Okay - thank you all for your input. I think it's time i answered some of your questions, replies and comments! I will address individual posts and respond if i may.
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@ tournedos
Personally I would have no problems with that, quite the opposite. One thing that would need attention though would be how to keep the distinction between Beoworld and B&O clear - even now, every once in a while, we seem to get an odd new poster who apparently thinks Beoworld is officially affiliated with the company.
Yes, we get that all the time. I must get about half a dozen emails a week from disgruntled customers wanting answers or moaning about dealers. I think this may actually be down to the fact that the site looks so professional, and a small number of people will always assume we are B&O. Apart from making the site more amateur looking, we can't do any more than a disclaimer nobody reads..
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@ Puncher
B&O do not want to buy BeoWorld. I can assure you this is the furthest thing from their minds. I'm not interested in selling anyway, even if they were - but i'm sure they have had a few chuckles at the 'takeover theory' banded around in this thread.
You are most welcome to say Bollocks to any product in the line up, past present or future - we are independent and always will be
As an afterthought - the sites finances and viability should never depend on B&O's contributions - anything they pay or donate should be distributed among the members, the site must always be financially secure without mother B&O's input.
It never has, and never will - and it would be. I don't need to run BeoWorld for profit, i have LifeStyle AV that pays my mortgage and givs me the life i am content with. If i wanted to make money from BeoWorld, i certainly wouldn't have hung a huge loan round my neck for the total redevelopment. When i do something, i try and do it properly - and hopefully both are an example of this.
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@ Tom
We would never be 'dependent' on B&O. We are financially stable at present and any extra revenue would be more than we need. It would simply be put into running the site on our very own server or having better draw prizes. We're at a point now where we don't need anything from anyone, so how can we become dependent on extra revenue?
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@ moxxey
I see your point exactly in a lot of things you have said. It's obvious you are in advertsing and you have a very objective view, and whilst defending B&O i think you have had to spring to their defence unnecessarily here as well as mine. No ulterior motives are at play, and if there were, they would go nowhere. We have a lot of brilliant minds on here, and anything amiss would be picked up faster than a piece of litter in Switzerland.
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@ PhilLondon
We will never do 'paid product reviews' - this isn't exactly fair and balanced! I will be happy to conduct product reviews on the strict caveat that if it's rubbish - we say so. Yes, we can say so politely - but i wholeheartedly refuse to be forced into gushing praise if the product is garbage. If this was ever implied that we should give all-glowing reviews, i would simply say 'thanks but no thanks'.
Paid for threads are also not part of my idea. Yes, we can start a thread on a product - we do anyway, but why it should be 'paid for' is a little beyond me.
- Beoworld issuing member cards, that would give you discount in shops. Companies do like this kind of advertising as they can see how their campain is effective. It is also directly benefiting members as they get discount. It benefit Beoworld as it drives the number of paid membership.
I like this idea - a lot. I will suggest it.
- More interviews with Beo staff. Maybe a different guest each month that would be invited to chat on the forum. For example, a tonemaster could come on the forum and answer questions, for an hour...
Another excellent idea, which i will suggest.
- B&O could give us some hints on some upcoming products a bit before others.
The one thing with this is that dealers get pretty hacked off when customers come trooping into their stores quoting products they haven't yet heard of, and sometimes knowing more than the staff. Fair comment in most cases - if i had just paid a quarter of a million pounds for a store, i'd expect any news to come to me first - not an enthusiasts site.
I think this needs more support from dealers, or at best - we tread carefully. B&O will always naturally have the interests of dealers at heart - it's they that keep the company alive after all.
We would simply talk about a product as we do now - nothing will change apart from hopefully we get an early look at one and review it. Your comments have been very honest and frank - thank you.
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@ mobeyone
It is very naive to think that a site like this can survive solely on the back of revenue generated by membership or through the sales of site related merchandise, anyone remember what it was like when the server would be down for days on end?
Mobe, yes - i have had some hairy moments a number of times where i've had to put money of my own in, we have in the main just about survived. We are now getting to the point where we consistently cover our loans each month, can pay our server hire costs and any related bills with no real worries about going overdrawn. We are okay, and don't need extra revenue - what a great position to be in.
