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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 03-31-2009 8:06 PM by rayfenwick. 68 replies.
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  • 03-28-2009 8:52 PM In reply to

    • Dking63
    • Not Ranked
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    • Joined on 11-09-2008
    • York, PA USA
    • Posts 27
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    John,

    Just proof that us B&Oers are an awesome bunch. Your apology accepted. As for your boxing up your 6000, glad to hear it is only for a move, I better not find you've given up your B&O. No flat earthers or pseudo-scientists here.

    Thanks John

    Enjoy your evening.

    Dave

  • 03-28-2009 11:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Henri:

    Dking63:
    Appreciate the freedom of speech, I really mean not harm and I AGAIN teach my children to be RESPONABLE.

    I shouldn't really participate in this kind of conversations, but here we go anyway...

    Saving energy is a good thing, but I'm slightly tired of hearing all these scientific conversations about climate change and whether or not human activity is even capable of affecting climate in long-term, global scale - they always follow exactly the same pattern: in the end, when everything is said and done, the people who promote the human effect point of view end up admitting that there's no proof, but we should radically cut CO2 emissions "just in case". Personally, coming from a scientific background, I need proof before I believe any of this. The cyclic nature of climate more than explains everything we're experiencing at the moment and, oddly enough, the majority of global warming prophets are the very same people who made careers of preaching about the new ice age back in 70's and 80's. It wasn't quite as profitable back then, though.

    Of course I don't mind if someone else wants to play along and feel him-/herself a better person doing so. Religions are popular all around the world, too. Until there's hard, concrete, undisputable proof, count me out - no evidence, no case.

    My .02c...

     

    There is evidence showing that the current levels of carbon dioxide and methane (green house gasses) are the highest they have been for 650,000 years. We know this from analysis of gas bubbles trapped in ice at the poles several thousand metres below surface that would have formed 650,000 years ago. There is no doubt that we have caused this very recent increase in the levels of green house gasses because it has happened in such a short period of time. There is no doubt that green house gasses absorb heat more than nitrogen or oxygen in the atmosphere. Global warming and climate change are definitely occurring due to human activity. The world's climate is defintely changing in response and will continue to change if green house gasses increase further - which they seem to be as we do nothing to stop are dependence on fossil fuels. Who knows how severely the climate will be affected when we have burnt most of the fossil fuels and released the carbon into the atmosphere as CO2. Personally I think it will be disastrous.

     

  • 03-29-2009 3:04 AM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Earth hour

    Hardwriter:

    Demonstrating awareness won't overcome the problems of climate change - in fact, awareness initatives risk encouraging people to take decisions that SEEM to be beneficial but in reality are not.

    Where on earth did you get that idea from Erm

    I did not say awareness is all that is needed (that would be absurd), it is however the vital starting point, and without being aware of something, how the hell does one conjure a soloution for the issue at hand?

    Can you fix a door if you can't see that it's broken? Get my gist?

    The environment, involves, every, single, one of us.

     

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 03-29-2009 5:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Climate change has been discussed endlessly here in Finland recently.

    People with knowledge and "skepticism" (need hard evidence instead of a theory) are being overrun by "Women against global warming" -groups (no offense towards women, it just happens to be a name of a group)  and politicians with no scientific  background.

    Last week a minister in Finland lobbied for only electric driven cars by year XXXX (I can't remember the year).

    Now she seem to think this electrical power comes free. A professor of physics challenged her with facts. The following would be according to he be needed to power and reload these electric cars even if we dramatically would shrink out car-fleet in Finland down to 200.000 electrical vehicles (We have 2,5million cars):

    -6 ! new nuclear power plants (no point using coal or diesel if we are supposed to stop CO2) Wind, water sun etc. technologies don't work well in Finland. Since all cars must be able to reload at the same time. 

    -A reasonable time to reload your car could be an hour. Yes you could also slow load your car during the night, but people will forget, and longer journeys will be required. Imagine the hour wait at the "gas station" people will spend money on things they don't need just to kill the wait. 

    So loading your car battery you will draw power equal to 7 home stoves, with four plates on max and using the owen at full power. This for an hour during load-up. Must be possible to have thousands of cars filling up at the same time... Combined with the normal day-to-day usage of electric energy... We need 6 nuclear power plants.

    If we mention 1 new nuclear power plant, we have half the county shouting "judgment day". 

