moxxey:

bayerische:

Well those kinds of prices are not possible in Europe. In Finland the BV4 is 8.750 euro, or 11.300 USD. Pioneer is a far better and newer screen. Who wants a cheap tuner with the BV4? You need the Beosystem 3 with the BV4, adding another 7.056 euros or 9.130 USD. Total: over 20.000 dollars! So my estimate of 6-8 times is fairly accurate... Or?

Absolutely correct. Who made the point that the basic BV4-50 is 'affordable'? In the UK, you need to factor in the BV4-50 and BS3 and this is around £11000. The same Kuro 50" mentioned above can be bought for around £2000. Certainly not 1.5x more expensive.

Unbelievable. I am feeling rather pleased that I do not need a 50" B&O TV, right now. I think I can resist this offer.

B R

Clakke

Clakke:

moxxey:

bayerische:

Well those kinds of prices are not possible in Europe. In Finland the BV4 is 8.750 euro, or 11.300 USD. Pioneer is a far better and newer screen. Who wants a cheap tuner with the BV4? You need the Beosystem 3 with the BV4, adding another 7.056 euros or 9.130 USD. Total: over 20.000 dollars! So my estimate of 6-8 times is fairly accurate... Or?

Absolutely correct. Who made the point that the basic BV4-50 is 'affordable'? In the UK, you need to factor in the BV4-50 and BS3 and this is around £11000. The same Kuro 50" mentioned above can be bought for around £2000. Certainly not 1.5x more expensive.

Unbelievable. I am feeling rather pleased that I do not need a 50" B&O TV, right now. I think I can resist this offer.

B R

Clakke

Let's "un-quote" Steve Jobs on this one.... "This is NOT insanely great!" Period. Beo has overpriced TV's. There's no fighting it.

I still have to question the "B&O has over-priced its TVs" statement. If their input costs were far below their selling price, they would be making a lot of profit - but we all know they are making a loss. So it is not a case of "over-pricing" but one of the entire development, manufacturing and sales costs being too high. That is not a good position to be in but there is no reason to believe that cutting the price of each product will see sales volumes grow to the levels needed to cover the margin loss.

I repeat the comment I made earlier that B&O is facing a very challenging time - the TV market is changing rapidly, the home audio market has all but disappeared and most consumers today do not buy AV equipment with the expectation of long lifetimes (that may change in a post recession environment).

As a company it needs to find its place in this new environment. That place may be to target design conscious consumers with deep pockets - it may not. However, B&O cannot both provide the type of products it produces today at the price of a Loewe or a Panasonic. Nobody can and to keep on about "over-pricing" simply ignores reality.

Previous commments regarding the BV4 do make a good point, tough, in that B&O will find it hard to charge the premium it does for what is effectively a flat panel with a standalone tuner. But the BV7 is a quite different case. Whatever you think of it from a technical perspective, put it on a stand with any of the speaker options and you have something that stands out from its competitors - and that means it is possible to charge a price premium.

Of course the BV4 has no tuner. I doubt very much that anybody buys the BV4 for use with one speaker. More likely it will be used in a surround sound setup. The Pioneer's tuner, if I am correct, does not do surround sound. This would necessitate the purchase of a receiver/amp which if quality brands are purchased could easily cost much more than the BS3.  Looking at LCDs the BV7 is $9450      

Bang & Olufsen Aluminum 40" BeoVision 7 LCD Flat Panel Television - 1818870

One can also spend $3999 on a 40 inch Sony

Sony 40" BRAVIA Black LCD Flat Panel HDTV - KLV40ZX1M

Thus the B and O price is less than 2 1/2 times the Sony.

A BV4 50 inch and a BS3 would total around $15,000. Using a factor of 6 would result in a total of $2500, a factor of 8 results in $1875.

I have yet to see a 50 inch plasma with a 7.1 surround processor of any decent quality that can be purchased for that amount.

We've been here before, several times - it is a fruitless argument. Many think the TV's are overpriced, you do not.

The Sony TV you mention is packed full of features that the BV7 doesn't have - the sony is plastic with stickers on the screen etc. etc and so the argument goes on.

The Panasonic TH50PZ85U 50" plasma and the SABX500 7.1 receiver (with TrueHD and DTS-MA) can be had for $1600.

I think we should all agree to disagree.

Razlaw:

I have yet to see a 50 inch plasma with a 7.1 surround processor of any decent quality that can be purchased for that amount.

