - just another Beo "black box" that marginally works and no one understands how they work......

     

  • 09-07-2009 7:14 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    hi moxxey or anyone who owns or have seen this tv how would you compare the new bv8-40 100hz processing to other brands? do you know if bang-olufsens 100hz processing uses any vision clear properties in there. reason being is that i saw one in selfridges the other day and compared it to the other tvs that i saw in the other sections and theres just something about the picture on the bv8-40 that just stood out to me more than the other lcds with 100hz proessing. i can't put my finger on what it is about it but everything did look more fluid and sharp i did see some motion blur hear and there but the overall picture was incredible if not spectacular i would just like to no if anybody knows any info into what b&0 does in terms of the processing that they put into the bv8-40 or the new bv7-40 that makes the images look good and so different to the competition any comments or responses would be really appreciated.

  • 09-07-2009 7:49 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Apple TV will be replaced, I-Pods will be replaced, compatibility will be limited with future products and the technology will continue to evolve 'for the next must have function or next new compnay. If B&O doesn't meet your every desire today.....move on to the product that does.  And when that product line lets you down, or doesn't do what YOU think it should then complain about it and move on to one that does ....and when that one doesn't do it for you .......

  • 09-07-2009 8:09 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    When my Beosound 1 went dead 3 years after I bought it, a private repair guy charged me 1/3 of my purchase price to "fix" it (B&O wouldnt even look at it and referred me to him).  When my Mom's Beosystem whatever (15 years/old) CD player stopped working - they sold her an adapter to hook up to her Bose wave radio.  Yes, my local dealer has given me a little deal every once in awhile ("free" battery for my Beocom 6000 when I bought a new wireless phone or a wall bracket for my 3200 when I bought my Lab2 - at full price) and toss in a CD or two and a bottle opener.  Still waiting for my replacement pads for my Form (as mentioned coming from Denmark, I could have and should have ordered them from Lee!  England is much closer than Denmark) - which cost me $20 for 2 cheap pieces of foam!

    When the electrical system on my 6 year/old Infiniti G35 trashed my car's sound system - it was all completely replaced free of charge, no questions asked, and a thank you (they also washed the car inside and out).

    My expectations for a $300 iPhone are a little different than a >$3000 music system and they are different for a >$30,000 car.  If B&O is going to charge a premium and insist on being a high end brand, they need to earn it.  

    -m

     

     

  • 09-07-2009 9:43 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    it's not that I hate B&O - I like many on this forum have a love/hate relationship with them.  For what they offer, for the prices they charge, and in the current world culture in which they must compete - they need to look at their big picture plans.  What may have worked 20-30 years ago and what might work in Europe (or maybe just Denmark) doesnt work here in the U.S. - it could, but they have to do better to make me deal with the headaches.  I am trying to stay married, they need to meet me half way.

    -michael

  • 09-08-2009 3:06 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    mfirst:

    When my Beosound 1 went dead 3 years after I bought it, a private repair guy charged me 1/3 of my purchase price to "fix" it (B&O wouldnt even look at it and referred me to him).  When my Mom's Beosystem whatever (15 years/old) CD player stopped working - they sold her an adapter to hook up to her Bose wave radio.  Yes, my local dealer has given me a little deal every once in awhile ("free" battery for my Beocom 6000 when I bought a new wireless phone or a wall bracket for my 3200 when I bought my Lab2 - at full price) and toss in a CD or two and a bottle opener.  Still waiting for my replacement pads for my Form (as mentioned coming from Denmark, I could have and should have ordered them from Lee!  England is much closer than Denmark) - which cost me $20 for 2 cheap pieces of foam!

    When the electrical system on my 6 year/old Infiniti G35 trashed my car's sound system - it was all completely replaced free of charge, no questions asked, and a thank you (they also washed the car inside and out).

    My expectations for a $300 iPhone are a little different than a >$3000 music system and they are different for a >$30,000 car.  If B&O is going to charge a premium and insist on being a high end brand, they need to earn it.  

    -m

    Hi Michael,

     

    Sadly your dealer is only selling and not helping you. In a case like this just make clear to the sales person or to the shop owner that you expect a 12 year minimum life for a Beosound 1. Tel him/her to solve the problem and to have direct contact with B&O for a fair solution. When they have contacted B&O and they do not solve the Beosound 1 problem only just than tell them “are you telling me that I have to consider to ask my lawyer to advise me?”

     

    I have very very good experiences with B&O tech shops. I can advise you to search for a good B&O service shop in the US. Try and ask other US members. I hope you do not need help in future, but just in case.

     

    Regards, Robert

  • 09-08-2009 4:23 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    No wonder B+O arent doing well in the usa infinity doing warranty after 6 years fab service the b+o warranty is 2 years standard

    for the prices maybe 10 years warranty would be enticing

    although some products  do have great resale that may help  in the buying decision 

     

  • 09-08-2009 10:04 AM In reply to

    • Stan
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 593
    • Gold Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Why wasn't your Beosound 1 still covered by the standard 3yr warranty here in the US?

    Stan

  • 09-08-2009 10:21 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    It was not covered under warranty - this was a few years ago and I had already had it for a few years (could not have been that long since it has not been out that long).

    The resale issue - while very valid and is appropriate for things like cars - there is no second hand or trade-in market in the United States (short of ebay).  Even some of the high end stereo places rarely have any interest in buying or selling or trading B&O.

     

    -michael

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