in Search
Untitled Page

ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
READ ONLY FORUM

This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 06-16-2009 12:59 PM by Beottaku. 113 replies.
Page 4 of 5 (114 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • 06-06-2009 2:06 PM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Moderator - UK
    • Posts 5,223
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Okay - thank you all for your input.  I think it's time i answered some of your questions, replies and comments! I will address individual posts and respond if i may.

    -------------------

    @ tournedos

    Personally I would have no problems with that, quite the opposite. One thing that would need attention though would be how to keep the distinction between Beoworld and B&O clear - even now, every once in a while, we seem to get an odd new poster who apparently thinks Beoworld is officially affiliated with the company.

    Yes, we get that all the time. I must get about half a dozen emails a week from disgruntled customers wanting answers or moaning about dealers.  I think this may actually be down to the fact that the site looks so professional, and a small number of people will always assume we are B&O.  Apart from making the site more amateur looking, we can't do any more than a disclaimer nobody reads..

    --------------------

    @ Puncher

    B&O do not want to buy BeoWorld. I can assure you this is the furthest thing from their minds. I'm not interested in selling anyway, even if they were - but i'm sure they have had a few chuckles at the 'takeover theory' banded around in this thread.

    You are most welcome to say Bollocks to any product in the line up, past present or future - we are independent and always will be

    As an afterthought - the sites finances and viability should never depend on B&O's contributions - anything they pay or donate should be distributed among the members, the site must always be financially secure without mother B&O's input.

    It never has, and never will - and it would be. I don't need to run BeoWorld for profit, i have LifeStyle AV that pays my mortgage and givs me the life i am content with. If i wanted to make money from BeoWorld, i certainly wouldn't have hung a huge loan round my neck for the total redevelopment. When i do something, i try and do it properly - and hopefully both are an example of this.

    ------------------

    @ Tom

    We would never be 'dependent' on B&O.  We are financially stable at present and any extra revenue would be more than we need. It would simply be put into running the site on our very own server or having better draw prizes. We're at a point now where we don't need anything from anyone, so how can we become dependent on extra revenue?

    -------------------

    @ moxxey

    I see your point exactly in a lot of things you have said.  It's obvious you are in advertsing and you have a very objective view, and whilst defending B&O i think you have had to spring to their defence unnecessarily here as well as mine. No ulterior motives are at play, and if there were, they would go nowhere. We have a lot of brilliant minds on here, and anything amiss would be picked up faster than a piece of litter in Switzerland.

    -------------------

    @ PhilLondon

    We will never do 'paid product reviews' - this isn't exactly fair and balanced!  I will be happy to conduct product reviews on the strict caveat that if it's rubbish - we say so. Yes, we can say so politely - but i wholeheartedly refuse to be forced into gushing praise if the product is garbage. If this was ever implied that we should give all-glowing reviews, i would simply say 'thanks but no thanks'.

    Paid for threads are also not part of my idea.  Yes, we can start a thread on a product - we do anyway, but why it should be 'paid for' is a little beyond me.

    - Beoworld issuing member cards, that would give you discount in shops. Companies do like this kind of advertising as they can see how their campain is effective. It is also directly benefiting members as they get discount. It benefit Beoworld as it drives the number of paid membership.

    I like this idea - a lot. I will suggest it.

    - More interviews with Beo staff. Maybe a different guest each month that would be invited to chat on the forum. For example, a tonemaster could come on the forum and answer questions, for an hour...

    Another excellent idea, which i will suggest.

    - B&O could give us some hints on some upcoming products a bit before others. 

    The one thing with this is that dealers get pretty hacked off when customers come trooping into their stores quoting products they haven't yet heard of, and sometimes knowing more than the staff.  Fair comment in most cases - if i had just paid a quarter of a million pounds for a store, i'd expect any news to come to me first - not an enthusiasts site.

    I think this needs more support from dealers, or at best - we tread carefully. B&O will always naturally have the interests of dealers at heart - it's they that keep the company alive after all.

    We would simply talk about a product as we do now - nothing will change apart from hopefully we get an early look at one and review it.  Your comments have been very honest and frank - thank you.

    ------------------

    @ mobeyone

    It is very naive to think that a site like this can survive solely on the back of revenue generated by membership or through the sales of site related merchandise, anyone remember what it was like when the server would be down for days on end?

    Mobe, yes - i have had some hairy moments a number of times where i've had to put money of my own in, we have in the main just about survived. We are now getting to the point where we consistently cover our loans each month, can pay our server hire costs and any related bills with no real worries about going overdrawn. We are okay, and don't need extra revenue - what a great position to be in.

    Yes, i remember the server crashing almost daily - but, as promised, i said i'd fix that. It's fixed. Keith has been a godsend on this, and so has Van, and between us all we are running a very tight ship on some very high quality servers.

    ---------------------

    @ TheBeonicMan

    I am dubious about this. I think it will start off quite well but over a period of time B&O will have its foot wedged well in the door and impartiality will be a thing of the past. Its ultimately about them wanting to manage and control BeoWorld more than they can at the moment.

