Do you think B&O have made a big mistake with BeoSound5? It is selling very bad.

What could be a reason? Is it that the product is not very easy to use for those who do not know a lot about computers and there are a lot of such reach people that are  B&O buyers?  Could the unit be cheaper when they would forget BeoMaster 5 and allow BeoSound 5 a direct PC connection? Nowdays computers have a lot of HD space.

Or do you thinh time for BeoSound 5 will come in a few days and the unit will be sold more?

Yes, it's too complicated to "easily" download music and alblum covers (ala BeoMedia).

Look, the demographic that "buys' B&O, for the large part, hasn't come to grips with "ripping" their music, storing and accessing it. Combine this with B&O's minimalist instructions and after sales support, and no wonder people were disechanted with BeoMedia. Hey, all my friends think I'm *very* computer literate. Yet, I'm working on my on Beomdeia for over a year and have yet to fully understand how to use it, I don't blame the software, I blame the "instructions and support" available with and after the product.  I really would like to take classes on it, but even my dealer says "I really don't understand/use Beomedia"

Sheesh!

Barry

avus17:

What could be a reason?

Having owned a Beosound 5 (and now regretting the decision) for the last couple of months, I'd say the two key problems are:

1) You can't easily choose an album or particular track, from your armchair, using the Beo4. You have to get up, go to the Beosound 5, choose the album manually etc. Absolutely criminal decision from B&O. You can find and select photos from your Beo4, but not your audio tracks! Yes, I know this facility is coming, but where are we all beta-testers for B&O products these days?

2) It doesn't really do anything apart from storing and playing digital music. It should have been an all-in-one complete media solution and B&O should have bought one of the many opensource media servers on the market and simply used this to control your content, via your TV.

Although I guess many of B&Os customers do not want much functionality, Sonos have proved they can make a successful business from their solution and that doesn't come cheap.

One word i think should become a B&O mantra.

Simplicity

Beautiful design, and ease of use.  It's what makes me buy things. Apple products may be plastic on the whole, but they look cool and work better than anything i have ever experienced in my life.  I used to get so annoyed with people banging on about Apple as i was a dyed-in-the-wool PC/Windows user. However, you just can't ignore what they do.

B&O?....  I'm going to generalise here, which is the best you can do when trying to reach a large audience..

People with money to buy B&O are busy. People with money to buy B&O don't have time to read instruction manuals six times over and telephone their dealer on a daily basis for help.

People with money to buy B&O want to be able to plug a product in and learn how to use it - quickly.  They appreciate the beautiful design for sure, as well as the beautiful materials and feel of the product.  And finally, 'no' is not an acceptable answer when they ask if the unit can do something basic.  A lot of clever people work at B&O, but how they can miss so many monumental things is beyond me.

If they didn't have the software to do it properly, they should have hastily ditched the developers and made it a glorified BeoSound 3200 / BeoSound4 hybrid just to get it on the market (it was in development for years!).  An optional upgrade path could then have been developed to incorporate the system we see today, but a finished version as opposed to the half-attempt we are experiencing.

Looking on the positive side, one day B&O may actually use us a sounding board for new concepts.  We can live in hope.

Lee

 

9 LEE:

If they didn't have the software to do it properly, they should have hastily ditched the developers and made it a glorified BeoSound 3200 / BeoSound4 hybrid just to get it on the market (it was in development for years!).  An optional upgrade path could then have been developed to incorporate the system we see today, but a finished version as opposed to the half-attempt we are experiencing. 

totally agree - a beosound 3200/beosound 4 hybrid would be perfect and low cost to develop.  what i'm dumbfounded with is that the beosound 4 can do multisource but doesn't have a hard-drive (the SD card can only hold so much) and the beosound 3200 can't do multisource!  what a simple way it would have been to stimulate new sales!

I think the amazing thing about the BS5/BM5 combo is that most folk spotted the flaws in the basic concept immendiately it was announced.

