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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-20-2010 8:55 AM by Flappo The Grate. 181 replies.
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  • 12-21-2008 4:23 PM In reply to

    • benjnz
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Auckland NZ
    • Posts 392
    • Gold Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Puncher:
    Acrylic is, in fact, cheap plastic.

     

    But produce it in white and it becomes expensive when you sell it Stick out tongue

  • 12-21-2008 7:06 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    What if BeoWorld members just showed up in Struer ready to work? What could go wrong? 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-21-2008 7:09 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Has anybody tried to connect OEM LCD's to the Beosystem 3 ?

    For the Beosystem 3, I would wish a better videoprocessing. Two months ago I was lucky to be one of the first testers of Leica 's new HD Videobeamer for a few days at home. I was surprised to see a loss of quality when I connected the Leica beamer to the Beosystem 3 (Source Apple TV) compared to a direct connection with a MacBook Pro.

     

     

  • 12-21-2008 7:21 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    This may sound a but odd, but not everyone's definition of "quality" is the same. The BeoSystem 3's video processing is set to produce the most organic image possible. Very often this means that the image will be less "intense" in color and contrast than what you would see on a traditional LCD. This is clearly a matter of personal taste, but it's the same idea of fidelity that is applied to loudspeakers. What we often perceive as "clarity" or "detail" is due to clumsy fidelity, just as music sound shrill or tinney may sound more "vibrant," but ultimately less "true."

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-21-2008 11:13 PM In reply to

    • Russ
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    • Joined on 05-07-2007
    • Washington, DC USA
    • Posts 641
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Also let me add that many projectors have their own on-board video processors; perhaps including the Leica.  The issue at hand in telling the BS-3 wether you are using a Sim2 or a Samsung, at the moment, is that the BS-3 can process in such a way as to compliment what it knows the  projector is going to do.  Obviously with an unknown projector, the results can't be predicted or planned for.

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-21-2008 11:15 PM In reply to

    • Russ
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    • Joined on 05-07-2007
    • Washington, DC USA
    • Posts 641
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    benjnz:

    Puncher:
    Acrylic is, in fact, cheap plastic.

    But produce it in white and it becomes expensive when you sell it Stick out tongue

     Acrylic brings its own issues as well.  Ask Apple about the Mac 'Cube". 
     

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 12-21-2008 11:22 PM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:
    What if BeoWorld members just showed up in Struer ready to work? What could go wrong? 
    Members such as the fella who suggests BL5's should be carbon fiber? LOL

     

    TripEnglish:

    This may sound a but odd, but not everyone's definition of "quality" is the same. The BeoSystem 3's video processing is set to produce the most organic image possible. Very often this means that the image will be less "intense" in color and contrast than what you would see on a traditional LCD. This is clearly a matter of personal taste, but it's the same idea of fidelity that is applied to loudspeakers. What we often perceive as "clarity" or "detail" is due to clumsy fidelity, just as music sound shrill or tinney may sound more "vibrant," but ultimately less "true."

    I've heard a dealer say this here in oz, and also other members online. It's so true. 

     

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 12-21-2008 11:45 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    You know, RussR, your new avatar is bound to throw people off the trail. No one would be able to trace our location to the US, as the little information of our personal lives indicates that we once occupied the same homeless shelter. The A5 is a dead giveaway that we're western European vagabonds. The American dole would barely get you a Mustang!

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-22-2008 12:30 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    In regards to the stripped down Beosystem 3. 

    Few years back, I was hoping for something like that.  However that was more driven out of the fact that in the US the product portfolio was reduced to BV4 and BV5 which were way out of my range.

    I always felt that in Europe the need for this is not there since they have TVs covering all sizes and multiple price points. I.e. I would have looked at Beovision 6 26" with surround or the BV 7 32".

     I remember that some time back when Loewe was posting stellar results that some Analyst commented saying their strategy is right offering so many different models and then screen variations.

    So there should be a Beocenter 6 up to 40", a BV9 in 40 and 32 and so on. I do not know how expensive these screen variations are but dont think it is that much since Loewe cnn pull this off.

    So offer all screens everywhere and not just Europe, keep them reasonable up to date and do plenty of size variations.

     

    JK 

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 12-22-2008 2:01 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    benjnz:

    Puncher:
    Acrylic is, in fact, cheap plastic.

