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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 05-06-2009 12:27 PM by Alex. 44 replies.
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  • 04-29-2009 6:52 AM

    Does vintage B&O sound better?

    In a recent thread (“Some thoughts on B&O, Beoworld and life”, I mentioned  that I had taken my first tentative steps into vintage B&O and bought a 1979 Beocenter 4000 very cheaply on ebay.  Well the beast arrived yesterday, and, apart from some less than enthusiastic comments from my good lady (“It’s arrived then.  Well don’t think I’m going to allow that houseroom” - I have a strategy for dealing with such unbridled resistance, but this has yet to be tested for proof of concept!)

    Anyway, I had a spare hour, so I attached a mains plug – the very limits of my technical competence – and plugged it in.  Lights came on so I thought I’d test a cassette, listening through a pair of Form 2s (No passive speakers).   Well, the results were astonishing.

    Detail, impact, depth were all excellent (for a cassette, anyway).  Speed was stable with no audible wow or flutter.  Tried another tape, one I recorded from record over 20 years ago.  Same result.  And I haven’t even cleaned the heads yet! Tried the same tapes and headphones with my BS 2500, and the sound wasn’t really comparable.  Less clarity, almost as if a veil was drawn over the music. 

    So I tried the FM section – on both Radios 3 and 4 with a lash up aerial arrangement using a B&O  rabbit’s ear antenna  balanced against some books.  Again,  excellent,  although with a bit of hiss.  I’m starting to worry now – can this 30 year old beast sound better than what is to all intents and purposes a current B&O product.

    This morning, drag beast to connect to external 10 element FM aerial on roof (I’m serious about radio).  Play with presets and settle down to listening to Radio 3 with Form 1s this time .  Excellent, full bodied sound no hiss, no drift – really good.  Dear old 2500 doesn’t sound as good as this.

    I know the BC 4000 has a similar pedigree to the BM4400 beloved by many and that the cassette section has slightly simplified mechanics from the Beocord 5000, but this is 30 years old and hasn’t, from the cosmetic condition of the unit, been particularly well looked after!  And I’m not even listening on particularly revealing headphones. 

    Then I wondered if this reflects not so much the inherent quality of the BC4000 but the poor quality of current B&O headphone socketry as opposed to the old 5mm socket on the BC4000.  I know Peter has a very low opinion of the socket on his BC2, and I was wondering if this may be why the 4000 sounds so much better through headphones than my much later vintage 2500.

    If not -  if the older, classic products from the 70s and 80s such as the BM 4400 and the MS75/100 are really better sounding than the later kit (Forget BL5s and 9s for a minute) would I be better looking to the past for any changes?  

    I’ve already tracked down a pair of S45.2s on stands to go with the BC4000 (although I may be living in the garage by then).  If I could find a good example of a CDX, is it really possible that, for really very little outlay, I could buy something that sounds better than much of the later stuff, active loudspeakers and all?  I listen almost exclusively to classical (baroque mostly) and modern jazz.  I prefer well balanced, natural recordings and I listen to live music as much as I can.

    Any advice, thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

     Cleve

  • 04-29-2009 7:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Hi Cleve

    yes many vintage products from 1960 to 1990 sounds much better and that is not only b&o many japanese products from that period do the same.I think it's due to the fact that they were fitted to pure analog sound and the lack of using chip's and processors to cope with digital devices(eks MP3).About speakers its more difficult because two different persons don't hear the sound from a speaker the same way and also the room(acustic) and the placement of speakers has great influence to the sound

    regards

    ja

  • 04-29-2009 7:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    I have an 80's Beomaster 6000 with a CDX playing through some recapped and refoamed MC120.2's and in my opinion it sounds much nicer than, say an ouverture and either BL6000's or BL8000's. I would even say that at normal listening levels I prefer the MC120's over pentas although the pentas get better the higher the volume.

    I am sure if I splashed out and got some BL5s or BL9's it would sound nicer but as a system that has cost me about £200 all in it would, I expect, knock the socks off of a lot of more modern systems, B&O or otherwise.

    I would recommend recapping the speakers as it does make a noticable improvement and is an easy and rewarding little job.

