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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-20-2010 8:55 AM by Flappo The Grate. 181 replies.
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  • 01-15-2010 10:46 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Oki, let's talk for fun...

     

    dilznik:

    1&2: this is "fake" product , althought price is cheaper. Evenmore, the quality is standard, but customer will think in his mind that "quality is  more and more reduced"

    - Yes, because building it in Czech Republic is just like building it in Denmark whereas building it in China is not.  They could build it in Vietnam and not only make a great product cheaply, but it would save on shipping costs to you.

    B&O product is not like Garment/Shoes products, when all material shipped to China, Asia,....and only for labor. Now ProAC, Dyn Audio, B&W already has their speaker produced in China, and now most of speaker named ProAC, Dyn Audio, B&W... with sounds like "fake" product (quality controled again in mother country) and some really is  fake product, made by Chinese. I had come to Guangzhou/Shanghai some times, and see a lot of speaker name B&W lied outside in the street, everywhere. Sonus Faber has cooperate with a Taiwan firm, and now lots of Usher product look like Sonus faber.

    If it is cheap, it is not B&O. B&O tends to be the No.1 in quality, in design, in trend, in technology, but not cheap No.1.

     

     

     

  • 01-15-2010 10:52 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hihi, and I say the last.

    This topic is useless for B&O...

     

  • 01-16-2010 1:05 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Giang Nguyen:

    Oki, let's talk for fun...

    If it is cheap, it is not B&O. B&O tends to be the No.1 in quality, in design, in trend, in technology, but not cheap No.1.

     

    This is... um... this is just crazy.  So you're saying B&O *needs* to be expensive?  They shouldn't worry about increasing consumer base and profit margins?  They should just, you know, be expensive?  Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.

    So do you think everything is just fine, all their products are fine, the price/quality ratio is fine, the company is on the right track, that sort of thing?

  • 01-16-2010 5:58 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hardwriter:

    Bayerische, you say:

    "Well if Apple was 5-10 times the cost of a PC, as Beovisions are to their competition, I wouldn't buy Macs. They're good, but not that good. Nothing is worth 5-10 times the competition. Apple is about 1,5 to 2 times more expensive than the PC equivalent. If Beovisions where the same, or even 3 times more expensive I wouldn't hesitate.

    But you use a Rolex avatar. Is that the exception that proves the rule?

    B&O pricing is high but not too high for the market it aims as long as it gets the product desirability right.

    Please elaborate on your Rolex theory...? I'm interested to see where it goes...

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 6:17 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    dilznik:

    cooldude:

    Even you will have to admit that the Beo5 is an utter disaster and needs continuous channel programming ? Ridiculous if you buy an 800$ remote that needs 200$ of programming every 6 months to bring it up to date ....

     

    If Beo5 could control everything in your rack whether it was a B&O product or not, and people could program it at home without hackware off the interwebz that cost money, and if it was $200, they'd sell a million of them.  Or at least a few hundred thousand.

    No need to dump the prices there. The better programmable remotes that are around aren't that cheap after all, and people still buy them. There's a huge demand for those, as for example the useless audio on most current (non-B&O) TVs forces people to have a home theatre system as well. Nobody really wants to have an array of remotes on the sofa table.

    This could be a great entry product for B&O, if you could actually use it without any other B&O equipment, and it was genuinely user programmable along the lines that Logitech has. Anybody who handles a B&O remote would understand and appreciate how it will cost more than a plastic Pronto or Logitech.

    But I guess the programmability issue will never be solved in a manner that non-nerds could do it for themselves... the Beo5 seems another victim demonstrating how the software department of B&O is either badly managed, badly underpowered, or most probably both.

    -mika

  • 01-16-2010 9:14 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    B&O target customers are affluent perhaps the top 5% of consumers that can easily afford bno and are are not usually that technically minded or enthusiasts all most customers want is quality style and image.

    With a growing wealthy class worldwide things still look quite good for a company that uses a large franchise dealer network .

    They also have a very loyal home market in denmark and scandinavia.

