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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-12-2009 2:23 PM by danezro. 91 replies.
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  • 09-05-2009 9:34 AM

    B & O starting to fall behind?

    Greetings to all, first I would like to thank the people managing this forum and the invaluable help they have been supplying.

    Second, this is my first post so I do not know I what I am about to bring up is recurrent, so please be patient.

    Well here it goes;

    I have been a big fan of B&O (and still am) since over two decades now. I still love everything they do yet lately I have the feeling that they are falling back quite heavily. When you confront them with these maters their response to everything is "... we are waiting to see what happens..." or something of the sort... Blu-Ray was two year late and no even fully implemented across the line and they latest marvel, the BeoSound 5, is almost redundant if you have AppleTV, and iPod and iTunes. Granted, it is a joy to look at and operate but other than that it offers very poor performance compared to the other options. 

    Anyway since I guess that people at B&O do monitor this forum here are some issues (wishes) that for some reason I fail to see at B&O and have no news that they will be introduced anytime soon;

    - Recording: Right now there is no way to record Digital TV signal without locking your TV into that channel. I have the HDR1 and DVD2 and both only have analogue tuners for recording. Since most counties in Europe will not transmit TV in the Analogue format this would be a pressing matter.

         - Will these devices ever be able to be upgraded with a digital receiver?

         - Is there a new unit on the way?

         - Will you even offer an internal HD for recording on the BV7? If yes, can it be installed in older BV7?

    - BeoVision 7:

        - Is it just me or do the menus seem a bit "old"?

        - How come there is no feature in the EPG that alows you to automatically switch or tell you that a programing is about to start? Recording is not my first option...

         - Why are there no interactive Internet features. Other similar products all have internet connections and WiFi as an option. Should the BV7 not be ahead of the competition? 

         - Is the limitation of options to be changed by the user a bit too limited? I would love to be able to change options of things such as sharpness, saturation and even the small display on the right.

     

    - BeoSound5:

         - Don't you think that 500 Gb. is a bit "not enough"? Many of your customers have extensive CD collections that they would like to store without any compression. Sizes of up to 2 or even 4 Tb. should be available.

         - Video support? Isn't the BS5 not the ideal way to download HD video content from the internet to be than played back on a screen?

     

    - Light control:

         - What about an LC3? The LC2 was a great way to "self made" home automation. It was easy, to the point and cheap. Well, at least not as expensive at a Lutron installation.

     

    - Speakers

         - Is it just me or are their two top speakers (BL5 and BL9) as ugly as the can get? They sure sound great yet with the others I had no argument with putting them in my living room. I showed my wife the BL5 hoping I could upgrade from my BL1 and she told me "only over her dead body!!!". Looking at both, she was right, while one disappears despite its size the other is a contraption.

     

    Anyway, I would love to hear your comments.

    Thanks.

  • 09-05-2009 10:16 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Welcome to Beoworld.

    I agree with most of what you say. B&O is no longer an early adopter brand - but it does offer good quality, albeit at a price. The digital recording issue is certainly a problem - I use Sky+ as this integrates seamlessly and offers all I want. The HDR1/2 certainly do not offer anything like the flexibility.

    I agree that the BM5 has too small a HDD though this can be expanded. Seems a bit silly when disc space is so cheap though.

    I rather like the BL5 though it does not disappear like either the Penta or BL1. WAF does not seem too high on the feature list here!

    The problem with the light controllers is the lack of a central controller. In the early days, the two way control allowed a great deal of programming but this has all gone. Therefore the reliance on Lutron, which is a good but expensive system. There are other light controls that work with B&O in a similar way to the LC2.

     

  • 09-05-2009 10:41 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I also agree with these sentiments. B&O is not as groundbreaking as it once was and that is a great shame. Generally speaking I would not think twice when it comes to buying speakers, audio equipment and telephones from B&O but their TVs and rest of the range leave a lot to be desired. The BeoLab 5s I don't particularly like either although the sound quality is unquestionable.

    The design of the BeoLab 9s I do like very much. The BeoLab 3s are also a neat design and again with exceptional sound reproduction. I agree that the BeoSound 5 looks great but doesn't offer much else. I hoped it would never happen but I feel B&O have got 'too big for their boots' i.e. they have assumed that just because they were once great - they still are - and that their customers (new and old) would pay prices for their products regardless of their design and performance.