Surely they didn't escape the brains in "idealand" or whatever its called.

(battens down hatches to withstand the BS5 supporters brigade)

Fully agree with the arguments here: It lacks core multi media functionality and what it does, it does it to complicated. Even if we have stressed the Apple example so often, but it is the benchmark these days: take a AppleTV and an iPod Touch for a 10th of the cost and tell me which one works better...

From my experience working in the IT industry for the last 15 years, one main reason for these types of products could be the isolated location of Struer in any regard. The opposite is the silicon valley where I have spent some time. The ideas and products most of the small and new companies are so crazy and feature rich and hard to deal with that only real nerds can work with these gadgets. For the guys in the valley fine, for the rest of the world who are not part of the valley not usable....

So just a guess, maybe they should move form "end of the world" Struer to a more connected place to see what is going on in the real world.

Karsten

I took a look at the info on the B&O website but still couldn't really work out what the BS% does. Still not sure I understand what it's for. Maybe that accounts for the slow sales.

Well...

I too have been watching the whole BM5/BS5 platform roll out.

I have stayed away from threads since the launch to frankly see if it panned out. I had no intent of ever buying one as I am a staunch fanatic of Apple/Itunes/Airport Express/Touch. I know a lot of people here invested a great deal of money, time, and effort in the new platform and except for a handful of them, there seems to be more problems than satisfaction.

All of us here want to see B&o thrive and I do not intend to come off as: "I told you so..." rather, I think that the BS5 could still be a great thing! So, and to my point...

I look back at say a BM4400: all features were right in front of you, clearly labeled. It was a giant mechanical monster that frankly is still relevant today! Then on to the BM2400: much simpler interface, but also well put together... and still does today exactly what it was supposed to do 25 years ago!

FFWD to the BS5: B&o attempted to create a competitive platform for current home audio desires. Their design and styling department seemingly fit the bill. Most people seem to like the looks and feel of the platform. It has a tactile quality that Apple, etc... lack. There is a sense of quality and solidity and ease of use that B&o is so good at rolling out. So, what happened?

I suppose that Moore's Law came into play a bit here, and that B&o (for lots of reasons) are a bit behind the curve when it comes to software. Of course, being software-challenged is certainly something that is fixable -and would go a long way to solving issues with other products.

I am curious: Does B&o do all their own programming from conception to patching? Is it outsourced? I know that resources are limited, but they need to put their coin into their software development. Get things right there before developing any new products! If they can "commonize" their software and get it clicking, the rest comes easy for them!

I think the best solution would still be BS9000 + Beoport. If the BS9000 could read MP3 files also there would be no need for BeoPort. Only when people are up to N.Radio.

The problem isn't the product it's the software driving it.  I'm quite optimistic about the system as it can easily evolve into what it needs to be.  The big question is will this happen.  I believe that B&O wants this to happen but the question is if they can catch back up with the needs of their customers based on their existing software development structure.  

I've heard that they've revamped/updated their software development platform to move more quickly.  Does anyone know any details?

What is the BeoSound 5?

That's probably a good starting point, to understand why it's not being adopted by customers. What's the one outstanding thing it does, better than anything else on the market. There should be something, given its price and the brand that presents it.

How does one justify the investment in one, given its limitations? There should have been one, and only one path - unquestioned audiophile quality, throughout the entire signal chain, with a particular calibration for use with a second generation BeoLab 5 that natively would process high resolution files through coax spdif. (Actually very simple to do). Present BS5 as the source of excellence for B&O's acoustic lens speakers, for an unmatched audio experience, right at the edge of audiophile development.

What did we get? A very expensive iPod, without the ease of use.

Which is probably why the product is suffering. I don't think plonking B&O into the middle of Silicon Valley would have helped much - they need to realise that the pen they built around their customers with MasterLink is no longer there. And actually accept that there are vastly better solutions for integration available on the market - harmonise with those, and deliver front end excellence through speakers and screens, as well as the B&O touch to those protocols. B&O will never be able to compete with the software giants delivering solutions to the market now.