    Sorry Simon, i totally disagree. They don't want to manage BeoWorld, they want to sell products and survive in very difficult times. It's that simple.  I'm disappointed that people think i am that naive i wouldn't realise if B&O were looking to 'invade and take over', and i thinks it's an insult to members thinking they would sit back and say nothing if it ever started happening!

    I love BeoWorld as it is now, i love the membership and i love the 'feel' of the site.  We have it just right, and this will not change - and any changes that do happen will be for the better, or not at all.

    -------------------------

    @ beocool

    Since the topic of this site and the manufacturer are the same thing I feel there's a difference.  I'm hesitating at the moment. Must give it some more thought...

    Which is exactly the reason i put it to the members, the most important part of BeoWorld. We agonised over this in the moderators section and still didn't reach a firm conclusion apart from 'we must remain independent' and 'this is great' !

    ------------------------

    @ Mr10Percent

    1. Subscriptions.

    A large number of BeoWorld members make annual subscriptions to this site. As such, they directly support the viability of the site. Also Lee, who I believe has made a significant capital investment to initiate and run this project with upfront expenses and resources has an absolute right to make a return (whether that is for profit, to breakeven, as a tangible or intangible asset or just for his own fun). Finally, we as paying customers can vote with our wallets whether to be a subscription paying member or not. In that context, a sensitive advertising campaign would be good for us all.

    Fair comment - but to clarify, i'm not looking for a 'return' other than to pay off the loans and pay the bills. And yes, you can all vote with your wallets if you don't like it. In contrast to the members paying by 'standing order' via PayPal on the old site, i send reminders and each year the customer has to choose to renew.  The old way with the previous owner was, in my opinion, a bit sneaky - and to this day people are emailing me asking about the payment that just came out of their account that they can't get a refund on.

     

    2. Emotion.

    The problem with B&O advertising is that the key-driver of this website; B&O, has a very large emotional attachment to it. If B&O decide that advertising on BeoWorld is no longer cost effective (and they are a business too), then withdrawing advertising revenues will signal to many members a loss of trust rather than a purely commercial decision. The reverse of that is by BeoWorld withdrawing advertising space because of a perception of loss of independence or integrity, then trust is lost again between the parties.

    I think B&O will always remain pragmatic, even if advertising on BeoWorld doesn't work out.  We are still a collective fountain of knowledge that encourage people to get into the brand and from there go on to be a customer for life in some cases. No trust will be lost, i assure you.

    3. Independence.

    Given the hard work put in by many and the support of the members – both subscribed and non-subscribed, it would be sad, neigh, criminal to lose independence. It would also be very sad to see BeoWorld become financially dependent on B&O to survive. Thus to me, any advertising revenue must be very carefully treated – because of the downsides of points 1 and 2 above.

    We won't, and we won't be, and it will. 

    Another little question which will need equal consideration if asked is (and another double edged sword); “should B&O recommend BeoWorld as its forum of choice for dialogue (chat, help, problem solving etc..) for visitors, customers and enthusiasts rather than support a similar vehicle on its own site which frankly has been “a dead-end” in all its various incarnations”.

     

    B&O would never recommend BeoWorld as a forum of choice officially. They have no control over BeoWorld as we are independent - but i am sure they are grateful that we help so many of their customers enjoy, build and maintain their systems.

    -----------------------------

    @ nmartin771

    You know how it goes "when paying I give conditions"

    Not in this case. We don't need the money, but it's not only very flattering to have B&O advertising - it's helpful to the brand we all love (hopefully). Any advertising would be done on the understanding we remain objective and independent, and i know that the CEO of B&O UK admires and supports this fully.

    ------------------------------

    @ mediabobny

    Kindof the way I see it.  Are we really a desireable target audience?  We're already sold on, nay, addicted to the brand.  Do you need to advertise alcohol to alcoholics?  They need to expand their customer base, not preach to the choir.  IMHO.

    The amount of people i speak to that read all about a product on BeoWorld, then decide to buy or not buy is colossal. I have lost count of the people that never post on here, or have never registered, that have made their decisions based on what we have said. I think we carry a big sway to a lot of people, and lots of them are not 'the converted' - they are simply consumers looking for an informed decision.  On the official site, you get nothing but sugar coated wonderfulness (naturally) about a product - whereas BeoWorld will give it 'warts and all'

    It remains for B&O to put out great products, shut us up and stop us moaning, and start us praising again. However, we're a hard bunch to please.. granted.

    -------------------------

    @ cleviebaby

    Anything that helps build and foster the relationship between the most knowledgable and committed sector of a loyal customer base and the company concerned has got to be good.  Rather than looking at the possibilty of B&O in someway 'tainting' the independence of the site, see it as an opportunity for leverage and to influence product development and change.

    Well said that man - you hit the nail on the head as far as my own views go.

    -----------------------

    @ beojeff

    Will Beoworld begin removing leaked details of future products at the request of B&O? I imagine that the urge of B&O to censor will be irresistible to them.