  • 04-29-2009 8:01 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Modern equipment can be very good - The BL5 is wonderful. However good old equipment was very good and remains so. Pick the right equipment and you will match most modern equipment and often beat it. Remember the 2500 was definitely a mid-range product when released so you cannot expect it to match something which was top of the line. A well known B&O lover recently took his CDX along to a Hi-Fi magazine editor and compared it to a number of modern products - analogue and digital. It was felt that it matched or outperformed almost anything else. The Beomaster 2200 on which your BC4000 is based is a real jewel of an amplifier and the tuner is excellent as well. Get some decent speakers - S45-2s are good but do lack ultimate bass - S120s or MC120.2s are superb and I love my M100s though you need a decent sized room. That set up will make you realise what BL6000s and 8000s lack. They also show that Pentas cannot match the bass in accuracy. You do however lose convenience, remote control and design. I wish that the CD player in the present range had as good a DAC as the TDA1541in the CD5500 or even the TDA1540 in the CDX! Sound now can often be harsh and bright as if they are searching for detail. In my view, sometimes this makes sounds that are not true to the original recording. But it is what 'people' want these days!

  • 04-29-2009 8:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Nice post. I can't call myself competent at comparing amplifiers - and I haven't really listened to anything less than 15 years old from the B&O repertoire - but I can second your opinion in radios in general. There has been a lot of work on tuners in the recent decade or two, but it has mostly gone into integrating them further and making them cheaper. For many of the youngsters the tuner is just a side effect they mostly don't use anyway.

    Making a modern integrated tuner with RDS and everything requires pretty complicated mixed-mode IC design, and involves a lot of compromises. I'm afraid the people competent in designing a well performing discrete radio front-end are going away, as well! If you go to the literature part of the site and read the document on the design of Beomaster 4400, you get some idea what it required. And the result is still excellent today - I would expect the 60's Beomaster 5000 to hold its own quite well against most any modern tuner as well!

    But there are some misses in the vintage radios as well. I have two Beolit 707's, and while they sound absolutely brilliant in good conditions, they suffer badly from cross modulation in the presence of strong signals, which usually means a front-end of limited capability (well there were a lot of design constraints in battery operation those days). Could be that they have drifted out of spec, though; I haven't really started restoration work on them yet.

    -mika

  • 04-29-2009 9:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Hi Cleve

    You are far from alone in your thoughts! I have had similar thoughts to you ever since I read this thread a while ago

    http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/5593/40645.aspx#40645

    For those without the time to read through the whole thread, essentially nobody on the thread suggests that an expensive pair of Beolab 8000s  matches up to the sound quality of a pair of redline 60's from 20 years go, which certainly surprised me!

    When I started acquiring second hand B&O a couple of years ago I assumed I would progress in time to the newer active speakers. I currently have a Beosystem 5000 playing through a pair of S45-2's and it is becoming clear to me that if I want to secure a significant increase in sound quality from the current rage I would have to buy a set of Lab 9's which are way out of my reach financially and probably not suitable for a house with small children in it, so I don't see myself upgrading for the foreseeable future.

    Used Pentas are an option but as almost all of my listening is at low/medium volume levels (never been above 3.4 on by Beomaster 5000) I am still not sure how much improvement I would see on a day to day basis.

    I am becoming increasingly convinced that vintage B&O represents the best value Hi-fi you can get anywhere. I definetely agree that recapping your S45-2s would be a good idea, they made a huge difference to mine!

     

     

    Simon

     

     

     

  • 04-29-2009 9:28 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    in short, i would say yes, but... i think it is simply a different sound.

    IMHO...

    bm4400 + mc120.2 =  WARMTH

    bs9000 + actives (discounting bl5 or 9) = CLINICAL

    i like both!

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 04-29-2009 9:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Most A/V these days are assembled chip-sets, with different modules from off-the-shelf suppliers being combined - very few companies do in-house development.

    From the 60s to the early 90s, B&O and other quality companies spent a crazy amount of resources developing turntables, tuners, amp's. B&O realized they had let their engineers go completely overboard with the Beogram 4000, and took a hard look at the parts catalogue before letting them build the 4002, for instance.

    My Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 separate amp and tuner are solid from here to Pluto (no longer a planet!) Excellent construction and sound. The Beogram 5000-7000 CD-players have been built to platinum standards. The Beomaster amp's in the same series likewise.

