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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 02-14-2009 1:29 PM by koning. 82 replies.
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  • 02-12-2009 7:43 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    That's why I have decided a number of years ago that price will not be the main differentior for every product I buy (exept food). Cloathing, music, AV stuff, portables, photography. It's a rat race without end. And I won't be part of it.

    Look at what's happening to Sony! They lose money with almost every product they sell... Just to keep up with their compeditors.  It's a spiral going downwards... and very difficult to get out of...

    Additional problem is that shareholders want to see an extremely fast return of investment. 

    So.. reality check... it's going to be a bumpy ride the comming years. The strongest will NOT survive... Those with the ability to adapt will survive... (don't you just love Darwin...)

    The race for quality has no finish line- so technically, it's more like a death march.

  • 02-12-2009 7:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    The shame of pioneer closing was that they had 2 factories in the ukwhich will close

    the lcd models  were also made in spain i had a look at the back of one of the sets

    also in one of the av cinema magazines leowe are opening six of thier own stores some of them in trendy parts of london

    there factories  seem to be flat out although expensive not as much as beovisions

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 7:46 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Too bad about Pioneer, wonderful plasma screens. I have one, and would strongly recommend that anyone wanting the best in flatscreen technology should run out and buy them now at firesale prices. There won't be a screen that even compares in image quality for several years, due to the downturn in the economy. OLED in comparable screen sizes is seven years away according to analysts.

    LCD sucks eggs in comparison to Pioneer's plasma screens - just the fact that you have almost full image quality at acute angles to the screen puts LCd performance to shame. The market has spoken - not enough people wanted the best, guess it's the way things are going!

  • 02-12-2009 8:35 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    It's not that I'm asking for Beo to price their TV sets to similar prices as Samsung, but at a pricepoint that would make more sense, regarding the whole package, design, technology and their pedigree.

     

    Having something at 6 or 7 times the price of the competition is something I just can't come around. If the Beolab 5's was priced in a similar fashion, they should cost 80.000 euros /pair. Now at 18.000 euros they are incredible value for money. I'm even prepared to stretch so far as to say they just might be the best value in their price range!

     

    Since Beo's audio segment is priced rather conservatively compared to the TV's, I'm getting even more confused why this should be this way? Beo's television prices skyrocketed at the introduction of the flatscreens.

    And now, yes, I know someone will bring up the 32" RF DVD Avant. However something like that was unheard of back then. The design-statement that it was! And the tube was excellent. Similar machine from Sony, but without DVD, the design, Dolby digital etc, was priced pretty close to half of what Beo asked. The top-model CRT's was pretty expensive, whatever the manufacturer. 

    This balance I would like to see coming back.

    And just as a remark to the second hand market, I can't exactly call Beo to be fetching great SH prices lately, atleast not the high-end. BV5 original price in Finland about 16.000 euros it rose to 20,000euros at the end of it's life, now 4.000 recently serviced.... I would be devastated if I had bought a BV5 3-5 years ago, and lost over 12.000 euro on it... 

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 8:55 AM In reply to

    • saf
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 458
    • Founder

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    bayerische:
    I would be devastated if I had bought a BV5 3-5 years ago, and lost over 12.000 euro on it... 

    Well, it must be a paper loss: you only lose if you sell, right? Wink

  • 02-12-2009 9:28 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    saf:

    bayerische:
    I would be devastated if I had bought a BV5 3-5 years ago, and lost over 12.000 euro on it... 

    Well, it must be a paper loss: you only lose if you sell, right? Wink

    Yepp, but people want to upgrade I guess.... No HD available back then. And surely, no one believes that the current "HD" is the last HD. Otherwise sales will halt.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 9:52 AM In reply to

    • saf
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 458
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    bayerische:
    And surely, no one believes that the current "HD" is the last HD. Otherwise sales will halt.

    Indeed, and they will, naturally, never believe ... but how good is that 5 years 'later' your good old BV5 still handles your DVD collection rather respectably (of course, in a link room with an extra DVD player) + N.MUSIC and all the other sources etc. available? Big Smile 

  • 02-12-2009 9:53 AM In reply to

    • Greg
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • London, UK
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    soundproof:

    Too bad about Pioneer, wonderful plasma screens. I have one, and would strongly recommend that anyone wanting the best in flatscreen technology should run out and buy them now at firesale prices. There won't be a screen that even compares in image quality for several years, due to the downturn in the economy. OLED in comparable screen sizes is seven years away according to analysts.