    There is very little chance they will integrate there products with other manufacturers unless forced to do so like blueray,a bno universal remote would be superb, there is a great market for such a product but i doubt it will happen.

    also a lot of products are now way past there sell by date and will needed to be deleted bl6000,bl4,bs3,hdr2,bs1 and replaced lets hope in the near future more new products arrive.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 10:08 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    dilznik:

    cooldude:

    If B&O made an Iphone they would not want to sell 50 billion of them either and certainly not market them at a 299$ consumer price either.
    So if B&O would market it's own customized iphone at $2000 you still would pay that price for a product that comes of the same chinese assembly line ? wow

    I have no problem with apple products and I am a mac user myself. 

    I, personally, think they should.  They should design good quality, good looking products at a low price point with large profit margins and sell them in every store with an electronics section.  They should build something they can sell for twice what it cost to make that everyone wants and can buy.  If they do this then they will make money and we won't have to worry about them going under.  Consumers will buy the product, figure out how good it is, and maybe check the next level of product, which could be a nice looking, nice sounding, nicely designed bookshelf system for $1500 or whatever's reasonable.  Maybe then that person thinks "wow, this is great" and moves up.  That's how they got me.  First, A8 headphones, then a Century, then upwards from there.  You hook a 20 year old college student with a $600 computer speaker system that smokes anything else at that price point (the Bose Companion 5, for example... surely they can make something better than that for the same price) and then maybe in a few years when that guy has a job he'll get a BS4 or something.

    Profit margins and repeat customers keep companies in business.  If they're in business they'll keep making the stuff we like.  If they're not, they won't.

    Somehow I think serenata when I read this ........  rebadging stuff is something they tried and failed miserably.

     

  • 01-16-2010 10:09 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    dilznik:

    cooldude:

    If B&O made an Iphone they would not want to sell 50 billion of them either and certainly not market them at a 299$ consumer price either.
    So if B&O would market it's own customized iphone at $2000 you still would pay that price for a product that comes of the same chinese assembly line ? wow

    I have no problem with apple products and I am a mac user myself. 

    I, personally, think they should.  They should design good quality, good looking products at a low price point with large profit margins and sell them in every store with an electronics section.  They should build something they can sell for twice what it cost to make that everyone wants and can buy.  If they do this then they will make money and we won't have to worry about them going under.  Consumers will buy the product, figure out how good it is, and maybe check the next level of product, which could be a nice looking, nice sounding, nicely designed bookshelf system for $1500 or whatever's reasonable.  Maybe then that person thinks "wow, this is great" and moves up.  That's how they got me.  First, A8 headphones, then a Century, then upwards from there.  You hook a 20 year old college student with a $600 computer speaker system that smokes anything else at that price point (the Bose Companion 5, for example... surely they can make something better than that for the same price) and then maybe in a few years when that guy has a job he'll get a BS4 or something.

    Profit margins and repeat customers keep companies in business.  If they're in business they'll keep making the stuff we like.  If they're not, they won't.

    Somehow I think serenata when I read this ........  rebadging stuff is something they tried and failed miserably.

     

  • 01-16-2010 2:14 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I haven't read the whole thread in detail - so apologies if any these points have been made elsewhere.

    Assuming B&O needs saving, I would advocate the following

    1. Immediately fire anyone connected with business who uses the words or phrases like Lifestyle, Aspirational or Ownership Experience.  (sorry Lee!)

    2. Understand and decide who your customers are - and understand their needs.  

    3. Fire anyone who answers 'Footballers', 'Film Stars' or 'Lottery Winners' to the point above.

    4. The answer to 2 should be 'Anyone who  appreciates outstanding quality in functionality and form... which will last for years and represent excellent value for money'

    5. The answer to 2 will not be 'Anyone who wants the latest gadget, fad, craze or wants to keep up with Joneses'//

    6. To achieve the above  B&O must concentrate on areas of genuine excellence - user interface, build quality and seamless integration - and above all Value for Money.

    7. The basic system should last for years - technologies likely to change should be modular, be replacable/updatable, be hidden and out sourced.

    8. Anything visible should be B&O branded.

    9. Did I mention firing anyone uttering 'Lifestyle'?

    ...