     

    But produce it in white and it becomes expensive when you sell it Stick out tongue

     Bulletproof Acrylic isn't the same as normal acrylic. I think it might be perspex which is in the family of acrylic, and is used to make artsy jewellery. Then again even acrylic is more pricey than ABS plastic. It is a harder material to handle. 

  • 12-22-2008 2:17 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:

    Carbon Fiber? Good god. I resign from this argument. 

    I would like to continue the thread for a few more pages and hear from a few more people on their thoughts on my suggestions as well as their own suggestions. I think there is a lot to offer from this group and would love someone in the Danish hinterlands to read something more than to simply make it cheaper. 

    (And by the way, wonderful, as far as bulletproof acrylic goes. Anytime you want to stand behind a sheet of acrylic and have me fire a bullet through it, I'm at your beck and call.) 

    Make fun! B&O doesn't have workmanship to offer, the least it can do is to use superior/high-tech materials ie. resin, ceramic, perspex, carbon fiber, fiber glass....

    Even resin was used in Apple's now discontinued hifi. B&O is mass produced, it should stop pretending that it is a boutique brand when it can't offer the level of workmanship that boutique brands offer.  

  • 12-22-2008 4:11 AM In reply to

    • Ignace
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-30-2007
    • Moderator - NL
    • Posts 2,749
    • Founder

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Make fun! B&O doesn't have workmanship to offer, the least it can do is to use superior/high-tech materials ie. resin, ceramic, perspex, carbon fiber, fiber glass....

    Even resin was used in Apple's now discontinued hifi. B&O is mass produced, it should stop pretending that it is a boutique brand when it can't offer the level of workmanship that boutique brands offer.  

    What about the many years of experience with wood, glass and metal.

     

     

  • 12-22-2008 5:22 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    There is a pecking order in av quality in the high street  b+o are at the top with pioneer /apple next step down but it will always come down to price b+o are just to much to justify at present even when a bv7 looks so good in a showroom setting  its just to much money to pay for style look at how wonderful the bv1 and 3 looked and they were priced right the bv8 needs a glass screen to appeal more a pioneer lcd 32 inch is 1k plus sound 1.4 k it appeals to peoples logic more

  • 12-22-2008 8:58 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    One cannot consider a loudspeaker in isolation from it's accompanying amplifier.

    The longstanding valves versus solid state debate?

    Which gives a "truer" sound?

    A given speaker can sound great with one and inferior with the other.

    As to how to save Bang & Olufsen--is there a magic answer?

    They are producing high cost equipment for a niche market in a global credit crunch which may last anywhere from 12-24 months.

    Will that market segment remain unaffected ,and continue to spend on high ticket items?

  • 12-22-2008 2:07 PM In reply to

    • TWG
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Germany
    • Posts 950
    • Gold Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    How to save them:


    "Made in Denmark"

    = back to their roots for which B&O is loved and accepted. "Made in Czech" is simply crap ... I don't pay the high prices for equipment made in Czech! This is just fooling the customer for higher profits! Have a look at BOSE with its new and CHEAP made in china look and feel. Pay money for it? NOT in this life!


    Stand alone:

    Audio-Systems, AV-Systems, TVs, Speakers.

    - Entry Level
    - Mid Range
    - High End
    - computerized (like Beomedia 5, Beosound 5)

    Build this stuff in Denmark

    ... like all the good things before (Avant ...), don't just advertise quality: BUILD the quality.
    Focus on link-technology upgrade to use future-technologies in your B&O setup.
    Don't tell me about production cost reducing (Czech, China), it's just the profit margin, nothing more!

     

     

  • 12-22-2008 2:12 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I agree. Making an expensive product cheap doesn't make any sense. If it can't be built where it should be built, then leave the cost what it is. What I think we're all looking for is not a top tier product with a deflated price, but a genuine well-considered middle range. 

    If we truly develop these products, why bother with building outside Struer? 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-22-2008 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    A very interesting post here. I've been following up for the past day or so, waiting for some more opinions before I expressed my own.

    On the whole I agree with most comments here and would thoroughly support Trip's idea of having two different levels of spec for the BeoSystem 3, with the more expensive one being specialised for home cinema. I also believe BeoSystem 3 should be especially designed for the exact spec of BV7, BV9 and BV4, so the picture and sound is perfect in each case.

