Hi all.  I've posted this elsewhere, but thought I should put it here because I'd be interested in other people's opinions.

I was talking about B&O's struggle in a market of cheap "disposable" DVD players/flatscreens, and what areas they can compete in, and I reckon one product B&O could sell is a turntable.  

Vinyl is on the increase.  Ok, it's a small market, and certainly a cheap unit wouldn't be any use. However a decent linear-track turntable with a built-in RIAA and some subtle technology would be an addition to their range that wouldn't cost much in R&D, and would sell outside the B&O market too.  

Think I'm wrong?  Well, how come resellers are able to charge well in excess of £500 for a 20 year-old second-hand turntable with a few scratches, probably dying cartridge, no box and no guarantee?  You only have to look at eBay every week to see I'm right.  And this is for the "lightweight" turntables that are all exactly the same fairly cheap & flimsy machine! The decent turntables (400x) go for much less, but still are selling well.

A small footprint, datalink turntable like the lightweights, but with decent build quality & materials like the 400x's, using the induction-drive like the 800x's, that is easy to use with any system B&O or otherwise would sell for a LOT.  £2000?  I'd pay it if it was all that....

But would you?  Or do you think I am mad?  Your thoughts please...

I love my turntables but I do not think that it would make sense for B&O to make a new one. The set up costs would be high and remember that there are a lot of bespoke parts and that B&O no longer have the same manufacturing capacity as in the 70s and 80s. The market is small for vinyl and the share for a B&O deck is even smaller. Very few would be bought outside the B&O ranks as even in their heyday, not many people bought Beograms as a seperate. Datalink no longer exists as the modern systems use RCA plugs so remote control will be problematic and turntable technicians will have all retired or moved on.

Luckily I have quite a few turntables myself!!

Hi there,

First, I don't think you're mad....

Like many of the B&O enthousiasts I still have vinyl records to play once in a while ( and I love it..)
I sold my B&O turntable back in the mid-eighties, but continued to play records on my thrusty Technics and Lenco decks, till last year when I just could not resist temptation and bought a beogram 5500 of ebay. Looks good, sounds good, really happy with it.

Indeed the prices of secondhand B&O turntables seem fairly high, but imo the value is made by the hard to find replacement mmc cartridges.
There are a couple of turntables for sale locally here (non of which have cartridges) starting at 20$ for a decent looking TX2 up to 80$ for a 4002.

Vinyl is on the increase, but will remain a niche market at best in the rest of it's lifetime, so personally I don't think B&O should invest in producing a new turntable., not even if it's the best turntable ever made and... not even at the price you set. 

I fully agree with B&O going the digital road and should concentrate looking forward instead of back.
 

Peter :

I love my turntables but I do not think that it would make sense for B&O to make a new one. The set up costs would be high and remember that there are a lot of bespoke parts and that B&O no longer have the same manufacturing capacity as in the 70s and 80s. The market is small for vinyl and the share for a B&O deck is even smaller. Very few would be bought outside the B&O ranks as even in their heyday, not many people bought Beograms as a seperate. Datalink no longer exists as the modern systems use RCA plugs so remote control will be problematic and turntable technicians will have all retired or moved on.

Luckily I have quite a few turntables myself!!

Well I can agree with the crux of that, but lots of the designs/plans/theory/etc already exists. Sending a plan for an assembly to a Chinese/etc  factory saying "make those" wouldn't cost much... remote control shouldn't be very difficult to implement if it is being designed-in (and isn't essential).  Technicians are trained for new equipment, so why not for a new turntable? 

Perhaps I should also ask: If B&O did make a new Beogram that was something like I've described (good quality, not insane price) would you buy it?

cooldude:

Hi there,

First, I don't think you're mad....

That in itself is reassuring

cooldude:

Vinyl is on the increase, but will remain a niche market at best in the rest of it's lifetime, so personally I don't think B&O should invest in producing a new turntable., not even if it's the best turntable ever made and... not even at the price you set. 

I didn't think it was a bad price....  I'm by no means rich, but compared to other B&O, other manufacturers turntables.. it seemed reasonable.

cooldude:

I fully agree with B&O going the digital road and should concentrate looking forward instead of back.

So there's no way a new Beogram would tempt you to upgrade your 5500?

Well, it better not be as silly as this one. The growth in the sales of record players has been substantial, but I think that B&O should work with high-resolution, multi-channel playback, rather than record players. Vinyl's a fashion accessory for most, more than a practical playback option, unless you spend an absolute fortune on the players, and even then you end up using your harddisk-playback more ...

soundproof:

Well, it better not be as silly as this one. The growth in the sales of record players has been substantial, but I think that B&O should work with high-resolution, multi-channel playback, rather than record players. Vinyl's a fashion accessory for most, more than a practical playback option, unless you spend an absolute fortune on the players, and even then you end up using your harddisk-playback more ...

It would be difficult to be that silly.  The Cleartone Statement.  Their statement -  we can charge people a fortune for something as ergonomic as a pile of broken bricks.

Turntables like this drive me mad, because underneath all that silliness it's probably not that good. 

And some say B&O has a small customer base? Only a certain kind of loon buys something like that....