I've had my BS5/BM5 for about a month and really enjoy it.  I'm now listening to a lot more and varied music.  I use it pretty much every day (for much of the day - I normally work from home), and I haven't had any technical problems with it (touch wood).  I had a BeoPort + Mac + BM-Link for ~5 years, but this was too fiddly (it seemed every other iTunes upgrade would introduce new problems - I never knew if I was going to actually get music when I pressed N.Music).  My wife never figured it out.  I tried the iPod Touch as a remote, but that didn't move me - I don't want to pick my music - choices, choices, too many choices.  I make decisions all day at work... Surprize me with something I like.  For me, MOTS is a huge improvement over "shuffle" or "genius".  

Is the BS5 perfect?  No.  Is it too expensive?  Probably, but this is B&O.   I'm glad it only plays music - I don't have a B&O TV nor do I plan to have one in the near future.  If it did more, just think how much more they'd charge for it?   I am computer literate, but I don't think that sticking a CD into my computer and dragging an icon from one panel to the next within BeoPlayer ranks as "too difficult".  My wife and kids (10 and 12 year old) have figured it out.  Is support pitiful?  I don't know - I get everything I need right here on Beoworld

It definitely is NOT for control freaks (and I mean no disrespect with this comment) who must have things "their way".  If you need your music library to be "just so", and enjoy creating 50 song playlists and need to hear songs in an exact order, then stick with BeoPort or find some type of iPod integration.  If you have a more relaxed attitude about your music collection and playback, then BS5 may fit the bill.

Who says it is not selling well?  Do you know how many B&O planned to sell, and how far from target they are?  If they planned for it to fly off the shelves, someone was dreaming.  Has anyone noticed the world is in a recession?

Stan

I really don’t know about this BS/BM 5 thing, and it’s not only the fact that I have a 500+ CDs collection and a BS9000/BL5s to enjoy music – the old fashioned way - that does it… As a matter of fact, I recently listen more and more to the copies of those CDs and N.RADIO from our family PC around the house, and avoiding changing CDs is, of course, also more convenient during parties/ while entertaining visitors...

 

I do like BeoPort, it just fits my needs/way of listening to audio/daily routines/setup/layout of the house/local possibilities etc. I also like it’s aesthetical, simple and calm looks/controls despite many of its shortcomings. But I also understand that/why it’s not for everyone – especially, as it seems, for the Apple lovers. I agree, that technologically/integration-wise/design-wise Apple is perceived as setting the trends these days with their bundle in relation to consumers.

 

But getting back to what I started with: I still feel that despite its wheel and the MOTS it doesn’t offer me anything THAT enticing – perhaps on the contrary regarding functionality and I’m actually thinking I’ll stick for yet sometime time with what I have:

Currently, in connection with BeoPort I use one desktop PC in a linkroom and a laptop, which is, of course, connected to my wireless network and on which I work a lot. When I want to see what’s going on and/or control BeoPort somewhere in the house I just need Beo4 and, indeed, my laptop there to control my desktop PC to have (almost) full ie also visual control over the situation – the main problem with BeoPort when away from the comp on which it’s installed is thus eliminated…

 

I’d found this personally better then BeoMedia, where to have visual feedback you need to have your plasma screen on, not to mention it’s more complicated nature. Also, the price of this all is SUBSTIANTIALLY less while still “sort of” entirely B&O …

 

Unless BS/BM5’s functionality/integration somehow (but how?) improves dramatically in the future, I plan to keep it as it is, quite possibly adding another small and simple PC (they cost pennies) to my wireless network and even connecting it to ML system via a second BeoPort hardware (hiding it in my 2164 cabinet in the main room). I would at the same time connect to this extra PC a monitor that is somewhat reminiscent (silver frame) of a miniature outline of my BV5 and find a fitting place for it in the living room to enjoy BeoPort – together with other people there - even without having to bring there my laptop - or bump heads with others over an iPhone ...