    This is just another example how politicians and so called environmentalists consultants are talking bonkers.

    Imagine the energy and CO2 spent building this country-wide network of electric gas stations.

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 03-29-2009 6:06 AM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Earth hour

    It's a HUGE run-around-a-bush. This post is great, and just seeing that someone / people understand the see saw ride toward a soloution, is encouraging.

    We'll get there... wind, solar etc etc looks promising to me, if it can be done properly, but alot of people will need to unite with the same conclusion for anything to change. Once we have electricity from these natural forms, we can THEN look at building with new energy sources such as hydrogen to power our cars.

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 03-29-2009 6:27 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: Earth hour

    We can talk about it until the cows come home - how many folk here are driving the recent generation of very small, highly efficent diesel cars to minimise their emmssions? How many have chosen not to purchase Large flat panel TV's because of the increased power usage?

    The list could go on and on - the point being most folk are aware but few have taken many real steps that impact directly on their lifestyle.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 03-29-2009 9:55 AM In reply to

    • Henri
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 02-15-2009
    • Posts 66
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    beodude:
    There is no doubt that we have caused this very recent increase in the levels of green house gasses because it has happened in such a short period of time.

    It's still only speculation at best. The vast majority of recent "research" has concentrated in efforts to prove the greenhouse hypothesis, as a desparate effort to keep the cash cow of the millennium alive and kicking. All contradicting data has been systematically swept under the carpet - many of you may know that recorded historical meteorological data about weather phenomenons does only date back to the beginning of industrial revolution, but how many have even heard that data dating centuries further back in time has been recovered from ships' logbooks in maritime museums, not to mention that this data describes in detail weather phenomenons identical to those attributed to current climate change. This is yet another case of real, recorded facts vs. speculation with coarse in silico modeling that's based only on assumptions.

    Absolutely, positively nothing new under the sun. Create hysteria, claim to have the solution to the global problem you created, make loads of money.

    Food for thought.

  • 03-29-2009 12:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Henri:

    beodude:
    There is no doubt that we have caused this very recent increase in the levels of green house gasses because it has happened in such a short period of time.

    All contradicting data has been systematically swept under the carpet - many of you may know that recorded historical meteorological data about weather phenomenons does only date back to the beginning of industrial revolution, but how many have even heard that data dating centuries further back in time has been recovered from ships' logbooks in maritime museums, not to mention that this data describes in detail weather phenomenons identical to those attributed ...

     

    Henri, forget about weather phenomenons, the fact is the ratio of gasses trapped in the ice bubbles is definitive proof of what the atmosphere was like hundreds of thousands of years ago. The amount of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere directly alters the temperature of the planet. Scientists know this from studying other planets in our solar system which have gasseous atmospheres of methane and other greenhouse gasses that turn out to be much hotter than expected to be as a result.

    Forget our own histories from ship log books etc, our own planet and solar system is capable of telling us the whole story since it was formed from direct evidence gathered from the earth itself. It is simply a matter of time. 

    I agree that there is also evidence contrary to global warming eg solar sunspots causing climate change to occur, but I don't believe any of them to be as strong theories as the evidence for global warming.

     

  • 03-29-2009 12:53 PM In reply to

    • Henri
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 02-15-2009
    • Posts 66
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    beodude:
    Henri, forget about weather phenomenons, the fact is the ratio of gasses trapped in the ice bubbles is definitive proof of what the atmosphere was like hundreds of thousands of years ago.

    Considering that only "proof" that gas concentration (partial pressure) has virtually anything to do with atmospheric phenomenons is in man-made, highly speculative calculation formulas. Along with the fact that the astronomy has yet to discover one single planet - among billions known - that has warmed at all during any significant period of time. Planet earth is not a supernova.

    As a pseudoscientific scam this climate change hysteria is simply ingenious - all "proof" is so vague and claims so well marketed that finding scientific evidence to support or contradict it is impossible. A religion, nothing more, nothing less, and we're in the middle of its worldwide inquisition as we speak.

  • 03-29-2009 9:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    This is certainly a debate and a half!

    A few years ago my IT contract had ended, and so I worked in a factory that made raised access flooring tiles to pay the bills. 

    One of the machines for profiling the MDF cores was a complete pain to set up, and would take a long time and destroy many £ worth of MDF in the process. So, to save time and money the factory used to leave the machine on, constantly, only powering it off for maintenance.  So between shifts (it's a 24-hour factory), tea-breaks etc it was left running....