    LCD sucks eggs in comparison to Pioneer's plasma screens - just the fact that you have almost full image quality at acute angles to the screen puts LCd performance to shame. The market has spoken - not enough people wanted the best, guess it's the way things are going!

     

    Couldn't agree more. Something I find interesting is the discussion on this subject in the mainstream centres on how overpriced Pioneer's TVs supposedly are. When I bought my Pioneer 428XD, it was after initially looking at B&O which was going to be four times as expensive! So the Pioneer seemed a genuine bargain, especially as in performance terms it was (and is) at least the equal of the B&O sets.

    That having been said, if I had limitless money, I would still have chosen the B&O because the fit and finish (and materials) of the Pioneer - while better than the mass market rivals - is not up to B&O quality or appearance. 

    Nevertheless, the 8G and 9G Pioneer plasmas are truly exceptional and I'm certainly happy with it for the time being. I just hope B&O are still in the TV business when I come to replace it!

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 10:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    saf:

    bayerische:
    And surely, no one believes that the current "HD" is the last HD. Otherwise sales will halt.

    Indeed, and they will, naturally, never believe ... but how good is that 5 years 'later' your good old BV5 still handles your DVD collection rather respectably (of course, in a link room with an extra DVD player) + N.MUSIC and all the other sources etc. available? Big Smile 

    Oh yeah, I agree with you the BV5 is superb!

    I'm actually looking for one.

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 12:26 PM In reply to

    • Clakke
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-01-2009
    • Sweden
    • Posts 108
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    bayerische:

    Razlaw:

    Of course the BV4 has no tuner. I doubt very much that anybody buys the BV4 for use with one speaker. More likely it will be used in a surround sound setup. The Pioneer's tuner, if I am correct, does not do surround sound. This would necessitate the purchase of a receiver/amp which if quality brands are purchased could easily cost much more than the BS3.  Looking at LCDs the BV7 is $9450      

    Bang & Olufsen Aluminum 40" BeoVision 7 LCD Flat Panel Television - 1818870

    One can also spend $3999 on a 40 inch Sony

    Sony 40" BRAVIA Black LCD Flat Panel HDTV - KLV40ZX1M

    Thus the B and O price is less than 2 1/2 times the Sony.

    A BV4 50 inch and a BS3 would total around $15,000. Using a factor of 6 would result in a total of $2500, a factor of 8 results in $1875.

    I have yet to see a 50 inch plasma with a 7.1 surround processor of any decent quality that can be purchased for that amount.

    Firstly, and no disrespect, but there are other currencies  and pricing out here than what you have in America. 15.000 USD has no valid point over here. The BV4 with the BS3 is priced at about 16.000 euros over here. If that is not over priced then I don't know what is. It's hardly a "design classic" either. An aluminum frame.

    The Sony you took as an example, is 9.9mm thick, that's 2/5 of an inch. They are going to be charging extra for that.

    About the surround... If you already have an existing setup of Beolab's get a pre  amp. I'm sure NAD or the likes makes just as good of a  surround sound processor to that of the Beo built-in. Surely, at this point you bring in the cheap remote, and the "one remote only religion". Yes I love that philosophy too, but I'm not spending 10.000 euro extra getting that "one remote". And it looks like every day we are getting more and more files for the BEO5, so soon we can control all our beo and non beo with the Beo5.

    Hi

    Just want to complete bayerische words about this  "one remote only religion". I have seen this argument come up now and then. I think that is not valid. If you only have one manufacturer of your AV equipment, you nearly always have this one remote solution. This is definitely nothing unique for B&O. If you have several brands at home, there are today very good multi remotes, like the Philips Prestigo. Maybe this "one remote only religion" was valid once upon a time. Certainly not today.

    B R

    Clakke

     

  • 02-12-2009 12:41 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Clakke,

    Question remains how many people stick with 1 brand for everthing!

    My neighbor has a different remote for the TV, Dreambox, Amp and DVD.... If I look at my friends systems, 2 remotes is the minimum.. TV, music and SetTopBox. And most of them simply cannot configure a Pronto or Harmony. So... multiples remote

    Karel.