    In terms of specifics now, I would advocate:

    1. Rationalising the TV line up - far too many systems/modules

    2. Drop telephones and MP3 players - maybe licensing market leading technologies as appropriate.

    3. Make the speaker range as accessible as possible to non B&O users.

    4. Sort out the mess around the multimedia systems - the Beosystem 5 is a 'nearly' product but doesn't offer sufficient advantage over ATV etc.

     

    One final thought.....I've seen a few posters advocating Apple B&O - why on earth would they want to do that? 

     

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Pestria, 

    Some good points, but a bit off base on a few items. 

    1. Lifestyle is key. Brands like Apple, Bang & Olufsen, Ralph Lauren, etc. keep a grasp on their scope by planning the "lifestyle." This term is often misinterpreted as market-speak by outsiders, but is actually a relatively technical term for how development is guided and technologies adapted into concepts. The application of technologies is something that is always wildly out of hand in many Asian technology companies as they focus primarily on the fresh and the novel. We have to consider the application of these technologies in terms of a long-lasting products and satisfying experiences. 

    2. It's a bit simplistic to think that we or any other very high-end company is marketing to footballers and lottery winners. We are, however, marketing to the genuinely wealthy and to be a true client one must be of certain means. That's not to say there aren't plenty of opportunities for ownership at a variety of price-points, but our core concept is playing to a very affluent clientele and their unique needs and demands. 

    3. I think it's generally the "fans" who misunderstand who the client truly is. The vast majority of opinions expressed on these types of forums (not just BeoWorld and its above-average denizens) represent the perspective of the fan and not usually the core client. Obviously the majority of people on these sites may own B&O kit, but their needs and desires represent a very small portion of the client base. Our clients prefer stability over novelty and are generally not concerned with pricing to the extent that a reading of these forums would lead you to believe. Demands for wireless items, iPhone apps, etc. don't figure into our core client's needs, whereas things like video matrixing, integration and control of home automation systems, and overall customer support figure highly.

    4. As for a few of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by making the speaker range more accessible. You can use any of our speakers with third party systems with a few cheap adaptors at most. If you mean price... well, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

    5. And I'd take another look at the BeoSound 5. The AppleTV represents more user frustration and lack of capability than almost any other media center. To borrow a phrase, "the juice isn't worth the squeeze." For multiple users it's an impossibility, it can't hold a serious media collection without needing to stream (which requires a switched-on computer and grinds network speed to a crawl) and also requires an actual TV in the room. Add to that the fact that blind navigation is essentially impossible and you've got a product that's perfect for a college dorm room, but doesn't stand a chance in a demanding client's home.

     

    Overall, though I think you're spot on with the need to focus on user interface, upgrade paths, etc. 

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 01-16-2010 6:08 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hi Andreas (bayerische),

    This risks wandering off the thread but I respond to your question. I assume you use the Rolex avatar because you admire the product or company. They - like B&O - are premium priced but some people are prepared to pay for that. Others aren't. That does not mean that Rolex has its pricing wrong. Same goes for B&O.

    Have a good weekend.

  • 01-16-2010 6:51 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hardwriter:

    Hi Andreas (bayerische),

    This risks wandering off the thread but I respond to your question. I assume you use the Rolex avatar because you admire the product or company. They - like B&O - are premium priced but some people are prepared to pay for that. Others aren't. That does not mean that Rolex has its pricing wrong. Same goes for B&O.

    Have a good weekend.

    Rolex does not fill it's innards with components (except the mainspring on older models, nivarex) from cheap manufacturers such as Casio, Timex, Swatch etc... I'm pretty sure the Rolex customer base would not swallow Rolex to use a ETA or Valjoux movement. (B&O does this)

    Beo uses rather non fancy parts, except for some trim, with TV's it's kind of like a Rolex with a 18K case, that's overkill, for sure, but a stainless steel Rolex, can't be compared to B&O, and when you think of it neither can a 18K gold one, since the innards is a genuine in house made movement. B&O uses parts from all over the world, and most parts arrives at B&O ready for "plug-in". At Rolex you need to be a master watch maker, using your years and years of training and knowledge to put the watch together.

