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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 10-12-2009 2:23 PM by danezro. 91 replies.
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  • 09-06-2009 5:24 AM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I disagree that BL9 and BL5 is ugly. I personally think their design is ahead of their time

    The rest are quite realistic points, lets face it.
    >Trip you're biased Laughing

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 09-06-2009 6:29 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    TripEnglish:

    I'm interested to meet one of these "rich dumb people." You'll have to introduce me to a few.

    You're a funny bloke Trip. Pretty much *everyone* knows that the average B&O customer is between 45-65, tends to not have a technical background, has a higher than average disposable income and wants 'someone to do it all for them'. This is where the 'rich dumb people' comes from. They are not 'dumb' in terms of knowledge and experience, but are when it comes to AV kit, computers and how to set everything up.

    There are quite a few people in Bath like this. They don't care about LCD v plasma, 1080P or walking in to their local Currys. They want a few TVs, to listen to their CDs, everything connected together and for someone to set it all up for them, maintain and keep it a long time. They buy B&O simply as it a) ticks all those boxes, b) looks good and c) is the right mix for their dinner party conversations.

    Most of B&O customers are NOT on this board. Only the techy people are here. The average B&O customer does not come on Beoworld, unfortunately.

     

  • 09-06-2009 7:41 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    LOL @ c)

    You are so right! Its time I had a dinner party. You're all invited!

    Simon.

  • 09-06-2009 7:57 AM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Moderator - UK
    • Posts 5,223
    • Founder

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    moxxey:

    Most of B&O customers are NOT on this board. Only the techy people are here. The average B&O customer does not come on Beoworld, unfortunately.

    But how many people just read and don't post?  If you look at people viewing, it always heavily outnumbers the registered people..

    I disagree that only the 'techy' people come on here, and i think if we added up over the membership our entire spend we would be astonished.  Add that to our potential spend, then the potential spend of people that come on here to do a bit of research through web results and i think we really do make a difference.

    I'm not saying we're important, but we're not exactly unimportant either.

    Lee

     

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 09-06-2009 8:32 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    9 LEE:

    I disagree that only the 'techy' people come on here

    Absolutely, of course you can disagree. However, if you look at the circulation of our top consumer PC title, it sells around 175,000 copies. However, we have 25,000 registered users and less than 2,000 active users. Very similar situation. If all 25,000 registered users posted on our forums, we'd be absolutely inundated. The forum is still a key part of the magazine readership and an important element for our advertisers etc.

    Anyway, the point is still valid Lee - the average B&O customer is still within the age group described, still is not so tech literate and wants someone to do it all for them.

    Besides, a lot of British people with (new) money are snobs and this is why a lot of these people bought B&O. They don't understand 1080p, HD or even digital. However, by buying B&O - and spending the money - they feel that they've bought 'the best', assuming it does have all the latest features. This was maybe true in the Avant days, but less so now. As the B&O audience becomes more tech savvy (most people under 40 use and understand computers), they are also becoming away that B&O != 'the best', in all circumstances.

  • 09-06-2009 8:37 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    The difference now is the internet. Most people are now connected especially if they are investing in products like the Beosound 5. It is very easy to simply enter 'Beosound 5' or 'B&O' into Google and you will soon find your way to BeoWorld. You may well not post, but you can read. It is how I found beocentral and the first Beoworld. And as can be seen from my posts, I am not techy at all! Big Smile Proud possessor of 10 thumbs!

  • 09-06-2009 8:59 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    moxxey:

    TripEnglish:

    I'm interested to meet one of these "rich dumb people." You'll have to introduce me to a few.

    You're a funny bloke Trip. Pretty much *everyone* knows that the average B&O customer is between 45-65, tends to not have a technical background, has a higher than average disposable income and wants 'someone to do it all for them'. This is where the 'rich dumb people' comes from. They are not 'dumb' in terms of knowledge and experience, but are when it comes to AV kit, computers and how to set everything up.

    There are quite a few people in Bath like this. They don't care about LCD v plasma, 1080P or walking in to their local Currys. They want a few TVs, to listen to their CDs, everything connected together and for someone to set it all up for them, maintain and keep it a long time. They buy B&O simply as it a) ticks all those boxes, b) looks good and c) is the right mix for their dinner party conversations.