    On two occasions have i deemed it necessary to remove leaked details and email the poster. On both occasions this would have ruined launches of products that had cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to stage and had taken literally thousands of man hours to plan. I think this has created a trust, which has indeed built a stronger relationship between the site and the brand. B&O never asked me to do this - i did it out of respect for the people that had put so much work into the launches.

    There have also been cases where details have been leaked where it has been extremely inconvenient or irritating for B&O, but they have never asked me to do anything. They accept it is part of the slings and arrows of the press or forums, and are accepting of this.

    -------------------------

    If it means a more splashy type of advertising like a flash presentation, then maybe that's not so good.  Will there be a large financial investment in Beoworld by B&O UK?  Are there going to be ads from other countries?

    No, there will not be a large financial investment by B&O.  We're not a Television Channel or a National Newspaper, and cannot command fees as such! It will not be 'splashy' - it will be tasteful, just as our current advertising is.

    If there is a large financial commitment by B&O, will membership fees be unnecessary?

    It would never get to that point. One advertiser being the mainstay of the site is bad business. That advertiser being the brand we exist for would be stupid.

    -------------------------

    @ medogsfat

    Not one penny of membership fees pays for any of the prizes. Every single prize in the monthly draw is either donated by a third party or supplied by LifeStyle AV (at Lee's expense).

    Not so much recently actually.  Yes, i do supply a lot of the first prizes and we do get a lot of freebies from B&O (who ask for nothing in return), but most of the time i just source prizes at knock-down prices using my clout at LifeStyle AV.  BeoWorld isn't 'cap in hand' any more and pays for almost all of its prizes now.

    ----------------------

    @ craig

    Lee, I think this is great news. However, I also think by far the most important thing here is that Beoworld remains independent. Pretty sure you and the mods will work out the best way for this to happen.

    Yes, it will remain independent. We have a truly brilliant team of moderators who do it all for free. The reason they do this is purely because they believe in the site and the way it's run. They would never let that change, and i'm sure you guys wouldn't either.

    ---------------------

    @ Eugene1960

    If it doesnt seem to be working out we or they can always stop the advertising.

    Absolutely!

    ------------------------

    @ saf

    I mean, the essential question, Lee, is if you think BeoWorld as a concept is (ultimately) to be run as an independent commercial or an independent ‘enthusiasts’ enterprise (based on a ‘budget’ given by paid for memberships). Then there is, of course, ‘something’ in between those two (as it now seems to be the case) which while very wide-spread is the least transparent alternative – and arguably also the least optimal/manageable one.

    We are independent when it comes to the fact that we are not owned B&O, nor do we represent them in any way officially.  Financial independence is another matter, and we must always look to pay the bills.  If the members pay the bills, which they are, then i am happy to consult them on any major decisions.  If i was running this site for commercial gain, i'd have rolled out the adverts and cashed their cheque without so much as asking you guys.. Sorry to be blunt, but that's fact.

    As any other practitioner, I know that live/business is a ‘muddling-through-things’ journey rather than an easy ride according to a magic formula for success: So don’t get me wrong, please. I really think you & Co are doing a fantastic job and potentially might be on to something rather rarely seen in terms of a customer-corporation relationship.

    So do i - which is why we didn't reject the idea straight away.

    To be sure, I’m not merely saying that you should ‘declare’ if you want to run BeoWorld for profit or not! Only that the rules to play by will be distinctly different under each alternative and rather imposed on you from the outside. That said, I’ve no doubt there will be plenty of valuable advice from the members no matter what you decide to do … and if one alternative doesn’t work then there is another one to try.

    Okay - i 'declare' that i am not interested in making money out of BeoWorld.  If we end up with money in the bank and debt free, i will simply look at either spending it improving the site, or will channel it back into the Prize Draw.  If we ended up with a nice big amount of cash in the bank, i would actually consult the membership as to how best to spend it.  I've posted threads on here asking how you would like to see the site improved - and acted on it.  I have a track record of honesty with you guys, and i'd like to think i've never let you down. Surely that counts for something?

    -------------------------

    @ joeyboygolf

    Remember Victor Kayam?

    Is this the thin end of the wedge?

    Is that what you want?

    No, i don't want to buy B&O thank you.

    If this goes ahead and B&O are invited to advertise, I can see their involvement growing to a stage where somebody in Struer says "Why are we messing about throwing money at this bunch of amatuers". "Let's buy the site, and the owner and do the job properly in our PR dept"!!

    Then what????

    Then we all leave, disillusioned, and the site fails.  Why would B&O want to do this?  Let's see the bigger picture here Graham.. B&O want to sell products, we are a great advertising medium, they don't have a forum.  Why don't they have a forum? Because their PR Dept couldn't run the one they had..

    -------------------------

    @ Hardwriter

    At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.

    You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.

    A comment that has been brushed upon many times.  Our aim was to have minimal advertising, and from that we looked to have 'one per genre' with any advertiser being useful to the membership.

    I had a Mobile Phone Company offer me more than any other advertiser we have to have a banner onsite. I refused.  We had a web company looking to place specific ads for anything from Sportswear to Holidays in rotation in a box at the bottom of the page, offering £2,500 a year. I refused.