    I'm not sure you have ever owned a Rolex, but I highly recommend it, at the price they are offered they are superb, if you haven't already put one on your wrist, I'm hard to believe it will leave there. Laughing

    I wish you a good weekend too, as I kinda understand what your point is, but still I can't swallow it without some debate, as I think you are wrong regarding Rolex. Audi... now there's something to argue about... A Skoda in WV clothes??? Big Smile 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 9:22 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Andreas, I'd recommend you pay a visit to the factories in Struer and watch testing, machining, and final assembly. I doubt you'd have the same opinion of what goes into a B&O product. It's a stunning operation with hand craftsmanship that bests any metal-works in the world. And as others who have spent time on "the farm" can attest, you'll be surprised what else we make there! If you're the type of person to admire house made movement, I think you'll look at us with a bit more admiration for what goes into our products. You'll probably also look at some performance car manufacturers with a knowing smile. 

    Considering that all electronics are, to some extent, drawn from the parts bin of the world, the amount of our own design, craftsmanship, and actual fabrication is well beyond any other electronics maker, including the high-end speaker manufacturers who take such pride in their cabinets. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 01-16-2010 9:57 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-05-2009
    • Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
    • Posts 404
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I haven't read the entire thread - it's damn long. I will get there sometime tomorrow afternoon ...

    Anyway, you're right that Lewis (and the people surrounding him) seems to hate computers.  Further, it seems that the upperhand in integration they used to have with  (few(er)) boxes have vanished completely.

    If they took some cluesfrom Apple, or even better, depending on your viewpoint: From Logitech (both with regards to the Squeezebox and their remotes), we would be somewhere. I can't for the life of me see why the BS5 should be wired, and with no less than three wires.

    Further proof that Lewis and co really doesn't like computers is how it's impossible to add your own radiostation urls, and even podcasts are a no-no.

    Such a rigid system, with no means of streaming, unless you want to do it via the analogue wi-fi receivers (!!!) are at least 8 or 10 years behind the curve.

    Sure, it's nice to touch the BS5, but as you say, people don't have stereos as such these days.

    Personally, I have given up on ever buying a BS5 unless some extreme revisions and firmware updates are showing up. I am buying the Avi ADM9.1 active speakers (with a D/A converter on board) and will use a small headless wireless NAS (a Fit-PC2i) to feed those speakers and control thelot with a Squeezebox controller. In practice all I'll see are the speakers (no way around that) and the Controller in my hand. I can't even buy a system close to that from B&O even if money were no object.Most of their stuff will have to either be controlled via a telly or directly  by moving up to it. Yes, again, the BS5 is nice to look at, but really, it's less practical than (ugh!) an iPod touch controlling a headless Mac Mini (and I don't want to own anything Apple (anymore)).

    Telly-wise, well I considered the BV10, but decided against it. I won't pay DKK7000 for a non-glossy screen out of principle. I have decided to buy a cheaper and simpler telly with digital  (audio) out and feed it to my speakers.

     

    The problem I see with B&O these days, except for them being behind the curve, is that it takes so many boxes to have anything play nice with anything else - especially non-B&O stuff. It's so unflexible.

     

    Sure you (Trip) believe that all that B&O are making money off, and SHOULD be making money off, are custom installs, but if that were true, I can't see why they should even have so many stores and such a variety of products. If custom installs is the only place to earn some money, they should do away with even more dealers, and do away with 4/5ths of their product range. However, I think that would kill them here in Denmark, and if so, they'd be completely dead within a year.

    /rant

     

    -----------------

     

    Edit: Nevermind. I just noticed how old this thread was and nothing has really happened since. Sure, the BV10 came out, a tv that spec-wise and integration-wise is trailing behind, but that's basically it.  Damn it, the new platform they want to use across the board better result in some new thinking as well, and not just be a penny-pinching move, thinking they can save themselves alone by saving money .