Yes, i remember the server crashing almost daily - but, as promised, i said i'd fix that. It's fixed. Keith has been a godsend on this, and so has Van, and between us all we are running a very tight ship on some very high quality servers.
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@ TheBeonicMan
I am dubious about this. I think it will start off quite well but over a period of time B&O will have its foot wedged well in the door and impartiality will be a thing of the past. Its ultimately about them wanting to manage and control BeoWorld more than they can at the moment.
Sorry Simon, i totally disagree. They don't want to manage BeoWorld, they want to sell products and survive in very difficult times. It's that simple. I'm disappointed that people think i am that naive i wouldn't realise if B&O were looking to 'invade and take over', and i thinks it's an insult to members thinking they would sit back and say nothing if it ever started happening!
I love BeoWorld as it is now, i love the membership and i love the 'feel' of the site. We have it just right, and this will not change - and any changes that do happen will be for the better, or not at all.
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@ beocool
Since the topic of this site and the manufacturer are the same thing I feel there's a difference. I'm hesitating at the moment. Must give it some more thought...
Which is exactly the reason i put it to the members, the most important part of BeoWorld. We agonised over this in the moderators section and still didn't reach a firm conclusion apart from 'we must remain independent' and 'this is great' !
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@ Mr10Percent
1. Subscriptions.
A large number of BeoWorld members make annual subscriptions to this site. As such, they directly support the viability of the site. Also Lee, who I believe has made a significant capital investment to initiate and run this project with upfront expenses and resources has an absolute right to make a return (whether that is for profit, to breakeven, as a tangible or intangible asset or just for his own fun). Finally, we as paying customers can vote with our wallets whether to be a subscription paying member or not. In that context, a sensitive advertising campaign would be good for us all.
Fair comment - but to clarify, i'm not looking for a 'return' other than to pay off the loans and pay the bills. And yes, you can all vote with your wallets if you don't like it. In contrast to the members paying by 'standing order' via PayPal on the old site, i send reminders and each year the customer has to choose to renew. The old way with the previous owner was, in my opinion, a bit sneaky - and to this day people are emailing me asking about the payment that just came out of their account that they can't get a refund on.
2. Emotion.
The problem with B&O advertising is that the key-driver of this website; B&O, has a very large emotional attachment to it. If B&O decide that advertising on BeoWorld is no longer cost effective (and they are a business too), then withdrawing advertising revenues will signal to many members a loss of trust rather than a purely commercial decision. The reverse of that is by BeoWorld withdrawing advertising space because of a perception of loss of independence or integrity, then trust is lost again between the parties.
I think B&O will always remain pragmatic, even if advertising on BeoWorld doesn't work out. We are still a collective fountain of knowledge that encourage people to get into the brand and from there go on to be a customer for life in some cases. No trust will be lost, i assure you.
3. Independence.
Given the hard work put in by many and the support of the members – both subscribed and non-subscribed, it would be sad, neigh, criminal to lose independence. It would also be very sad to see BeoWorld become financially dependent on B&O to survive. Thus to me, any advertising revenue must be very carefully treated – because of the downsides of points 1 and 2 above.
We won't, and we won't be, and it will.
Another little question which will need equal consideration if asked is (and another double edged sword); “should B&O recommend BeoWorld as its forum of choice for dialogue (chat, help, problem solving etc..) for visitors, customers and enthusiasts rather than support a similar vehicle on its own site which frankly has been “a dead-end” in all its various incarnations”.
B&O would never recommend BeoWorld as a forum of choice officially. They have no control over BeoWorld as we are independent - but i am sure they are grateful that we help so many of their customers enjoy, build and maintain their systems.
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@ nmartin771
You know how it goes "when paying I give conditions"
Not in this case. We don't need the money, but it's not only very flattering to have B&O advertising - it's helpful to the brand we all love (hopefully). Any advertising would be done on the understanding we remain objective and independent, and i know that the CEO of B&O UK admires and supports this fully.
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@ mediabobny
Kindof the way I see it. Are we really a desireable target audience? We're already sold on, nay, addicted to the brand. Do you need to advertise alcohol to alcoholics? They need to expand their customer base, not preach to the choir. IMHO.