    This is simply not the case. They need to make way for new designers and new more open-minded and less greedy people in strategic management positions. If they carry on at this rate we'll be seeing brushed stainless steel/aliminium replaced with brushed plastic and coming off a conveyor belt in China. They need to do something to restore faith in the brand.

    Simon.

  • 09-05-2009 11:38 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I don't think that B&O has problems with their hardware. I recently got my BV4 65" and nothing comes close. At first I bought it because it fits to the speakers and aluminum casing. But the picture in every way is stunning (DVB-C, Apple TV, Blu Ray).

    No other company does combine audio and video quality like B&O. Neither Pioneer, Loewe nor Sony.

    What I think is, that B&O needs a common software platform: BeoSound 5 would be fantastic with a Apple like software infrastructure. Apple's success with Steve Jobs is MacOS X and looking at todays iPod touch, iPhone, Mac and AppleTV, they run OS X. For me it seems like B&O has no knowledge in software... with a real software platform integration and develepment would be much better and faster.

  • 09-05-2009 12:42 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Well, I have the same feeling. Technology is changing faster than ever. In the past, B&O always made sure that the technology they used, was the technology that won the technology battle e.g. VHS over Betamax, BlueRay etc.

    In my opinion they still do a great job identifying the technology worth supporting / embedding in their technology (just read the latest investors report). Being a small company compared to Phillips, Panasonic etc. they don't have the financial resources to play in the same league.

    But things are changing faster than ever. In my opinion BlueRay or any other disc is becoming obsolete as the Internet provider putting more and more bandwith in the game, thus allowing us to use high speed services e.g. Apple TV etc. Ultimately all music and films will be purchased or rented via the net. Panasonic is selling HD-TV's with 600hz now. I own a Beovision 5 TV for 5 years now. Still happy with it but the system is completely outdated if it comes to Full-HD, HDMI connections etc. I am locked out connecting modern devices e.g Apple TV to my system.

    At a price tag of € 20.000 for the Beovision5 the obsolence curve is far too steep. Will I buy another "latest technology TV system" from B&O at similar price levels in the future?

    I doubt it.

    Nevertheless, the Beolab 5 speakers in my living room are great to look at and produce a gorgeous sound. I still stick to B&O as with their Beolink, they are still way ahead of the pack. Being able to listen to all music sources in all rooms of my home. Whow it is still awesome.

    Hope B&O will generate enough revenue to stay in the game. It looks that Loewe is on the way overtaking them.

    Mikethebike

  • 09-05-2009 1:28 PM In reply to

    • Evan
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Well I think you have struck a chord of common ground between all B&O products. Dating back to the 80s/90s, for instance, my BG4500 does not show track time, have a repeat function, or shuffle feature. Yet a period magnavox piece has all the same features. Im also a great fan of B&O and always will be, but I must agree with that point of yours devilla.

    Evan

     

  • 09-05-2009 2:01 PM In reply to

    • ed7
    • Top 200 Contributor
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I have been saying that for a while so yes 110% in agreement there.

    I do like the bl5Surprise

  • 09-05-2009 3:25 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    • South West, UK
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    It's all-too-easy to get the software wrong if you aren't a software-orientated company. Luckily Apple are (as an example). Although they've always produced computers, they've always produced their OS, too.

    I've found with the company I work for is that it takes *AGES* to get our external programmers to do anything. If B&O are using external people to do their work, then it's going to be a slow slow process. It's very difficult trying to build the hardware and the software, particularly if the software people aren't internal.

    I don't think it will get any better. B&O have been cutting staff and their dev teams, not building them. I once read a quote from Apple saying they *increased* R&D spend in bad times, putting behind money in the good times to finance this increased spend. They claimed they were then in pole position coming out of those bad times, to excel beyond your competitors.

    I don't have much faith in B&O. Over the last year or so, they seem to think the way forward is to increase their prices so much, that they only appeal to rich 'dumb' people who don't question the lack of features or connect stuff that causes sw crashes.

  • 09-05-2009 3:35 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Is B&O falling behind? Hardly. 