  • 01-17-2010 5:25 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:

    Andreas, I'd recommend you pay a visit to the factories in Struer and watch testing, machining, and final assembly. I doubt you'd have the same opinion of what goes into a B&O product. It's a stunning operation with hand craftsmanship that bests any metal-works in the world. And as others who have spent time on "the farm" can attest, you'll be surprised what else we make there! If you're the type of person to admire house made movement, I think you'll look at us with a bit more admiration for what goes into our products. You'll probably also look at some performance car manufacturers with a knowing smile. 

    Considering that all electronics are, to some extent, drawn from the parts bin of the world, the amount of our own design, craftsmanship, and actual fabrication is well beyond any other electronics maker, including the high-end speaker manufacturers who take such pride in their cabinets. 

    Trip, I was a bit harsh, I know, and standardized my thoughts too much. I know that the components in most B&O are of very high quality, and I do have admiration for the brand. The products I own are in my opinion as good as they get, Beolab5 - can't praise them enough. Beosound9000 -what a statement, and carries a one of a kind mechanical "movement" that no other player has. Beovision5 -revolutionary design and a true center speaker with brute force when used in surround. Beo5, -excellent and unique in every way, although it lacks the ability to be user programmed and 3rd party control.

    I didn't want to bash B&O, more I wanted to point out that Rolex has very little in common with B&O. 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-17-2010 11:25 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I can only speak for the USA.  People here don't have stereos anymore.  They have and want "home theaters".  The 2 channel HiFi is now a niche market with A/V integration and surround sound being the desired market. 

    Now I agree that B&O should remain true to its values with quality and beauty high on the priority list.  To move units in the US, though, they need to make their products play nice with other companies.  They need to incorporate the industry standards for connections.  Hooking up their speakers or TVs to other companies products is, simply put, a major PITA.  I'd like to see them stay exclusive, but open up their products to only Hi end A/V installers so that more of the USA could experience B&O.  I'm not talking Best Buy or other mass electronics stores, but independent high end A/V installers. 

    To summarize, they need to integrate better with other brands and open up their product outside of the boutiques to other sellers.

    Beolab 5, beolab 3, beolab 4000, beosound 9000

  • 01-17-2010 11:40 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:

    Pestria, 

    Some good points, but a bit off base on a few items. 

    1. Lifestyle is key. Brands like Apple, Bang & Olufsen, Ralph Lauren, etc. keep a grasp on their scope by planning the "lifestyle." This term is often misinterpreted as market-speak by outsiders, but is actually a relatively technical term for how development is guided and technologies adapted into concepts. The application of technologies is something that is always wildly out of hand in many Asian technology companies as they focus primarily on the fresh and the novel. We have to consider the application of these technologies in terms of a long-lasting products and satisfying experiences. 

    2. It's a bit simplistic to think that we or any other very high-end company is marketing to footballers and lottery winners. We are, however, marketing to the genuinely wealthy and to be a true client one must be of certain means. That's not to say there aren't plenty of opportunities for ownership at a variety of price-points, but our core concept is playing to a very affluent clientele and their unique needs and demands. 

    3. I think it's generally the "fans" who misunderstand who the client truly is. The vast majority of opinions expressed on these types of forums (not just BeoWorld and its above-average denizens) represent the perspective of the fan and not usually the core client. Obviously the majority of people on these sites may own B&O kit, but their needs and desires represent a very small portion of the client base. Our clients prefer stability over novelty and are generally not concerned with pricing to the extent that a reading of these forums would lead you to believe. Demands for wireless items, iPhone apps, etc. don't figure into our core client's needs, whereas things like video matrixing, integration and control of home automation systems, and overall customer support figure highly.

    4. As for a few of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by making the speaker range more accessible. You can use any of our speakers with third party systems with a few cheap adaptors at most. If you mean price... well, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

    5. And I'd take another look at the BeoSound 5. The AppleTV represents more user frustration and lack of capability than almost any other media center. To borrow a phrase, "the juice isn't worth the squeeze." For multiple users it's an impossibility, it can't hold a serious media collection without needing to stream (which requires a switched-on computer and grinds network speed to a crawl) and also requires an actual TV in the room. Add to that the fact that blind navigation is essentially impossible and you've got a product that's perfect for a college dorm room, but doesn't stand a chance in a demanding client's home.