    If we are deemed 'Commercial' and are forced to accept advertising, i will pull the lot before plastering the site with ads.  It would either be that, or i turn BeoWorld into a free-for-all and make myself a whole load of money accepting adverts from anyone and everyone. Fifty flashing boxes advertising cheap pharmaceuticals anyone? No, i thought not. 

    Our sponsors are professional, reliable and trustworthy. This is why they are rewarded with being the only advertiser in their field as well as being our way of saying thank you for supporting us.

    --------------------------

    @ joeyboygolf (again)

    I note that Lee has recently spent some time in Struer. Of course he might be sheering sheep, it must be getting warmer in Denmark. Alternatively.........

    The last time i went to Struer was the launch of the BeoSound 5.  I'm not sure which travel agent you have tipping you off, but he needs to be off your payroll !!

    ---------------------------

    @ KingOfSnake

    Personally I think whereas Lee has done a good job with the Beoworld site it is independent from what?  

    BeoWorld is independent from Bang & Olufsen. 

    Lee has commercial interests and given the analysis of Hardwriter and the absence of advertising from any other reseller company is indicative of the accuracy of this IMHO.  

    See my response to Hardwriter.

    If we go back to the old chesnut that advertising from only one genre then it at least puts B&O's position in doubt, but then again the position was also that the site wasn't to become an advertising horse - obviously Keith's ad, Sounds Heavenly, Struer Design and STB Brackets at the foot of the page are touching on this too.

    Do we have an advert on here for someone else that manufactures new Bang & Olufsen products?  I take on board your point about us not becoming an advertising horse though, which is why i have consulted you all first.  Please bear in mind, at the end of the day i could do whatever i liked.  I respect the members that make this site what it is immensely, and would never do anything in contravention of their wishes.  Besides, the moderating team wouldn't let me!

    But maybe time to move on, let B&O advertise in my view.  There will be indirect benefits to Lee and his Company but also to the site as a whole with improved prizes and so on.  

    Indirect benefits to LifeStyle AV? How? Bang & Olufsen are in the process of creating a second life database scheme that could destroy LifeStyle AV, morethanav and Iconic AV in one swoop.  The mere fact i'm setting this aside is testament to the fact i'm totally unbiased when it comes to BeoWorld.

    Finally, yes - if we have improved prizes - great!

    ----------------------------

    So, i hope that answers all your questions and concerns. This reply has taken me all afternoon to write!

    I think we should go ahead, see where it goes, and if we don't like it - we say!

    Lee

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 06-06-2009 2:14 PM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    9 LEE:

     

    I think we should go ahead, see where it goes, and if we don't like it - we say!

    Lee

    I agree.

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 06-06-2009 3:16 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Lee - given some of the repetitive nature of the comments posted that you responded to, I would have appreciated it if you could have taken the time to respond to the points I raised a couple of days ago about prioritising input from paid up members of this site before proceeding. I think it is important that those of us who have shelled out money in subs to keep the site going have a say here in some form of secret ballot, and I personally think that this crucial and perfectly sensible request may have been drowned out by the numbers of responses in general.

    More widely I would ask other paid up Beoworlders whether this is something they think we deserve? 

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 06-06-2009 5:43 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Thanks Lee, for taking the time to address everyone's concerns individually (apart from Johns obviously)Big Smile

    As I've said, I am happy to proceed and see how it goes (maybe a B&O supplied top prize will change my luck in the draw)Laughing

    Oops, I nearly forgot............. BOLLOCKS!Laughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-06-2009 6:14 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I think we are running the risk of massively over reacting here. B&O have merely said that they are running a campaign and are hoping that they can include Beoworld in this by means of an ad. I am sure we are a tiny part of the campaign! They are merely covering all bases. For anyone to think this is part of a sinister plot or that it really needs a lot of soul seaching seems to be living in another reality to me. If we are lucky we will get a few minor goodies to give away to members and we will see if the site is affected by the ad. If it is intrusive and we get complaints, I dare say we won't do it again.

    No doubt Lee will be mulling over the reactions and making a decision. I don't really think a secret ballot is necessary or entirely practical.

  • 06-06-2009 6:28 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Peter :

    I don't really think a secret ballot is necessary or entirely practical.

    It's this kind of talk that makes me think twice about paying up after my previous two years paid (and founder) membership expired. Sure, it's good to win a prize now and again (if I needed more kit), but I want don't want part of a 'them and us' scenario where paid-for members (for a forum, a discussion forum!) discuss strategic decisions as a committee :)

    I actually can't believe people on here think that they need to evaluate the situation and get back to Lee with an answer. It's solely Lee's decision, it's just an advert/campaign and there are far more pressing things in my (and our) day-to-day life.

  • 06-06-2009 7:04 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Fair play Peter - but part of me wonders why you bother asking the question if the answers received to do not fit the responses you were looking for? After all, life takes all sorts and a diversity of responses was surely to be expected.

    One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around.