    The retail consumer has dried up and blown away. What started with the iPod almost 10 years ago was finished by the economic hammer fall of the past year. Luxury retail is for handbags and wristwatches now. This means that Bang & Olufsen's innovations are less evident to the retail client than they were in the 60's through the 90's. If you are looking for a 40" LCD television we are nearly a preposterous choice. If you are looking to outfit a 25,000 square foot home with several dedication video zones, shared audio & video sources across all platforms, full control of lighting, windows, entryway, climate, and closed circuit surveillance, we are the most potent and cost effective option on the market. 

    Search for the Beo 5 on these forums and you'll find people either puzzled by it or trying to get it to control their Sony or something. There's almost no mention of the ML Gateway, but these two products (and now the BeoSound 5 these past few months) has driven hundreds of thousands of dollars in business for my shops because they allow me to compete in a market place where Bang & Olufsen had always been an unwelcome intrusion. I don't require Crestron or AMX and their concomitant hardware and programming fees. If you think $15,000 is a lot to pay for a television, just wait until you've paid someone $15,000 to make a $1,700 television work. Sound ridiculous? Welcome to residential systems. Welcome to the world of custom AV. Do you think you need an $8,000 refrigerator to keep diet soda cold? No, but there's a Sub Zero sitting in every house I work in. That's the way of the world. So when I tell someone they can have a BeoVision 7 & a Lutron Grafik Eye in their bedroom with full touchscreen remote control for 15% less than the same setup with Crestron controlling an LG screen, I get a signature on a dotted line.

    Now I'll debate you all day on the individual merits of each product. With very few exceptions, the real life performance of our products is absolutely the top of the industry or at least the best for the money. But I'll go get a scotch while those arguments play out. Or maybe I'll watch the 355f v. Razlaw reach 14 pages. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 09-05-2009 3:51 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    TripEnglish:

    Is B&O falling behind? Hardly. 

    The retail consumer has dried up and blown away.

    Depends where you are Trip. In places such as London and Bath, sales in many places are UP this year. The large 'Kitchen Shop' told me last week that this is their best year in 20 years. A menswear store in town said their sales are up 5% compared to 2008, so far. London is booming due to all the tourists (British Pound is poor, so makes retail in the UK good value for those outside the country).

    When you talk about custom AV Trip, you sound like your on a constant sales mission - as if you're trying to convince us that B&Os entire future is i this direction. Maybe so, but you're still selling to those rich and dumb people I mentioned above! You're just selling a few rich and dumb people, a LOT of kit.

    How many people have a 25,000 square foot home? Ever been to the UK Trip? Most people live in apartments across Europe.

  • 09-05-2009 4:32 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Yes, but if B&O aim at this market, they will leave behind their core customer. Remember that the US is a fairly small part of the B&O market and B&O is a very small fish in a big pond. The German, UK and Danish markets are the biggest by a fair margin but have taken a big hit with the home market. The US market also shrank a lot. I don't think this market alone will keep B&O afloat.

  • 09-05-2009 5:35 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    It is true that B&O is not leading edge in television products.  For me it's more about the music systems and of course style.  In the past few months I acquired the Beosound 5 and a pair of Beolab 9's.  All the music on the Beosound 5 is lossless and sounds wonderful.  I agree Beosound 5 can be a little tricky and works better with a Windows computer.  I figured that after spending over $6000 plus tax, I could spend $500 for an inexpensive ASUS laptop for ripping CD's.  I am a longtime Mac user but with Beoconnect, you can't get the features that are in Beoplayer.

    I will ultimately get a B&O TV but I am going to wait a little longer.

    Trip is mostly correct about high end installation costs of home audio systems except it is indeed changing.  There are a significant number of McMansions (oversized homes) that are now selling for half price in the US.  I expect there are many B&O customers in the EU who also want a high end installation in their homes.  The Beolounge on the B&O website does not look very small or inexpensive.

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 09-05-2009 5:37 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Frankly, I think Trip's post was the most persuasive argument that B&o is indeed NOT starting to fall behind! Clearly, they have already fallen!

    At this rate, I may never set foot in another B&o shop, at least in the states... if there are to be any left!

    Remember the days when you could walk in and out with the latest and greatest like a kid in a candy store? Get home, unbox it, plug it in, and it just worked! Christmas is over.

    Bangedup & Oldstuff for me, thanks.