As I've said before though, that's only a valid argument if you *need* those additional features. I don't need 7.1. Most don't.

Let's start a poll.

I think that they are overpriced no doubt about that.

Hardwriter:

I still have to question the "B&O has over-priced its TVs" statement. If their input costs were far below their selling price, they would be making a lot of profit - but we all know they are making a loss. 

Yes, but how many do they actually sell? If they sell 5 BV9 a year in Finland, and X for the whole world, where X is not enough to cover the expense of making the TV... The TV could be priced at 100.000 euros, and if they was to sell only 1 a year, they would make a gigantic loss.  I believe that's the problem. I can't imagine Beo's solution would be to increase prices. History has showed that's often the last thing a company should do. Apple did it in the beginning of the nineties, and they got an even weaker market position as a result. Apples new strategy is not to make stuff more expensive, but more affordable, and better technology. Bringing the company forward. I'm not sure were Beo's going, but it's not forward. Take the new unibody Macbook pro 17" portable as an example, it comes out in a few weeks, it will be again the best 17" laptop out there. It's more expensive than the competition, but rightly so! Where Acer uses plastics and old battery technology, Apple uses aircraft grade aluminum and a new battery standard with up to 8 hours use!

Now if this same computer was badged Beo, and it has atleast the engineering and design quality Beo has, it would most likely be priced at 6.000 euro or more.

If pricing is not wrong, and Beos products are the best, then what is wrong?

Hardwriter:

As a company it needs to find its place in this new environment. That place may be to target design conscious consumers with deep pockets - it may not. 

I think history has now showed us, there's not enough of us.

Are they the best??

Razlaw:

Of course the BV4 has no tuner. I doubt very much that anybody buys the BV4 for use with one speaker. More likely it will be used in a surround sound setup. The Pioneer's tuner, if I am correct, does not do surround sound. This would necessitate the purchase of a receiver/amp which if quality brands are purchased could easily cost much more than the BS3.  Looking at LCDs the BV7 is $9450      

Bang & Olufsen Aluminum 40" BeoVision 7 LCD Flat Panel Television - 1818870

One can also spend $3999 on a 40 inch Sony

Sony 40" BRAVIA Black LCD Flat Panel HDTV - KLV40ZX1M

Thus the B and O price is less than 2 1/2 times the Sony.

A BV4 50 inch and a BS3 would total around $15,000. Using a factor of 6 would result in a total of $2500, a factor of 8 results in $1875.

I have yet to see a 50 inch plasma with a 7.1 surround processor of any decent quality that can be purchased for that amount.

Firstly, and no disrespect, but there are other currencies  and pricing out here than what you have in America. 15.000 USD has no valid point over here. The BV4 with the BS3 is priced at about 16.000 euros over here. If that is not over priced then I don't know what is. It's hardly a "design classic" either. An aluminum frame.

The Sony you took as an example, is 9.9mm thick, that's 2/5 of an inch. They are going to be charging extra for that.

About the surround... If you already have an existing setup of Beolab's get a pre  amp. I'm sure NAD or the likes makes just as good of a  surround sound processor to that of the Beo built-in. Surely, at this point you bring in the cheap remote, and the "one remote only religion". Yes I love that philosophy too, but I'm not spending 10.000 euro extra getting that "one remote". And it looks like every day we are getting more and more files for the BEO5, so soon we can control all our beo and non beo with the Beo5.

Cutting prices I'm not meaning they should necessarily cut the current range, come out with new ranges. If the current TV's are not selling, then dump them.

I would love to see statistics over "what sells at Bang&Olufsen".

absolute!

you read my mind.

the bv4 has glass front screen and aluminium surround also the spec for pioneer tuner is probably lower than bs3

also ive just seen on web pioneer are stoping production of kuro plasma due to cost to high

panasonic and lg are to competitive

Stopping production??

I don't think so!

The pioneer also has a glass front.

MGBGTV8:

also ive just seen on web pioneer are stoping production of kuro plasma due to cost to high

panasonic and lg are to competitive

I googled that, and the only "fact" I found was from articles dating back a year from March 2008...