    In fact, some of the finest bargains to be found are in vintage HiFi, because people think it's junk, unaware of the exceptional quality. You just have to be on the look-out. For instance, a lot of people will connect their iPods to cheap, plastic speakers, and retire their Marantz or Tandberg super-amp's because they think they can't connect the iPod to them ... (sigh!)

    Consider this Marantz tuner, for instance, with an oscilloscope for the precise acquisition of an FM-signal!

     

    Or just the sheer beaty and joy of a Beomaster 1200, with a Beogram 1200 (and if you can find the Beocord 1200 tape-deck that goes with it, you're in heaven). Well, I just found a white, Beocord 1200 tape deck, in good order, for DKK 900. Hurry!
    http://www.dba.dk/asp/soegning/detail.asp?annonceid=60027920

    I listen to my Beolab 5000 nearly every day - very happy - and thinking of getting Classic-Audio to refurbish the original speaker-set that goes with it. The Dynaudio speakers I'm using now would pay for that, if I sell them second-hand, and I would get something that would be one-of-a-kind -- and which has great sound, to boot.

    Unfortunately, people think these items are worthless, so they'll often throw them away, not even bothering to offer it through net classifieds , etc.
    A friend of mine in Stockholm responded to an ad in blocket.se, someone who were practically giving away a Beomaster 1200, Beogram 1200, with speakers. Went to pick them up - one owner, had treated them with reverence, but were moving, and wondered if my friend would like to have his LPs for the effort it would take to carry them down to his car? 800 LPs later ...

    Just look at this, in Denmark. For DKK 800, you get a Beomaster 4400, recently serviced, with two speakers.

    http://www.dba.dk/asp/soegning/detail.asp?annonceid=60034530

    Here's someone selling a 4400, a Beogram 4004, a pair of speakers, as well as the original B&O console table for DKK 3.800.

    http://www.dba.dk/asp/soegning/detail.asp?annonceid=59643475

  • 04-29-2009 11:26 AM In reply to

    • PentaIII
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    This post has really inspired me to get out my Beomaster 8000, Beogram 8002 and Beocord 8002.  I've had them for years but haven't really spent time with them...they're so darn heavy to move around though and finding a nice place for them without my partner screaming at me will be hard to avoid!

    I've got a few sets of different passive speakers but am not sure which would be the best for the system.  Is the system worth dusting off? 

  • 04-29-2009 2:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Are you kidding???

    The Beomaster 8000 is the most powerfull reciver B&O has ever done and it's still a flagship.

    I enjoy mine on a daily basis and it's a very dynamic, powerfull, neutral reciver that really is not dated anyway.

    It's simple to use and still a king of a system. If it's a complete working system it will still keep you smile as it will keep it's value.

    What kind of speakers do you got?

     

  • 04-29-2009 2:38 PM In reply to

    • PentaIII
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Of the passives I have two sets of RL6000, a pair of S45's but I've got a good friend who has two sets of MS150's that I could kindly ask to borrow which would probably be best.  The only problem is finding space for everything.

  • 04-29-2009 2:40 PM In reply to

    • Evan
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    I agree with what ja said up there near the top. My '88 BM4500 is fantastic and I also have a Yamaha R-7 Natural Sound from around that period as well as a newer Yamaha Natural Sound from around '02 and the R-7 wins hands down. Today's new stuff is nice, but it can't compete with old schoolCool.

    Evan

     

  • 04-29-2009 3:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    The Beovox MS150 is the best match if you ain't got Beovox Penta's.

    RL6000 may be able to do it but S45 may not as the Beomaster 8000 has 100 -150 watt depending on how many speaker setups you plug into it.

    The Beovox MS150 is the speakers the Beomaster 8000 is born with. As you have 2 setups aviable get'em.

    Since I started playing around with my Beovox speakers as 2 speaker pairs on my Beomaster 6000 and 8000 I find it hard to live on a single pair.

     

  • 04-29-2009 3:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    You have been fortunate in picking up a Beomaster that is probably one of the most underrated units, or rather it is pretty much forgotten than under appreciated.