I still think the production cost of a new turntable would be small compared to some products, and if it was good it would sell to non-B&O customers... but I agree it is hardly a cash cow.

rayfenwick:

cooldude:

Hi there,

First, I don't think you're mad....

That in itself is reassuring

cooldude:

Vinyl is on the increase, but will remain a niche market at best in the rest of it's lifetime, so personally I don't think B&O should invest in producing a new turntable., not even if it's the best turntable ever made and... not even at the price you set. 

I didn't think it was a bad price....  I'm by no means rich, but compared to other B&O, other manufacturers turntables.. it seemed reasonable.

cooldude:

I fully agree with B&O going the digital road and should concentrate looking forward instead of back.

So there's no way a new Beogram would tempt you to upgrade your 5500?

 

 

Nope, not really tempted as I don't use it enough (a couple of records on the weekend) to merit an upgrade. I did buy the 5500 more out of a design point-of-view as it integrates with the rest of my system and is just about as good as my technics deck that was on its way out.

pro : Just love the clean design, the integration with my system and the ability to use the remote with it .

contra : sounds about as good as my old technics one  but B&O cartridges are about as expensive as their weight in gold.....

@soundproof ..... LMAO 3.5 min to change records , that must be a new .....record.

Is exactly what I would hate it to be.

It's not silly but does it fit in with the current products?

Is there a marked that can pay the price?

I can't say that I would buy one if they made one today. Would love to see it be done.

I play records fairly often and do not keep music on a hardrive format for listning and enjoying the music.

Records takes good care but its a habit using them. Cd's are easy, Ipods even more but its a lifestyle and a bit of how much you are into playing music. Music on a harddisk format does not work for me. The thought of just a Beosound 9000 is strange to me.  

As long as my 2 Beograms can be serviced they will last a long time and that includes the catridges I have.

I couldn't say goodbye to my records.  Some of them have been there my whole life, some were my fathers, and I will pass them on to my children, who will probably hate them, but that will be their choice.

Others are just getting into it.  Teenagers are buying vinyl, and for them it is first time around...

People may think it is silly to talk of a new turntable.  But go back 10 years and you'd have the said the same about valve amps...  yet people are spending (and making!) a fortune.

Fad? Fashion?  Sure. But, some people out there will be buying A N Other's turntable to go with their new B&O system, and that's a pity, no matter how you look at it...

cooldude:

@soundproof ..... LMAO 3.5 min to change records , that must be a new .....record.

Is exactly what I would hate it to be.

Indeed.  Plus, he's fairly useless with a carbon fibre brush, and he gave the arm a mighty thump when cleaning the stylus.  I wouldn't let him near my Koetsu, that's for sure! (not that I have one...)

I don't think B&O should do turntables again as they need to look forward and not back.

What they could do is allow a 3rd Party Company to make a turntable to one of the vintage designs like they did with Soundsmith and cartridges. They could find a niche market if well made.

Simon

wirralsimon:

I don't think B&O should do turntables again as they need to look forward and not back.

I agree with forward technologies, and indeed I have grumbled about this in the past - that B&O gets out-tech'd and out-spec'd by some stuff that costs much, much less, but...  I don't see why making a turntable should prevent any of that?  I'm not suggesting they stop making digital equipment:

Look at Gibson guitars - a premium brand that makes some new tech, but also produces guitars that are almost 100 years old in design... Sure they took a bashing as the market changed, but they're not doing bad at all with a mix of old and new....

or Marshall Amplifiers...

or Caterham cars...

or Aga ranges...

wirralsimon:

What they could do is allow a 3rd Party Company to make a turntable to one of the vintage designs like they did with Soundsmith and cartridges. They could find a niche market if well made.

That's true enough, but then someone else would get the profit/kudos... I mean, some Beoworlders were talking (however idly) about buying a £100,000 giant plasma.  And if B&O believe there's profit (albeit probably indirect) in that....

If there is one company in the world that can produce a turntable that is ergonomic, subtle and good enough to make that Cleartone and its ilk look like pretentious tat then it is B&O.  

I do use my Beogram 4000, and buy the occasional record -- while I also register that my record store keeps adding more and more vinyl. Statistics show that vinyl is the fastest growing category -- so it's not a wild idea. But audiophile sound is going in the direction of high-resolution and multi-channel, and B&O should be well placed to gain credibility there, while it also supports their desire to sell more speakers ...

Record players with audiophile credibility are wildly complex Rube Goldberg contraptions that sell at absurd prices, we wouldn't want that.

I kept my Beosystem 6500 and got a Beolab 5000 precisely because I wanted to have the option of playing records, so don't think I'm against the format -- just don't know if it's what B&O should focus on, now that they are pressed for funds?

soundproof:

<snip>
don't think I'm against the format -- just don't know if it's what B&O should focus on, now that they are pressed for funds?

 

I certainly don't think it should be the focus of their cash, or their efforts, or their strategy. And yes, I agree about multi channel being a good vehicle for B&O's speakers (which has been where the money is...)  