 

A bit clunky with all those PCs/screens? Certainly, but many of us (besides already having a wired ML setup) can’t yet do without them anyway, so … I hear the Apple crowd screaming and, yes, to remote-control (part of) your setup from one’s iPhone is clever and sort of cute and I do like Apples design, but I guess I’m not going to make an iPhone the focal/control point of a party eg – it’s better if it’s Beo4 instead!?

 

(I know I’m clutching at straws here … )

saf:

I’m not going to make an iPhone the focal/control point of a party eg – it’s better if it’s Beo4 instead!?

I can tell you from experience... one of the funnest things we have ever done is play: "Name that tune/artist/whatever" while dancing!

Just hand the iPod Touch around the table and take turns! It invariably leads to side-splitting laughter... or maybe that is the whisky? 

 

++++EDIT+++

I failed to mention that I understand Stan's point regarding coming home and relaxing w/ MOTS! Though not the same, I often just sit back and hit RANDOM on the BS9000.

I'll say that I'm quite happy with my Beosound 5. It succeeds in the function of having an entire music collection easily accessible in a digitized storage format. However, the Beosound 5 instantly makes one aware of any defects in the tagging/metadata. If we have improperly tagged music with low-res cover art, that becomes horrifically obvious. It takes a tremendous amount of time to go back and "clean-up" our music collection. Still, I have no one to blame but myself for not managing my digital music properly in the past.

I think that what could make the Beosound 5 much more attractive would be for B&O to be pushing the concept of accessibility throughout the home ML network. I'm excited about the forthcoming link room "access points" that B&O has announced. I just hope it won't disappoint. B&O's link network capabilities have always been a great asset that could get people to take notice of B&O. However, I feel that the link room benefits have been hugely neglected when it comes to digitally-stored music collections. (Video link is sadly non-existent in the U.S.)

After using my new iPhone 3GS for a few weeks now, I can see what the future of B&O and the Beosound 5 should be: voice control. With a large collection of digitally stored music, the ability to access music by speaking the title of the track/album/artist/genre from any room in the link system would make the music collection even more accessible. The iPhone 3GS shows us that that technology is already here.

Michael:

The problem isn't the product it's the software driving it. 

100% correct.

However, the BM5 is larger than it could be - they could get that in to a smaller box, I'm sure. Unless you have a cabinet, hiding it is a right pain.

Lee - you say B&O customers are busy. True. However, they are also quite naive too (but not always in a bad way). What I mean is that the typical B&O customer is 45+ and isn't particularly tech orientated. They have more disposable income than someone at, say, 25, so they can more easily justify spending the cash and getting B&O to do the entire install.

A product that is too complicated and not yet anywhere near maturity in general product life-cycle terms. What does this thing do again?

Check out the instruction manual (on site) for the Beomaster 8000. Less is definitely more.

moxxey:

Michael:

The problem isn't the product it's the software driving it. 

100% correct.

OK, Then back to my question: "I am curious: Does B&o do all their own programming from conception to patching? Is it outsourced? I know that resources are limited, but they need to put their coin into their software development. Get things right there before developing any new products! If they can "commonize" their software and get it clicking, the rest comes easy for them!"

Does anyone know the answer? If the answer is that it is all in-house, well then they need fresh blood, or it needs to be outsourced. This is their stumbling block and has been in recent years. They need to resolve it ASAP for the sake of the BS5 and a lot of other products with issues that all seem to be software related! They are not in Kansas anymore, and the house is falling in their direction! I, as all of you, hope it doesn't land on them!

From a B&O product I want at least a few things. I can think of several more, but these will do fine for now:

 

• ease of operation
  
• beautiful design
• quality of materials and surfaces
• excellent sound (and in case of televisions also picture) quality
   

 

 

burantek:

Does anyone know the answer? If the answer is that it is all in-house, well then they need fresh blood, or it needs to be outsourced.