    Most of B&O customers are NOT on this board. Only the techy people are here. The average B&O customer does not come on Beoworld, unfortunately.

     

    That may very well be and some of my clients certainly fall into this category, but most of your information is well off base. We absolutely do not need to gain greater market share and produce more BeoWidgets to survive. Quite the opposite. Torben agreed with you and nearly obliterated the company. I'm surprised we didn't go back to electric shavers! Now he's gone. The product line has been coming rapidly into focus and financial health is returning. 

    Again (and again and again) I'm ambivalent to the "class" of my client, but retail customers have presented themselves as a lost cause. I go to where the money is and so does my brand. Why build an inferior product for an ungrateful customer? I'm sure the market will calm down and in future years we'll reunite with retail customers when they feel a little more confident in making investments in goodies like TVs and such, but right now the deal is king. I have respect for that and to some extent it was the overextension of retail dollars that landed us in this mess.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 09-06-2009 9:44 AM In reply to

    • symmes
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-21-2007
    • Freedonia
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Talk about a thread whose cousin had been comfortably hidden under a rock for a few weeks....

  • 09-06-2009 9:49 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    • Joined on 04-14-2007
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    symmes:

    Talk about a thread whose cousin had been comfortably hidden under a rock for a few weeks....

    And?

    I think this forum is very polite and managed efficiently. Look at any football forum and there are ten threads about the same topic, on one page. That happens often. Very often.

    The fact that a thread - any thread - rears it's head again, is neither or there. That's a discussion for you. If you feel uncomfortable reading something, just don't follow the thread!

  • 09-06-2009 10:06 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I agree with all statements mentioned by devilla.

    I am p.e. interested in a BV 7 with integrated Twin-HD-Tuner and hard disk for recording HD-program while watching another, also with a working CI+-slot. I don´t like to use an external settop-box when I spent so much money for a television. No problem to get such a TV from Loewe or Technisat but NOT from B&O!

    Regards from Germany

    Räuber

     

     

     

  • 09-06-2009 11:21 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    It is very true what you say.
    and i have the same problem with beovision  9 not want stb with ugly menus and graphics .
    hdr2 ,not think I used more than ten times last year.

    Sincerely Claudiu
  • 09-06-2009 11:52 AM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    They have not fallen behind - they gave up the race... and a very long time ago.

    Sure there will also be an interest in niche products - which is what B&O is and always will be.

    The entire planet is moving towards seamless integration, digital music, and a resurgence of high-end analog.

    Where is B&O in ANY of this????

    Even if you ignore the price structure with is always a hot topic on this forum (for obvious reasons) - the ongoing insistence off all or nothing in doomed to failure.

    Sure, iPod/tunes/phone/store - love or hate it, it is the dominant system in the entire Universe and everything is playing catch-up in terms of accessories, technology, distribution models, etc - but B&O is thumbing their nose at the way the entire world is going.

     

    Just bought an AppleTV (for wireless distribution of music, video on demand, etc) - a neat feature is that instead of requiring a universal remote or forcing you to stick with the Apple supplied remote - you can use unused keys on any remote and the AppleTV can learn and map those codes to it's own features - of course since B&O remotes use a different frequency then the rest of the planet, it does not work.  Fine arguments in any directions - but how about coming up with an adapter, some black box, something that says "we want to play with the rest of the world".

    I have had so many gripes over the years with the lack of usability that I am moving away from B&O - as mentioned in a previous post, I am looking towards a completely different music system - something with multiple input/outputs, integration, accessories for when I want something new, and at least a dealer network that works (now upto 3 months on the replacement pads for my Form headphones?????  Last time I called my local dealer, again told they are coming from Denmark, and I asked about the Beosystem 5 - another system that no one understands, is barely usable, not wireless, no upgrade paths or options - take it or leave it.... so I left it..... so far very happy with my AppleTV).  Maybe that is why Apple stock is thru the roof in the past couple of years - and unfazed by the financial end of the world.  They get it.