    In terms of B&O's pricing, contrary to most I don't want B&O to become cheaper. The BeoLabs are all excellent value in my opinion, the BeoVisions and BeoSounds less so, but I tend to be a little more ambitious than immediately screaming that the current range of BeoVisions and BeoSounds are too expensive for what they are. I believe B&O could be doing a little bit more in these two departments to further improve the specs of the BeoVisions and offer a bit more intelligence to the BeoSounds.

    How great the BeoSound 5 would be if it could be the source for all our digital music, video and photos, with the possibility of a head unit in each (or some) link room(s). This is the excitement that I know B&O can bring sometimes.

    BeoSound 3200, still a beautiful design and I don't mock B&O for keeping it, but why such a lazy effort of modernising the technology? Get a small LCD in there, dare I mention a touch screen ... so browsing the hard drive is actually easy and a pleasure rather than a frustrating chore as it is now. A USB at the back to quickly copy the playlist you have made on your computer using BeoPlayer (if B&O insist) or otherwise iTunes.

    Beo5 can be a brilliant product, but should not be seen as a replacement of Beo4 and must be setup correctly, offering every tiny function and option you desire. Some who criticize it are not fully aware of the capabilities of the device, but I equally respect those who find Beo4 much simpler and more immediate to use. The flaw in the product is that the user is not given access to the software! People are too busy to drop by their local dealer on a regular basis, to move this button here, cancel that one and add a Disney Channel logo. I am sure the Beo4 could regain some of the wow factor it had during the 90s if it was entirely backlit and had an LCD which allowed you to navigate through just a few simple factory set menus, just to tidy up the LIST button.

    Generally, things aren't at all bad. B&O continue to come up with some fantastic products, but the average BeoWorlder knows only too well that they could be doing that little bit more. By the end of the year, the new CEO should have set a firm position and vision for the company. I just hope this includes a little bit more work, perfection and magic from the very talented technical and design team.

  • 12-22-2008 5:38 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Here's an interesting angle, not often discussed directly. A lot of us miss Jacob Jensen for one reason or another. He's almost completely responsible for the type of company we are today. David Lewis, on the other hand, while completely familiar to us, never seemed to hold the same public post in the company that Jacob did. 

    I wonder if whomever turns out to be the driving designer shouldn't play a greater roll in the communication of their ideas. I find that, as with anything, knowing the "chef" and their inspiration, their point of view, etc. can allow me to experience a product in a very different way. 

    Of course, this requires the chief designer to be somewhat charismatic. Possibly too much to hope for! 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-22-2008 5:52 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TWG:

    = back to their roots for which B&O is loved and accepted. "Made in Czech" is simply crap ...

    Armani Collezioni - the brand that sits in the top-end of the Armani collection - now produce clothes in China, yet they charge premium dollar for their products.

    I bought a $500 top the other day to get home and find it says 'Made in China' on the label. Asked at the store and their answer was that the Armani rep says that anything with silk in the cloth costs so much to produce in Italy, they can't get their regular markup and keep their prices constant.

    However, the same store also said that Armani are intending to reduce their prices for 2009, across the range.

  • 12-22-2008 5:57 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    In all honesty, I don't personally are where a product is made most of the time. As time goes by, country of origin is less an indicator of final product. These days it's difficult to get a complex product that isn't partially manufactured elsewhere, so it also seems too big a chore to worry about.

    It does, however, seem to be an issue for many of my customers and so it is, by default, and issue for me. If there are people willing to pay a premium for manufacturing in DK, then it's a demand we should be prepared to meet. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-22-2008 6:21 PM In reply to

    • TWG
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Germany
    • Posts 950
    • Gold Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:

    It does, however, seem to be an issue for many of my customers and so it is, by default, and issue for me. If there are people willing to pay a premium for manufacturing in DK, then it's a demand we should be prepared to meet. 



    Armani-Jacket made in China says clearly: "Customer, thank you for beeing so dumb to give us your money for this!"


    Imagine the following:

    - Aston Martin    NOT    "Made in England"
    - Porsche 911    NOT    "Made in Germany"
    - Vertu    (mobile phone)   "NOT" (hand)Made in England (London)
    - Miele    (washing machines etc.)    "NOT" "Made in Germany"

    Would you buy one of those pieces anymore? NO!!! I NEVER would! And they KNOW that their customers demand this location of manufacturing.

    I don't pay the money just for the image of a company. If I walk into a Bang & Olufsen store I love to pay for the quality product made in their home country and this is definetely a BIG ISSUE for me as a customer. I demand the old quality values of the Bang & Olufsen products telling you decent: "I was made in Denmark" and you get what you pay for.