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 09-05-2009 5:56 PM In reply to

    • ed7
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 12-06-2007
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    burantek:

    Frankly, I think Trip's post was the most persuasive argument that B&o is indeed NOT starting to fall behind! Clearly, they have already fallen!

    At this rate, I may never set foot in another B&o shop, at least in the states... if there are to be any left!

    Remember the days when you could walk in and out with the latest and greatest like a kid in a candy store? Get home, unbox it, plug it in, and it just worked! Christmas is over.

    Bangedup & Oldstuff for me, thanks.

     

    Another satisfied customer!!Sad

  • 09-05-2009 6:20 PM In reply to

    • Evan
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I think that B&O's "fall behind" should have been expected. I say this because B&O doesn't manufacture a product in large enough volume to be able to spread out their developement costs across the production numbers well enough to stay competitive. Especially in the market where mainstream competitors produce products that are becoming more and more recyclable, cellphones for instance.

    Evan

     

  • 09-05-2009 6:22 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    burantek:

    Frankly, I think Trip's post was the most persuasive argument that B&o is indeed NOT starting to fall behind! Clearly, they have already fallen!

    At this rate, I may never set foot in another B&o shop, at least in the states... if there are to be any left!

    Remember the days when you could walk in and out with the latest and greatest like a kid in a candy store? Get home, unbox it, plug it in, and it just worked! Christmas is over.

    Bangedup & Oldstuff for me, thanks.

    You've still got the Apple Store! 

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 09-05-2009 6:28 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    TripEnglish:
    You've still got the Apple Store! 

    Smartest thing you've said! Wink

    And good point! B&o today reminds me of the old Apple-Scully days. A sinking ship in need of a port.

    And yes, deep down, I truly hope they find it, or B&o as we know it = gone. Matsushita & Olufsen anyone? Sad

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 09-05-2009 7:01 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Does anyone remember the Norwegian hi fi company Tandberg? They made radios and hi-fi systems in the 60's and 70's very like B&O.

    They don't seem to make Hi Fi any longer: they now seem to focus on software, communications and tele-conferencing. In other words, they are now lost to the individual purchaser. There must be a risk that B&O will move towards the world that Trip inhabits of large scale house & cabling systems, and like Tandberg becomes a comms systems company rather than the producer of desirable AV equipment. Maybe we all expect too much from B&O. If their individualistic products are perceived as being dated as soon as they are marketed, and just too expensive, then maybe they cannot survive in their present form.

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 09-05-2009 7:13 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Hello All

    Some interesting arguments. Some more persuasive than others.

    I suspect many of us will never be able to keep pace with technology, let alone our wallets.

    I dont believe I am either rich or dumb, but have many B&O products in my home.

    Why do i buy B&O-

    a. Design

    b. Excellent audio performance (this is the most important issue for me)

    c. Ease of use and integration- one remote and beolink functionality.

    d. Generally excellent after sales advice (how many times will your local hi fi shop or Department call welcome you after your fifth stupid question). My local B&O store know me and my partner by name- invite us for drinks occasionally. They provide good advice.

    My B&O products dont have all the latest technology- do I really always need the latest technology. Sure my new BV8 40 doesnt have 600 hz- do I need it, will I ever need it? Doubt it. Newer technology doesn't always mean better quality or functionality.

    Do I have wires and complicated set ups..no. One remote.

    This is what keeps me coming back... 

    My only gripe.... BLOODY BEOPORT!!!!!!!! Someone please fix the mac/itunes problem.

     

    David Coyne

    BV8-40, BC6-26, BC2, Beolab 9's, Beogram 7000, Beogram 9500, Beoport, Beotalk 1200, Beocom 6000, Beolit 1000, 800, 700, 600, 400

  • 09-05-2009 8:36 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    moxxey:

    TripEnglish:

    Is B&O falling behind? Hardly. 

    The retail consumer has dried up and blown away.

    Depends where you are Trip. In places such as London and Bath, sales in many places are UP this year. The large 'Kitchen Shop' told me last week that this is their best year in 20 years. A menswear store in town said their sales are up 5% compared to 2008, so far. London is booming due to all the tourists (British Pound is poor, so makes retail in the UK good value for those outside the country).