MGBGTV8:

the bv4 has glass front screen and aluminium surround also the spec for pioneer tuner is probably lower than bs3

Probably? In what way? 

the news article is on www.homecinemachoice.com under news

the situation has been brewing for quite some time firstly pioneer were moving to panasonic panels  then rumour of stopping, and now it seems more probable that there are closing down

its a big problemb in the industry people dont want to pay even 2500 uk pounds for plasma screens in uk

most of our wealthy clients buy cheap plasma panels and house them in timber cabinets its becoming a bit of a trend

also i agree the bv7 looks such a great package and  far nicer than similar rivals, but its still lcd which iam not so sure of for films and football

MGBGTV8:

the news article is on www.homecinemachoice.com under news

the situation has been brewing for quite some time firstly pioneer were moving to panasonic panels  then rumour of stopping, and now it seems more probable that there are closing down

its a big problemb in the industry people dont want to pay even 2500 uk pounds for plasma screens in uk

most of our wealthy clients buy cheap plasma panels and house them in timber cabinets its becoming a bit of a trend

Whow! Didn't see that coming... If no-one wants to buy a Kuro priced at 3.000 euro, then who is going to buy the Beo 50" for 20.000 euro?

A little OT, but relates to the issue handled in this topic

Pioneer press release (dated today):

http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2009/pdf/release_3q09e_02.pdf

"Pioneer will terminate any further in-house display product development after its
products currently available on the market, and withdraw from the display business
by March 2010. Recent market conditions have changed far more than initially
anticipated, and Pioneer has decided to withdraw from the display business after
concluding that there are no prospects for improving profitability under current
conditions. However, the Company will continue to provide after-sales services even
after the withdrawal."

After the Pioneer panels run out from the stock B&O might be again the best commercially availalable tv? Currently it is not.  Sorry about my sarcastic comment.

MGBGTV8:

the news article is on www.homecinemachoice.com under news

the situation has been brewing for quite some time firstly pioneer were moving to panasonic panels  then rumour of stopping, and now it seems more probable that there are closing down

its a big problemb in the industry people dont want to pay even 2500 uk pounds for plasma screens in uk

most of our wealthy clients buy cheap plasma panels and house them in timber cabinets its becoming a bit of a trend

also i agree the bv7 looks such a great package and  far nicer than similar rivals, but its still lcd which iam not so sure of for films and football

 

You're right MGBGTV8,

Pioneer is stopping making plasma's and LCD televisions.

I would like to know the statistics for what sells well and what doesnt

my dealer has offered me a bv7 32 non dvd with bl4 and bracketts plus wall bracket with free blu ray for quite a good deal

this must be a way of getting people back as he said 6700 uk pounds is a lot for a telly

I'm sure a lot of you won't agree with this, and I'mnot saying B&O TVs are good value as they are not and should be cheaper.

Having said that, look at the recent announcement from Pioneer, lookhow much Panasonic, Samsung etc actually made on screen sales last year, then look at the profits for Dixons, Currys and the shops trying to sell them.  It's not that these things aren't shifting in volume, just that to my mind they are developing more quickly, and at a lower price point than the market can sustain.

The general public expect new innovations to be researched and developed at all times with new sets arriving almost weekly, and also expect to be able to buy a 40" all singing all dancing TV for under £1000.  Until now the manufacturers and suppliers have responded to customer demands with new models and reduced prices, but at what cost.  If the manufacturer and retailer aren't making any money where does that leave everyone?  Will Pioneer be able to support the sets they have sold 5 years from now?

And I haven't even started on the wages for the workers that actually build these things in China or wherever the manufacturer can get the cheapest labour rate.

Maybe B&O aren't as stupidly expensive as people think, and are as mentioned above just priced at a point that makes business sense.  It appears a few other companies could do with reviewing their own pricing.  What good is millions of units sold if it costs you money?

Rednik... you can read my mind :-) Almost made the same comment on the Dutch forum...

Rednik and Karel see the point. Mass market TV are priced so low because the manufacturers have followed the old - and often deluded - mantra that "if we get enough volume we'll start making a profit". Now they operate in a market where price is the only differentiator.

Loewe and B&O both follow the approach that by providing something different they can sustain a price premium. I am sure they are both very aware that only a certain number of consumers will be willing to pay the premium. So they have to decide on the really difficult balance of price and desirability.

I'm sure B&O could make cheaper TVs, and they may decide to do that. But making a cheaper TV is not neccessarily going to make it a more profitable company.

Pioneer quits TV market and cuts 10,000 jobs

Electronics company heads for $1.4bn loss ...

rednik:

And I haven't even started on the wages for the workers that actually build these things in China or wherever the manufacturer can get the cheapest labour rate.