    Another unit that would surprise you for the detail and easily listenable would be the Beomaster 3000 - or its Beocentre equivalent  the Beocentre 3500. The latter usually sell for less than the Beomaster 3000, partly because they do not ship well and also its not easy to find a good one whose lid operates properly - they do sound good so if one comes up within driving distance you could get yourself a bargain.

    Some units need to be paired up with the right speakers, the Beomaster 1001 or Beomaster 1200 really does need to be connected to Beovox 1200.

    The Beovox 45-2 are a brilliant speaker as long as you keep them well within their limits, most of us truly do not need much else, but if you do need too much the Beovox 5700 or the Beovox MS150 are nicely excessive - I prefer the former because they have a more neutral sound.

    The '60 Beolab 5000 is far better than the speakers it was designed for, this is a very dynamic amplifier, more so than anything in the Beomaster 1900 through to Beomaster 4500 range. The only things that outshine it are the Beomaster 8000, Beomaster 5000, Beomaster 4400.

    I've always hankered after the Beolab 1 speakers, but there are a number of issues, the Beolab 8000 seem to rate quite highly but I for one would prefer to get my hands on the 3 way units rather than the 2 way ones - they are apparently a bit bass light. The pentas were a much better option.

    After that you suddenly find most of the options have limitations that should not occur, the Beolab 6000 are only fit for tv surround sound and not as hifi speakers in themselves, the Beolab5 whilst superb needs lots of space, so that leaves the Beolab 9s - not cheap but apparently well rated.

    The old stuff does have its merits, but to get the best you'd best be prepared to do some maintenance, age takes its toll, your other option is to try outbid everyone else when Martin (Dillen) is selling anything on EBAY - and good luck on that - he has done all this work for you and we all know it!

  • 04-29-2009 4:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Agree completely about the BM1200 - sounds very odd through S45s but with BV1200s, it is remarkably good.The Beolab 5000 amplifier is also wonderful I agree. A bit more exciting to listen to than some of the others, I would guess it has a bit of a peak at the top end but is, as Casdave says, dynamic and simply pleasurable to listen to. Also completely agree about Martin and his products. Beautifully presented and he clearly has quite a following on eBay who recognise his work!

  • 04-29-2009 5:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Well who would disagree with Martin/Dillen anyway?

    If it was not for him I do wonder if I still would be looking for a working Beogram 8002.

     

  • 04-29-2009 5:42 PM In reply to

    • PD
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    burantek:

    in short, i would say yes, but... i think it is simply a different sound.

    IMHO...

    bm4400 + mc120.2 =  WARMTH

    bs9000 + actives (discounting bl5 or 9) = CLINICAL

    i like both!

     

     

    I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with this neat little summation - I've got my BM6500 running through RL140s & it's a gorgeously warm sound compared to a BC2 running through BL5s on which I've played the same CD & whilst every little inflection is there, it lacks the overall richness somehow. Devil

    PD "The difference betwixt erotic & kinky is that betwixt using a feather & using a chicken..."

  • 04-29-2009 6:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Curious about posts going to moderation here. Sent one to this thread about midday! Surprise

  • 04-29-2009 7:30 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    It doesn't matter Soundproof, your Avatar says it all!Smile

    I have a turntable, CD player and Mp3 player connected to my 1960s Beosystem 5000 (Purchased from Casdave above)
    There is not a lot that can beat it in this modern day.
    Heck, even my little Beomaster 900K has a mellow tone that I really like.

    Andy T.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 04-29-2009 9:10 PM In reply to

    • Dave
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Well i haven't yet had the privillege to play with the older stuff, but the oldest B&O i've had was the ouverture/2500, and it was a pretty poor performer. Not really a great product to compare to, the best sound i've experience with all my stuff )all new) is the headphone output of the beosound 4 > that is astonishing to me, would love to try out an old beocenter one day :) Would die for those mc120 or m100's too, they look NICE

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 04-30-2009 2:13 AM In reply to

    • Ignace
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    soundproof:

    Curious about posts going to moderation here. Sent one to this thread about midday! Surprise

    Indeed, i noticed it in the moderation section and clicked on approve.

    I guess it was automatically moderated by the forum software because of the multiple links it contains.

     

     

  • 05-01-2009 2:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Thanks for all your comment, advice and opinion. 