     

    Overall, though I think you're spot on with the need to focus on user interface, upgrade paths, etc. 

     

    Trip, first of all, I'm glad we more or less both agree on what basically the next beo remote should be capable of as mentioned earlier in this thread. 

    1. Yes B&O is, as you mention, definitely a lifestyle product.

    2. Sorry but right now B&O is catering only to a very wealthy clientele and with products like BV9 and BV7, which are extremely expensive when bought new. These products are slowly killing B&O. No company can afford the continuous investment in new products with such a small client base unless you double the prices of these product today in order to cover that expense.
    I would love to buy a Beovision but due to unavailability of a 'decent' priced B&O tv (in North America), I had to resort to buying elsewhere.
    Hope that at one point in time the BV8-40 or BV10 will be available in North America as both (based on the european prices) are within my budget.
    I am glad that B&O finally is recognizing the fact they're missing out on a big market share and making an effort on providing a better value price level for some of its newer products. Do not forget a lot of those now 'small' clients, will have no second thoughts upgrading to extra or more expensive equipment later on in their lives and will provide a solid client base in the future. Basic economics and planning for the future ....

     The beo5 remote and beolabs are excellent value for example.

    3. LOL, yes but those 'fans' are necessary to push a now stagnant company to innovate and produce new items in order to bring our beloved company to new heights. B&O can reinvent itself as the high end electronics innovator it once was, but they will loose the battle by not being open to new ideas .....Even your client base will have more and better options available the longer it takes B&O to catch up. 
    A lot more people have been growing up with tech and are coming to an age they have the money available to invest in the product that can provide the functionality they want. 

    4. I tried the apple tv, but decided for the mac mini with plex instead. I do agree it takes some doing and time to set it up properly and would love to have a B&O solution that is equally capable and performant and with a real nice interface (I run the alaska skin for plex which is very nice)....sadly B&O is nowhere near marketing anything like it, soon..... Again another loss of market share....

     

  • 01-17-2010 2:22 PM In reply to

    • John
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on 09-20-2009
    • BRISTOL UK
    • Posts 62
    • Silver Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Wow! what a lot to think about, it is hard to know where to start so all I can do is make a few observation.

    If we are considering the survival of B&O it is first important to decide what B&O means. For me it is a company that produces high quality crafted goods, aesthetically designed and of good technical performance, the Beolit range illustrated this very well but this may no longer be relevant.

     Maybe the whole client base has changed and the company should evolve to meet this change. If B&O succeeds in this is it still the same company? It clearly is to the owners but do the clients see it this way? 

    It would certainly not be the same company that attracted me in the first place, with stylish high quality radio reproducers. It has already moved away from the Beolit  and Beomaster sets that I remember to something different. They no longer think in terms a simple quality radio but have beeen carried on the evolutionary flow into a very different field.Software is now the essence. Craftmanship that is obvious and tangible to the owner plays a smaller part. There are people who want this quality and design and consider it as a piece of sculpture as well as a functional item.

    With this in mind it seems to me that the first point should be a competent marketing study based on a niche market. This should consider what the customers need and how this interacts with what they want, not necessarily the same things. This should be viewed in the light of the company's capabilities.

    There have also been considerations about "Made in Denmark". As an outsider, I think this can only have relevance to keeping a skill base in the country but not inherently to the quality of the product. If the out-sourced items meet the specifications with no reservations then as a user of the final item I don't mind. However it is not easy to specify the details of fine craftsmanship, so there is often an attitude by manufacturers that " it does the job and is cheaper so we will accept it".

    The craftsmanship of some of the ancient Jade carvings from the Orient is incredible, so the quality of workmanship is available elsewhere. For a more recent illustration, I have owned and used Contax cameras and also a Kiev produced by Russia. For producing pictures I found it difficult to choose which was better. However the physical experrience of handling the cameras left no doubt that the original camera was much more satisfying. It is not obvious though that this can also be acheived at the low price so out-sourcing is not so simple.

    I regret my contribution is a bit disjointed and rambling. However the possibility that financial constraints might cause the decline of a company I respect saddens me and it has helped me to clear my thoughts a bit.