    "Made in China", "Made in Czech"? Ok, guys, than sell your stuff to another - sorry - dumb ***.

    I support companies producing in their origin and/or home country and many companies understood that this is important for their customers, their product quality AND finaly their image!

    I'm living in Germany and whe needed a DVB-T receiver in our new flat. I informed myself, read reviews etc.
    I decided to buy a receiver from "Technisat". It had (and still has) the best reviews, best signal quality, easy operation and good build quality.
    Technisat is a german company and produces(!) in Germany.
    The device costs 100% more than some of the cheap systems but I was happy to pay the price to support a company manufacturing in its home country!
    Last year we finaly decided to get a TV for our bedroom (I hate it but I did it for my woman) and I think you know from which company I bought a DVB-T receiver again? Yes, Technisat.


    Remember the horror stories of exploding notebook battery cells all around the world?
    This was  a great example of the "Made in China" quality and I think this did great damage to the company Sony.

    They had a new production process for the (dangerous) LiOn-Batteries that managed to get more power capacity in the same battery-housing. Till this time it was great success but then they made a big mistake:
    They moved this new manufacturing process to China and we all know how good those batteries where ...
    As Steve  Jobs from Apple would say: "Boom, there it goes!" ;-)

    I hope I don't bore you all too much, but I think it's funny enough to read for you because of my english Wink



  • 12-22-2008 6:43 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I am sorry but you are totally wrong. Whether it is made in Denmark, China or elsewhere, the only thing that matters is the quality. It is not the case that products made in China or the Czech Republic are of inferior quality, in fact very often the factories producing these goods are the newest and most advanced and produce the highest quality products. Apple produce their computers in China - what they say is "designed in California"  - which is the important thing as far as Jobs is concerned. Manufacturers only produce outside their home country for two reasons - cheaper labour or better quality, these are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
  • 12-22-2008 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I think I see the point more when it's your country the work is performed in. I could see an American seeking out items made here in America just as a German seeking out items made in Germany. But I've owned some great things that were made in China and some total crap from Europe, so if I'm not supporting my own country's economy, I really don't have a dog in the fight. 

    I can tell, though, that country of origin is a big sticking point and this is also reflected in my stores. Many of the issues raised on here do not always translate to what I see in real life, but this one does.  

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-22-2008 6:56 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I understand that a B&O product will always be perceived of better value if produced in Denmark given that it is of superior quality and the price is correct. This is the desirable situation. It is however wrong to suggest that just because a product is produced in the Czech Republic or China that it must be somehow inferior. If B&O can produce the right product at the right price in Struer then good, if not then alternatives must be sought as long as they do not damage the brand.
  • 12-22-2008 11:00 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    OK. I'll rant on about a few issues. Most of them have been aired before, others not. Please tolerate if you will.

    B&O by definition, history or niche is amongst other things about functional beautiful AV gear. It's products all share a physical presence that elevates them into a position (brand coolness) envied by many other manufacturers. Therefore by this virtue it cannot become like Apple. It cannot survive on virtual electronic products with PC-only interfaces. It has to make devices in which a human can joyously (and yes, old-fashioned) interact with it as part of the overall experience. Mechanics, glass, aluminium and light.

    To that end and despite the criticisms posted here often on this forum, the BS5 as a concept is spot on. It takes electronic ether and makes it mechanical. B&O are from my point a view about to launch this product which like many before it, fulfils a need to be placed on a pedestal and viewed for what it is - art. It commands respect and a place within the home. It should never have been intended to be a remote in which it casually sits on the coffee table next to the ashtray, empty beer cans and pizza boxes full of greasy fingerprints on its touch screen etc.... Technically I'm sure it could have been made that way but it's not. Thank God!

    Therefore Beosound's should continue to exist as statement to you, your home and your lifestyle. Period. Display and show-off your investment in a prominent part of your favourite room. That is in-part what B&O is about. Otherwise why is it different?

    There is a problem in product integration - and I don't mean Masterlink. (In fact that is one of the relic problems). There is also a problem with product strategy. For instance, the BC2 with CD, DVD and Radio but with no DTS. That historically has disadvantaged those wishing not to go down the B&O TV route. As an alternative, you could buy a BV6 or 8 (too smaller screen) or a BV4 (too big or too expensive) or a BV7 which has until recently its own DVD anyway - so why bother? This needs to be rationalised.