    I think there's a wider malaise here that needs to be addressed. I for one have been a relatively active meber of the forum for four years or so now, but I sometimes wonder why I bother when I know that a handful posts I have made have been edited and/or moved, and I've ultimately acquiesced to this without really coming to terms with the fact that when this happens even with the most honourable intentions, the result is to in some way compromise the poster and begin to push the slightest wedge between the wider membership and the mods. No doubt I'll be either lambasted or ignored for this, but that's just where I'm at wrt Beoworld at the moment. Oh well...there's always doctors.net, and newbeetle.co.uk for my new motoring interest I suppose.

     

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 06-06-2009 7:11 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    moxxey:

    Peter :

    I don't really think a secret ballot is necessary or entirely practical.

    It's this kind of talk that makes me think twice about paying up after my previous two years paid (and founder) membership expired. Sure, it's good to win a prize now and again (if I needed more kit), but I want don't want part of a 'them and us' scenario where paid-for members (for a forum, a discussion forum!) discuss strategic decisions as a committee :)

    I actually can't believe people on here think that they need to evaluate the situation and get back to Lee with an answer. It's solely Lee's decision, it's just an advert/campaign and there are far more pressing things in my (and our) day-to-day life.

    To be fair, Lee asked for peoples thoughts. Some decided they'd like to think about it, but posted to say as much rather than appearing to have ignored Lee's request.

    It is Lee's site, however he's always run it as a community and I for one am pleased that he asks for members (both paying and non-paying) opinions before acting. The final choice will always be his but he has demonstrated, on more than one occasion, his "community spirit" and the site is all the better because of it.

    As an aside, my membership fee has always been unconditional, I don't consider myself to have any sort of "shareholding" and I would decline many (not all) of the prizes if I didn't have a real use for them - I'd rather someone won them that did.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-07-2009 3:05 AM In reply to

    • saf
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 458
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    @Lee

    “To be sure, I’m not merely saying that you should ‘declare’ if you want to run BeoWorld for profit or not! Only that the rules to play by will be distinctly different under each alternative and rather imposed on you from the outside. That said, I’ve no doubt there will be plenty of valuable advice from the members no matter what you decide to do … and if one alternative doesn’t work then there is another one to try.

    Okay - i 'declare' that i am not interested in making money out of BeoWorld.  If we end up with money in the bank and debt free, i will simply look at either spending it improving the site, or will channel it back into the Prize Draw.  If we ended up with a nice big amount of cash in the bank, i would actually consult the membership as to how best to spend it.  I've posted threads on here asking how you would like to see the site improved - and acted on it.  I have a track record of honesty with you guys, and i'd like to think i've never let you down. Surely that counts for something?”

    - Absolutely, and despite my admittedly vague formulation which I’d attempted to clarify a few posts below it, it was/is not my aim to question what you (re)state.  No need to reply to the following it’s meant as food for thought …

     

    In short, though I doubt B&O would now go as far as accepting, say, a clearly separated (non-commercial!) section on BeoWorld to voice whatever and whenever they thought it ok to communicate here, I think it might be more interesting as well as conceptually/contextually more appropriate. - Maybe they feel there would be too much of unpredictability and uncontrollability attached to this?

     

    Many say let them have some ads, but perhaps the same people might agree that such a non-commercial section would be, in fact, more desirable (also, you are free to click on it – or not). Maybe if certain – ‘civilized’ - rules were agreed on, such as members agreeing not to ask them for direct response (eg such as disappointed customers) … this perhaps might be mutually understandable, manageable and acceptable?

     

    I don’t fear of fewer independent views as a result of B&O’ advertising, rather asking, how sustainable – in principle – is a relationship between us and our ‘silent target’ at which we ‘shoot from hip’ while receiving for this, well, a 'reward' from our very same target? (If this 'reward' is a paid-for ad or ‘in kind’ is rather irrelevant in such a context...)

     

    I thought this is not too boring:
    @moxxey – BeoForum ala BeoWorld?

    I think one cannot expect B&O to create anything like BeoWorld themselves, because it would quite simply be against human nature: similarly to you and me, a company is not really going to engage in a dialog (in addition in public – or with the office door wide open) in which the other party has very little to lose – if not nothing - while basically asking you to ‘take off your clothes and tell everything about you’ … You can’t really blame them (I know you don’t). Surprising that B&O tried … Of course, B&O know all this very well, now. My guess is, they are now perhaps just a bit more puzzled by BeoWorld and maybe try to figure out if/how all this could be turned into something positive – for everybody (ie their customers and hence themselves).

     

    Back to Lee:

     

    “@ Hardwriter

    At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.

    You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.

    A comment that has been brushed upon many times.  Our aim was to have minimal advertising, and from that we looked to have 'one per genre' with any advertiser being useful to the membership.

    I had a Mobile Phone Company offer me more than any other advertiser we have to have a banner onsite. I refused.  We had a web company looking to place specific ads for anything from Sportswear to Holidays in rotation in a box at the bottom of the page, offering £2,500 a year. I refused.

    If we are deemed 'Commercial' and are forced to accept advertising, i will pull the lot before plastering the site with ads.  It would either be that, or i turn BeoWorld into a free-for-all and make myself a whole load of money accepting adverts from anyone and everyone. Fifty flashing boxes advertising cheap pharmaceuticals anyone? No, i thought not. 