    The ideas and "free" advice that are offered on this forum would be invaluable to any struggling company - but we are completely ignored.  

    Sure if you want to build a business on 100 inch plasmas then go for it

    But in my line of work it is called denial of reality.

    So a few ideas:

    1)  Build some "boxes" that allow integration with the rest of the world (give me a box to plug my ipod/tv/etc into my system without having to buy some cheap manual box from Radio Shack).  Not that hard and does not have to be that expensive.

    2)  Have some decent wireless options

    3)  Release some analog technology - how about dusting off the blue prints on some of the old state of the art turntables.

       Heck, I would buy one and I dont even have any records.

    4)  Something that allows me to use my Beo4 or Beo5 with other brands

     (dont force me to some third party vendor for a duct tape solution)

    5)  Give me something to buy for when I am in the mood to buy something new and interesting, but dont want to spend my entire paycheck.

      Like some cool useless gizmo - or heaven forbid something cool and useful??

      Just something new to play with (and dont promise me that it will be available by Christmas and make think or ask - "of which year?"

     

    These ideas do not have to dilute the brand - maybe just make your existing customers a little more happy and exciting about stick with B&O.

     

    again - denial of reality.  Even people who burn money to keep warm will have some expectations.......

     

    ..... still looking at McIntosh stuff - way cool!

    .... and NO ONE has given me any convincing arguments why I should continue to invest time and money in B&O.

    .... and if I could get a decent price for my system - it would be out in a heartbeat......... (and thoughts on where I can find a list of prices for used equipment)

     

    maybe my thoughts and experiences are a typical response from an American - and I am sure if I had a store like Lee's down the street I would feel differently - but living in the middle of the U.S.A. the playground is a little different.

     

     

    -michael

     

     

     

     

  • 09-06-2009 12:30 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    mfirst:
    again - denial of reality.  Even people who burn money to keep warm will have some expectations.......

    Amen, brother Michael!

    Now, call me an old fuddy-duddy having retired from the business world in 1999, but I see no logic in the concept that B&o (specifically, at the store level) is going to survive via Trip's model of high end installations.

    As eloquently as he tries to express it... a pig is a pig. Let's be realistic for a moment... a small shop has what 3 - 5??? high end installs a year @ what? 50-100k???... there is the butter that keeps the lights on in the shop. But, where is the bread... The 1000+ sales a year @ <=10k? The sales would be there if the product was meeting the consumer's demands (savages as we may be in the USA, apparently). That is the point, IMHO, not the class (or lack thereof) of the clientele for heaven's sake! Realize (as biased as one may be) that the problem is the widget, not the consumer. Remember the customer is always right, no matter what their shoe selection. Otherwise, elegantly turn off the lights, shut it down, and go sell shoes now! ...before you have no choice, I predict, in less than a year.

     

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 09-06-2009 12:45 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    There are consumers that want to buy - there always will be - but there MUST be something to buy.

    Take a look at the new BeoTime - and granted I have yet to actually touch one and sure it looks typical B&O cool

    But, does it have any use?

    Can you read the time in the dark? (can you read it in the light?)

    It is something that you will rely on for that critical business meeting a 630am?

    ... or will it be just another "coffee book" type thing that has no practical real-world use (particularly for those who can afford one)

    I have a Nakamichi clock radio that has worded flawlessly for >20 years! and still going strong.

    Sure some of this is cool and maybe they will sell a bunch in the first year - but beyond that, how many are they going to sell?

    How many B&O cell phones are sold 1 year after they get released?  (probably not many, since they are out of date the minute they are released)

     

    Who at B&O comes up with this stuff?

     

    I also wonder how many of those custom 100k installs have repeat customers or if there is any brand loyalty.  How much buyers remorse when the owners finally realize how limited and out-dated their "cool looking stuff" really is..... particularly if they have to wait months for the little things like a custom cable, plug, adapter, or pads (can you sense my sour grapes)

    -michael

     

  • 09-06-2009 1:19 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    mfirst:

    Who at B&O comes up with this stuff?

    I don't worry too much about who comes up with it, I worry about the man behind the: "YES!, this is great." sitting on the cheque book.