    When you talk about custom AV Trip, you sound like your on a constant sales mission - as if you're trying to convince us that B&Os entire future is i this direction. Maybe so, but you're still selling to those rich and dumb people I mentioned above! You're just selling a few rich and dumb people, a LOT of kit.

    How many people have a 25,000 square foot home? Ever been to the UK Trip? Most people live in apartments across Europe.

    I'm interested to meet one of these "rich dumb people." You'll have to introduce me to a few.

    As for the future of the brand, well it's probably as winding a road as its past has been. The point I'm making is that here and now this is what works and we happen to have a product mix that's ideally suited to our market. 5 years from now I'm sure the market will be different. Who knows how. Maybe there'll be an ice age and we'll be up a creek because our amps don't create enough heat!

    As I've said before I'm mostly ambivalent as to the "ethics" of selling to the wealthy rather than to the aspirational. Both have their perks. But right now it seems that the aspirational client needs to find their footing and probably wouldn't be in the market for my products even if I cut the price in half.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 09-05-2009 8:43 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Peter :

    Yes, but if B&O aim at this market, they will leave behind their core customer. Remember that the US is a fairly small part of the B&O market and B&O is a very small fish in a big pond. The German, UK and Danish markets are the biggest by a fair margin but have taken a big hit with the home market. The US market also shrank a lot. I don't think this market alone will keep B&O afloat.

    Peter, I think it's understood that B&O US problems are a totally different bag of hammers than B&O Europe's problems. Not to speak ill of my fellow colonists, but we're a more rugged breed and have a different native appreciation for certain luxuries. Perhaps you've seen our trucks? 

    And Moxxey, 25,000 square feet is a state of mind!

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 09-06-2009 3:59 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    david coyne:

    Do I have wires and complicated set ups..no. One remote.

    You are kidding David? There are more wires behind my BV7-40 than anything I've ever seen. In fact, I had to buy a separate BS3 cabinet to hide as many as possible.

    Also, I have had tons of engineer visits to get my BV7-40 and BV8 (another room) talking properly and the audio is still out-of-sync. If that's not complicated, what is?

    Sure, one of the best elements of the kit is that it *does* connect and interact. But it doesn't do this well either. It's all well and good you saying that you don't need the latest features, but the connection between TVs (ie BV7-40 and BV8) is through an ancient analogue system which results is a fairly poor picture on the other TV.

    There are many things that B&O used to do very well - and still do - but the old components and ideas have long been superseded by higher quality audio, video and so on....which B&O do not support. The lack of DTS HD support on their own Blu-ray player is a classic. Yet they want £1000 for this 'upgrade'.

  • 09-06-2009 4:04 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
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    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    TripEnglish:

    but we're a more rugged breed and have a different native appreciation for certain luxuries. Perhaps you've seen our trucks? 

    Is that why ALL the luxury brands come from Europe, Trip? Think clothes, watches, handbags, AV kit, cars.

    Americans produce some good kit, but it's very low-end consumer and mass-market.

    I'm glad you're doing well with custom installations, and I'm sure these will continue and increase (my local store does quite a few down here in Bath), but B&O can't mass-produce kit for a few expensive installations here and there. There are certain economies of scale that B&O need to meet to make their operation viable, long-term.

     

  • 09-06-2009 4:09 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    burantek:

    TripEnglish:
    You've still got the Apple Store! 

    Smartest thing you've said! Wink

    And good point! B&o today reminds me of the old Apple-Scully days. A sinking ship in need of a port.

    And yes, deep down, I truly hope they find it, or B&o as we know it = gone. Matsushita & Olufsen anyone? Sad

    "Bangedup & Oldstuff for me, thanks" sadly but true ...

    They need only one man ! And this man is Steve Jobs Wink

     

    when your Black Label begin to taste like juice just take shot or two of Absinthe and after that quench with some vodka, if you still feel juice like take beer with grappa !

  • 09-06-2009 4:43 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    my local branch recently closed it's lovely new shop and amalgamated with another one in another area , and that's after it had already moved from it's original site just 6 months earlier at huge cost

    i really do think these are dire times for bno in 'the real world'

     

    it's the products , they're over priced and under achievers and in these credit crunch times people just don't have the money to spend on such fripperies

    popgear is grate™

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