    It seems strange that, after returning to B&O in the early 1990s to get away from the constant game of upgrading, I’m now in danger of going to the other extreme by adding more rather than replacing pieces – I suppose that is the B&O curse.

    Buying the BC 4000 was very much a whim involving no major financial outlay, but having discovered the joys of the BC 4000’s sound, where do I go now?  Disregarding all the domestic hassle I am bound to generate, there are two concerns

    Like most lovers of B&O, I believe the aesthetics are at least as important as the sound.  The BC 4000 needs a lot of work to come up to the cosmetic standards most of us demand.  My BS2500/Beosystem 10/LX5500/MX1500/Form1s/Form2s/ A8s and Beocom 1400 are all absolutely mint.  The BC4000 whilst not in really bad condition, has a major scratch on the aluminium centre plate, the two damped covers are missing their hinges and need to be opened manually, the wood trim needs a good clean and some teak oil, and goodness only knows what the inside looks like. Whilst I dream of ‘restoring’ it, I am an incompetent.   I’ve had a look at the 2200 service manual on the site and felt sick!  I am sure as soon as I take the top plates and the veneered side pieces off, I’ll be lost. 

    A quick visit to Martin’s (Dillen) comments in various posts on problems with BM2200s and the other 2200 derivative , the BC3300, made me realise I may have bitten off more than I can chew.  If only the blasted thing didn’t sound so good and wasn’t quite so rare I wouldn’t care, but I want it to look and work as it should. What I need is a local Frede, living in some isolated cabin on Dartmoor, and to whom I can make pilgrimage, on foot if necessary.  

    The other concern is that I now want more pieces.   A CDX, (I used to have one in 1984 – in its Phillips’ guise as the CD104); a BC 9500 because it’s absolutely beautiful and a pair of white S45.2s to go with it or maybe some Mk1 BL4000s; a BM 4400 and a pair of M100s in Rosewood and that’s before I give any thought to re-entering the world of vinyl

    I have caught it, haven’t I – this dreadful addiction.  I blame you all.

    Oh,  by the way, which E-bay site does Martin use when he’s selling and what name does he go under?

    Cleve

  • 05-01-2009 3:11 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Big fan of the 4400! I have a boxed one (complete with original price tag, instructions, included U70 promotional leaflet & service manual), and it would be stunning if it was working Stick out tongue When it was working though, god did it sound impressive!

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 05-01-2009 5:46 PM In reply to

    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    There is nothing wrong with a Beovirus other than it can get crowed in your living space to the point of defending why you must have at least 2 of each as you can't live with just one.

    I have seen Martin's auctions on German ebay.de only and its always the name Dillen he uses. He is branded with that.

     

  • 05-01-2009 7:40 PM In reply to

    • Medogsfat
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    Re: Does vintage B&O sound better?

    Cleviebaby:

    A CDX, (I used to have one in 1984 – in its Phillips’ guise as the CD104); a BC 9500 because it’s absolutely beautiful and a pair of white S45.2s to go with it or maybe some Mk1 BL4000s; a BM 4400 and a pair of M100s in Rosewood and that’s before I give any thought to re-entering the world of vinyl

    Looks like you are a total loss now to the beovirus - these few product you have mentioned are amongst the "must have" items for the serious collector. Every one is a classic in its own right.

    As for vinyl - now you're talking BG4000 and a world of headaches to go along with finding/refurbishing one - hope you have plenty of time on your hands or know a man who hasBig Smile

    Oh - nearly forgot - does vintage B&O sound better? As far as the audio systems go - for me - definately. I own 2 real main sound systems, BS5500 paired with completely refurbished MC 120.2 speakers & a BS7000 with penta's and for the money nothing on the market comes close. Of course I would dearly love some BL5's or 9's but just cannot afford either. Having said that the vintage systems have a srange honesty about them which has been ironed out with todays digital technology and leaves modern systems sonding too sterile for my liking. After all, proper music isn't actually produced digitally so why should it be recorded or replayed thus?

    Martins ebay user name is dillen_de but to be honest if you are looking to buy something from him then I wouldn't bother with eaby and just contact him directly via this site, it would save a lot of hassle and crooked ebay expenses.

    Chris.

    The use of metaphors should be avoided like the plague. They're like a red rag to a bull to me.

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