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 09-06-2009 1:27 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Actually the BeoTime is a definite return to form! Very tactile, easy to use and a total joy. More like this please!

  • 09-06-2009 1:35 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    >>How much buyers remorse when the owners finally realize how limited and out-dated their "cool looking stuff" really is<<

    For some, the limitations don't matter. I still play my CDs and watch DVDs. I am less bothered by what others may perceive as shitty picture quality then by cheap plastics and multiple remotes or cables all over the place (the later I live with as I can't justify a custom install just yet).

    The custom install market is certainly something where B&O can easily compete, with a Loewe not so much I guess. There is a price for materials used and design and I don't think it's in the cards that they go head on head with Loewe. You can't turn a company on a dime without investing and I don't see that they have the funds to do that.

    What annoys me the most right now is, that simplicity is gone. The BS5 for examples supports more audio formats then it needs, yet most of them incomplete - gapless playing for DJ mixes, concerts and classic music anyone? Right, just works from Windows even though they "support" macs. Too many ifs and thens or my taste. 

     

     

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 09-06-2009 1:54 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

     

    This thread is real interesting but the reality is that we have discussed this to death.  However I have a few more thoughts.

     

    Things are changing fast which is partly technological and partly the financial crisis.  B&O is struggling to figure out where to invest its resources to come up with a product line that pleases it’s intended market.  They have made a few mistakes but generally are doing well enough I believe that they will be even better after the recession.  Got to be optimistic here!

    One of the problems in this forum is B&O is always compared to Apple.  I guess that’s okay but remember Apple’s capitalization is 300 times larger than B&O at about $254 billion dollars.  B&O introduces maybe 2 or 3 new products every year with at lot less resources.  Yes,  Apple is very cool but it is unfair to compare B&O to Apple.  I love Apple products and have iPods and AppleTV.  However I still purchased a Beosound 5 which is very different.  I have no problem maintaining 2 music libraries....iTunes and BS5. 

    Apple does not manufacture anything is it’s home country and they manage their money in tax free Nevada.  B&O manufactures mostly in their home country and in other parts of the EU.  They pay much higher taxes.  Which company is a better corporate citizen?  If this doesn’t matter then B&O can do just like Apple.....have a few brainy workers design products in their home country and manufacture everything in China.  Prices would surely drop.  I have always been a little chagrined when opening a new Apple product and the first thing I see is ‘Designed in California’.  I am never really sure what that means.  I should also point out that Apple made a speaker for the iPod which Steve Jobs declared was the best ever.  It has since been withdrawn from the market.

    I would take exception to Trip’s remark that B&O does not have to improve market share to be successful.  Of course they need to increase market share.  That’s why B&O is selling automotive systems, opening stores in China and Russia, and making alarm clocks.  I am looking forward to the Beotime release .  Until recently, I would never have thought of buying a $400 alarm clock much less any alarm clock.  My iPhone has been my alarm clock.  I think Beotime is going to be a clever product that should sell very well.  If you can’t afford the Aston, you can always buy the alarm clock.

    Mfirst (Michael),  I think I understand your frustration.  You are moving in the direction of Mcintosh labs which is very different than B&O.  I have looked at Mcintosh labs and was very impressed with their music server, the MS 750.  It has a larger disk and an inbuilt CD player/burner which maybe B&O should have included in the Beosound 5.  The MS 750 also plays FLAC lossless files and sounds wonderful.  However I couldn’t get over the external design of Mcinstosh labs.  To me its a circa 1960s design with a lot of blue lighted meters.  You might want to check this website for more information on the owners of McIntosh labs. http://www.dm-holdings.com/eng/

     

     

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 09-06-2009 2:00 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Buy B&O products second-hand ... then you get value for money and don't have to worry too much about what you don't get brand new. That's my philosophy. I won't ever be buying a new B&O TV again.

    Simon.

  • 09-06-2009 2:26 PM In reply to

    • ed7
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 12-06-2007
    • uk
    • Posts 297
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    I can see some sense in that ,but how can you buy 2-5 years old tv set £3.5-£7k when their current  set is already  outdated by miles

  • 09-06-2009 2:36 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    ... interesting. I am glad I am not alone in this.