     

  • 01-17-2010 3:43 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Andreas,

    You were not too stong in your comments and I understand why you feel a Rolex watch is worth the money. I understand your agument but for me a Rolex is meaningless. I don't want an a work of art on my wrist - I just want to tell the time.

    But I understand why others - including you - feel differently. So for me, B&O equipment is pretty good. Not brilliant, but pretty good and I think it is worth the money to those that appreciate that a TV/loudspeaker is more than its component parts. I know this makes no sense, but that's the point with "luxury" goods. If it was not, everyone would buy the  cheapest from Walmart."

    This thread was started by Trip. His most recent post included this point:

    "I think it's generally the "fans" who misunderstand who the client truly is. The vast majority of opinions expressed on these types of forums (not just BeoWorld and its above-average denizens) represent the perspective of the fan and not usually the core client. Obviously the majority of people on these sites may own B&O kit, but their needs and desires represent a very small portion of the client base..."

    I think he has exactly the right answer. Like it or not, the people that keep B&O - and I suggest Rolex - in business don't care for our arguments and opinions. They don't care about the latest technologies. They want are buying a brand. In the case of Rolex its the year's of tradition. For B&O its the delivery of a system that works when they press the button and the knowledge you are buying something "different".

    I - and it suspect you - are not one of those customers. But we should not think that we are typical.

     

  • 01-17-2010 5:13 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hardwriter:

    Andreas,

    You were not too stong in your comments and I understand why you feel a Rolex watch is worth the money. I understand your agument but for me a Rolex is meaningless. I don't want an a work of art on my wrist - I just want to tell the time.

    This makes no sense to me....

    What do you want? Rolex consisting of "angel dust" or "magic" inside?! If an in-house made movement, and a casing made in-house of a highly specialized grade of steel (904L),  at a price of roughly 4000 euro and the movement being COSC grade and certified is not enough and is a "not too strong comment", what should Rolex put out? 

    A rebranded Panasonic 50" panel with a upgraded videoprocessor and a fancy case for 23.000 euro is hardly comparable to Rolex. I can't get a grip on why you pulled Rolex into this discussion, except for the thrill of getting an argument. 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-17-2010 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Andreas,

    No, not to start an argument. Just to point out that everyone has a different perspective on value.

    Chris

  • 01-17-2010 9:25 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    dilznik:

    This is... um... this is just crazy.  So you're saying B&O *needs* to be expensive?  They shouldn't worry about increasing consumer base and profit margins?  They should just, you know, be expensive?  Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.

    So do you think everything is just fine, all their products are fine, the price/quality ratio is fine, the company is on the right track, that sort of thing?

    You should be CEO of B&O. SO LET'S see WHAT YOU CAN DO?? RUIN THE WHOLE LONG HISTORY AND FAME OF B&O by cheap product, low quality product, just like chinese product? hahahahahahahahahahahahahah.

    Why can another audio firm sale a turntable with price $50.000, hiend speaker system 80.000 - $1.000.000, .... Do they need the production in China and third country, to cut cost? and how large of their customer is?

  • 01-17-2010 10:21 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Hardwriter:

    This thread was started by Trip. His most recent post included this point:

    "I think it's generally the "fans" who misunderstand who the client truly is. The vast majority of opinions expressed on these types of forums (not just BeoWorld and its above-average denizens) represent the perspective of the fan and not usually the core client. Obviously the majority of people on these sites may own B&O kit, but their needs and desires represent a very small portion of the client base..."

    I think he has exactly the right answer. Like it or not, the people that keep B&O - and I suggest Rolex - in business don't care for our arguments and opinions. They don't care about the latest technologies. They want are buying a brand. In the case of Rolex its the year's of tradition. For B&O its the delivery of a system that works when they press the button and the knowledge you are buying something "different".

    I - and it suspect you - are not one of those customers. But we should not think that we are typical.