    TV panels are commodities. So are standalone DVD and HDD players. The latter two have already been canned as standalone products by B&O. By stopping production of TV's, B&O is basically saying "we can't compete....and we are relegating ourselves to that of the cottage HiFi league". They will then lose-out on the integrated market in which they were once gods (and which IS today's vogue). Lowering the price is not going to work either. Lower them enough and other larger companies will either continue the unsustainable price-cutting as to make no difference or they could actually buy B&O out for loose change as a threat. Staying in the niche they are, they remain a non-threat to the mass-market manufacturers and therefore likely to be left alone.

    So what is the solution? Well I think the key products are already there.

    • Beovision 9
    • Beovision 8
    • Beovision 7 - 40 (options of No drive/DVD/BR)
    • Beosound 5
    • Beomaster 5
    • Beosound 4
    • Beocenter 2 (options of DVD/Audio only or BR)

    What is missing is the ability to integrate them effectively as a group of one-off products into a unified system. Masterlink is simply a shielded cable system to transmit remote control around the house. For too long, it has been used to compensate for the lack of real system integration in B&O products.

    Now what if with the help of a few more little black Beomedia 1/Beomaster type boxes (preferably tarted-up) were introduced to the product range?

    • A Master Control PC (MCPC) with DTS capability.
    • A Beocenter 2 Master Unit to PC converter?
    • Updated Beosound 4 with usb upgrade
    • A Cat5e patch box.

    TV's remain an integrated TV/DTS/Tuner/speaker/optional drive package and the basis of a standalone Video Master system. The customer can start cheap (BV7 without an optical drive). Add Beolab loudspeakers and B&O optics later.

    The Audio Master could be essentially a BS5, BC2 or an updated BS4 connected to a new MCPC either through converters, patch box or direct connection. The MCPC is the controller for the "system" and as stated before becomes the hub or dashboard for a multitude of other systems. It enables Audio DTS capability and therefore allows the user to get into the B&O TV systems game later. Minimal loss of functionality and a reduction in any repetitive systems combined.

    The MCPC would also be a hub for Audio HDD recording and playback. The DVD/BR recording is fraught with legal implications and just like Region coding with DVD, B&O no matter how much we want, will never go there unless it is open. However, It could enable the BS4 or BC2 to input CD media to a HDD. Likewise, it could partially control digital media through those limited displays. (And like a PC to any TV monitor) as a bridge system.

    Whether buying from scratch or that you have existing equipment in your line-up, the strategy above would a) ensure the customer could buy-in to any level or any combination of A, AV or V with a choice of optical drives and digital storage. b) DTS would be resolved at both ends and would also c) ensure some limited transition of existing equipment until "a brave new world" of new products with new functionalities and fashion comes in to play the next 5 to 10 years and physical media is phased out and standards are agreed.

    The BV4, BV6, BC6, MP3, BS3, BSys3 and Mobiles - Dump the lot and reduce overheads.

    In terms of technology, that is a mute point and one I'm not really an expert on. However, there are issues I can see in current technology that needs to walk before it can run and become part of a B&O product. A few simple examples are:-

    • Streaming high quality video. This is great if you live in a Western capital city but what happens if you live in the backwashes of nowhere were download speeds are still pedestrian? The MCPC would mitigate this somewhere along the line via software.
    • Wireless in the house. Great but as more and more devices become available (and in your neighbours house too), bandwith is going to become restricted. Drop-out frequency is going to become greater not less. OK you say, but what about the BS5? - that is transmitting non-time dependent info (tags) it could have been wireless. Well yes, but I refer for the need and niche that B&O must still retain a function of being Art and Art in a fixed place. Aside, the Ethernet add-on will add more round-the-house function for more substantial setups.
    • Battery life. Just how big can a non-wired device be that is played-with constantly (twiddled with) and still retain decent battery life? 3 hours? 5 maybe? Longer life, bigger batteries and before you know it, you have a bad back carrying your 2-way remote all over the house. To see what I mean, play with a Beo5 for a few hours and keep the back-light on.

    However, these issues are in my view side issues and the complaints received here on this forum are seen as B&O not trying to keep-up with technology. I say there is a lot of technology that is still not worthy of putting in a B&O product but I think a lot of us would feel a whole lot better if we could be assured that our buying decisions irrespective of the path we have chosen will enable all of us to end up at the same ultimate place and to interchange/upgrade effectively without excessive cost.

     

    10%

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