     

    I see a lot of B&O fans that have been let down. I can safely say that most here would love to see B&O at the top.

     

    I am really ignorant about B&O internal structure but it almost looks like the are a three man show. Not many new ideas and userfriendliness seems a thing soon to be forgotten. Sader is the fact that realativelly "little" would make most of their products, especially the TVs, be actually worth the price. A built in AppleTV in their all their TVs coupled with an internal HardDisk recorder would put all the BeoVisions back on top. I am sure that something could be worked out between Apple and B&O. They still have a name and cross-marketing would be great for Apple stating that "Now all B&O TVs come with built-in Apple TV". If Apple is not interested than talk to Amazon and do your own interface. Too bad there is a lack of "vision" here...

     

    As for the rest of the products only a little common sense would also improve on all items. As somebody mentioned before; The BeoSound 5 is a mediocre piece of kit. Just add Wifi, 2 Tb. and a built in Movie pay/download internet service and you would have a bomb!

    Thanks for all your replies.

     

    D.

     

     

     

  • 09-06-2009 2:54 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    The_Beonic_Man:

    Buy B&O products second-hand ... then you get value for money and don't have to worry too much about what you don't get brand new. That's my philosophy. I won't ever be buying a new B&O TV again.

    Very true - the BL9s and BL5s are very underpriced, second hand. BL5s for £7500? Bizarre. They always sell quickly, too, which implies the price could be higher!

    I suppose a MKIII for around £5500 would be a good buy - you'd get the 7.2 and stand with that, too. You can always keep those and upgrade the panel, later, when a MKV comes on-sale :)

  • 09-06-2009 3:11 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    What I find absurd in the electronics market is the latest and greatest is always just a few months from being obsolete.  Too many people are getting hung up on the latest and greatest gadget be it plasma vs lcd, vs DVI, vs HDMI VS progressive scan vs component, vs S-video, vs composite,  vs VHS, vs laser disc, vs DVD, vs blue ray and on and on blah, blah blah,  Too many fall victim to technology claims which are only marketing to minor improvements and of no substance to life in general.  In my humble opinion people need to slow down. Many have allowed technology to rule their lives.  Face it,  nothing will be totally integrated with everything let alone most products EVER!  Apple enthusiasts people complain too!  Don't be marketing foolish in the "I must have the latest and greatest new crap.  I've been there and I am done with it and I must say  am much happier for it.

    B&O is not "in-line" with the latest throw away product that  too many seem willing to accept and pay for over and over again.  I am embarrassed to admit to all the stuff I purchased over the years that was the latest and greatest technology that I paid top dollar for just two years ago which is now sitting in a box that no one wants anymore and I can't give a way None of my B&O is boxed up waiting to be tossed and it's over ten years old.  If you are in that constant  trash all I have and buy new"upgrade-itis"position don't blame B&O.  Think about what your spending on products only to throw it away on the next thing or gadget claiming to be the "must have" and think about the last time you heard the same line.  Oh and I doubt their new products will work with their old products either. 

  • 09-06-2009 3:17 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    R Patton:

    What I find absurd in the electronics market is the latest and greatest is always just a few months from being obsolete.  Too many people..

    Yeah, but to be fair, B&O were selling TVs without HDMI up until fairly recently. I know you say 'months', but they were years behind in this example.

    My concern isn't with the 'latest and greatest' features. I don't think that many people are demanding OLED before Samsung. It would be just good if they can improve *their* own technologies - such as digital masterlink and being able to distribute a digital TV signal around your home. Again, these aren't months out of date, they are years out of date....yet they are their own technologies.

    See?

  • 09-06-2009 3:19 PM In reply to

    Re: B & O starting to fall behind?

    Agree with this - but I still have CRTs which produce very nice pictures. I am not about to buy a new B&O TV or the BS5 when they don't work with the technology they are designed to use. TVs with only one digital tuner and no recording medium or digital music players which simply don't do what they should will always be useless - even in ten years time. A poor product now will always be a poor product - a good product will always be good.

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