    This machine was a multi-kilowatt 3 phase monster, and it was left constantly on in the name of economics, with not a word being said by the government about it, or anyone else.

    Given that this is one machine in one factory in one city in one county in one country......... I don't worry too much about leaving the 3 watt B&O in standby...

    Talking of B&O, am I alone in seeing the irony in companies boasting of eco-friendly manufacturing techniques in the literature for their latest 103" marvel/monster that has a power consumption somewhere near a kilowatt?  At least ICEpower is eco-friendly Smile

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 03-29-2009 9:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    ok, let's put this simply...

    Does anyone here honestly think we are doing good to our planet?

    Or, are we harming our planet?

    Any simple step towards doing good to our planet is a step in the right direction. Earth hour is a great initiative, and as it catches on it can only be better and better for our planet.

    I, for one, hope it catches on.....

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 03-30-2009 12:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    During Fatuous Hour, we had a dinner party here in Miami for 15 where we popped 14 bottles of various rather fine champagnes.  No candle-light for this motley crew, and the air-conditioner was on blast mode as the outside temperature reached 25ºC = 77ºF.

    I wonder what the "carbon footprint" of our french bubbly-based soirée was? Big Smile

    Before I left our home, I made sure each one of our 21 lamps was on, all dimmers at max.

     

    anthropogenic climate change ;-p

  • 03-30-2009 12:25 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    I'm not sure I get why you are so proud of such wastage.  Unsure

    25degrees is a nice temperature, so you shouldn't have needed the aircon on at all, and 21 lamps on while you weren't at home??? And this is funny???

    Any wastage, whether it be power, food, water, etc. is not a laughing matter.....

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 03-30-2009 12:45 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

     

    jldmelb:
    I'm not sure I get why you are so proud of such wastage.  Unsure

     

     

    This is the part I don't get:

    14 bottles of expensive champagne which underwent riddling (remueur) and other costly, carbon-intensive processes, no-one bats an eyelash.

    21 low-voltage 50-watt halogen lights x 7 hrs  used in total 7.35 kW/hr at a cost of 7¢ kW/hr = 51¢, people get all hot and bothered.

    See why I call it Fatuous Hour? Stick out tongue

     

  • 03-30-2009 1:19 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    I think that deliberately trying to be a knob doesn't do anybody any favours mate.

    What a hero.....

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 03-30-2009 5:47 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Dave, I agree - that's why I suggested that awareness initiatives "risk" encouraging people to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

    So rather than having a global event that draws attention to the problem - again - it would surely be much more productive to raise awareness of consumer actions that can have a real long term impact. As one post here points out, large TVs use more power and they do that all year round, not for one hour. So why don't consumers buy smaller TVs? Because they don't equate large TVs with higher energy usage - or they think their one TV won't make a difference.

    Well, there are thousands of small individual consumber decisions that can make a difference. Maybe the message that needs to get across is that it's not what you do during Earth Hour that matters but what you do for the other 8,759 hours each year.

  • 03-30-2009 6:11 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    jldmelb:

    ok, let's put this simply...

    Does anyone here honestly think we are doing good to our planet?

    Or, are we harming our planet?

    Any simple step towards doing good to our planet is a step in the right direction. Earth hour is a great initiative, and as it catches on it can only be better and better for our planet.

    I, for one, hope it catches on.....

    Well yes, I will agree with that, was just illustrating my frustration at the folly of some of the things done...  how many megawatt/hours have been used by people watching eco-ads on their giant tv's, Rock & Movie stars jetting in in their private 747's, telling us to not to leave the telly on standby for a few hours overnight, and then jetting off again....  am I alone in thinking this is nuts?

    That aforementioned machine used more energy when I went for a tea-break than my entire street does in a day....but the government et al is too busy wittering on about offsetting carbon footprint to ensure energy efficiency in industry.

    My local MP was John Prescott, and how I really appreciated "two jags" telling me to use public transport when I've seen his missus chauffered to the chemists practically opposite their Hull residence in a 4 litre v12 Jaguar.....with the engine left running whilst she was inside, of course.