The amount of people i speak to that read all about a product on BeoWorld, then decide to buy or not buy is colossal. I have lost count of the people that never post on here, or have never registered, that have made their decisions based on what we have said. I think we carry a big sway to a lot of people, and lots of them are not 'the converted' - they are simply consumers looking for an informed decision. On the official site, you get nothing but sugar coated wonderfulness (naturally) about a product - whereas BeoWorld will give it 'warts and all'
It remains for B&O to put out great products, shut us up and stop us moaning, and start us praising again. However, we're a hard bunch to please.. granted.
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@ cleviebaby
Anything that helps build and foster the relationship between the most knowledgable and committed sector of a loyal customer base and the company concerned has got to be good. Rather than looking at the possibilty of B&O in someway 'tainting' the independence of the site, see it as an opportunity for leverage and to influence product development and change.
Well said that man - you hit the nail on the head as far as my own views go.
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@ beojeff
Will Beoworld begin removing leaked details of future products at the request of B&O? I imagine that the urge of B&O to censor will be irresistible to them.
On two occasions have i deemed it necessary to remove leaked details and email the poster. On both occasions this would have ruined launches of products that had cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to stage and had taken literally thousands of man hours to plan. I think this has created a trust, which has indeed built a stronger relationship between the site and the brand. B&O never asked me to do this - i did it out of respect for the people that had put so much work into the launches.
There have also been cases where details have been leaked where it has been extremely inconvenient or irritating for B&O, but they have never asked me to do anything. They accept it is part of the slings and arrows of the press or forums, and are accepting of this.
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If it means a more splashy type of advertising like a flash presentation, then maybe that's not so good. Will there be a large financial investment in Beoworld by B&O UK? Are there going to be ads from other countries?
No, there will not be a large financial investment by B&O. We're not a Television Channel or a National Newspaper, and cannot command fees as such! It will not be 'splashy' - it will be tasteful, just as our current advertising is.
If there is a large financial commitment by B&O, will membership fees be unnecessary?
It would never get to that point. One advertiser being the mainstay of the site is bad business. That advertiser being the brand we exist for would be stupid.
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@ medogsfat
Not one penny of membership fees pays for any of the prizes. Every single prize in the monthly draw is either donated by a third party or supplied by LifeStyle AV (at Lee's expense).
Not so much recently actually. Yes, i do supply a lot of the first prizes and we do get a lot of freebies from B&O (who ask for nothing in return), but most of the time i just source prizes at knock-down prices using my clout at LifeStyle AV. BeoWorld isn't 'cap in hand' any more and pays for almost all of its prizes now.
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@ craig
Lee, I think this is great news. However, I also think by far the most important thing here is that Beoworld remains independent. Pretty sure you and the mods will work out the best way for this to happen.
Yes, it will remain independent. We have a truly brilliant team of moderators who do it all for free. The reason they do this is purely because they believe in the site and the way it's run. They would never let that change, and i'm sure you guys wouldn't either.
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@ Eugene1960
If it doesnt seem to be working out we or they can always stop the advertising.
Absolutely!
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@ saf
I mean, the essential question, Lee, is if you think BeoWorld as a concept is (ultimately) to be run as an independent commercial or an independent ‘enthusiasts’ enterprise (based on a ‘budget’ given by paid for memberships). Then there is, of course, ‘something’ in between those two (as it now seems to be the case) which while very wide-spread is the least transparent alternative – and arguably also the least optimal/manageable one.
We are independent when it comes to the fact that we are not owned B&O, nor do we represent them in any way officially. Financial independence is another matter, and we must always look to pay the bills. If the members pay the bills, which they are, then i am happy to consult them on any major decisions. If i was running this site for commercial gain, i'd have rolled out the adverts and cashed their cheque without so much as asking you guys.. Sorry to be blunt, but that's fact.
As any other practitioner, I know that live/business is a ‘muddling-through-things’ journey rather than an easy ride according to a magic formula for success: So don’t get me wrong, please. I really think you & Co are doing a fantastic job and potentially might be on to something rather rarely seen in terms of a customer-corporation relationship.
So do i - which is why we didn't reject the idea straight away.