    The race for quality has no finish line- so technically, it's more like a death march.

  • 02-12-2009 12:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    I am afraid I am clearly in a minority - I would not consider anything but a B&O TV. I know they have limitations, I know they are expensive, but having lived with a Panasonic TV after I was burgled for a year made me realise that the B&O sets offer everything I need in a well made reliable package that integrates with the rest of my home entertainment system. I wouldn't have an LCD set as I don't like the picture but will be getting a plasma - and I don't really care about HD - certainly 'full HD' would seem to me to be a cynical marketing ploy and designed to encourage a constant spate of upgrading. Still not seen a set that deals with broadcast media that betters my LX6000. That allied to my aging eyes means I can probably save some money and get a BV5!! Laughing

  • 02-12-2009 12:59 PM In reply to

    • Clakke
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-01-2009
    • Sweden
    • Posts 108
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Karel Uyttendaele:

    Clakke,

    Question remains how many people stick with 1 brand for everthing!

    My neighbor has a different remote for the TV, Dreambox, Amp and DVD.... If I look at my friends systems, 2 remotes is the minimum.. TV, music and SetTopBox. And most of them simply cannot configure a Pronto or Harmony. So... multiples remote

    Karel.

    Hi Karel

    I do not think either that many people have just one brand.

    As I wrote in my introduction post here:

    http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/t/24071.aspx

    I describe there that it is actually easier for most people to use Philips Prestigo than Beo 4. This is including myself. It is actually very simple to use. So far I have not even looked in the manual.

    The Pronto on the other hand seems to be a remote for "remote nerds"Smile. I have not felt the need of such a powerful one at least.

    Do not forget that B&O also needs two remotes, one Beo 4 (or Prestigo) and one iPod touch to see what you play. Wink

    B R

    Clakke

     

  • 02-12-2009 1:47 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Nr. Durham, NE England.
    • Posts 9,588
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Peter :

    I am afraid I am clearly in a minority - I would not consider anything but a B&O TV. I know they have limitations, I know they are expensive, but having lived with a Panasonic TV after I was burgled for a year made me realise that the B&O sets offer everything I need in a well made reliable package that integrates with the rest of my home entertainment system. I wouldn't have an LCD set as I don't like the picture but will be getting a plasma - and I don't really care about HD - certainly 'full HD' would seem to me to be a cynical marketing ploy and designed to encourage a constant spate of upgrading. Still not seen a set that deals with broadcast media that betters my LX6000. That allied to my aging eyes means I can probably save some money and get a BV5!! Laughing

     

    Would you be happy to pay for a new BV9?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-12-2009 2:07 PM In reply to

    • Craig
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-29-2007
    • Costa Del St Evenage
    • Posts 4,855
    • Founder

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Peter :

    I am afraid I am clearly in a minority - I would not consider anything but a B&O TV. I know they have limitations, I know they are expensive, but having lived with a Panasonic TV after I was burgled for a year made me realise that the B&O sets offer everything I need in a well made reliable package that integrates with the rest of my home entertainment system. I wouldn't have an LCD set as I don't like the picture but will be getting a plasma - and I don't really care about HD - certainly 'full HD' would seem to me to be a cynical marketing ploy and designed to encourage a constant spate of upgrading. Still not seen a set that deals with broadcast media that betters my LX6000. That allied to my aging eyes means I can probably save some money and get a BV5!! Laughing

    Peter, I too must be in that minority then.Laughing Also agree about LCD and HD. CRT is more than OK for me.

     

    CraigSmile

    For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and we learned to listen..

  • 02-12-2009 2:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Puncher:

    Would you be happy to pay for a new BV9?

    I'd pay the same as a friend of mine did for a Mk1 - still a lot but a bargain!

     

  • 02-12-2009 4:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Greg:

    soundproof:

    Too bad about Pioneer, wonderful plasma screens. I have one, and would strongly recommend that anyone wanting the best in flatscreen technology should run out and buy them now at firesale prices. There won't be a screen that even compares in image quality for several years, due to the downturn in the economy. OLED in comparable screen sizes is seven years away according to analysts.

    LCD sucks eggs in comparison to Pioneer's plasma screens - just the fact that you have almost full image quality at acute angles to the screen puts LCd performance to shame. The market has spoken - not enough people wanted the best, guess it's the way things are going!