    Hypocrisy is the thing most guaranteed to cheese me off... Super Angry

     

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 03-30-2009 6:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    To quote Canadian philospher/futurist Marshall McLuhan "There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth.  We are all crew"

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 03-30-2009 7:37 AM In reply to

    • Henri
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 02-15-2009
    • Posts 66
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    jldmelb:
    I think that deliberately trying to be a knob doesn't do anybody any favours mate.

    I think it's more of a counter-reaction to all the übertrendy climate hype. A few years ago I used to do that, too, when eco-activists tried to preach me about the subject - seeing their faces when mentioning 0.4mpg powerboat and that this "GREENHOUSE EFFECT" is actually a great thing because it could extend the boating season was sometimes priceless. I haven't bothered to do that anymore, it's a lot like hearing about a religious person talking about the fear of God and casually asking if choosing an imaginary friend that scares the c**p out of you sounds like a sane person's choice. Carnegie philosophy about not ticking people off works quite a bit better, live and let live.

    As I said, I agree that saving  energy is a great thing, but only because of economic reasons.

  • 03-30-2009 7:53 AM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Earth hour

    Hardwriter:

    Dave, I agree - that's why I suggested that awareness initiatives "risk" encouraging people to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

    So rather than having a global event that draws attention to the problem - again - it would surely be much more productive to raise awareness of consumer actions that can have a real long term impact. As one post here points out, large TVs use more power and they do that all year round, not for one hour. So why don't consumers buy smaller TVs? Because they don't equate large TVs with higher energy usage - or they think their one TV won't make a difference.

    Well, there are thousands of small individual consumber decisions that can make a difference. Maybe the message that needs to get across is that it's not what you do during Earth Hour that matters but what you do for the other 8,759 hours each year.

     

    Excatly. Thank you. The big picture... THE BIG PICTURE.

    This is all very very good to discuss and i'm excited to see all the response, good or bad.

    Calling someone a knob isn't appropriate on this forum, no, but it demostrates at least that you give a stuff, Jonathon. I'll leave it to karma maybe... and hope karma is legit. Smile

     

    This issue might all be a crash course for a while to come (it certainly has been, and is so far), but, like life itself we'll come to a soloution that works - eventually. The more we discuss it and all put in the effort to do simply the best we can with what we have, the better.

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 03-30-2009 12:58 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Hi

    I was thinking of starting a debate about whether the Earth is round, the Moon is made of rock and dust, and whether bears $hit in the woods. Judging by this thread we'd have a very lively debate as to the merits of these very tenuous and yet-to-be-proven theories. 

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 03-30-2009 1:13 PM In reply to

    • Henri
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 02-15-2009
    • Posts 66
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    j0hnbarker:
    Judging by this thread we'd have a very lively debate as to the merits of these very tenuous and yet-to-be-proven theories.

    I'm afraid a thread about any of these scientifically verifiable issues would be short lived. The background of this thread's subject, however, is as debatable as fifth century adminstrative interpretation of christian canon. Equally religious, too, as far as all scientific facts backing up the claims is concerned.

    What isn't real can be very real to some people on a personal level - yet another good reason to avoid debates like this. Smile

  • 03-30-2009 1:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Earth hour

    Henri:

     yet another good reason to avoid debates like this. 

    As you have done up to this point? 

    Anyway, don't bears really prefer to use latrines?

    Must dash as I'm going to sail my merry way off the edge of the Earth, just to thumb my nose in protest at the body of evidence that suggests I cannot do so...

    See you on the other side. Adieu.

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 03-30-2009 1:32 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-27-2007
    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
    • Founder

    Re: Earth hour

    On a positive note, can I ask what long term action folk have taken to help the situation? Lets start with -

    What car are you now driving (engine size etc.)? If nothing else we can preserve what's left of the earth's fossil fuels!

    We can use a 5 Door Ford Fiesta ECOnetic as a benchmark

    1.6-litre TDCi Duratorq diesel with diesel particulate filter
     
    CO2: 98 g/km
    Annual vehicle excise duty: £0
    Fuel efficiency (combined cycle): 76.3 mpg

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 03-30-2009 1:56 PM In reply to

    • Henri
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 02-15-2009
    • Posts 66
    • Gold Member

    Re: Earth hour

    j0hnbarker:
    As you have done up to this point?

    I've always had a secret masochistic fantasy about what it feels like to be the voice of reason in the middle of inquisition. This is just about as close I can get to experience it first-hand. Big Smile

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