    Our sponsors are professional, reliable and trustworthy. This is why they are rewarded with being the only advertiser in their field as well as being our way of saying thank you for supporting us.”

    Lee, wrongly or rightly, such approach is, rather jokingly, ‘coined’ by the media industry’s constituting parties as ‘attempts at playing god’ (You decide who should be an advertiser and who not, you decide on what is good for advertisers and what not, you decide what advertising messages are good for the audience and which not etc.) I guess once entering the realm of media everyone becomes instantly tempted to become  one (god) – just look at my own first four paragraphs Surprise… I also know it has its consequences.

     

    And finally: If B&O went for the ads only, they would be settling for (maybe not even) the second best – wouldn’t they? The advantage would though, of course, be eliminating the element of a cumbersome dialog etc.

     

    Then again, I might be wrong and others right with respect to the ads, in a sense that ‘a picture can sometimes be worth more than a thousand words’, after all…

    Clearly, the warning signs as well as many good ideas people flash out in response to your post are meant well, however dramatic and exaggerated it all might sound. Indeed they illustrate people do  care for what you (guys) do!

    Smile

  • 06-07-2009 3:22 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    j0hnbarker:

    Fair play Peter - but part of me wonders why you bother asking the question if the answers received to do not fit the responses you were looking for? After all, life takes all sorts and a diversity of responses was surely to be expected.

    One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around.

    I think there's a wider malaise here that needs to be addressed. I for one have been a relatively active meber of the forum for four years or so now, but I sometimes wonder why I bother when I know that a handful posts I have made have been edited and/or moved, and I've ultimately acquiesced to this without really coming to terms with the fact that when this happens even with the most honourable intentions, the result is to in some way compromise the poster and begin to push the slightest wedge between the wider membership and the mods. No doubt I'll be either lambasted or ignored for this, but that's just where I'm at wrt Beoworld at the moment. Oh well...there's always doctors.net, and newbeetle.co.uk for my new motoring interest I suppose.

     

    A couple of points here - I think the majority of posts are actually positive. The question was posed so that members knew what was going on and Lee wished to get a feel for what the members of the forum felt. In my view, I am afraid that the membership fees are just that: they are paid to access manuals and the for sale area and in the case of gold membership, access to the prize draw, which has a superb set of prizes and a very good chance of winning. It also helps support the site and I know many members join for exactly this reason. On a personal note I have been supporting this site financially for many years and at considerably more cost than the membership fee. I expect nothing back at all and certainly have no say in the running of this site. I merely enjoy being a member  and think it is worth it. I certainly have no feeling of owning the site - this has always been the case.

    All sites need to be moderated or risk falling into a morass of flaming and pornography. I cannot think of any of your posts that have been moderated though obviously I accept that you know better. Most posts are moderated automatically and these will be sorted manually when noticed. Other posts are only moderated when offensive to other members. I think the moderating on this site is extremely hands off - I personally have done no moderating for a couple of months except to approve posts caught in the spam filter and correct some spelling to help make a post more understandable. (I think our non English speakers are incredible to be able to post in English so well) I think you will find the moderating at doctors.net rather more formal.

    At the end of the day, this site is here to provide a source of information and entertainment for those interested in B&O. It was set up for no other purpose. In my view the purpose has not changed but we have massively expanded the site and offer more information and more entertainment. I still see no other purpose. All sites cost money to run and this is why there is a silver and gold membership. However the forum depends on all classes of members. We are very grateful for those members who help support the site - without them the site would not exist in its present form - but we also value the bronze members who contribute so much to the forum.

     

  • 06-07-2009 4:09 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Peter :
    At the end of the day, this site is here to provide a source of information and entertainment for those interested in B&O. It was set up for no other purpose. In my view the purpose has not changed but we have massively expanded the site and offer more information and more entertainment. I still see no other purpose.

    Peter,

    This is exactly why I joined.  The site rejuvenated my interest in old B&O and has helped me considerably in learning more.  I have never seen the site as some form of co-operative with voting rights.  That's not what I pay my 30 quid for.  I am endebted to Lee for funding it and to all the members for their advice and for the sheer pleasure of reading their views on it.  If the relationship with B&O can be enhanced as a result of advertising, that's great.

    Cleve  

  • 06-07-2009 4:51 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Copenhagen / Denmark
    • Posts 5,008
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    - Wouldn't it be a little strange if a brand enthusiast site blocked for cooperation with the brands marketing ?
    - Wouldn't it be a little strange if a brand enthusiast site wouldn't allow the brand to advertize by them ?
    (Aren't we already ? - The site is filled with photos and descriptions of their products).

    Evaluating new products, I can't see as a problem regarding independency. We've done it before and
    everybody was happy. If a turkey comes along, we'll be honest and call it exactly that, we've done that
    before too.
    The opinion we give will always be that of the evaluating members, never that of B&O themselves.
    I see it as merely giving B&O a second opinion and/or honest feedback from potential buyers.
    Not many brands have this opportunity - this is something that we can give B&O and it can be extremely
    valuable for them - but it only works as long as we're independent. This again means that B&O would never
    benefit from controlling Beoworld.
    I also see it as a huge opportunity for us to help B&O through hard times, something that not
    many brands will get.