Does anyone else think that a turntable could make a profit for B&O?  I am not thinking of iPod ubiquity of course, but then I'm not talking about re-inventing the wheel (pun intended).  Directly from sales, or indirectly from publicity which leads to sales of other products I think it could make money.

Combining the strengths of previous Beograms into a turntable that has the looks, the tech and the sound to grab a share of the new vinyl pie - however much of a fad it may be - seems to me like a probable good return for putting together stuff they already know how to do.

Going back to valves/vacuum tubes:  a comparatively ancient technology that has found a new lease of life.  Once dormant factories in Russia, waiting to be pulled down and redeveloped have now been dusted off and are making valves again.  Chinese factories are making 50 year old valves...

From high-end thousands of pounds monobloc power amps, phono preamps, headphone amps, even iPod amps...  this is a technology that was once labelled deceased that now is in demand and making money, and the same is happening with vinyl.

Of course neither are mass-market items found in every home, but then since when has that been B&O's territory anyway?   B&O have always been a high-end niche market brand, and I don't think that a turntable is a departure from that.

Of course I may be wrong...

That turntable in the video is ridiculous, but i want one.!!!

I love my vinyl and play it more than CD (but not as much as MP3). There is something interactive about putting on a record. It somehow makes you listen. I listen to full recordings when i play a record when i play CD or MP3 it's all to easy to skip over stuff i wouldn't ordinarily give a chance to. With vinyl i am forced to listen and this gives me a better insight into the artist.

That being said, B&O should definately not make another TT. I think there are two ends of the TT spectrum. Those who will spend 10's of thousands or those that will maybe spend $1000. B&O would fit right in the middle of that, and those with 5k to spend on a TT will spend 10K for a far superior product and those with 1k to spend won't spend 5K. Then of course there are those who will only spend a couple of hundred and buy a cheap plastic piece of rubbish that will probably do more harm than good to their vinyl. But that's another story.

I know what you mean.  I have almost never not listened to an LP in entirety  

Harry1:

That being said, B&O should definately not make another TT. I think there are two ends of the TT spectrum. Those who will spend 10's of thousands or those that will maybe spend $1000. B&O would fit right in the middle of that, and those with 5k to spend on a TT will spend 10K for a far superior product and those with 1k to spend won't spend 5K. 

Well I can see what you mean.  But then I think that B&O's turntable qualities combined into a new machine would be able to compete with exotica that is much more expensive.  B&O has always avoided the plethora of knobs/dials/switches for stuff that most people simply don't need, and eschewed the nonsense of 'cables rolled on thighs of virgins' and other such bilge that so often goes with Hi-Fi.

Some people think machines like the Cleartone are marvellous - and in some ways they are.  But some people will be put off from vinyl because such a machine is an almost impenetrable faff of epic proportions.  

Centre clamps, vacuums, edge rings, air pumps...manipulating an arm that is as fragile as it is unwieldy as it is expensive....  some people want to put a record on the turntable and press play. B&O can make a turntable that is simple to use, unobtrusive, and sounds very very good indeed - better than some of the stuff costing much more.

They did it in the 70's-mid 80's, and I believe they could do it again...

To cover the high cost, you could always get a combination oil rig and turntable!

Well it has the ergonomics, size and price, so why not the looks?

Actually, some of you might remember its older brother...

rayfenwick:

I agree with forward technologies, and indeed I have grumbled about this in the past - that B&O gets out-tech'd and out-spec'd by some stuff that costs much, much less, but...  I don't see why making a turntable should prevent any of that?  I'm not suggesting they stop making digital equipment:

Look at Gibson guitars - a premium brand that makes some new tech, but also produces guitars that are almost 100 years old in design... Sure they took a bashing as the market changed, but they're not doing bad at all with a mix of old and new....

or Marshall Amplifiers...

or Caterham cars...

or Aga ranges...

All of the above companies combine modern technology with 'Retro' appeal which is a valid strategy for making money, but it isn't the market space that B&O operate in.

Simon

Something like this?

that record player is obscene!! i love it...

As I have a Beogram 5005 for sale currently, I'd appreciate it if B&O stayed out of the turntable sector and concentrated solely on electronic storage mediums for the foreseeable thank you very much ;)

I don't think they should as it's going back in time - It's unlikely that there would be a big enough market for TT or Reel to Reel or Cassette Decks = regardless of who makes them.

I have a B&O turntable and love it and there are plenty of second hand ones out there. I also quite like vintage garrard decks and looking at e-bay there are some offered for sale in the states that have been restored - they look great (wouldn't work here though) and perhaps this could be a business opportunity for someone? - It would be great to be able to buy a b&O turntable that has been fully restored and in as-new condition. I can get my Revox Tape Deck fully restored and guaranteed by a few reputable companies but not a beogram.

wirralsimon:

All of the above companies combine modern technology with 'Retro' appeal which is a valid strategy for making money, but it isn't the market space that B&O operate in.

I can see what you mean, but I think that anything made with wood, glass & metal, with the B&O styling is very retro in its appearance, and therein lies much of its appeal.  

Cheap  white plastic & blue LEDs is the current trend, after all...

B&O is visually like an Eames Lounge chair...  40-odd year old interpretation of the future.