Well, I know all our programming is now outsourced. However, they (the programmers) get things wrong if things aren't specced correctly, so that's where things might be going wrong.

Also, it's often far easier to buy in tech or use opensource and customise (like Apple with Webkit), rather than starting from scratch. When you start from scratch - as B&O did with their BS/BM5 software - then you end up giving your customers a very basic experience and they have to wait whilst you carry on adding features. As B&O take ages to release new features, this means we have to wait months rather than weeks.

If they'd bought an existing Windows-compatible opensource media center, the could have taken the fundamentals and simply added their own custom front-end. ie. told a programming team to add a B&O-friendly user-interface.

I don't think BS5/BM5 are a mistake. The product is a genuine step by B&O to develop a platform that can grow. I own one since Feb 2009 and like it, however, I agree that link room capability or better remote control must come asap. From a quality point of view, the product is great, it feels substantial, especially as regard to BS5. 


Also I use it often in connection with N.Radio, works beautifully and is very enjoyable to link music or radio across several floors into different rooms ... for this I currently use "favorites", albeit rather limited. 

One word to MOTS. Good start, can develop. It is amazing ... suddenly you listen to tunes you have not heard for years, it really detects "hidden treasures" in your collection.

Clearly on a good path but B&O needs to take its ownerbase more seriously (we register the product with an email address) when announcing upgrades (should be with a heads up) or when asking about priorities in development. Since owning the product, B&O never has taken the effort to communicate with its ownerbase on any topic related to BS5 / BM 5.... something to learn about CRM !

However, in essence, I don't see BS5 as gloomy as some of you..., a good path into digital convergence which may have a chance to last.

My take on the Beosound 5:

Before release:

-What the heck was B&O thinking?

-A $5000 head unit?

-What interface can be that engaging?

After release, and having played with it a while:

-This thing is gorgeous!

-I enjoy up front interaction with the device.

-The materials, fit and finish are up to B&O standards.

-MOTS is pretty cool

I don't own one because of the following reasons:

I already have my music on my hard disk(s) connected to my computer. Why have it in two places? I need to actually work to get my music and album art consistent on the display? (Just ask a friend of mine who purchased a BS5 and spent the good part of two weeks adjusting tags and getting hi res art...)

My opinion on the winning combination for a "Beosound 5"

-this unit opens up two way capabilities in the Beo5 remote

-this unit doesn't need a "Beomaster," but all the software needed would be in the socket panel, which could connect to your itunes library via beoport, or wifi, or USB, and won't need to duplicate files anywhere.

-this unit can be solely a B&O interface for your digital library (won't have to cost an arm and a leg for B&O standards)

Sal

pf85:

I don't think BS5/BM5 are a mistake. The product is a genuine step by B&O to develop a platform that can grow...

B&O never has taken the effort to communicate with its ownerbase on any topic related to BS5 / BM 5.... something to learn about CRM !

But we shouldn't to wait for £4000 worth of kit to 'grow'. Basic functionality is missing. Such as finding a track via the remote, through the TV.

I agree with you about your comment about communication. They just NEVER say sorry for anything. All the problems we had with the BV7-40 MKIII sw issues, generated not a single apology or direct acknowledgement. Same with the BS5. There's no 'ok, here's where we are at: we appreciate your support and are working on x, y, z issues, so bear with us and you should have that functionality soon'.

Have we seen someone from B&O officially post something on here? It would be a good way to acknowledge their users.

I agree very much with all of your points, pf85. I might add that B&O needs to be taking care of their Mac users, too, when developing products that involve a computer. My dealer has told me that ALL of his BS5 sales have been to Mac users.

I think that we will see some interesting new directions in the future as to how B&O will be utilizing ethernet networks for link distribution -- including video. The BM5/BS5 is just the beginning.