     

    Couldn't agree more. Something I find interesting is the discussion on this subject in the mainstream centres on how overpriced Pioneer's TVs supposedly are. When I bought my Pioneer 428XD, it was after initially looking at B&O which was going to be four times as expensive! So the Pioneer seemed a genuine bargain, especially as in performance terms it was (and is) at least the equal of the B&O sets.

    That having been said, if I had limitless money, I would still have chosen the B&O because the fit and finish (and materials) of the Pioneer - while better than the mass market rivals - is not up to B&O quality or appearance. 

    Nevertheless, the 8G and 9G Pioneer plasmas are truly exceptional and I'm certainly happy with it for the time being. I just hope B&O are still in the TV business when I come to replace it!

     

    I like your response here Greg and agree with you about the reasons you would buy into B&O. They are the same reasons I love the brand. I know, of course, that for the premium we pay there are better products that could be bought - better in terms of functionality and perhaps useability and maybe even linkability - but, I just can't find any other company out there that seems to push all my buttons in the way that B&O do. I really do adore the design so much so, its a real love affair for me. I love the thought and imagination behind the product. I admire the time it takes of constantly refining their products until they are satisfactory in terms of quality and reliability. I love and hugley respect their attention to detail. I love the build quality. I genuinly believe that I am buying a superior product to rival products. Its quite difficult to pinpoint exactly what it is about a B&O product, and from visiting this forum in the last 2 years or so I now realise how many different reasons there are why people buy into the brand. These are my stated reasons only. I seek perfection (something I know I will never find but nonetheless I enjoy the journey) and I feel, rightly or wrongly, that B&O are on this path and share this desire too. Its being part of that journey that makes it exciting and very unique, as 'most' people out there couldn't care either way! But we are not most people and that intrigues me! Is there anyone else like B&O, really? I know several people would answer yes, and say Apple, but for me I can't compare the two. I admire Apple and like their products but there is a 'magic' missing that I want, and that I find with B&O. I think its the fact that B&O are not mass market. In fact, it must be that, because I know for sure the minute they became like that I would lose interest. This is why I don't understand the many times I read in threads that people want B&O products for less. If they did that, they would lose their credibility and reputation instantly. Are they really overpriced for what they are? I don't think so. If I did, I wouldn't have bought them. Its not about the money. That argument is the same as any other with whatever product or service you talk about in life and the answer is always the same, you buy what you like and what you can afford within your means. Anyway, slightly off topic towards the end but reading posts has sort of put that fresh in my mind.

    Simon.

  • 02-12-2009 6:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    I do not wish to upset anybody now, this is simply my opinion...

    As to this "magic" thing you guys are talking about... I can't understand it. 

    "Magic", and "religion" is for me very close to each other. And not be able to pinpoint what is so great with a product, other than putting the "greatness" of the product in the "magic box"...

    I don't feel any magic in any product. 

    I think Magic in Beo terms that it makes us feel special, I have something the neighbor don't have. 

    "Magic" in Bang & Olufsen is in my book directly comparable to "Voodoo" in high-end audio.

    Big Smile 

     

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 6:25 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    • South West, UK
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    bayerische:

    I do not wish to upset anybody now..

    Just out of interest, are you going for the 'number of replies from one person in one thread' record? :)

    I understand what Simon is saying about the 'magic', but there are also too many frustrations about owning recent B&O kit, particularly based around sw issues. Worse, dealers should be empowered to fix these and claim back the costs from B&O, under warranty.

  • 02-12-2009 6:26 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Peter :

    Puncher:

    Would you be happy to pay for a new BV9?

    I'd pay the same as a friend of mine did for a Mk1 - still a lot but a bargain!

     

     

    Would you be happy to pay for a new BV9?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 02-12-2009 6:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    moxxey:

     

    Just out of interest, are you going for the 'number of replies from one person in one thread' record? :)

     

    Only if I get a medal. Big Smile

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 02-12-2009 7:03 PM In reply to

    • Pushkin
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    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    I understand the concept of 'magic' and the fact that B&O products have, for me, gone well beyond a piece of functional kit to something that gives real and sustained enjoyment - and I am willing to pay for the magic.  I have two concerns 

    - firstly the TV range's magic to price range ratio is out of step with the rest of the range, particularly the beolabs which I think are good value for money