    Hardwriter, 

    Good to see that someone takes this comment seriously and doesn't take offense at it. It seems that there are implications of "classism" in points like these, but none are intended. It's not a value judgement, just my assessment as a long standing shop owner. I certainly meet many clients with points of view similar to the majority expressed here, but their budgets are generally modest (between $2k - $7k) and require a disproportionate amount of "management" per dollar spent versus the core clientele whose projects range from around $35k to well into the hundreds of thousands. As a shop owner, if I relied on increasing the volume of "fans," I would have to increase my staff and assume overhead and obliterate my margins in project management. Likewise my cost of origination would be significantly higher (i.e. the effort expended on signing a $7k deals isn't much less than a $100k deal, yet I'd have to invest it about 15 times more in originating the same gross turnover).

    So I'm not just fussing, but when I read things like BeoVision 7s & 9s and their high prices are slowly killing us, I can't take it seriously. It has no factual basis and is more or less the opposite of the actual case. BeoVision 7s move briskly and make large scale projects incredibly simple for both me and my clients.

    You have to understand, though, that since our shops are largely independently owned franchises, the corporate entity has very little control over the caliber of the dealer. Their best chance at increasing turnover is to release a lower priced, somewhat compromised products to attract the top-end of retail shoppers. Not a terrible strategy, but a lot more turnover could be generated by bringing all dealers up to spec with better training and increased product offerings from complimentary 3rd parties. Shops that have learned to insinuate themselves into the design/architect community and pursue "projects" rather than "sales" have found success even in lean times. Those dealers that still chase the "sale" have found clients less willing to part with their money and expectations generally out of line with the state of technology. That's not to say there's no such thing as a talented salesperson who doesn't understand Lutron and other home systems, it's just to say that person is less and less relevant in the industry as a whole. 

    If it's your bottom line, you have to look at it this way. Otherwise you're just shouting into the void.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 01-18-2010 2:06 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Giang Nguyen:

    You should be CEO of B&O. SO LET'S see WHAT YOU CAN DO?? RUIN THE WHOLE LONG HISTORY AND FAME OF B&O by cheap product, low quality product, just like chinese product? hahahahahahahahahahahahahah.

    Why can another audio firm sale a turntable with price $50.000, hiend speaker system 80.000 - $1.000.000, .... Do they need the production in China and third country, to cut cost? and how large of their customer is?

    You didn't answer my questions.  Is everything fine with B&O in your opinion?

  • 01-18-2010 2:25 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:
    I certainly meet many clients with points of view similar to the majority expressed here, but their budgets are generally modest (between $2k - $7k) and require a disproportionate amount of "management" per dollar spent versus the core clientele whose projects range from around $35k to well into the hundreds of thousands.

    The modest budgeted people are probably less likely to throw money at a problem.  Just saying...

     

    As a shop owner, if I relied on increasing the volume of "fans," I would have to increase my staff and assume overhead and obliterate my margins in project management. Likewise my cost of origination would be significantly higher (i.e. the effort expended on signing a $7k deals isn't much less than a $100k deal, yet I'd have to invest it about 15 times more in originating the same gross turnover).

    This wouldn't, however, be the case if there was a B&O online channel as well as other retail channels selling that "beginners" product.  You can't go into Best Buy and get a Mac Pro or an X-Serve.  But you can get them on Apple's site or at an Apple store.  You can, however, get all the iPods and iMacs you want down at Best Buy.  The Mac Pro is still a phenomenal computer, with its quality in no way undermined by the fact that a no armed homeless person could afford an iPod Shuffle.

    If there were some entry level products that people might want, maybe some decent computer speakers for $500, a home programmable Beo5 that worked with everything, stuff like that, which people could buy elsewhere (like the A8's in the Apple Stores... how many of those do they sell?) that would help the company's bottom line then people could still goto the proper stores for the "real" kit and B&O would make more money, which means more R&D, which means more quality products.  Build the Beo5 in Korea, build the BL5 in DK.

    The arguments I've seen here about exclusivity and the product needs to remain expensive and built in DK (thus accomplishing nothing but cutting into profit margins as proven by that other thread listing the products made in DK... if you can't tell then what's the point?) are both hollow and shallow.  The sort of arguments made by people who would by a car or a guitar based on how it looks.  And we all know what kinds of people those are.

    In the end B&O is a company that worries about profits and not going out of business like every other company.

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