    I say we try it and if it starts to look scruffy, we'll just stop.

    Martin

  • 06-07-2009 5:56 AM In reply to

    • Luke
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-03-2009
    • Switzerland
    • Posts 286
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    j0hnbarker:

    Lee - given some of the repetitive nature of the comments posted that you responded to, I would have appreciated it if you could have taken the time to respond to the points I raised a couple of days ago about prioritising input from paid up members of this site before proceeding. I think it is important that those of us who have shelled out money in subs to keep the site going have a say here in some form of secret ballot, and I personally think that this crucial and perfectly sensible request may have been drowned out by the numbers of responses in general.

    More widely I would ask other paid up Beoworlders whether this is something they think we deserve?

    I am a paying member.... and don't take this the wrong way... but I don't think that means I deserve more input. I have received some very valuable information on this site from people who are non paying members. All members of this site, paying or non paying are valuable contibutors. The important thing in a forum is that people DO contribute.

  • 06-07-2009 7:12 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    j0hnbarker:

    One thing I can't get to the bottom of though is why bother asking for subs to support the site if there isn't a say so in some of the strategic decision making? I thought that was the point of Lee's original post, or perhaps I'm wide of the mark?? Either way, I'm not satisfied to make my contribution just to be able to post for sale/wanted ads. I can always use eBay for that and have guaranteed sales. From my point of view I was buying into the site and, in my mind at least, buying into the business and hoping that my opinion would count for something. If my opinion has the same weight as a non-fee paying member then fair enough - I know what to do next year when the renewal rolls around. 

    I'm sorry but I do not remember reading at any stage when paying my membership fee, that I was buying shares in BeoWorld.  You pay membership fee's, not subs, for services provided.  The outstanding services are providing financial support for the site, just like any other product you as a consumer buy it, the company make money and this pays to run the company so they can continue to sell products.  If i buy a tin of beans in Tescos I don't expext an invitation to their next board meeting, but they may ask my opinion next time I'm in the store as to my experiences.  It's only my opinion but I think your way off the mark with this one!  

  • 06-07-2009 7:31 AM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Moderator - UK
    • Posts 5,223
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Okay..

    @ j0hnbarker..

    Does your 'vote' count half as much being a Silver Member compared to a Gold Member that paid twice what you did then? 

    If everyone was Bronze, i'd still ask the same question and take on board the answers.  The whole idea at the start, if you remember, was not to persecute non-paying members and make them feel guilty for not 'supprting the site' financially. Do you recall the threads that discussed this in great detail?

    There was talk about a wedge between the mods and members - but wouldn't ignoring Bronze Members drive a wedge between the paying and non-paying members?  That was never the intention.. i created the Prize Draw and Peter scanned and uploaded literally thousands of rare/unobtainable user manuals to simply say 'thank you' to people for contributing financially.  Believe me, the Prize Draw takes up a hell of a lot of time and is something most people wouldn't have bothered with. I do it to show my appreciation of the people that pay their hard earned money to keep the site going.

    As for a secret ballot?  We're talking about B&O popping an advert on the site, not buying it outright or evicting us from the internet...

    Lee

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 06-07-2009 8:15 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Peter :

    All sites need to be moderated or risk falling into a morass of flaming and pornography.

    Yes, spam. Our magazine forums receive a hell of a lot of spam, even though you have to be a registered member to post new threads. I don't know why they bother. We have to clear the posts and then ban their IP. Lots of unnecessary work :(

    On a sidenote, perhaps Beoworld should use an external media agency to book and manage the adverts, enabling everyone - B&O, dealers, other resellers - to be able to advertise. Media agency controls the time online, rotation, links and so on.

    Perhaps it's time to widen the scope and rely less on giving away prizes.

  • 06-07-2009 10:48 AM In reply to

    • Jandyt
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-01-2007
    • Clitheroe, Lancashire, UK
    • Posts 13,004
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Jandyt:

    Gosh!  Answering this, is a lot harder than you would first think.
    There are so many pros and cons.
    I will ruminate a little before I make comment I think!Hmm

    Andy T.

    Ok, I've ruminated.
    Go for it Lee!

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 06-07-2009 12:41 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    'I created the Prize Draw and Peter scanned and uploaded literally thousands of rare/unobtainable user manuals to simply say 'thank you' to people for contributing financially.'

    I know Lee - I sent over some manuals I had myself that were not previously on the site, as well as writing an accompanying product description for the Beolit 800.   

    As for a secret ballot?  We're talking about B&O popping an advert on the site, not buying it outright or evicting us from the internet...

    Ok - fair enough. As enough people have pointed out this is your site. But please, why ask the question when judging from the above your mind was already made up? If it's just to rubber stamp what you already know will be the answer then I think the whole exercise is disingenuous. Were you really expecting a chorus of disapproval? Honestly?