     - secondly imho the magic of the older products exceeds the newer ones eg I think an technically up to date BV5 would be an absolute winner 

  • 02-13-2009 4:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Pushkin:

    I understand the concept of 'magic' and the fact that B&O products have, for me, gone well beyond a piece of functional kit to something that gives real and sustained enjoyment - and I am willing to pay for the magic.  I have two concerns 

    - firstly the TV range's magic to price range ratio is out of step with the rest of the range, particularly the beolabs which I think are good value for money

     - secondly imho the magic of the older products exceeds the newer ones eg I think an technically up to date BV5 would be an absolute winner 

    You have taken the words completely out of my mouth! I agree with you on all counts, especially about older products having lots more (in my opinion) magic and especially the BV5. I must say however that I really do like the Beo 5 remote a lot. Its growing on me daily. Its a terrific piece of kit and when programmed properly is a joy to use. I guess if its not programmed well, then equally it could be clumsy. I should have put that on my list of top3 products in my other thread, I forgot! By the way, quite like it in gold but not sure about any other products in gold. An interesting colour though and my gut feeling tells me this might work quite well for B&O.

    Simon.

  • 02-13-2009 8:17 AM In reply to

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Hardwriter:

    ...

    Loewe and B&O both follow the approach that by providing something different they can sustain a price premium. I am sure they are both very aware that only a certain number of consumers will be willing to pay the premium. So they have to decide on the really difficult balance of price and desirability.

    I'm sure B&O could make cheaper TVs, and they may decide to do that. But making a cheaper TV is not neccessarily going to make it a more profitable company.

    Interestingly Loewe is running a quite profitable business (http://www.eetimes.eu/production/212902756 - The company's operating profit soared 35 percent to €28.5 million (about $37.6 million) on sales of €374 million.)  compared to B&O. I agree that the finishing of B&O is better, but from a technology point of view, Loewe is more up-to-date and is offering a good consumer experience. For example the myriad of colors you can choose from for inlays, integrated (partly Bose based) audio, video, streaming, HD recording, etc.

    The mass market approach (of Philips, Sony, Pana, ...) does not work out well, high pricing like Pioneer does not work out either (Pioneer is making a loss on TV's for more than 5 years already). B&O with a design driven attitude and last year technology has an issue as well. So it seems that Loewe has hit the right niche for the moment with relative up to date TV's, simplicity/integration, good design and a premium which seems to bealigned with customers expectations. 

    I agree with most people here, that by redesigning their product line, offering up-to-date technology and reduced pricing (although still at the top level) could bring a lot.

  • 02-13-2009 10:24 AM In reply to

    • Greg
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • London, UK
    • Posts 109
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Price drop for Bang&Olufsen BeoVisions

    Harry2008:
    So it seems that Loewe has hit the right niche for the moment with relative up to date TV's, simplicity/integration, good design and a premium which seems to bealigned with customers expectations.

    I really don't get the Loewe thing. To me, Loewe design or product quality is not exceptional - certainly nowhere near B&O. It looks more like the occasional "lifestyle" or "luxury" products from Sony. It's like a mass market product but with a price tag that's well on the way to B&O. I'd rather pay a little more and get the B&O, or pay a little less and get something that's basic in design but great in performance (like the Pioneers).

    B&O sets are not usually at the cutting edge, but neither are they about sticking on some bits of aluminium and wood veneer and thinking that constitutes great design or quality. I have always loved the B&O approach of taking a while for the technology to settle, then implementing it in a well thought-through design realised in high quality materials throughout and that will look beautiful and perform well for many years. 

    I hope these core values, this thoroughness of design, continues at B&O and they are not tempted to chase volumes with mass produced product. B&O's past attempts at 're-badging' other manufacturers products (from Philips cell phones in the 90s to the Samsung MP3 player) have always made me cringe. Conversely, I've no problem with certain things, like Serene, where the internals are made by a specialist but the design is thorough B&O and the quality is decent. But, I guess B&O's decision to drop these projects, and narrow the focus to core products is the right direction.

    Uniqueness of design approach and realisation will enable B&O to compete on value even at very high prices. Attempting to compete on price would be a huge mistake.

    True, I bought the cheaper Pioneer in the end but if I had a little more money it would have been the B&O and it will be next time. And there are plenty of people out there with a little more money than me, happy to pay for the right product.

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