To be sure, I’m not merely saying that you should ‘declare’ if you want to run BeoWorld for profit or not! Only that the rules to play by will be distinctly different under each alternative and rather imposed on you from the outside. That said, I’ve no doubt there will be plenty of valuable advice from the members no matter what you decide to do … and if one alternative doesn’t work then there is another one to try.
Okay - i 'declare' that i am not interested in making money out of BeoWorld. If we end up with money in the bank and debt free, i will simply look at either spending it improving the site, or will channel it back into the Prize Draw. If we ended up with a nice big amount of cash in the bank, i would actually consult the membership as to how best to spend it. I've posted threads on here asking how you would like to see the site improved - and acted on it. I have a track record of honesty with you guys, and i'd like to think i've never let you down. Surely that counts for something?
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@ joeyboygolf
Remember Victor Kayam?
Is this the thin end of the wedge?
Is that what you want?
No, i don't want to buy B&O thank you.
If this goes ahead and B&O are invited to advertise, I can see their involvement growing to a stage where somebody in Struer says "Why are we messing about throwing money at this bunch of amatuers". "Let's buy the site, and the owner and do the job properly in our PR dept"!!
Then what????
Then we all leave, disillusioned, and the site fails. Why would B&O want to do this? Let's see the bigger picture here Graham.. B&O want to sell products, we are a great advertising medium, they don't have a forum. Why don't they have a forum? Because their PR Dept couldn't run the one they had..
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@ Hardwriter
At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.
You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.
A comment that has been brushed upon many times. Our aim was to have minimal advertising, and from that we looked to have 'one per genre' with any advertiser being useful to the membership.
I had a Mobile Phone Company offer me more than any other advertiser we have to have a banner onsite. I refused. We had a web company looking to place specific ads for anything from Sportswear to Holidays in rotation in a box at the bottom of the page, offering £2,500 a year. I refused.
If we are deemed 'Commercial' and are forced to accept advertising, i will pull the lot before plastering the site with ads. It would either be that, or i turn BeoWorld into a free-for-all and make myself a whole load of money accepting adverts from anyone and everyone. Fifty flashing boxes advertising cheap pharmaceuticals anyone? No, i thought not.
Our sponsors are professional, reliable and trustworthy. This is why they are rewarded with being the only advertiser in their field as well as being our way of saying thank you for supporting us.
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@ joeyboygolf (again)
I note that Lee has recently spent some time in Struer. Of course he might be sheering sheep, it must be getting warmer in Denmark. Alternatively.........
The last time i went to Struer was the launch of the BeoSound 5. I'm not sure which travel agent you have tipping you off, but he needs to be off your payroll !!
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@ KingOfSnake
Personally I think whereas Lee has done a good job with the Beoworld site it is independent from what?
BeoWorld is independent from Bang & Olufsen.
Lee has commercial interests and given the analysis of Hardwriter and the absence of advertising from any other reseller company is indicative of the accuracy of this IMHO.
See my response to Hardwriter.
If we go back to the old chesnut that advertising from only one genre then it at least puts B&O's position in doubt, but then again the position was also that the site wasn't to become an advertising horse - obviously Keith's ad, Sounds Heavenly, Struer Design and STB Brackets at the foot of the page are touching on this too.
Do we have an advert on here for someone else that manufactures new Bang & Olufsen products? I take on board your point about us not becoming an advertising horse though, which is why i have consulted you all first. Please bear in mind, at the end of the day i could do whatever i liked. I respect the members that make this site what it is immensely, and would never do anything in contravention of their wishes. Besides, the moderating team wouldn't let me!
But maybe time to move on, let B&O advertise in my view. There will be indirect benefits to Lee and his Company but also to the site as a whole with improved prizes and so on.
Indirect benefits to LifeStyle AV? How? Bang & Olufsen are in the process of creating a second life database scheme that could destroy LifeStyle AV, morethanav and Iconic AV in one swoop. The mere fact i'm setting this aside is testament to the fact i'm totally unbiased when it comes to BeoWorld.
Finally, yes - if we have improved prizes - great!
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So, i hope that answers all your questions and concerns. This reply has taken me all afternoon to write!
I think we should go ahead, see where it goes, and if we don't like it - we say!
Lee