    Sorry - I've hardly been a troublesome member, but this issue has touched a nerve as I feel that questions are being asked, then dissenting members are being shouted down. I'll go and stand in the corner until I have had chance to think about what I've done wrong!

     

     

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 06-07-2009 12:53 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    No nerve touched - just a difference of opinion! I know that we expected a variety of views and all views are welcome. The concerns highlighted are important and have made us aware of what the members expect from the site. You are not a difficult member and are completely entitled to your view which is valued. We are merely trying something out and, once we have, we will again ask how things were for the members!

  • 06-07-2009 2:07 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    j0hnbarker:

    'I created the Prize Draw and Peter scanned and uploaded literally thousands of rare/unobtainable user manuals to simply say 'thank you' to people for contributing financially.'

    I know Lee - I sent over some manuals I had myself that were not previously on the site, as well as writing an accompanying product description for the Beolit 800.   

    As for a secret ballot?  We're talking about B&O popping an advert on the site, not buying it outright or evicting us from the internet...

    Ok - fair enough. As enough people have pointed out this is your site. But please, why ask the question when judging from the above your mind was already made up? If it's just to rubber stamp what you already know will be the answer then I think the whole exercise is disingenuous. Were you really expecting a chorus of disapproval? Honestly?

    Sorry - I've hardly been a troublesome member, but this issue has touched a nerve as I feel that questions are being asked, then dissenting members are being shouted down. I'll go and stand in the corner until I have had chance to think about what I've done wrong!

    John ... No! Don't you dare go and stand in a corner. I for one have particularly enjoyed reading your posts. Its good to speak your mind. I do too. There is no right and wrong answer here. A thread was started, questions were asked and members have reponded. It is now up to the site owner and the moderators to use that information as they choose.

    There is no such thing as a 'troublesome member.' Well, not in this context anyway. I have never thought as myself as that type and I have encouraged and been party to several heated debates. I see it all as very positive discussion. You have expressed you views and you have done it politley and respectfully, nobody could ask more than that.

    Let me tell you something... I got my voting card through recently and had my opportunity to vote in the last few days. But what is it I am voting for exactly? I am still playing by someone elses rules because I am only allowed to vote for the parties that exist and stand. That means there is no democracy and I am still being controlled and told what to do. I am not consulted about what laws are passed; I am not consulted about any issues that really affect me as a 'free' individual. I am only ever informed of rules I break - most of them I have never head of anyway because someone else 'decided' (without my consultation) to make and pass them. A referendum is the only true democratic process and one that does not exist.

    You keep going as you are. 

    Simon.

  • 06-07-2009 2:12 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    As a relatively new subscriber I hesitate to pass comment on this topic, especially as one of my early posts was on pre-owned dealers (in complete ignorance of the role of Lifestyle with the site!)

    I take the view that carrying B&O advertising would indirectly sharpen-up B&O output as they would know that they would suffer disproportionately if a poor product was condemned by forum posters. (Even more so if they withdrew advertising after poor reviews.) In a strange sort of way, the fact that they are interested in using the site seems to suggest that they think that they've got good products in the pipeline that will stand-up well to Beoworld forum scrutiny.

    So my view would be that the advertising should be allowed. Good products will carry good forum comment. Whatever Beoworld does, substandard products will ultimately mean the end of B&O as we know it, with the site becoming a vintage B&O site without the advertising we're all so concerned about!

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 06-07-2009 2:14 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I am still being controlled and told what to do. I am not consulted about what laws are passed; I am not consulted about any issues that really affect me as a 'free' individual. I am only ever informed of rules I break - most of them I have never head of anyway because someone else 'decided' (without my consultation) to make and pass them. A referendum is the only true democratic process and one that does not exist.

    Then do something about it Simon. Run for parliament yourself.

    No point moaning, or dwelling on a situation, unless you do something.

  • 06-07-2009 2:32 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    moxxey:

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I am still being controlled and told what to do. I am not consulted about what laws are passed; I am not consulted about any issues that really affect me as a 'free' individual. I am only ever informed of rules I break - most of them I have never head of anyway because someone else 'decided' (without my consultation) to make and pass them. A referendum is the only true democratic process and one that does not exist.

    Then do something about it Simon. Run for parliament yourself.

    No point moaning, or dwelling on a situation, unless you do something.

    I expected that response from you Chris. You are the first to comment whenever I submit a post. You missed by point compeltly but its irrelevent as it was a sideline post to the real issue thats being discussed in this thread. It was food for thought. Give it some more thought.

    Simon.

  • 06-07-2009 3:25 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I didn't miss the point at all Simon. You'd be surprised. However, little point moaning about the establishment, unless you intend to do something about it. It's not as if you're the only one under that umbrella. You have to elect a government that attempts to manage its population, be those single people, families, those with disabilities, people who can't work and so on. What you may not like (about the government), someone else may adore. That's why you either have to do something about it - if you disagree or feel someone makes decisions on your behalf - or put up.

  • 06-07-2009 3:59 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-14-2007
    • Copenhagen / Denmark
    • Posts 5,008
    • Founder

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Gentlemen, could we please stay on topic.

    Martin

Page 4 of 5 (114 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next >